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/lang/ - Language Learning General Anonymous Refugee 04/02/2020 (Thu) 12:46:06 No. 2090
>What tongue(s) are you learning? >Ask questions about your target tongue! >Help people who want to learn a new tongue!
I want to reacquaint myself with Spanish. I always speak it at my job, but I'm horrible at writing it. Any useful Spanish grammar and mechanics books you would recommend, comrades?
Here's some links I stole from the language learning thread on /hobby/ https://mega.nz/#F!x4VG3DRL!lqecF4q2ywojGLE0O8cu4A https://mega.nz/#F!l4FHkD4J!zUFsx5UIIOX7OspNuikSmw I live in South America and currently know English, Spanish, and Portuguese and i'm currently learning Quechua. I'm also studying Mandarin, but it's hard af and something I am keeping on the back burner. >>2092 check the first link I posted
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Mi studadas la internacian lingvon: Esperanto!
I wanna learn German for literature and shit but the grammar's too hard and I haven't found any good books online. Anyone have some resources?
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>>2094 Bruh
>>2101 Wew lad
>>2101 A bruh moment.
>>2090 Any easy to read Catalan comics or something like that?
>>2096 Faiz Anon, can you start a south asia general? Been reading about Bhutto and the socialist movements >Hum Dekhenge
>>2445 Where? In /edu/? Also, if you’d like to learn more about revolutionaries in India and Pakistan, I was reading the book Partition - can it be undone by Lal Khan. Really good book.
>>2322 Not a comic perse, but if you're interested on a magazine with comics you can check out Cavall Fort and El Tatano (both are for children but El Tatano is for smaller children) https://cavallfort.cat/jo-em-quedo-a-casa/ Unfortunately most comics made here are published in spanish, but some of them get catalan translations. Mortadel·lo i Filemó is probably the most famous one. Also there are many mangas translated in Catalan (such as - Bleach - Bola de Drac - Cinturó Negre - Detectiu Conan - Doraemon - Fushigi Yûgi - Ikkyu - Inu Yasha - Kimagure Orange Road - Love Hina - Musculman - Naruto - Sakura - Shin Chan - ) There are also some catalan fansubs https://www.fansubs.cat/ https://manga.fansubs.cat/ and you can also check https://www.animelliure.net/ for catalan translations of anime (fun fact If I remember correctly, One Piece has more episodes translated in catalan than castillian)
>>2449 Nah, in general
Anyone have any easy yiddish books or tutorials? I already listen to many yiddish songs and i’d like to learn a bit of colloquial yiddish
>>2488 Oops, forgot to turn off my vpn
Any materials on how to learn french? >>2488 >yiddish huh, why that choice?
>>2467 >Bola de Drac Hmm, I've heard your dub is much better than the Castilian one. Thanks for the resources and suggestions!
Is there any way to get Pimsleur for free? I want to learn Russian. >>3049 I'm a native speaker, so I don't know a specific resource, but for any language you can start with basics on a youtube tutorial, then get Assimil or something like that. Depends on what your goals are, if it's for conversations you can stick to traditional methods (Assimil, Pimsleur) and talking to strangers once you've mastered the basics. Watch a lot of films, series or listen to music (I can recommend you this channel for leftist news https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT67YOMntJxfRnO_9bXDpvw). If you are more interested by literature/written French, I know everyone starts with Le petit Prince by Saint-Exupéry, which is an international classic so a must read anyway.
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How do you go about expanding your vocabulary? Do you just use the language and hope new words stick or do something specific to learn new words?
>>3059 there's a complete pack on rutracker.
>>3060 Generally I learn just reading something that i like, everyday I open the newspaper, get an article, and get the words that I don't know, write them down in my notepad, do some phrases with them and maybe I'll put them on anki if I am bored You can use methods by association, like comparing a word to another word of a language that you know, but sometimes at least for me it takes too long to be practical
>>2090 I'm trying to teach myself French, and I can't really gain the courage to do it. Does anybody else know this feeling, and if so, how did you beat it?
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Are there any Poles lurking here that would be willing to help me with the difficult endeavor of learning the Polish language? I put my email in the email field, just replace the ! with .
>>3115 intredasting
>>3333 check'd >>3080 >I can't really gain the courage to do it What do you mean by that? Like, would you feel more focused if you had an instructor to help you, or are you afraid of something?
>>2101 i call bullshit, lasalle didn't write like that at all
>>3049 >huh, why that choice? I love klezmer and yiddish music in general and I wanna understand the lyrics. Learning yiddish would also allow me to understand german, which is nice.
Been learning Russian for like 2 months. Not specifically because of the USSR/Lenin or anything politics-related, just due to the niceness of the language and because it's useful in a pretty huge part of the world. Advice to anyone learning a language: use Duolingo, not just the app but the online forum. It's a good starting place where you will find lots of resources for your target language.
>>3080 What do you want to learn French for? Is it for reading history or theory, reading novels, talking with relatives, flirting, going on vacation, watching movies, radicalizing Africa? You have to always keep your goal in mind. For example I'm trying Russian because I love Tarkovsky and post-soviet punk music, and I want to be able to read a bit of Lenin too. I've not gone very far yet bc I'm a lazy piece of shit but one day I'll really work on it.
>>3787 >post-soviet punk music I see that you are a man of culture as well
>>3787 If you're learning Russian, I recently found a channel that catalogues a shitton of Soviet era television. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiVZttFkdEwMi3QXpRqFTzQ/videos
>>2090 i know turkish and english and i really want to learn french or chinese maybe even latin in the future can you even learn like actual latin nowadays?
>>3905 also,is chinese hard to learn?a friend of mine keeps saying it would take me more than 4 years to learn chinese so im kinda scared to even try learning it
>>3906 Mandarin is quite easy tbh, especially the grammar. Tones are easy to learn too, you just need a bit of practice. Writing can be difficult but for me it wasn't as I just doodled them when I was bored. Doodling random chinese words made my hand writing look neater as well. It will take you like a month or so to be able to order food from restaurants, start a basic conversation, write a simple story, etc. I used a few apps and some dictionaries - namely HelloChinese and got atleast an A2 level of proficiency
>>3905 >can you even learn like actual latin nowadays? I mean I learnt it in highschool, both Latin and classical Greek are pretty common here in Belgium if you do the 'general highschool' orientation, isn't it in Turkey? You can definitely find loads of resources
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I should be studying languages but I am too lazy.
>>4183 is there any language that interests you my hungarian friend??
>>3943 >both Latin and classical Greek are pretty common here in Belgium You guys are very lucky, here we only study basic English, and very rarely maybe Spanish but I have never seen a school that teaches it here
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>>4186 Yes, Esperanto.
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>>4203 I keep hearing about this language. Tell me more, pretty please
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>>4205 It's the most widely spoken constructed language. It was invented by a Polish eye doctor called L. L. Zamenhof, who thought a common language could ease ethnic tension in his home town, and hopefully one day lead to world peace. It was designed to be a universal second language, in his ideal world you would learn your native language first and Esperanto only as a second language to help use with people who don't speak your native language. I'm interested in it because it is the only constructed language that is actually used.
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>>4212 Hmm, sounds rather interesting. I was looking more into this and apparently its like a mix of a bunch of different languages together. I've never heard of it before, so I was wondering if maybe this is more of a common thing among Euros? Also do u know anyone who uses it irl? also, please either spoil or censor such lewd behavior! I censored it for you for future use
>>4214 > I've never heard of it before, so I was wondering if maybe this is more of a common thing among Euros? It's more common in Asia, especially China. There's also a service for Esperanto speakers who're visiting another country to live with another Esperantist for free. It's called the 'Pasaporta Servo'.
>>4214 I don't know anyone personally. I just consume the language passively online.
>>4214 I had a civics teacher in like 8th grade from cuba who knew how to speak it. he once invited a priest that knew how to speak it too and the demonstrated a conversation in front of class.
>>4217 Both Cuba and the Vatican does official radio broadcasts in Esperanto: http://www.radiohc.cu/eo http://www.radio-vatikana-esperanto.org/
Just on grammar what is your favorite language?
>>4272 Personally mine is basque, the verbal system is not as hellish as georgian but it is still has a interesting complexity and some interesting stuff that I have never seen, and also the 12 cases and ergativity are really cool
>>4272 Persian
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>>4215 >It's more common in Asia, especially China. Thats interesting. Would've thought it be Europe. I wonder why that is? >>4216 Is there a specific place you like to hang out for Esperanto use? >>4217 that sounds cool! what were you thinking when that happened >>4218 back
>>4281 *wack
>>4281 >I wonder why that is? Around the turn of the 20th Century, Esperanto was incredibly significant in the Internationalist Communist movement. Lots of Chinese and Japanese Communists knew Esperanto, and many works of Communist literature had been translated into Esperanto but not their languages, so it was very good for spreading theory and communication between revolutionaries of different languages. Additionally there were works of Communist literature written in Esperanto to begin with out east, not even in their native languages, but it's not as if that was every work. The Japanese in particular liked Esperanto (and continue to), they liked it so much so that even this one ex-Communist turned Fascist who trying couping the Japanese Imperial government for not being Fascist enough wanted to make Esperanto the sole language of the Co-Prosperity sphere: replacing the languages of the imperially dominated in China and Korea, but also replacing even Japanese as he thought Esperanto to be a superior language. Additionally, the Nazis and European Fascists banned the usage of the language as a tool for its role as a tool of 'International Jewish Bolshevism' or something to that effect I'm sure, and I'm not sure if that's the reason why the language sort of stopped growing in prevalence, but I'm sure it succeeded in repressing it to some degree. Anyhow, its role in Communism's history is likely why its still marginally more popular today in states which identify as being Socialist I suppose.
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>>4332 Absolutely fucking BASED Input Hypothesis posting KRASHENPILLED BrasiliANO (where the fuck did you get a krashen meme lol; did you make it?)
>>4333 Got from /int/, a Canadian anon always posted it on the /lang/ general
>>4334 Well then the Leafoid is Based as well.
>>4332 What's this about?
>>4342 Stephen Krashen is a linguist who's research has yielded the understanding that language is only truly learned, or 'acquired' as he says, through the brain's parsing of input. If when you try to speak another language it is first filtered in your brain, if you need to take the lag-time to translate from your native to the target language, then your brain hasn't truly acquired the language. A language is acquired at least in some capacity when you can formulate thoughts in the target language without having to first formulate the thought in your own native language. And you can only attain this state of having acquired a language whenever your brain has had enough input in the target language. When you learn on Duolingo, you're learning to become literate, you're learning how to read and write, when you've not even become fluent in the target language. People can speak their language perfectly fine without being literate they're whole damn lives, and people in the past certainly learned how to speak other languages without any reading, writing, or even common linguistic ground. Now in the modern era it sucks to be illiterate, so anyone learning should still learn to be literate in their target language, but they should understand that literacy does not necessarily equate to fluency. American language classes teach us nothing but literacy, and we're never exposed to any content of people actually speaking Spanish or French, thus even when burgers actually have language class they still never become fluent. The same sort of thing goes for the Japanese, their classes focus wholly on English fluency but they never absorb any content in English or have someone really speak complete English expressions to them. Now for the Scandies on the other hand, most content does not get localized into their languages because it's not profitable, and their languages are already very close to English, so not only do they have excellent literacy classes, they also grow up constantly exposed to English, and that's why I'd honestly consider them to be native speakers at this point. They actually get the INPUT needed to acquire the English language, and lots of genZ nerds around the world spend so much of their time on English YouTube while also having classes, so they get the input they need as well and that's why so many have pristine English. So classes help, but INPUT is the adhesive which brings everything together; the brain is a muscle and language is a muscular action. Stephen Krashen's Input Hypothesis has a lot of scientific data behind it, and that's my summary of it, but you can look into it as well if it sounds interesting.
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>>4348 That sounds very convenient as consuming is always easier than producing, so I understand the appeal. What do they do in Usonian language classes? When I was in school we did all kinds of activities, including listening practice, reading comprehension, memorizing, etc., so in addition of studying grammar, there was plenty of input readily available. I agree that Duolingo is not very good as a course, in my opinion it relies too much on translation. But it is pretty nice for additional exercises that you can do a little of every day.
>>4349 >Usonian Based; anyway, idk we kinda just fucked around was my experience. Sure we learned vocabulary lists and grammar structures, but at a very slow pace and it's all memorization. Listening practice and reading comprehension isn't something we meaningfully did until I'd say the third year, and they didn't even have us attempt to read a book til the fourth (this is in all grades 9-12). There was essentially no exposure to long form speaking of Spanish at all, and no encouragement to get it on our own time. If I lived in a more latino part of the country I probably would've got plenty more exposure to speakers without even trying, but as it stands all I can really do is translate, and the rest of my fellow former students can hardly even do that. So anything I could ever want to say in Spanish (except for a few minor phrases and expressions) must first be filtered through English; I'm fairly good at that, but it's hardly any way to be speaking a language! I been thinking about watching Spanish dubbed anime to brainblast me, but I hear most dubs suck and also I find it really hard to consUme anime or most content these days, even if I'm doing literally nothing else because Coronita. Though that's a bit of personal ramble.
>>4352 Did you ever deliberately try to think in Spanish? It might work. Memorizing poems and short prose or excerpts could also help, it should force you to bypass your inner translation.
>>4353 Well as Usonians, we of course had to memorize the pledge of allegiance, but in Spanish! I do know the whole thing by heart, and understand the meaning of everything I'm saying without translating, but it is just for that specific thing. Trying to think in Spanish for most anything else I find often results in translation; I really do think of an English word before the Spanish can come out. I really do think I just need more exposure to listening and understanding others speaking so that my brain has a better innate understanding, I'm just really lazy about actually doing what I need to do lol.
>>4354 >we of course had to memorize the pledge of allegiance, but in Spanish! Really? For like Spanish class?
>>4355 Ay si` papi. https://voca.ro/eLh1pzgwfnz Some white chick with a german surname fresh outta college was teacher that year. I don't even know if it's even a correct version honestly, but that's the version she had us memorize. On wikipedia it says 'Juro' instead of 'Yo prometo' so I think she was bullshittin it lel.
>>4356 I find that rather odd because I live in a predominantly Latino community and we never had to learn the pledge in Spanish lol also is that you reciting it
>>4357 >also is that you reciting it Yes; was my pronunciation trash?
>>4358 Actually, it ain’t too bad. I think you even may have rolled your R’s, something I’ll tell you is usually not present.
>>4359 I feel like I recall some of my gringo teachers not being able to roll their 'r's and doing the English rhotic one. Just disgusting lel.
>>4356 ngl you sound like you are speaking portuguese. Did good tho but still need to strip a bit off the gringo pronunciation.
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>>4354 >we of course had to memorize the pledge of allegiance, but in Spanish!
>>4358 the accent was unexpected, it didn't sound like the typical american accent.
This site has some pretty nice games featuring (mainly) European languages: https://baltoslav.eu/
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Would you consider music and math a 'universal language'? This is something my teachers would tell me and I was wondering what y'all think of the concept and if you agree or disagree?
I didn't post ITT yet? Well, it's gonna be a long post... apologies in advance. The language I'm most seriously trying to learn is Japanese, mostly because I love Japanese music and films and it's just a really cool language. Haven't watched much anime in like a decade, though, aside from the occasional feature-length film... not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Aside from Japanese, I bounce around different languages to learn bits and pieces. Usually Ural-Altaic (I know it's not a language family, just a sprachbund), Sino-Tibetan or Indo-Iranian ones. There's also Arabic, but at this point I just want to learn vocabulary since many of the languages I'm interested in have loanwords from it. I used to be really into Romance languages in the past, but then gradually lost interest. After a handful of years, I'm currently trying to get back into Spanish... but struggling. >>4469 Adam Neely talked about that in one of his videos. In a nutshell his argument was IIRC that as far as the western world goes, the answer is yes but that in many non-western cultures music has an inseparable religious/spiritual element to it or doesn't distinguish between performers and audiences, so it's not a universal language. I'm not sure if I buy that argument, though. I'm pretty sure everyone regardless of their cultural background can appreciate music as a purely sonic phenomenon. Maybe people from cultures that have literally zero contact with the western world and are entirely outside its sphere of influence wouldn't "get it" at first, but still. I'm not sure if Adam Neely argued it but I've heard the claim that it's racist to call music a universal language, but I'd say the opposite is at least as valid: claiming that only westerners (and westernised cultures) can perceive/conceive music as a purely sonic phenomenon sounds pretty fucky to me, regardless of whether the implication is that westerners are somehow more intellectual/rational/whatever or that westerners are uncultured swine. My own opinion is that music is a near-universal language, but not universal. It can bring people together regardless of what languages they speak, so in that sense it's "universal". However, the language barriers that exist between different languages also exist in music, albeit to a much lesser degree. Still, the message or intended mood of a song or entire style of music can be completely misinterpreted when someone from a different culture listens to it; as a personal example, to me gamelan music often sounds "creepy" even if it's not meant to. >>4365 Please rate (or bully) my accent too! Is it even understandable? https://vocaroo.com/d8DywJ4RsWY I put my flag as unknown to keep you from having preconceived notions, but it may be obvious where I'm from...
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>>4470 Are you from Russia by chance?
>>4471 nah, he's painfully german. >>4470 Did you get far with arabic? I tried going for it once but I just couldn't get around it after like a month. It's very difficult.
>>4470 >Please rate (or bully) my accent too! Is it even understandable? It's quite understandable. You could get by in any country.
>>4471 >>4472 >mfw I sound Russian or German So it's true, Finns are Slavic-Germanic hybrids and Finnish is a conlang created by Slavic and Germanic peoples to larp as Mongols. Explains why our language violates several soft linguistic universals, just like amateurish conlangs often do... who knew, the meme was true all along and Finland doesn't exist! >Did you get far with arabic? Unfortunately no, there's way too little for me to latch onto. I'll admit I mostly learned Islamic phrases and vocabulary since Islam was a big reason why I wanted to learn Arabic. Not that I was ever a (proper) Muslim or even close to it, but the point is I tried to become one and that was motivational for learning Arabic. A feedback loop, you know? The grammar, though... I could say Arabic grammar has pushed me farther from God's light lmao, which practically every leftist would say is a good thing so I guess I'll take it. My biggest accomplishment is learning to read the script, but of course I'm clueless as far as the unwritten short vowels go. Pronunciation-wise, from time to time I might be able to pronounce /ʕ/ and the emphatic consonants, but most of the time I'd fuck them up in some way. So yeah, tbh I didn't even get to a one-year-old's level and agree it's very difficult. How far did you get? Did you get anywhere with the grammar? >>4473 >It's quite understandable. Nice. I know I pronounced H's that are supposed to be silent even though I tried not to, it's much harder to drop them in Spanish than English (for obvious reasons), and thought that could make it incomprehensible. Is there anything else I should work on ASAP? >You could get by in any country. Not if I was speaking off the top of my head... I'd 100% certainly pseudo-Spanify some English words and probably throw in random Japanese words.
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>>4469 I wouldn't consider mathematics a language, and mathematical notation is notoriously not universal.
Actually, Esperanto is the universal language.
If I know two Germanic languages by luck of birth and want to learn several Romance and east-Asian languages (at most five, but more realistically probably two or three) - should I pick up linguistics? Anyone ITT study linguistics? Basically: I'm imagining that this would help tremendously, but I hardly know anything about the subject and I might be misinterpreting what exactly is the point of linguistics vs learning a couple of specific languages to be able to talk / organize with native speakers. >Linguistics: The study of the nature, structure, and variation of language, including phonetics, phonology, morphology, syntax, semantics, sociolinguistics, and pragmatics. (thefreedictionary)
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>>4481 Incredibly based, will definitely play it. I wonder if there are more of these for other languages.
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>>4481 I played with it, it's pretty cute.
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>>4483 There seems to be one for learning Japanese, but thats not surprising given where VN originated one, that one would make the most sense. But there sadly doesn't seem to be anything for any other language
>>4481 this is pretty interesting.
>>4479 I don't study linguistics professionally, but it's a hobby for me so I'll reply anyway. It might help a lot in some ways, but it can also be a burden. It's good to keep in mind that linguistics is descriptive, not prescriptive or reflective of actual reality. There are always going to be differences between the uses for grammatical cases that are considered the same from a linguistic perspective, for example, so while eg. a dative case is going to have more or less the same uses in different languages, there can be huge differences in the specific uses. It can be very exhausting and an actual hindrance to think in "exceptions", as in if you'll think "the dative in Language A is the same as the dative in German, except..." and you'll have an easier time just figuring out the ways the cases are used without caring about what they map to in languages you already speak. That's really hard, none of us can do it perfectly since we're not learning them as our first language as kids, but imho it's worth it even if you succeed only a handful of times. On the other hand, it's good to know linguistic terminology so that you can look up specific aspects of how the languages you're learning do things. So, really, I'd suggest learning at least some basic linguistic terms and whatnot but if your goal is fluency rather than nerdiness, it's not necessary and is like a wrench in both the good and bad. Hopefully that was helpful, even though it probably wasn't. But I mean, linguistics is such a broad term and can mean almost anything.
>>4489 >Hopefully that was helpful It was really helpful! I'll take your advice and at least pick 'lingustics 1' or something at uni (fellow euro) and focus on my specific languages of interest mainly. Thank you.
>>4491 (torposting)
I'm gonna try to learn Balochi or Pashto. The latter is more useful, but the former is more interesting and niche. I'll decide and see if I can at least converse with some friends in the language or read simple stories.
Did you guys see what people discovered about the scots wikipedia? A furry guy who literally wrote 10.000 articles on the scots wikipedia, with more than 200.000 edits, doesn't bloody know one bit of scots. Literally, it is all just fucked english, with almost no resemblance to scots. This is why I always thought there was something wrong with the scots wikipedia, it was always so similar to english. This explains a lot. https://boards.4channel.org/his/thread/9325436#p9325759
>>4500 Wonder howfur th' wikipedia admins ur goint tae react
>>4500 WTF. He has done it for seven years.
>>4502 He is 19, he has been doing this since he was 12
>>4500 >furry >10.000 articles >200.000 edits >doesn't bloody know one bit of scots > seven years >He is 19 >doing this since he was 12 QUE??????????????????????????????? This story gets progressively weirder and weirder
>>4491 Good luck! >>4500 Holy shit... this is the kind of trolling that people centuries from now will still tell their kids about. It doesn't seem like anyone knows why he actually did it? I wonder if it was just to see how long he could keep at it for shits and giggles? Or an intentional "Scots is just bad English" campaign? Anyway, this reminds me so much of that guy who claimed to speak a previously undocumented language in Scotland called Focurc, which was exposed as a conlang based on Scots but he still insisted it's real. It's also making me reconsider if all the Guti shit and whatnot really could also be one person after all...
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>>4506 > It doesn't seem like anyone knows why he actually did it? Yeah nobody knows yet But man, it would really be the biggest shitpost on language history, if he was actually just trolling. The guy literally destroyed scots reputation with those fucked articles. One thing that I find weird about him, is that in his other profiles he NEVER mentions scots, not even a bloody time. He mentions in the first image that he can somewhat speaks russian and spanish, but no mention of scots. In his other profiles he never shows any interest in Scottish culture, history and etc. It is just really weird all of this. People calculated that theoretically, he would had to be writing 8 articles per day, to get to this amount of articles that he got today. This would be the mots dedicated shitpost in history, if he was just fucking around. Also here is his furry stuff
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>>4508 oh god, him listing all his ancestry gives me major amerimutt vibes
>>4500 >>4508 This is pretty sad. Imagine how a dying language dies this way.
>>4506 Are conlangs not real? Asking for a friend.
>>4513 Well they were using 'real' in the meaning that it naturally evolved from a previous language, not like conlangs, which are created which all the features in mind.
>>4508 >In his other profiles he never shows any interest in Scottish culture, history and etc. Oh, that's too bad. I thought that with him being German-American he could enrich the German Wikipedia with facts about important people of Scotland. "Stuart Campbell ist ein former Gamingjournalist usw. current Advokate of Scottish Independenz. According to Kritiks höwever, he ist a big Schweinehund on ze Autobahn."
>>4508 Him not mentioning Scots anywhere else really points to it just being trolling, or at least confirms he's not delusional about it... apparently he may have just been running English Wikipedia articles through an online translator, though? Still a fuckton of time and effort spent on trolling when he could've been learning some language, if not Scots then improving his Spanish or Russian. I'd assume he chose Scots because for some reason he's passionate about it not being recognised as a distinct language, maybe he's an Angloboo? >>4513 In my opinion a conlang can arguably become a natlang, but it'd take a community teaching it to their kids as a first language without telling them it's a conlang and then them teaching it to their kids. The reason I say that is that I don't think one generation of speakers could possibly resolve all the "loose ends" that even the most fleshed-out conlang would have. In all likelihood, though, the first generation of native speakers would have the same attitude to the conlang of their parents as the children of speakers of moribund natlangs do; they wouldn't care about maintaining it, much less cultivating it, unless there was a profitable political motivation to do so. Honestly, though, I do think it'd be interesting to form a community with like 100-1000 or so people of different ethnolinguistic backgrounds in some previously uninhabited place and raise our kids as monolingual speakers of a conlang and maybe even teach them invented traditions and shit. It'd be unethical and the community would be broken up as a child abuse cult as soon as any outsiders caught wind of it, though. Besides, the kids would know that something was up from the fact that their parents didn't all look alike and had different accents, etc. Still, it's at least a fun thought experiment. And who knows, maybe it has actually happened in the past...
What are your thoughts on this list? https://blog.busuu.com/best-languages-to-learn/ Also what would your list look like /ref/?
>>4521 > Maybe it’s about maximising your opportunities – for business and work, or for travel. If that's the goal, I would definitely put English on the list.
>>4522 Since it's in english the writer probably assumes that whoever is reading this already speaks it
>>4519 >Honestly, though, I do think it'd be interesting to form a community with like 100-1000 or so people of different ethnolinguistic backgrounds in some previously uninhabited place and raise our kids as monolingual speakers of a conlang and maybe even teach them invented traditions and shit Isn't this basically what happened to hebrew
>>4523 I would have a list just for native English speakers and the only language on that list would be English so that they finally learn to use their stupid language in international settings where nobody other than them will understand their shitty Dr. Who references and obscure idioms that are only used by people living between two randomly chosen streets in London and only on sunny days.
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Found this real weird visual novel for learning scots
>>4521 Pretty good list, even if it clearly and openly is a "western capitalism is the best, now go exploit those poor third worlders" type list. I'd add Russian to the list, considering Siberia still has a lot of natural resources to offer at the expense of the lives of its indigenous minorities. >>4524 Kind of, but I'd argue there's still a big difference. Hebrew revitalisation is more like if a bunch of people with Latinate surnames from Greece and the Slavic and Germanic countries that were once part of the Roman Empire established a new independent country in and around Florence while claiming Rome as their rightful capital, which they wish to retake by any means necessary because at least a few of their distant ancestors probably lived there. They develop a modernised form of Latin based on Roman writings from the pre-Christian era, the pronunciation being heavily influenced by the phonologies of Greek and Slavic and Germanic languages since the movement would be led by their speakers. They'd shun the speakers of Romance languages as vulgar and their languages as corrupted, but regardless a lot of influences from contemporary Romance languages would trickle in, particularly Italian and Tuscan, especially among the lower classes. It's not perfectly analogous, but you still get the point. In purely technical terms there is overlap between language revitalisation and conlanging, of course. Every revitalised language is going to use neologisms and/or reconstructions to a significant degree and also be influenced by contemporary languages, but they're functional additions to and/or external influences on an existing language rather than alterations per se. The reason it's so clear in Hebrew is that it's by far the most successful case of language revitalisation and continues to evolve under the influence of other languages, while Latin is mostly spoken by priests and larpers who strive to keep it "pure" and view it as a relic. Hebrew used to be just like that AFAIK. Now, could you blur the line until it no longer exists in any meaningful way? Sure, but I can only think of one way around that: teaching people a conlang based on but not featurally the same as a real extinct language that (they believe) they have a community continuity with, and branding it as a revitalisation program. That's actually what Aboriginal Tasmanians are doing with Palawa kani, which is a conlang based on a combination of Tasmanian languages, so it has at least one real-life precedent. >>4526 Epic, but tbh fam imho for the best effect it should be something like >Yer dewen sew gewd dadaigh uwu
>>4500 Jeez, I thought /his/ was supposed to be one of the 'good' boards, guess it's still better than /pol/ though. That shit's honestly hilarious; no way they didn't just script something to machine swap words, especially if the syntax and grammar is exactly the same as regular english or only slightly different. Also possible they'd blast articles with the script and 'hand paint' a few details in to make it not look machined. >>4535 Somewhat off the current topic and maybe not the best question for you Finnbro, but I assume you might have the required knowledge. (also I'm not either of the burgers you responded to) The Norwegian uni of life sciences offers one bachelors program wholly in English and I'm trying to escape Burgerland, so I'm thinking of going there. That's the context and here's the question: why the fuck is alcohol so fucking expensive in Nordicland?? Is there anyway around it?? is it worse in Norway than everywhere else?? Like, god, .7L of stoli is like $45USD, same for standart; and vinmonopolet doesn't even have sweet sweet sobieski. It's also like $5USD for a single pint can of beer. I understand you guys had some kind of alcohol prohibitionist protestants, I assume the same ones that got booze banned a decade in the US (at the national level; for much longer before in some states), and that Norway has higher cost of living, but it just seems ridiculous even when taking the relative purchasing power into account.
>>4536 Norway is notoriously exoensive. FF, a norge poster from old /ref/ used to take trips to Sweden all the time for buying soda and such crap in bulk because of how much more cheap it was in Sweden compared to his country. And in sweden only government liquor stores are allowed o sell booze.
Question to Spanish-speakers: do you get some kind of an implication from pronouncing <v> and <b> as distinct? Asking because I struggle with pronouncing [β] consistently but have no problem with [ʋ~v] and [b], and it's also easier to memorise words if I pronounce the two letters differently. I'm also fine with sounding obviously non-native, it's just that I wouldn't want to give off some weird implications. >>4536 >I thought /his/ was supposed to be one of the 'good' boards Every board on 4chan has become /pol/luted to some degree by now, just like on 8chan in the end. I thought /his/ has been affected more than most boards, and would it really be surprising? Nazis love to circlejerk about history, culture, haplogroups, etc. Although I'll admit I'm not really a fan of /leftypol/ since I'm gulaggable as fuck, the fact that 4chan still doesn't have one or even anything remotely comparable should say it all tbh. >why the fuck is alcohol so fucking expensive in Nordicland?? I don't drink alcohol so I don't know much, but AFAIK it's not that expensive in Finland? People complain about it being expensive all the time and (used to) go to Estonia to buy it cheaper, but I've looked at the prices of alcoholic drinks at my local grocery stores and most are cheaper than ready-made meals... but maybe the "good stuff" is more expensive? I don't know, though, sorry. Anyway, at least in Finland alcoholism is a huge societal problem so maybe the government thinks higher prices disincentivise alcohol consumption? Then again, some time back they started allowing grocery stores to sell somewhat stronger alcohol (but not really strong), so it could just be that they want to maximise profit... >>4540 >And in sweden only government liquor stores are allowed o sell booze. Wait, even that is something Finland copied from Sweden? I googled it and it's the same, that mild alcohol can be sold at grocery stores but strong alcohol can't. Welp.
>>4542 Bloody hell boys there are having some really hot discussions on the scots wikipedia for what they should do with the articles, even the guy who made the articles made a comment: > Honestly, I don't mind if you revert all of my edits, delete my articles, and ban me from the wiki for good. I've already found out that my "contributions" have angered countless people, and to me that's all the devastation I can be given, after years of my thinking I was doing good (and yes, obsessively editing, I have OCD). I was only a 12-year-old kid when I started, and sometimes when you start something young, you can't see that the habit you've developed is unhealthy and unhelpful as you get older. I don't care about defending myself, I only want to stop being harassed on my social medias (and to stop my other friends who have nothing to do with the wiki from being harassed as well). Whether peace can by scowiki being kept like it is or extensively reformed to wipe my influence from it makes no difference to me now that I know that I've done no good anyway. --AmaryllisGardener talk 21:55, 25 August 2020 (UTC) If you guys want to here everything that is happening here is the link: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Large_scale_language_inaccuracies_on_the_Scots_Wikipedia
>>4544 *want to see typing too fast
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>>4544 Damn, so it was autism all along
>>4542 >Question to Spanish-speakers: do you get some kind of an implication from pronouncing <v> and <b> as distinct? At least here no one bothers with differentiating the sounds between the two. But some do. >Wait, even that is something Finland copied from Sweden? lol. Have you ever been over there? I spent like a month once there.
>>4544 >I have OCD Who'd have thunk it? >sometimes when you start something young, you can't see that the habit you've developed is unhealthy and unhelpful as you get older Oof, he has an actual point. Still, he was told that several times and he just ignored it. It's kind of indicative that he says all this only after getting attention from mainstream media, isn't it? Almost as if he wanted attention, like a troll...? >I only want to stop being harassed on my social medias If he legit wasn't trolling, he should've listened to the native Scots-speakers who told him that his broken English on the Scots Wikipedia wasn't Scots. If he legit wanted to do a good thing for Scots, well, he should've invested his OCD into learning Scots. Like, if his OCD is so powerful that it compels him to spend years pretending to speak Scots, it should be powerful enough to compel him to actually learn to speak it. Personally I'm still not convinced that he's not a troll, especially knowing he didn't mention Scots anywhere else... I'd like to hear him explain that. >>4550 >At least here no one bothers with differentiating the sounds between the two. But you wouldn't think "this guy is a far-right fedora tipper" or "this guy is looking for all-night anal penetration without a condom" or any other implication? >some do Interesting, do you know which dialects? Is it a Paraguayan thing? Because on the Wikipedia talk page for Spanish orthography, someone cites a thing saying explicitly that no dialect distinguishes between them, but on the talk page for Spanish phonology someone says Paraguayan Spanish does. >Have you ever been over there? No, and I'm not sure why I would. With time I learn more and more that it's apparently exactly the same as Finland, we've copied every single thing from Sweden. All they have is slightly cooler nature, but there's much cooler nature in Norway and Russia so why pick Sweden? Not that I'd ever realistically go to Norway or Russia or anywhere else either since I'm poor and agoraphobic, but... well, I'd rather go to Altai or Tuva or something if I could. Also, while I try to not be like "muh history", it's pretty hard to ignore the fact that Sweden colonised us for centuries; Russia did too, but I can't even think of Russia as one country since it's so massive and has non-Russian regions (for now) and those are more interesting anyway. >I spent like a month once there. Was it a hellhole or a paradise? I've heard both extremes but never anything in between, even from Swedes...
>>4554 >But you wouldn't think "this guy is a far-right fedora tipper" or "this guy is looking for all-night anal penetration without a condom" or any other implication? Uhh, not really. >Interesting, do you know which dialects? Is it a Paraguayan thing? Because on the Wikipedia talk page for Spanish orthography, someone cites a thing saying explicitly that no dialect distinguishes between them, but on the talk page for Spanish phonology someone says Paraguayan Spanish does. Well, b and v are used exactly like in english. So it isn't about dialect and more of how you're talking atm (ie formal or informal). Like it you are talking formally you will try to make sure it differentiates, otherwise ppl don't care. Have you ever been outside binland? >Was it a hellhole or a paradise? I've heard both extremes but never anything in between, even from Swedes... It was pretty nice. But it wasn't heaven on earth or anything. I dunno if it was the town the ppl I was staying with or something but everyone was extremely captivated by my looks for some reason and wanted to try and talk to me (Especially old ppl for some reason). Roads were so shitty tho considering.
>>4593 >Have you ever been outside binland? No, unfortunately the farthest I've ever travelled is less than half the length of Finland. >It was pretty nice I wonder how it will be after corona... >everyone was extremely captivated by my looks for some reason and wanted to try and talk to me (Especially old ppl for some reason) That's kinda funny, but makes sense if it was a smaller town and all they usually see are blue-eyed blondes or whatever? Or maybe you're just hot, dunno. Definitely makes Sweden sound more friendly and welcoming than Finland, though.
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>>4593 >PB getting that milf/gilf coochie Mad Respect
>>4595 >That's kinda funny, but makes sense if it was a smaller town and all they usually see are blue-eyed blondes or whatever? I guess. But I spent like two days in stockholm and it was the same. Many migrants also approached me and offered me drugs to buy for the most part. >Or maybe you're just hot, dunno. if only.....
Are you guys ready for the american bastardization of Esperanto?
>>4624 n-nani? how is esperanto going to be bastardized
>>4626 Yuo taki la Englisha wordo kaj puti i kaj a kaj o at la endo.
>>4604 >in stockholm and it was the same Huh. Do you look "unique" somehow? Like, I could kinda imagine that kind of reactions from old people here if you have eg. dark skin and light eyes, or very light skin and very dark eyes, or if the shape of your face is "exotic" in some way or something... >and offered me drugs to buy Oof, so /pol/ is actually right about something for once? FUCK. Oh well, at least in Finland it's not like that, at least visibly. Strange they'd do it so openly in Sweden, considering how strict their drug laws are and how racist their police are. >if only..... Well, maybe you don't think you're hot, but in the eyes of predominantly ugly Europeans you might be a perfect 10. >>4624 Yes.
>>4645 >predominantly ugly Europeans Hey!
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>>4645 >>4646 Looked up a 'map of cutest europeans' and came across this. WTF, why do people think the swedish are so hot? Also how true is this???
>>4647 Oh, forgot the title of where I found this. 'This Map Shows Where the Most Beautiful People in Europe Live'
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>>4647 >>4648 Interesting, I tried looking for the same and found this map that shows where the cutest Papis are.
>>4649 >tfw no qt /dead/izen skelly gf that defies the conventions and taxonomy of being qt
>>4646 Well, by "European" in that context I meant Northern and Western European. Southern and Eastern Europeans tend to be hotter imho. Well, I can't speak about Hungarians or Estonians but with Finns occasionally that primordial Uralic phenotype will manifest itself and result in TURANIC HORSE COCK RIDERS, but that's pretty rare. Unfortunately the majority of Finns look like a cursed mixture of Swedes and Russians with fetal alcohol syndrome, though. That said, hot Finnish (and I presume Estonian and Hungarian) women age like East Asians. If they're hot when they're 20, they'll probably still be hot when they're 40, 50 or even 60. The same can't be said as generally about Germanic or Slavic women, I think. So maybe Asian blood still coarses through our veins... but that'd veer into "muh haplogroups" territory unironically, which is cringe. Anyway, I wish more Finnish men grasped the fact that a woman having (dyed) blonde hair doesn't automatically make her "MUST BREED" tier. Maybe all Europeans have that obsession and not just Finns, though? People here tend to think it's American influence, but I strongly suspect it predates that. >>4647 Everyone who thinks Swedes are the hottest should be gulagged... I mean, I'm joking but who the fuck thinks Swedes are the hottest except Swedes themselves? Personally, I'd rank European hotness like this, from hottest to least hot, assuming we're talking about women who're ~20-30, it's a bit memey but more or less serious even if I didn't put too much thought into it: >Armenian (I mean JESUS CHRIST) >Kurdish (not really in Europe per se, but I have to include them) >Romani (have you SEEN Romani grills? hnng) >Turkish (what can I say? a lot of them hit that sweet spot) >Azeri (not as "steamy" as Turks, I guess) >Albanian/Kosovan (I once met an Albanian woman and legit got a boner... thankfully she didn't notice) >Georgian >Spanish (Latin Americans are hotter, but...) >Portuguese (Brazilians are hotter, but...) >Italian >Chechen/Ingush (that Dina girl whose face is used in that ethnography project gives me dick butterflies) >Crimean Tatar >Russian >Irish (mostly Saoirse Ronan tbh, she's top qt) >Greek >Bulgarian/Macedonian (pls don't circumcise me for grouping them together) >Finnish (excluding Americanised plastic bags) >Hungarian >British (the top 5% make up for the meh 90% and the OH GOD WHAT THE FUCK 5%) >Romanian/Moldovan >Basque (could be higher up the list tbh) >Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian/Montenegrin >Slovenian >Ukrainian >Belarusian >French >Lithuanian >Latvian >Czech/Slovakian >Sami (some are absolute beauties, but many look like Finns except they're about to go "ackchyually" any minute) >Estonian (I'm sorry...) >Polish (for some reason a lot of Polish women make me think of fetal alcohol syndrome) >German/Austrian/Swiss >Icelandic (Björk used to be hot, though) >Swedish/Norwegian (I can only think of one hot Swedish woman) >Dutch >Danish (I don't think I've ever seen an actually attractive Danish woman; Scarlett Johansson doesn't count... if she did, Danish might be #1 on this list just because of her lmao) >mfw I just spent over two hours on this post
>>4647 this map is absolutely accurate
>>4654 >Danes at bottom absolutely fucking based Finnbro fuck the danes and their shitty fucking country, may it be consumed by the tide ever-rising. Fuck the idea that G*rmoids are somehow 'hot'. Generally buen taste fren.
>>4688 >Danes at the bottom <absolutely fucking based https://www.youtube.com/c/VictoriasChannel/featured Are you retarded?
>>4687 Where's your flag?
>>4687 holy shit we've got an alien here
I need to start learning Chinese. Esperanto is just funny Spanish >>4647 why is the UK so high ?
>>4696 Iru kacen!
>>4687 t. Sweden >>4688 Thanks, but why do you seem to equate the hotness of an ethnicity with how good they are as people and how good the country/region they're the majority in is? Even with Kurds it doesn't apply, I mean just because they're leftists doesn't mean they're perfect. They literally practise FGM and are majority Shafi, which isn't exactly the denomination of Islam most compatible with socialism... I'd like to know how they make it work, or if the socialists are just a very vocal (non-Shafi?) minority and masters at PR. I hope they do actually make it work and that the majority of Kurds really are leftist and against FGM in future generations, etc. but who really knows? >>4691 I guess she's cute, but she looks like she was grown in a /pol/tard's basement from the discarded remains of fetuses aborted by "I only date non-white men"-shirt-wearing Danish women who were shocked by their kid's whiteness in the baby monitor. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking shit about her being too white or whatever (I look about 92% as white as her tbh), I just mean she has that /pol/ tier "smug white girl" look rather than a "smug girl who is white" look. I'm also not saying you can't abort a baby for being too white (unironically her body, her choice), but personally I think that's a stupid reason to have an abortion. I stand by the only attractive Danish woman I've ever seen being Scarlett Johansson, but her not counting because she's practically as American as Marilyn Monroe. Not sure if derailing this thread further is a good idea, though... maybe we should have a thread for this topic? Fuck it, I'll make one with that sexiness map template and a worldview map template since it kinda makes sense to contain both discussions within one thread. Not sure how long it'll take to fill those maps, though, and obviously at least the OP has to... >inb4 I'm the only one autistic enough to bother with it >>4696 What variety of Chinese?
>>4654 >>Portuguese (Brazilians are hotter, but...) Based
>>4699 Mandarin
just started learning french with Anki week ago. Its so annoying that "vous" and "veux" are so similiar yet they mean different things: "you" vs "want". Those words appear in same places in sentences too
Are there any places to get Japanese subtitles for films, also mostly Japanese? Quechua seems cool, also. What are some good textbooks to get started?
>>4702 Nice, I'll never understand people who prefer Cantonese. I'd also want to learn it and have tried a couple of times in the past but just can't get anywhere since I suck at memorising, pronouncing or even hearing tones. There's also the phonemic distinction between retroflex and alveolo-palatal sibilants, which is easy to hear but hard for me to pronounce reliably, although the vowel allophony helps. The grammar seems deceptively straightforward and English-like, though. Of course, then there's the writing... I always cringe when people say "the alphabet is the hardest part" about learning any language since usually it's about Cyrillic or Arabic script, but with Chinese it might actually be true?
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I was just looking up languages and apparently this is a sister language to English. Thoughts on Frisian?
Q1: Which methods are the most effective for learning languages? Grammar/writing, listening, speaking? Which order of best to worst? Q2: Is it possible to learn a language without speaking it?
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>>5348 Torposters are flagless.
Could you guys please stop giving me the silent treatment? Just because I'm nationless doesn't make me any less of a human... :( >>5347
>>5354 (I'm not Deutsche)
>>5347 Start with drilling how writing relates to pronunciation.
>>5347 >Q1: Which methods are the most effective for learning languages? Grammar/writing, listening, speaking? Which order of best to worst? I know this is no help buuuuuuut, depends on the person, try different things and on the meanwhile you'll also learn some bit of the language you're trying to lean >Q2: Is it possible to learn a language without speaking it? guess so but i don't know why you would
>>5347 >Q1: Which methods are the most effective for learning languages? Grammar/writing, listening, speaking? Which order of best to worst? It depends really. Some people get more by reading, others by listening and speaking it. There's no proven method. Tho the best thing is using both and immersing yourself in the language as much as possible. >Q2: Is it possible to learn a language without speaking it? Yes. Mute people (I personally know one that can understand 3 languages) can learn new languages so I don't see why that wouldn't be the case.
>>4735 >>5347 Usually the most difficult language to learn is those who is most distance of your mother tongue for instance though i can read Arabic script i can't read Farsi due to different use of volleys & grammar but it will more easier to learn than a southeast Asian language.
>>5362 >volleys Vowel sorry needed my coffee
>>5363 Hmm, but the vowel inventories of Persian and Arabic are very similar? Both have |a i u| and |aː iː uː| that are phonemically /æ e o/ and /ɒː iː uː/ in Standard Persian, and IIUC while in Arabic they vary a lot by dialect, their main allophones are [ɑ~æ ɪ ʊ] and [ɑː~æː iː uː] in Standard Arabic. Even if you have no idea about the vowels of a word, you have a one-in-three chance of getting each of them right just by guessing. If it has long vowels, then AFAICT in Persian there seems to be a tendency for the short vowels to be similar in quality, and |a| is the most common vowel anyway, so while you'd still technically only have a one-in-three chance, you may be able to deduce with more accuracy. In any case, at least the Arabic loanwords in Persian should be straightforward for you since they retain the same vowel archiphonemes they have in Arabic so you'd know that شخص couldn't be /ʃexs/ or /ʃoxs/ but /ʃæxs/. For me it's easier to guess the correct vowels in Persian words than Arabic words since they seem to be more "predictable" than in Arabic, but it's probably the opposite due to the way Arabic's root system works and I just suck at pattern recognition...
>>5364 Yes, Phoenician loans vowels shifted or merge like all vowels of Ṯāʾ ث and some minor difference. from Arabic speaker he most also relearn grammar. but duo to huge of similar words and loanword between Arabic and Farsi it will me more easier to learn than a southeast Asian language.
Accents? Does it play any role in language?
>>5388 What do you mean by role? It's just a natural part of the evolution of every language. due to distance, influence of other languages etc.
>>5388 English has hidden accents.
>>5388 Did you mean "dialects"?
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I was duped by the Finnish sounding Hungarian and Arabic sounding German
Why do we learn more languages when English already took over as the global lingua franca? Isn't it kind of redundant and counter-intuitive? I mean, we all gather around the internet and communicate using it. It is an ugly language though...
>>5418 Because most people around the world can't communicate in english and foreign countries often won't accommodate for your lack of understanding of their language.
>>5418 It may be the lingua franca, but the majority of people on the planet don't speak it. Also, whenever you learn a new language you just don't open up communication with other peoples, you also open up a new world of cultural stuff that doesn't cross even with translation.
I don't know if anyone is interested in this, but here are some Chuvash resources. If you have a basic Russian knowledge, and learn some words you can get through them pretty easily. Also here is a website teaching some basic stuff https://урокичувашского.рф/ The other PDF is just too big, here is the libgen link to it. It uses the old chuvash alphabet, so take it with a grain of salt. http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=69D98771FCD5CA0C56D84012AF6946AB
>>5418 Because it's fun and interesting? That's mostly it for me, at least. Not only that, when you're watching some film from whatever country and realise you'd understand like 1% of it even without subtitles, it's a good feeling. Good feelings are important in life. It's also just fun to learn new things, isn't it? >inb4 learning is suffering >>5421 Nice. Chuvash is an interesting language and I wish I had more interest in learning it. It being the only remaining Oghur language makes it important, at least, not that all languages aren't important but you know what I mean.
r8 my study plan >anki >vocab drills from my book >read book >kwiziq (grammar) I tried HelloTalk to talk with people but everyone is flakey as fuck, think I might make an InterPals or something IDK. What's the best way to talk to other language learners? I can pay if it's reasonable.
Does anyone here know or had gotten their hands on learning any kind of sign language?
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>>5674 >gotten their hands on learning any kind of sign language >hands at learning >sign language idk if it was intentional or not, but here's your (you)
I speak English, Bengali, French and Russian.
>>5708 Are you like a full polyglot or are you still working on one or the other. >>5675 Well, what else are you gonna sign with!
>>5715 Yeah, I’m fluent in all of them.
>>5797 That's pretty cool. Which is your native one? How did you come to learn the other ones and how long did it took you?
I always find it fascinating how people will sound a certain way when speaking a language. Like, there's a particular "male Japanese adult" voice, and a "male French adult" and a "male Russian adult" one, for example.


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