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(784.04 KB 1200x877 Diada-Catalunya.jpg)
Catalonia and Independence Anonymous Refugee 05/08/2020 (Fri) 10:31:52 No. 2932
Can any Spanish anons (or anyone else who knows) explain to me why Catalonia specifically wants independence? Does this go back further than the 20th century (I assume so) and how much was socialism a part of their efforts both then and now? Also, how if Franco viewed in the modern day both by the mainstream media/state and by average people?
Independentists are stupid and deluding themselves. Mostly leftist independentist who somehow believe that they could form a soviet catalan republic because something something something catalans are more leftists and shit.
>why Catalonia specifically wants independence? Well, first of all, the concept of "Catalonia" is older than the concept of Spain (unless you count roman Hispania of course). That being said, there are two main arguments that are used in the catalan independentism narrative; -1st we have a diferent language and culture, -2nd that we give more money to the spanish state than comes back in the way of infrastucture buildings, etc... >Does this go back further than the 20th century and how much was socialism a part of their efforts both then? Yeah, catalan independentism has formaly existed (although it existed for way longer) since Cuba's independence from Spain, with numerous attempts to break like 1925's insurrectional attempt (with CNT-FAI's support) or the Catalan State declarations of 1931 and 1934 to try and force an Iberian and an Spanish Federation respectively. >and now? Nowadays catalan independentism is divided into tree parties, wich are (in order of seats); juntsXcat (libs) [relevant; this is the party of Puigdemont, so some people vote it for him rather than their policies], ERC (succdems), CUP (anti-capitalists/socialists). In the spanish parlamient the ERC is part of the coalition that currently rules, it is important to note that they are bein very pasive now that they are in charge, and that they are starting to lose popularity so probalbly a part of their votes will be divided between CUP and JXC in the comming elections [if the predictions are correct, that is] Also, due to the fact that 70% of the population in catalonia actually came here during the postwar due to the fact that catalonia was one of the most industrialized parts (see pic) the independentist right-wing here is almost non-existant. >>2933 I don't think anyone sees independence -not even the CUP- as an immediate gate to create a socialist society, but rather as an end of a growing polarization that has been Spain's main problem since the First Republic (1873), the national question on which there were two main roles of power: castillian centralism and hegemony vs regionalist and federalist counterpowers. This summed up with breaking with the regime of the 78, a regime directly linked with the one of the 39 which is nothing but a lethal weapon towards any social movement. Its, afterall, an step to a new fight against capital.
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>>2932 >>2937 (me) (continuation) By the way, the pdf is the sauce of the 2nd pic. The polling was done by the generality of catalonia btw. >Also, how if Franco viewed in the modern day both by the mainstream media/state and by average people? There is definetly a part of spain know as the "nostalgicos" that think that everything was better under Franco (pic related, the question was "do you think that Franco was a dictator?", so there are people who even deny that) And also, if the topics comes up about the thousands of dead bodies that are burried in communal graves the right loves to spew about how "those damn lefties haven't gotten over the civil war"
>>2937 >mfw reading the CUP wiki page >municipalism >representative recall > referenda >a country that's independent, socialist, environmentally sustainable and free from the domination of the patriarchy Are they for real or are they just baiting the Rojava crowd to pull a new Podemos ?
>>3002 Libertarian municipalism is a real strategy that has been going on in Catalonia for the last several couple of years (has it's roots in the anti-austerity movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-austerity_movement_in_Spain aka 15-M). >>2933 Spanish anti-Catalans always come off as the biggest cunts. Spain is a fucking monarchy and legislatively still have Franco remnants, also in the political sphere. It's either communists if you're Spanish or independentist if you're Basque or Catalan. If you don't agree then your strategy is as good as pissing in the wind.
>>3003 Honestly the spanish left is really unlikeable, they are either radlibs or reactionaries.
>>3006 I don't agree. The hispanophone on the whole is way more based than the anglophone and most other places outside of asian communist-ruled areas. I'm guessing "radlib" translates to "anything not adhering to my specific sect of ML" to you. I agree that their reactionaries are an issue.
(169.19 KB 1569x372 españa.png)
Bruh if the Soviet Union taught us something is that Socialism In One Country is destined to fall under its own weight. The promise of socialism and world revolution in the 20th century was destroyed when the uprisings in Germany and the rest of Europe failed. The thought that a small European country would be capable of building socialism if it becomes independent, instead of becoming a fiscal paradise or being crushed by the reaction is laughable at best. The process of building socialism is going to require the mobilization and coordination of the people and resources of multiple countries. An example would be something like a Mediterranean Socialist Union (Portugal, Spain, Italy, France, Greece,...). And another thing, if a socialist movement starts to gain weight in Catalonia, why don't spread it to rest rest of Spain? And even neighboring countries?
>>3020 >ETA wanted to build communism..guys..?
>>3071 While what you're arguing for is undoubtely the better option, but we must be pragmatic. What you're arguing for has virtualy no suport among the population of all those countries. It's like pissing in the river >>3072 Bruh it's just a shitty meme
>>3071 Good point. It'd probably be better if revolutionary socialist comrades living in Spain would join a Spanish communist party and collaborate with Portuguese, French and Italian communists. I mean how many times can the center-right (to far-right) shut down independentists on legalistic grounds, citing the dogshit, monarchial constitution? Our strategy here is clearly replacing it with a republican one and giving autonomous regions the option to break free by referendum. >>3075 Don't you agree? >pragmatism But the independentist route repeatedly gets repressed by national interests. A region can't beat a nation like that, it's actually not pragmatic at all. Am I wrong?
>>2932 >why Catalonia specifically wants independence? Does this go back further than the 20th century (I assume so) and how much was socialism a part of their efforts both then and now? The catalan independence movement is, and always has been, a bourgeoise movement. During the 20th century, there were two catalanist wings, a smaller fascist one and a liberal one. The CNT has never supported any of these in their nationalist struggle, only choosing to collaborate with the liberals after they (CNT with some support from the catalan government) stopped the military fascist coup in 1936 in Barcelona. When the coup was over the CNT chose not to seize the state and allowed Lluis Comanys to remain in power in Catalonia. I want to note one specific catalanist, Francesc Cambó, an industrialist who choose to fund Franco during the civil war to prevent a working class revolution and who still has a street named after him in Barcelona. Now let's get to after the democratic transition: CIU (right wing bourgie catalan party) repopularized the independence movement as a way to give Catalonia a special status to manage catalan taxes known as concierto económico. They took the risky strategy of pushing for independence to eventually "settle" with concierto económico and to mask their social services spending cuts and corruption during the economic crisis. Due to the general unrest with the economic situation independentism started to gain traction, harnessing the rightful anger of some of the young people and presenting itself as a "progressive" alternative to the spanish right wing government that had been led by PP for multiple legislatures (Catalonia has always been one of the more progressive autonomies of Spain). After independentism started gaining traction, it got too big to backpedal so now whatever rebranded CIU there is has to roll with it. Esquerra Republicana and CUP joined the effort. ER is a succdem center-left indpendentist party, while CUP is the real deal, they are muncipalist independentists. CUP are a minority in electoral politics, they achieved some power, became crucial during a legislature to the bigger independentist CIU-ER coalition, but lost support when they wouldn't approve CIU's neoliberal economic policy plan, "sabotaging" the independence movement in the eyes of some. The reason why catalan nationalism is popular with the right wing is that they view the rest of Spain as dead weight who burden the catalan economy, most notably Andalucía.
>>3076 >Don't you agree? Well, I do agree on him on internacionalism, that socialism in one country is bound to fail and I also share a final goal with him. But reading his post it makes me think that he is arguing that we should stop supporting the independentist movement and start oragnizing for what he's arguing for, wich as I've stated would be a waste of time >A region can't beat a nation like that, it's actually not pragmatic at all. Am I wrong? Well, the idea isn't to start a war against spain, currently there are tree major ideas on how to become independence; 1-Trying to get the EU's attention (JxCat) 2-Negociating with Spain (ERC) 3-Unilatery and defending the republic trough pupular support but not trough war (CUP) I do agree that it is not an easy thing to do, but I do belive it to be more likely in our lifetimes than what he is saying. >>3078 First of all I wanted to remark that your first claim is false: funnily enough its a piece of propaganda started by the Spanish right wing. Catalonia's main Employee's Union (Foment del Trevally) is diametrically opposed to independentism till the point of funding a far right organization like SCC (an attempt to unite Spanish nationalism under one organization) to combat independentism, so that's not even an open question. >a smaller fascist one Catalan fascism has always been almost non-existant >and a liberal one. What do you mean? the ERC in the past was really different that the one we have currently. When the CEDA (right-wing coalition) won the republican election in 1934 and there was a revolt against the goberment, Lluís Comanys (leader of the generality at the time) joined the revelion and stated; <In this solemn hour, in the name of the people and the Parliament, the Government over which I preside assumes all the faculties of power in Catalonia, proclaims the Catalan State of the Spanish Federal Republic, and in establishing and fortifying relations with the leaders of the general protest against Fascism, invites them to establish in Catalonia the provisional Government of the Republic, which will find in our Catalan people the most generous impulse of fraternity in the common desire to erect a magnificent federal republic Now, it is also important to note that the leaders of the protest were the comunists who established the asturian comune, eg; they suported communists, wich isn't a thing a common liberal thing to do. >I want to note one specific catalanist, Francesc Cambó, an industrialist who choose to fund Franco during the civil war to prevent a working class revolution and who still has a street named after him in Barcelona. Francoist street names are not that rare m8, what's the point you're trying to make? I agree on the part that CIU (a center-right party btw, not right-wing.) used independentism as a way to get more power. On the part of CUP, it is evident that in the next elections they will regain power again, speacially afther the way ERC is fucking up lately
>>3079 The thing is, I don't see why a member of the working class would support ERC when CNT was as big as it was in Catalonia. The only people for whom it would make sense to support ERC would be catalan industrialists and the petite bourgeoisie, opposing both working class movements and the central government and hoping to replace class conflict with nationalist conflict, maybe by making some concessions. >On the part of CUP, it is evident that in the next elections they will regain power again, speacially afther the way ERC is fucking up lately I hope so but I'm not that sure. Their voter base seem more concerned with achieving independence than with socialism.
>>3081 As I've said before, the ERC during that time was much diferent from the current one, Lluís himself defended the CNT many times, and in the 1934 revelion he armed the CNT. >I hope so, but I'm not that sure. That's what the polls say at least > Their voter base seem more concerned with achieving independence than with socialism. Well, during the russian revolution most people probably cared more about ending the 1st world war / getting their basic needs served than socialism. But nevertheless they still fought
Ok, we have to look at the independence movement like it is right now. It's a petit-bourgeoisie movement. Its only purpose is to distract, just like Spanish nationalism. All those small business owners are going to proletarianize, and at much bigger rate now that we are in a global depression, and if they are in Catalonia, they will support the porky party that is going to promise them an independent business friendly Catalonia. And in other parts of Spain, those small porkies will turn to nationalism. You really don't think that if there was a socialist movement gaining power the Catalonian capitalist government wouldn't tried to use catalonian nationalism to defend themselves? The inconvenient truth is that Catalonia alone can't build socialism, Spain alone can't build socialism and any European country right now can't build socialism alone. First because it will be crushed by internal and external forces by military or financial power (sanctions). Second because of deindustrialization. The fight in this decade and the next has to be international, and it's not impossible. A network of parties/unions/organizations more or less coordinated in its actions. Right now is difficult because the conditions in each country differ from each other, but we are in the start of a global depression here. And I think it's possible that organizations in the near future gain power in France and in the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain). A wave of revolutions in the south of Europe (where I think it's more probable), plus some other waves in South America and Southeast Asia would put global capital in checkmate. But maybe I am too optimistic.
>>3078 >The catalan independence movement is, and always has been, a bourgeoise movement. >During the 20th century, there were two catalanist wings, a smaller fascist one and a liberal one. The CNT has never supported any of these in their nationalist struggle, only choosing to collaborate with the liberals after they (CNT with some support from the catalan government) stopped the military fascist coup in 1936 in Barcelona. The catalan nationalist movement was a bourgeois movement, but the independentist movement was mostly (and still is) from the radical petitbourgeoise and the catalan-speaking working class. Estat Català was not a bourgeois movement, Francesc Macià himself traveled to the USSR to gain support for his cause. And plenty of worker leaders supported the national liberation of Catalonia. Saying that Salvador Seguí (CNT), Joan Comorera (PSUC) or Andreu Nin (POUM) were just liberals is non-sense. And don't give me that crap about Francesc Cambó, because the Lliga Regionalista was anti-independence. Read José Díaz on the national question in Spain: >«¿Es que va a resolver el gobierno actual el problema de las nacionalidades oprimidas? Yo os digo que no. Y la prueba es ese proceso que se sigue por el tribunal más reaccionario del país contra los Consejeros de la Generalitat. Va a recaer sobre ellos el peso de una sentencia monstruosa. Treinta años de prisión les piden, y no hay duda de que serán condenados a esa pena. ¿Y sabéis por qué van a ser condenados? Porque ese proceso no es solo el de los hombres a quienes se juzga. Quien va a ser condenado con esa sentencia es todo el pueblo de Cataluña, por su rebeldía, por su levantamiento contra la opresión del imperialismo español. Y contra esa monstruosa condena, contra del odio a la libertad de Cataluña, yo os digo lo que antes: ¿Es que no estamos obligados a luchar en la Concentración Popular Antifascista por la liberación de esos hombres, a quienes se condena como expresión del odio y la opresión imperialista? (Voces: ¡Sí!, ¡Sí!) >Pues entonces, camaradas, tenemos una razón más para unirnos todos: la lucha por la liberación de Cataluña y de todas las nacionalidades oprimidas a disponer de sus destinos. (Aplausos)». >«Queremos que las nacionalidades de nuestro país -Cataluña, Euskadi, Galicia– puedan disponer libremente de sus destinos ¿por qué no? y que tengan relaciones cordiales y amistosas con toda la España popular. Si ellos quieren librarse del yugo del imperialismo español representado por el poder central, tendrán nuestra ayuda. Un pueblo que oprime a otros pueblos no se puede considerar libre. Y nosotros queremos una España libre. Queremos libertades democráticas plenas para el pueblo, libertad de reunión, de manifestación. Queremos también, como una de las medidas indispensables para después del triunfo electoral, que desaparezcan todas las organizaciones fascistas y que sean recogidas las armas que en gran cantidad están en sus manos y que esgrimen contra el pueblo trabajador.»
>>3090 It doesn't matter that socialists and anarchists support now and supported in the past the movement. It's a petitbourgeoise movement simply by its nature of being a nationalist movement that distracts from the class struggle. We aren't in the 19th century, nationalist struggles aren't useful for socialism in Europe anymore. And drawing more borders in the european map would do more harm than good to the socialist movement.
>>3094 I don't know about you but I am a Marxist-Leninist and I stand by Lenin's thesis on the right of nations to selfdetermination. What's not useful to the socialist movement is to adopt social-chauvinist positions that divide the working class among nationalist lines instead of building fraternity and internationalist friendship by democratically resolving the national question. National liberation is a bourgeois movement, but so is most trade-unionism, liberal constitutional rights or parliamentary politics. Should be not care if a capitalist government tried to impose autocratic rule, forbid the right to assembly or publish, or abolish the right to unionize? >inb4 unionizing is not bourgeois, it's proletarian!! Read Lenin
>>3099 If you think that there should be more countries in Europe instead of less you are lost. If you think Catalonia is an internal colony of Spain you are lost. Another thing that socialist experiments of the 20th century taught us is that multinational states are possible, and that nationalism inspired by capitalism breaks them. And like another anon said earlier, the architects of the modern independentist movement don't even wanna go independent. Lenin is dead, his writings are incredibly useful to understand and change the world today, but Marxist-Leninists, especially in Spain, have to stop using him as an excuse to say that we should replicate the Soviet socio-economic system exactly as it was under Stalin in Spain or in a deindustrialized chunk of it. The forces that want socialists crushed are not only the Spanish nationalists and fascists, but the UE, the United States, the IMF, etc. Again, building socialism in Catalonia, Spain or any European country by themselves is going to be impossible, simple as that. And Marxism-Leninism doesn't contradict anything that I have said. Capital is international and has no borders, why should our struggle have them?
>>3100 You miss the entire point, is not about if we communists want more or less countries. It's about building class solidarity between all nations. How will the working class of Spain, for example, organize into a powerful enough force to take power if the workers of the different nations within the state mistrust and fear each other? Applying the right to self-determination doesn't build nationalism, it disarms it. That's the entire point. Saying "no you guys don't get to decide if you wanna form your own country" doesn't make national differences disappear, the only you archive is to ruin cooperation between the workers, because then the proletariat of the small nation then mistrusts its comrades from the big nation and both sides end up falling into chauvinism. The only non-nationalist way of solving the issue without creating chauvinism in both sides and building class consciousnesses is by applying self-determination, aka "Wanna separate? Fine with us. Wanna keep together? Fine with us too. Just remember who the true enemy is". That's the way of building internationalism, and the reason why multinational socialist federations were possible in the XX century. >Marxist-Leninists, especially in Spain, have to stop using him as an excuse to say that we should replicate the Soviet socio-economic system exactly as it was under Stalin in Spain Who the fuck said that we wanna do that tho. >building socialism in Catalonia, Spain or any European country by themselves is going to be impossible, simple as that. And Marxism-Leninism doesn't contradict anything that I have said. Yes it does, the fact that uneven development of capitalism created different levels of intensity of class struggle depending on geographical location, and how thus the working class will inevitably conquer power first in one or a few countries instead of having a big world revolution is a basic idea of Leninism. Read "On the slogan of the United States of Europe". >Capital is international and has no borders, why should our struggle have them? You are the one who is arguing about how we have to keep the current borders of Spain whatever the people of the country feel about it, not me.
>>3102 Bro fuck Spain I want an Federal European Socialist Union. No but seriously. Why in the world would a Catalonian worker fear another worker from anywhere in Spain instead of fearing the capitalist class? Would it be because of nationalism? If there is distrust between workers of different regions you solve that by spreading class consciousness. I don't fucking care about the borders on this fucking peninsula. I only want an unified class movement that builds socialism and not a "yeah we have this corner, you have that". In an Iberian Socialist Union or a Mediterranean one or whatever the fuck, where the catalonian language is respected like any other language and the workers have established a DotP, what is the use of a border surrounding a fucking corner. Like, the only thing that crosses my mind is the argument of muh heritage, which I have seen in this thread and is entirely a liberal argument. What I meant about that there's too many countries in Europe is that many of them exist for the sole purpose of maximizing nationalism, chauvinism and capitalist interests. Like Switzerland, Andorra or the entire Eastern Europe.
>>3102 The catalan struggle for self-determination is being used to funnel unrest from an anti-capitalist stance born during the 15-M to a nationalist one. I was there during the 2017 referendum, people were fucking CHEERING on mossos d'esquadra for not intervening, cheering on the same mossos d'esquadra that were cracking skulls in plaça Catalunya during the 15-M protests 6 years before, deployed then by the same CIU under orders from Artur Mas, the politician who popularized catalan nationalism this decade.
>>3105 >They cheered when the cops did something good so that means that they approve the bad things they did before Moreover >In the 2019 riots people were saying "no hos merexeu la senyera que porteu" wich translates to "you don't deserve the senyera that you wear". Nowadays most Catalan independentists are, at least, critical of the police
>>3105 >The catalan struggle for self-determination is being used to funnel unrest from an anti-capitalist stance born during the 15-M to a nationalist one True, that's why the right to self-determination is useful for the working class. Have a vote, apply the result whatever it's yes or no, and then the workers will say "well, we've resolved our national issue but life still sucks" and class struggle will resume. The opposite only leads to all workers turning more and more nationalistic, both in Catalonia and Spain.
>>3198 Totally agree. My opinion in all this is the same as Anguita's (the only acceptable leftist position imo).
>>3198 I somewhat agree. I wouldn't wait for the referendum to stir up class struggle tho, even after its uselessness becomes apparent. In the next decade, I think the Depression and the decaying corpse of sociodemocracy are going to be enough. But more chaos maybe helps.

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