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🖥️/cybersoc/📊 Anonymous 10/14/2020 (Wed) 15:50:22 No. 997358
MANDATORY READING http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/ For a complete reading list, see: https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2020/05/01/two-reading-lists/ Cockshott's Patreon https://www.patreon.com/williamCockshott/ Cockshott's youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ Cockshott's Blogs https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/ http://paulcockshott.co.uk/ Cockshott's videos torrent archive Here's the torrent with all of Paul Cockshott's YouTube channel videos up to 27/10/2020 (i.e. Eliminating inequality): Magnet link: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:d5e5cc7a91228fef2ea213f816b27cfea8185961&dn=Paul%5FCockshott%5F%28October%5F27th%5F2020%29&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.opentrackr.org%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.to%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.me%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.internetwarriors.net%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.leechers-paradise.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.cyberia.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fexodus.desync.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fexplodie.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fp4p.arenabg.ch%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Ftracker1.itzmx.com%3A8080%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker3.itzmx.com%3A6961%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.zerobytes.xyz%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.tiny-vps.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ds.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.stealth.si%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.si%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.torrent.eu.org%3A451%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fretracker.lanta-net.ru%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fopen.acgnxtracker.com%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.moeking.me%3A6969%2Fannounce Torrent file: https://anonymousfiles.io/RileL0Sn/ This thread is for the discussion of cybersocialism, the planning of the socialist economy by computerized means, including discussions of related topics and of course the great immortal scientist himself, 🐔WILLIAM PAUL COCKSHOTT🎆 Previous thread was apperantly accidnetally nuked by the mods, so I'm making a new one. If you've got the pdfs or maybe even some screenshots from that thread feel free to post them
Edited last time by krates on 11/26/2020 (Thu) 02:49:57.
>>997358 was it nuked or did it just hit the bump limit?
Chad Cockshott tbh
What a lovely image
>>997365 On a side note: Lenins Chin is probably the reverse of the chinless /pol/face
>>997360 according to >>997100 they removed it by accident
>>997358 https://archive.vn/E11df New /cybersocialism/ general since the old one has hit bump limit MANDATORY READING http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/ For a complete reading list, see: https://web.archive.org/web/20190806121249/http://reality.gn.apc.org/Readinglist.htm cockshott's website reading list is down, the only place you can see it now is on archive.org Cockshott's Patreon https://www.patreon.com/williamCockshott/ Cockshott's youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ Cockshott's Blogs https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/ http://paulcockshott.co.uk/ This thread is for the discussion of cybersocialism, the planning of the socialist economy by computerized means, including discussions of related topics and of course the great immortal scientist himself, WILLIAM PAUL COCKSHOTT Previous thread >>474510 Thread archives (oldest to newest): http://archive.is/ZSznk https://archive.vn/PnDAj
>>997365 OH GOD THE AUDIO QUALITY i swear to god this guy sits down after recording and purposefully makes the audio as bad as possible. If i recorded something with my phone it would sound better. Dickblast why
>>997456 he's getting a new "mike"
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>>997471 pic rel oops forgot
>>997456 He said his kid bitten into the big mike. Can't have shit in Glasgow.
>>997496 No way this guy still has a toddler at home. He is grandpa Material
>>997520 He just too chad, he still has kids
Anybody working on anything?
>>997520 who said anything about a toddler?
>>997595 He said it was his son. I assume his son is a toddler and not some retard Adult
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I've seen a comment where he says he is happy to take in questions via email. Anyone know his adress?
>>997632 John Paul memes are the only good thing to have come out of Poland
>>997638 Felix and Rosa too my friend
>>997642 Yeah, you're right. Can't forget those based comrades.
>>997630 Message him on Facebook, he answers everybody
>>997365 I don't know why this is supposed to be about TaNS but that's an excellent video to redpill beginners. This motherfucker just fucking summarized historical materialism within 5 minutes
yeah
>>997365 Good thread. Comrade Falosfire is super based.
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Um, I want to translate some article on consensus planning written by Glushkov and mail it to Cockshott to get his opinion. Problem is scanned article doesn't have a text layer. Is there some user friendly ORC soft for linux? Tesseract OCR says it works only from command line and only on tiff format, which is a pain in the ass. Article is just 8 pages long, but it has mathematical formulas in vector algebra notation. It would be way faster if I could just redact google translated text and make formulas in libreoffice math. tldr I need help to translate an 8 page article from russian.
>>997630 It's in the commits on his github account (https://github.com/wc22m): william.cockshott at glasgow.ac.uk I emailed him the other day, worked fine.
>>998393 what did you email him about?
>>998314 Open a separate thread to ask for it anon, get more eyeballs on that
>>998314 I don't get what the big deal is if you are translating it anyway. I don't know what your operating system is, but on mine I can right-click on the frame of the window with the original document and set it to be on top, so it won't play hide and seek with me whenever I'm writing in another window. I have translated things working like that. For math stuff you can do a screenshot (on my OS I can press print key + shift to drag the mouse for selecting only a rectangular section to make a screenshot of). Can you upload the original?
can someone repost all his PDFs?
>>998983 You can get the PDFs from the archive link.
>>998944 I just don't have much time with work and all, but I guess I'll have to type it by hand. >For math stuff you can do a screenshot scan quality is quite bad >Can you upload the original? nope, it's in djvu format and bunker doesn't allow to upload it
>>999075 Rename it .pdf without converting, board software will allow it.
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>>999181 article I want to translate is on page 148
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NEW VIDEO Inequality in Britain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-A9oWECsJI
Thank you for the based edit, krates
>>1002602 Bros why is his audio quality perennially bad, hopefully his new mic that he ordered will be an improvement
>>998432 Some ideas of mine regarding stability criteria. Why market economies regularly crash vs why socialist economies typically don't
>>1002602 He's just pumping out vids, what a chad.
>>1002602 Who are you?
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imagine giving your own book 4 stars lol
>>1004592 What a legend lmao
>>1004592 Something terribly British about that.
Any Spanish/Latino anon here? I feel a translation of this piece shold be useful for the people in this thread. https://cibcom.org/socialismo-planificado-y-democracia-procedimientos-economicos-viables/
>>1002602 is this a shoop or did one of you actually get the bunkerchan logo tatooed on yourself?
>>1005043 This is not the bunkerchan logo…
daily reminder Cockshot is /maogang/ . Peoples war until cyber communism dig
>>1004592 Truly a humble and benevolent god
>>1004592 If he thinks his book is inadequate, has he released any corrections of any sort?
>>1004592 monty python's flying circus
>>1004592 link?
>>1004592 The absolute madman
>>1004592 So funny that the cybersocialist uses computers in such an endearing boomer way lmao
Here's your reminder Cockshott is not an actual Marxist and sees the main problems with capitalism not in class relations but rather poor distribution of goods.
>>1006249 Lmao you think the poor distribution of goods is not a class issue. Bruh, bruh thats the whole thing bruh literally the whole point bruh like all of it, if you sum it up, like, the bourgeois class is bad at distributing things though lmao bro smh
>>1006255 Are you ok?
>>1005043 >the bunkerchan logo kek
The 'Plan C' video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imh7W0Q1oyA ) was just what I needed. Talk about inspirational.
>>1005043 >the bunkerchan logo
>>1006485 what does everyone think of Cockshott's answers on Quora? https://www.quora.com/profile/Paul-Cockshott/answers
>>1005043 > the bunkerchan logo the absolute state of zoomers
>>1005043 i'm not even surprised anymore, this board has gone to shit a long time ago, and no retardation is out of question at this point
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>>1005043 >bunkerchan logo
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Hey fellow cybersoc MLs, we're currently trying to get Cockshott an entry way to help advise the new MAS government in Bolivia. We think that, if they were receptive to his theories, they could do truly incredible things with their nationalized lithium sector. He's already responded with interest, so we've already got the man himself tentatively on board, and we'd love to get any anons we can to help in this operation. We're looking for Spanish-speaking anons in particular, but we welcome anybody to help the cause. https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/1013411.html
>>1016527 >Cockshott So this is the power of leftypol
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>>1005043 based cringe bringe
Reposting Cockshott's books and articles.
>>1016712 thanks for the pdf reposts anon
Cockshott points out that given the Domesday records, feudal estates can be calculated to have run at around 64% efficiency. Did the Soviet technique of linear optimization bring efficiency to 100%?
Anyone know how to dismantle this arguments against cybersoc? https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Jsn6yMgkselXPlrgvggu0CW5JfANgSD1
So Cockshott turned out to be unbased.
>>1031210 >Basic Leninist position on voting <Unbased
>>1031214 Lenin is a dead guy that founded a failed communist state. Maybe we shouldn't be following him in the 21st century.
>>1031228 >Failed communist state Ok jack
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>> 1031245 A radlib would never wear a Che shirt, weird adhom.
>>1031249 Maybe, still on point for the rest
>>1031245 radlibs did wear che shirts if i remember right, and then they stopped because he was a heckin' racist homophobe
>>1031249 >>1031255 >radlib go back to stupidpol, chapocels
>>1031262 Okay :-(
Why is lambda the official logo of cyber socialism?
>>1031280 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus 2) Lambda represents labour in physics 3) IS COOL AS FUCK
>>1031210 how exactly is that "unbased?"
>>1031068 how is this random paper on behavioral economics even relevant to cybersoc? the "planning" references the planning of individual behavior of actors/agents in a market based economy. this literally has nothing to do with planning in the cockshottist/cybersoc sense
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>>1031255 go back to instagram radlib
>>1031228 Fuck off and never come back
>>1031228 This is the correct dialecitic and marxist take.
>>1031720 don't even pretend to be this retarded
>>1031210 Can you give a reason for thinking he is wrong on this ?
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>>1031720 Nobody is that retarded, it has to be bait.
>>1016715 >One of the chief assumptions that Marx called in question was the “naturalness” of commodity exchange, and the associated representation of the labour time required to produce things in the form of exchange value. He introduced the vocabulary of “forms”: the commodity is a “form”; exchange value is a “form”; money is a “form”. When Marx calls a social phenomenon a form, he means that it is not a universal requirement: it is specific, historically determined and mutable. If you will, it represents one solution to a problem that has other, substantially different, solutions. This is the same person who says that studying Hegel (from whom Marx took the form/content distinction) is pointless, mind you.
>>1034687 What are you saying?
>>1034687 You think it's a good idea to snipe at Cockshott for his lack of understanding the content of Hegel and its importance, yet you don't even state a single objection to the interpretation of Marx in that section. So, what this tells me is that you likely agree with how he grasps it. Sooo… how does this work as an example for misunderstanding Marx due to a lack of familiarity with Hegel then? It doesn't. Btw. talking about form in that way is something people do in ordinary German.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_wxk7Ihyok >create a slightly more ethical auction system >get a Nobel Prize in economics >make an empirical case for socialism >get ignored for 3 decades
>>1035519 Sraffa Kalecki Pasinetti Shaikh Roberts never won anything and are 100x the economists these two other auction guys will ever be
>>997638 >>997642 And Marie Curie.
Pic related is a few years old now. Should we make a new version or expand it?
>>1035586 someone should make a new version tbh
>>1035519 >Nobel Prize It's not an actual Nobel Prize you know. A bunch of bankers bought the brand, it's the Swedish Bankers Award.
>>1035519 You mean Vickrey auctions? (I don't click on YT links.)
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>>1031228 >Lenin is a dead guy that founded a failed communist state. Maybe we shouldn't be following him in the 21st century.
>>1035560 Respect for knowing about Kalecki. Can I ask how you came to find out about him? For me it was through researching John Bellamy Foster's influences.
>>1035645 Don't post my dad
>>1035659 Kalecki isn't nearly as obscure as John Bellamy Foster.
>>1035586 I fucking hate all of you bourgeois faggots. The only book on that list you need to read is Toward a New Socialism. Instead of wasting your time reading these arcane books which surely will take you many many years and waste a lot of your time, start organizing and doing stuff that actually matters.
>>1036188 Stalin read 3 books a day
>>1035659 I am an economics undergrad anon. Preparing rn a thesis on him Keynes and Minsky (can't go full based, gotta hide my power level)
>>1036214 That was while he was organizing, which came first.
>>1036273 Are you saying that reading stuff while organizing is not “doing stuff that actually matters”
>>1035032 >You think it's a good idea to snipe at Cockshott for his lack of understanding I think it's always good to snipe at anybody for his lack of understanding, because ignorance must be pointed out and the anti-intellectualism Cockshott is guilty of is poisonous and hurts our cause.
>>1034687 what exactly is wrong with this statement?
>>1036322 Cockshott doesn't need to grasp Hegel because he's grasped Althuser probably because he read Hegel at 18 or so Nota Bene: Aliis si licet, tibi non licet You, the audience reading this here, unfortunately for you probably did not read Hegel as a teen and then grasp Althusser so you do need Hegel
>>1036322 Woops, you accidentally didn't quote the whole sentence somehow 🙄 You have yet to give an example illustrating how his lack of familiarity with Hegel leads to a lack in his understanding of Marx. If you can't give a single example for that, how am I supposed to be convinced that Hegel is important for understanding Marx (which was your original point, in case you have 🙄🙄🙄forgotten🙄🙄🙄 that).
>>1035659 i believe he's on cockshott's readlist
>>1035586 >complex math shit what kind of prerequisite math do i have to learn to be able to read these? or are they all considered solid introductions on calculus, linear algebra, etc? and is that the fucking starcraft font
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that feel when you're developing a resource-based economic system independent from cockshott material im only reading it now, and its basically similar to my own, although there's a difference mine can be integrated into a video game for example also mine is more resource-based (more point on resource flow) i can already simulate a part of soviet economy (some trucks production and smelting furnace) also now i try to simulate a part of medieval/viking era economy i can create some basic things with it like stone walls or bows with arrows, all strictly from resources / with resource data and its all computational planning system / solver can be added too later
>>1038735 this is great anon, is it open source?
>>1036214 No he didnt.
>>1038735 Is that minecraft?
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>>1038765 i uploaded current work ZLib licensed think of it as of something very experimental and unfinished https://git.disroot.org/coaljoe/auts >>1038934 not quite, it is closer to Blackvoxel i never played minecraft as well
>>1038468 yeah its starcraft font. Most of cockshott's work doesn't take much math except classical econophysics. I mean his books. Some of his research papers are more mathematically complicated. The linear algebra book is pretty standalone if you under stand high school level math (algebra, geometry, trig, etc.). Same for the calc book but i would recommend James Stewart's Calculus: Concepts and Contexts instead (try libgen). I'm re-teaching myself calculus also, I learned it in school but have been slowly forgetting it
>>1039000 >uses obscure dialect of golang that no ones ever heard of stay weird, leftypol. stay weird
>>1039072 >no-one heard of <19k stars on github does not compute V is hardly obscure, it is just not very functional as of now
>>1038735 LEGEND TIER, PLEASE KEEP US UP TO DATE.
>>1039000 >written in V why dude, why. fucking really
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Remember when that one Freud Cigar invited PC to 8/leftypol/, and it almost happened, but then PC was too put off by the way the Freud Cigar messed with his last name and ended up not coming?
NEW VIDEO Eliminating inequality https://youtu.be/MLDZI9dy0KE
>>1039385 probably for the best, honestly
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this was wholesome
So can anybody with actual training in econ/stats tell me how sound Cockshott's work actually is? I wanna get into his stuff but I've heard rumblings from other leftists that's he a bit of a crank, so I'm debating with myself if it's worth the time.
>>1039072 Ryan Gosling really is the walking embodiment of OG wojak
>>1041619 if these other leftists your heard saying Cockshott is a crank are on twitter throw their opinion in the fucking trash. There is a gang of idiots like Muke who dismiss Cockshott for being utopian or whatever the shit and never go deeper into it. Read his short articles where he debates and responds to criticisms of the LTV and neolibs shill, also, TANS is very approachable and the math in it is explained, you fucking idiot.
>>1041651 Thanks, but also holy fuck chill the fuck out.
>>1041619 His social and philosophical takes are trash. The rest is fine.
>>1041668 Nah, he's correct all around. He has a lifetime of experience and thinking.
>>1041619 Just go in yourself and then decide. Cockshott isn't big enough to have any critics of worth, and asking in a Cockshott general if he is sound is pointless for obvious reasons. The only criticism I would have of him, although I am not trained in econ/stats, is that his historical materialism is kinda pointless since it depends on things you can't know. He even admits this when talking about Markov models of history, saying: "To get a realistic parameterisation of Markov models you need a lot of instances. Although we only have one world history,but we there are many instances of social formations in it, so some sort empirical parameterisation might be attempted" It's a rather wonky foundation, but beyond that I feel like every leftist should give him a go since it's free firepower against neolib arguments. His philosophical views are too a bit weird. His reading of Hegel and his takes about made me stare in confusion. His argument makes me literally think of a copypasta about Hegel that is as follows: So anyway, I'm a plumber and I don't have a lot of experience with German transcendental idealism, so excuse my thinly veiled disgust. In Chapter 3 of the "Phenomenolology of Spirits", entitled What the Doormouse Said, Biff Hegel claims that "spirit is a bone." Now, that's a bit puzzling to me because it appears to be obviously false. I know bones. I often have to fish them out of garbage disposals, drains, septic tanks, etc. Spirit is pretty much the complete opposite of a bone; I have never had the ultimate cause of a clog turn out to be the World Spirit embodied by Napoleon, for example. I've never had anything resembling the Emperor cause one of my customers to call on my technical services. So if you'll permit me to smugface a bit, isn't it time for y'all to leave the "Cave" of your respective parents' basements and learn a trade? Thanks. -Joe t. P.
>>1035519 This, idc if you disagree with him, but Cockshott's mountain of work undeniably warrants at least a Nobel Nomination. Well, since we know that he's actively running national economic simulations on computers, maybe he'll win it once he undeniably proves that a planned economy can work across the entire world.
>>1038735 Based, I'm trying to run some calculations on labor-time implementation in the lithium sector (for a hypothetical leftward turn in Bolivia) myself. That's pretty awesome, are you using any linear programming?
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Ok, this is how my convo with Cockshott played out. He says to distribute this article so I just leave it here.
>>1034889 not OP but I think they were trying to say Cockshott is referring to a very Hegelian concept (which Marx took) despite his statement that Hegel is pointless. Basically just saying Hegel is not pointless.
From Chapter 5.7 of HTWW. What's the difference between surplus value and profit?
>>1050425 On the macro level, surplus value and profit are the same. But on the level of the individual firm, magnitude of profit and surplus value extracted can be very different.
>>1050526 How so?
>>1039000 I am digusted. Port that to Java now!
>>1050540 That really belongs in QTDDTOT as it is about concepts in Marx. The working class works longer than necessary to just produce what sustains it, that's the surplus. Surplus is created where people work, but profits of individual capitalists depend on their ingoing and outgoing money flows. How much money you got is what determines how much of the surplus pie you can snatch.
>>1051107 why java
We got a summary of How the World Works, come check it out and improve it. If you understand the mathematical parts of Cockshott's work you can add that to this or other articles: https://leftypedia.org/wiki/How_the_World_Works:_The_Story_of_Human_Labor_from_Prehistory_to_the_Modern_Day
>>1051107 Java is fucking cancer
>>1044607 Im out of the loop, what did you write in your article? (Also if its a translation or a new work, consider uploading it to new multitude)
>>1058042 Translation of an article by Glushkov, here's the thread: >>1004714 >uploading it to new multitude No. The article is too long and complicated. The translator isn't a native speaker and I suspect somebody who only speaks English is missing context from the original necessary to make the translation perfect. Nobody in that thread was sure about understanding the proposal. It appears to be a step back relative to TANS since it plans with very low detail, which shouldn't be surprising given the time it was written. This means it's mainly of historical interest and not that good as an actual proposal today. Also, the guy running New Multitude appears to have little interest in economics and has refused to publish shorter simple pieces on cybernetics before.
>>1050540 Surplus has to be realized by selling stuff, this is why Keynesianism is a thing in economics in the first place
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>>1058153 I don't agree that it is a step back. It is a different approach. With more computational technology you can plan in more detail, and reply times become almost instant. Glushkov has a different approach to optimization itself. He says that in a classical linear optimization models a-la Cockshott you always optimize relative to a given level of technical development, every time your technical coefficients change you need to recalculate the whole matrix, ie it assumes that area P can't change. On the other hand, the core of Glushkov's optimization approach is in purposefully changing this area P, by developing and integrating new machinery, production processes etc, ie by purposefully changing these technical coefficients. And he especially emphasised the need of continuous optimization and therefore continuous planning. Plus Cockhotts approach is more directive, top-down, while Glushkov's is more collaborative, it's in the name even, it's assumes dialog between different levels of planning hierarchy.
>>1067564 Other anon here. I've noticed this problem with Cockshott's proposal as well, that it seems difficult to adjust when changes in technology happen. A continuous process would be more preferable. Haven't read Glushkov yet, but it sounds like he has some compelling ideas. On the other hand, if previous solutions can be reused and only modest changes are done to the linear program, then computing a new solution should be relatively cheap.
>>1058153 The editor of new multitude is constantly asking for people to write articles explaining cybernetics though.
>>1067564 But you don't pre calculate anything in linear optimisations in the first place with modern optimisation approaches so the concern of reducing computational demands by reusing cached data is moot. A modern day economy can be recalculated relatively quickly, well within the timespans of a yearly or longer period economic plan. I might read your translated article some time soon though once I've got time.
>>1082423 >But you don't pre calculate anything in linear optimisations in the first place with modern optimisation approaches so the concern of reducing computational demands by reusing cached data is moot. A modern day economy can be recalculated relatively quickly, well within the timespans of a yearly or longer period economic plan. This is >>1080704. You'll want to be able to adjust relatively quickly in case of disaster or whatever. Preferably on the order of days or hours.
>>1082446 I do believe that is entirely possible with how powerful both computers and linear optisation has become. Within hours that is. I really wanted to go through the numbers but all of the complex mathematical notation in all the papers and my lack of formal education on maths prevents me from reading them.
>>1067564 When i try to read the translated article that anon posted I feel like I'm missing something. Should I first read cited source 1 2 and 3?
>>1067564 >every time your technical coefficients change you need to recalculate the whole matrix This is false (it's not true that everything is a direct or indirect input for everything else) and it doesn't take an hour to recalculate the whole matrix.
>>1082423 >A modern day economy can be recalculated relatively quickly, well within the timespans of a yearly or longer period economic plan. the problem is twofold first you need to integrate technological change into your planning ideally you need to recalculate every time the technical coefficients change, and they change all the time, so you need to recalculate all the time technical change is something external to this optimization approach, it does not account for it second is the human dimension simply, you need people who would implement your plans to agree to these plans, not just in end targets sense, but also in optimization sense. You can't formalize optimization that accounts for technological change, because you can't formalize humans humans is the source of technological change, you need to account for them, that's why you need human input into optimization if you want to account for technological change
>>1082572 sources are in russian but I don't think you need to read anything else to get the gist of it basically, idea is that people make optimization propositions on various levels of planning hierarchy to reduce deficit and unbalance vectors, the computer evaluates these propositions, and accepts or rejects them when people decide that optimization is over or they run out of time, this accepted set of propositions constitutes the plan.
>>1044607 Brainlet here, what does this tell us about the feasibility of real time planning? Is it feasible? Is it possible to readily readjust the parameters after a shock/ tech change in an acceptable timeframe (i'd say 20 days for a sudden shock, 60 for tech change)?
>>1082814 >Is it feasible? theoretically? yes >Is it possible to readily readjust the parameters after a shock/ tech change in an acceptable timeframe (i'd say 20 days for a sudden shock, 60 for tech change)? I don't understand what you mean by sudden change technological change is accounted for in that optimization propositions that humans make account for technological change, ie you reduce a deficit by introducing a new production process that reduces deficit of some resource
>>1082710 >technical change is something external to this optimization approach, it does not account for it Eh, so? It's not like you can predict technological change and if you could you can integrate it. >You can't formalize optimization that accounts for technological change, because you can't formalize humans What do you mean? This just seems to contradict your implied claim that you can predict technological change. Unless I'm missing something. >that's why you need human input into optimization if you want to account for technological change How does that make it account for technological change and how would it even work to have "human input"?
>>1082869 (If I just need to read the article that's fine I will try to)
>>1082869 >How does that make it account for technological change and how would it even work to have "human input"? <In practice, this means the following: analyzing the vectors of resource deficitsd(T), the summary department of Gosplan determines the order (priority) of tasks to eliminate deficits and unbalances in human-machine mode. One of the simplest strategies for determining this order is to give priority to the maximum relative deficits and unbalances. In other words, if the point Mi (the required plan) is outside the acceptable area Pi, then the change in the area Pi is managed by reducing the maximum of the relative deficits and unbalances that exist. Having received information about the maximum relative deficits and unbalances, the industries, together with the industry departments of Gosplan, concentrate their efforts on developing specific proposals aimed at reducing them. In Gosplan, these proposals are evaluated by the Central element of the DISPLAN (the inter-industry balance model). For this purpose, the values of vectors d(T)and ∆(T) are quickly recalculated for each proposal. In [1] was proposed a method for such rapid recalculation that requires an order of kn2 operations, where k - is a constant not exceeding 20, and n- is the dimension of the aggregated model of inter-industry balance (it is assumed that m≈n). <The adoption of such proposals (one by one or in groups) is precisely the agreed decisions on changes to the plan that determine the optimization process.
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>>1082939 kek >>1082552 >I do believe that is entirely possible with how powerful both computers and linear optisation has become. Within hours that is. I've been toying with the idea of a PhD project in this direction. Seems worthwhile. >I really wanted to go through the numbers but all of the complex mathematical notation in all the papers and my lack of formal education on maths prevents me from reading them. Reading a book on linear algerbra would be a good start. >>1082814 I'd say it's eminently feasible. We could make use of supercomputers on the order of one CPU per industry. There is no parallellized LP solver at the moment I think, but writing one shouldn't take more than half a year.
>>1085542 >I've been toying with the idea of a PhD project in this direction. Seems worthwhile. God speed big brain anon >Reading a book on linear algerbra would be a good start I've never had a formal maths education so it's super hard for me to read any scientific papers involving programming stuff despite being one. I wish they wouldn't needlessly use such complex notation.
>>1085685 >I've never had a formal maths education so it's super hard for me to read any scientific papers involving programming stuff despite being one. I wish they wouldn't needlessly use such complex notation. Without the notation papers would get incredibly long and tedious. Imagine explaining the concepts like eigenvectors every time. Assuming a certain level of education in the reader saves ink and time.
>>1085938 But this, combined with the fact that math notation is hell to try and research autodidactically, makes science super inaccessible to the population. It reminds me of the meme "a monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors, what's the problem?". Just look at any Wikipedia page about even basic mathematical concepts you learn in highschool. It's so filled to the bring with jargon and bullshit unneccecary notation it is impossible for laymen to even begin to learn it. It's just institutionalised gatekeeping, just like the Bible was made in Latin to gatekeep, maths has unneccecary notation everywhere to make sure only people who spend 4 years on a formal education can understand it.
>>1086732 What notation do you propose instead? The purpose of notation is to make your point clear to other academics. If you want to participate in the conversation then you need to acquire learns, just like how if you want to participate in Marxist discourse you need to actually read Marx.
>>1087429 Help them acquire learns comrade
>>1087475 What, teach them all of calculus and linear algebra on an Albanian competitive basket weaving forum?
>>1086732 The notation and jargon are the easiest part of mathematics. The reason "a monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors" is difficult to understand is that it is a very concise statement where the referents are all very broad concepts with somewhat intricate structure. (A related meme are all the Medium articles making great pains to analogize monads as something they're not; "A monad is like a burrito in the following ways ... well you understand burritos so now you also understand monads!" This is seldom a useful approach, although it certainly sullies the prestige of the exposition.) I could equally well say "a linebacker is just a defensive lineman in a game of gridiron football," and if you were sufficiently unfamiliar with gridiron football you would be understandably confused by all sorts of stuff associated with that sentence: what is gridiron football? Oh, it's a contact sport. So it must be played with ball and feet and somehow a gridiron is involved. Hrm, no, it's not a proper ball and feet factor in only incidentally. This sounds silly because all of those confusions are either ones you don't have because you are incidentally familiar with gridiron football, or because you can simply attend a football game and start understanding a great deal immediately through direct experience. Try to appreciate how challenging it would be to communicate to someone who has never seen the game and is not capable of seeing it directly what a "linebacker" is, just by telling them the rules. Imagine that they only just started learning English, were blind, and had never played any contact sport. They would surely have to commit some considerable effort to really have a solid understanding of a linebacker, yes? Maybe it would take them a few weeks of focused study to be able to answer questions about linebackers like "where is the linebacker located relative to the quarterback and line of scrimmage in an offensive T formation?" This is what it is like with math. Seldom are you in the good fortune of being able to experience it directly. It's easy enough for me to draw you examples of categories, but I can't draw for you every category. With greater effort, I can draw for you an example of an endofunctor, but not every endofunctor. With a heroic effort, I could maybe draw for you a schematic of two simple objects in the category of endofunctors of a category and the arrows between them. But you are simply never going to be in the position to see the whole picture as you do with many things that are immediately accessible to you: you'll have to grope around in the dark, largely on your own efforts, understanding partially and misunderstanding a great deal at first. But you know what you can pick up in a couple minutes? The jargon. Pick up a mathematical encyclopedia and you can start saying stuff like "Every U(1) presheaf fibered over a Calabi-Yau orbifold whose Frobenius curvature vanishes almost-everywhere can be decomposed as a direct sum of Virasoro descendants of the (2,3) Gaussian q-algebroid." You know, like you can listen to an American football game and straightaway say that "Tom Brady needs to move the chains before the 3rd down at the 40-yard line or else the turnover field goal is going to put the Buckaneers in a bad position to capitalize on the hole in the Bulls' defensive gameplan."
>>1088013 is there any pdf that quickly explains maths notation?
>>1088249 There is not a settled-upon general notation for mathematics across all fields. And there really couldn't be because there are only so many glyphs in the alphabets commonly used-- Latin, Greek, and Hebrew-- and mathematics is an extremely vast field where people invent new things all the time. Sometimes advanced textbooks (e.g. Mirror Symmetry and Algebraic Geometry by Katz and Cox) will lead with a table of mathematical notation they use in the book so that people using the text as a reference can rapidly orient themselves. If you're trying to learn mathematical notation before reading a mathematical text then you are putting the cart before the horse. I can recommend to you some books if you can tell me what you're interested in and what your background is.
>>1087429 I have always dreamed to make a program that can take mathematical notation (in whatever encoding script) and expand it/transform it into its simpler parts or pseudo code For example, a sum of 0 to n could be transformed into it's component parts or a sentence saying what I just wrote, rather than a Greek capital e with 2-3 numbers as round it. That would give people the ability to expand aspects of the notations into more verbose layman understandable notation. Since math is objective and rule based this should be possible. Barring that, a way copy paste notation into an analyser and be able to click or hover over parts of the notation. And an effort by Wikipedia to force a "simple explanation" section on every maths related article would be nice so the explanation isn't filled with jargon and unneccecary notation.
>>1088843 Why not just learn the math instead? I'm going to point out that not everyone needs to have expertise in these things. There's enough other things to do on the coding side. I asked Cockshott the other day what became of the ukgreen project, and the response was that one of the biggest problems was actually converting all the damn spreadsheets into a form that the solver can make use of. This is something that any halfway decent coder can help with.
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>>1086732 >there is a lack of popular explainers on how to read math notation the education level of the general public is dogshit under the current system, congrats on being the first to point that out. >this directly implies a bad actor in the form of evil STEMfags anyone can hum a melody, but reading musical notes takes some learning. it's not "gatekeeping", it's a standard that is used among people who are on the same page. wikipedia is a reference for math nerds and autists, not for beginners. go to youtube and google, start with 3blue1brown who has intro vids on both calculus and vectors. if these are still too high-level for you (no shame in that, they assume a certain level of knowledge) then download an algebra textbook from libgen or use youtube. for the record, comrade, i'm in the same boat - self-learning math that I never learned in school in order to understand Cockshott. the papers are hard for me too - but there's no need to lash out and call it a conspiracy.
Posting some important stuff that was missing here: - Cockshott's and Cottrell's critique of market socialism - Transition to 21st century socialism in the European Union by Cockshott, Cottrell and Dieterich - Socialism and innovation by David Kotz
>>1034592 Who is that in the pic?
>>1107797 Camila vallejo
>>1031262 radlib doesn't come from stupidpol you retard newfag, kill yourself.
>>1082552 >>1086732 Do you have Anki installed? For those who don't know what Anki is: It's a famous free flashcard program, meaning cards with front and back used to memorize factoids. Anki is mostly used for language learning, but it can also be used for geography etc. Look here https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks/math (requires javascript to display anything :/) and download some decks and try them.
Just a question about Cockshott. I once saw someone say that Cockshott was a Marxist Leninist, but in the same way Trotsky was, he was not stating that Cockshott was a Trotskyist, but rather learned from Marx and Lenin and did not subscribe to the standard Marxism-Leninism as codified under Stalin. How true is this? Is Cockshott just a standard ML, except he has a theory of using computers and shit and is somewhat more decentralized in theory?
this is one of my fav. threads please critique this shit: >>1127253 thx
>be me >have read le How the World Worx >found tlike 30 typos, mistakes, etc. per chapter <I will actually pay ANOTHER 10 bucks to comrade FuckFuck just to be be able to do a Public Service Announcement to his cause, >literally doing the fucking job his supposed PUBLISHER and supposed shit actually (supposedly) got thru, so! Yes, fuckers, I'll be literally doing bourgeois publishing companies by giving Paul Dickshott AN ACTUAL read-it-thru, while telling him that he did good. Yes, faggot, I'll literally have TO PAY to make something commie-related good. IKR! kys
>>1127674 >crying about 10 bucks <having actually translated two chapter of his TaNS into my native language because I'm fucking based ><><><><><> still pay 10 bucks on CockCock's Patrean to tell him that his new book is fill to the brim to typos, etc.
>>1105863 I've read a bit of "Transition to 21st century socialism in the European Union" and I'm puzzled, honestly. How can he even imagine something like that ever happening? Is he more utopic that we would like to think? Has anyone read it?
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>>1105863 >>1127716 So, at first, private industries would still exist?
>>1127834 If i have learned one thing is to disregard Dickblast when he talks about policy strategies. This is kinda cringe indeed.
https://cibcom.org/planificacion-economica-en-especie-de-bucle-abierto/ NEW CIBCOM ARTICLE ON PLANNING If there's any Spanish speaking anon here it would be HUGE to have a translation of this, which is an article outlining a model of planning starting from Cockshott's premises and extending them.
Someone that read Cockshott have an answer for this?: >>1116798
>>1116798 >Just a question about Cockshott.I once saw someone say that Cockshott was a Marxist Leninist, but in the same way Trotsky was, he was not stating that Cockshott was a Trotskyist, but rather learned from Marx and Lenin and did not subscribe to the standard Marxism-Leninism as codified under Stalin. How true is this? Is Cockshott just a standard ML, except he has a theory of using computers and shit and is somewhat more decentralized in theory? >>1129756 >Someone that read Cockshott have an answer for this?: I have read a lot of Cockshott's writings, he tries to solve the same issues as ML and pursues similar priorities, but he forwards very different methods. The super-structural effect of Stalin enacting purges in the party and state bureaucracy is evacuating people from influential positions that could be tempted to sell off the collective property of the workers state for personal gain. Queue the smug ass-hole Milton Friedman gloating that not enough virtuous people exist to make socialism happen. Friedman was wrong, Stalin more than made up the lack in virtuousness with determination and heavy handedness. But upholding such party discipline until prehistory is transcended is a tough nut to crack, that shattered the teeth of many communist parties. Cockshott does not advocate for purges, he completely navigates around the issue with statistical methods that pre-emptively negate it. The neo-liberals hollowed out the new-deal in America, the socdems in Europe, and the MLs in Russia like a synthesis of a woodpecker-cuckoo bird. Cockshott advocates for random selection democracy that crowns statistically representative politicians by lot, not by election campaigns, that favour those with deep pockets to pay for electoral spectacle. Attempting to enforce economic interests of a minority are by design overruled by that system and counter revolution can not buy political legitimacy like in a representative democracy. Using computers for planning is the road not taken in the Soviet Union, Cockshott proposes we borrow from the alternative timeline where the Soviets made very different economic choices and listened to people like Victor Glushkov. Cockshott differers from orthodox Leninism in that it does not try to solve problems with revolutionary willpower. Progress via a state of flow not via the impact of a steam-hammer.
>>1127674 You can buy how the world works? Also first edition books are often full of spelling errors because publishers are incompetent. Who gives a shit.
>>1130007 Worth noting here that cockshott's method of sortition also sidesteps one of Turchin's reasons for collapse https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/can-history-predict-future/616993/ https://archive.is/HXeC4 Overproduction of elites
>>1130007 >listened to people like Victor Glushkov The narrative that party leaders canned the project because they felt "threatened" is something Glushkov came up himself, the real story is much more complicated. Gosplan continued to work on the system after he ragequit, implementing it by gradually automating manual calculations and statistics gathering and networking them together, by the 80s the entire plan was calculated using computers and had a network with planning organs in regional centers, but counterrevolution obviously killed it. They projected that the whole thing would be completed by 00s. One of the last jobs of the system was to calculate how many people will lose their jobs after transition. It correctly predicted 40 million.
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>>1130166 >One of the last jobs of the system was to calculate how many people will lose their jobs after transition. It correctly predicted 40 million. Communist planning is right again
>>1130142 I feel like that worldview is almost completely garbage. There are a few nuggets of truth in there. This is shit Marx could have told you.
>>1130166 Sounds very interesting do you a source were i can read more about that
>>1130286 All the info is in russian, western historians and journalists aren't interested in socialist planning it seems, other than Glushkov's institute using his one sided story as PR.
>>1130287 You can send it I know some russians
>>1130142 >theantlanticcom article interesting but also a bit labor aristocratic, education is not the cause of elite production. >>1130166 >>1130245 >One of the last jobs of the system was to calculate how many people will lose their jobs after transition. >It correctly predicted 40 million. What nonsense is this ? unemployment is caused by overworking people. If technology reduces the need for inputting labor hours, society reduces the overall workday. Unemployment is ideologically motivated terror.
>>1130320 He's talking about transition to capitalism, the system calculated which enterprises will go under without state support.
>>1130287 I read russian fluently, mind linking me?
>>1130007 So you're saying that Cockshott is an unorthodox Leninist then? Because I don't think you're saying that he's approaching councilists, Situationists, autonomists and communization theorists in distance from Leninism? That's at least far from the impression he gives off in his online lectures imo; he frequently quotes Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Bordiga on one recent occasion. I've never seen him quote any non-Leninist communist now that I think about it.
>>1130355 >tendency boxes in a socialist ecology What ever you seek to find out with this eludes me and I don't know how to respond to your question in a meaningful way. I think that Cockshott updates Marxist theory in response to changing material conditions, with political lessons learned from the past, changes in the technical base of production, and much more.
>>1130485 I intend to synthesize some Marxist tendencies on the communist left & center in the future. You've been of aid, don't get me wrong. I guess I needed a second voice to corroborate some interpretations of mine so far before I make a rough meta-structure, conceptually. Conclusion: Cockshott is an ML, but on its farthest left. He is not a Trotskyist or a left-communist, because he deems the ML states as having achieved socialism, among other such standard ML positions on what they've called Actually Existing Socialism. His proposed praxis, by contrast, is almost completely like that of council communists (excluding cybernetics). I intend to help to find the new grounding on the interim between the communist left and center, something like: a vanguard organization guiding the establishment of the DotP and in turn lower-phase communism, while using a hybrid of centralism and decentralization, modelling off historical lessons (the wins of Stalinist strategies in term of unitarism and warfare) as well as the utilization of material developments in terms of cybernetics making the way for actual communism (rather than socialism) today.
>>1130595 This is the Leninism of the 21st century most likely, more evolved than its predecessor.
>>1130595 >tendency maths no comment, i can't tie my brains into knots like that >while using a hybrid of centralism and decentralization Cockshott opposes discrete economic sub-organisations like firms or companies, everything is flows of material and inputs of human labor time. Putting a label on this is hard, maybe centralised with distributed control ? >making the way for actual communism (rather than socialism) today. Cockshott's planning system became technically viable in the mid to late 90s How long a transition from the current economic structure to a cybernetic one would take depends on political factors like the desirable rate of change.
>>1127716 What distinguishes the realist from the utopian is not a refusal to think through future scenarios, but a refusal to chain oneself to one highly specific scenario. You can just ask Cockshott whether he believes that what he described there looks likely to happen in the near future; I bet his answer is no. >>1129435 LOL that article is a translation into Spanish. Here you go: https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.01539
Hacker News, a popular tech news hub, discussed cybernetic planning. Thoughts? There may be some things of interest here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25084479
>>1116798 Cockshott was in the CPGB in the 80s, so he was likely a ML in his youth. Ironically also Cockshott is the kind of person who would've been attacked by Gorbachevite reformists who accused anyone advocating for planning of being a hardcore Stalinist. Now I think he's just more worried about fixing flaws of past socialism attempts and advancing scientific theory. You could ask him by email if you're that concerned.
Hey nerds did I just solve the transformation problem while also proving the very core mechanism of capital causes it to be bad at calculation a societally optimal labour distribution? >>1134776
>>1134796 Just sounds like Marx' theory of how the organic composition of capital affects the rate of profit. Cockshott and Cottrell have provided results indicating that this theory is indeed correct. Cockshott makes an efficiency argument in one of his videos, where he compares Pareto efficiencies under feudalism and under capitalism. He comes to the conclusion that feudalism was more efficient in terms of output per unit of labour than capitalism is. Something like 80% vs 20% for feudal England vs farms in the US' southern states today. This inefficiency is likely due to smaller farms not being able to afford the constant capital necessary to increase production. These small-time farmers' labour is therefore mostly wasted.
>>1136439 >compares Pareto efficiencies
>>1134796 >>1136439 The theory of the organic composition of capital affecting the rate of profit also leads to some interesting results for the software industry. Because constant capital requirements are low, software firms can make enormous profits from its workers without having to exploit them as much as say industrial workers. But because Porky is the way he his, we see massive exploitation anyway, especially in the videogame industry.
>>1136458 Are you just being smug, or do you have an actual point? Here's the video in question: https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=8PuvPEoNK5o The point is to compare the actual output of all farms compared to the potential output if each farm used the optimal method that currently available technology allows. That is, if all farms operated at the Pareto frontier. It turns out feudalism was better at this than capitalism. From the video: >Domesday manors in 1086: 64.3% >US California farms in 1977: 28%
>>1136532 It's just that I have never seen anybody who knows what Pareto efficiency is talk like that, so I figured that you just used the term to sound more sciencey without knowing what the term refers to. An allocation either is Pareto efficient or not. You can compare several PE situations by some other standard. (I now understand how you meant what you said, the point is you shouldn't use the formulation you used.)
>>1136637 I was a bit sloppy with the formalism, I agree. A more correct way of putting it is that the study cited by Cockshott in the video compares how far away from Pareto efficiency both systems are.
>>1131473 thanks for the link anon
>>1137322 >Current day orthodox (mainstream) economists focusing solely on non-existing microscopic “problems”, and using their own logically inconsistent, unfalsifiable, competing pet theories to try and “disprove” it, does not aid anyone in understanding what LTV actually is and how it actually works. Pointing out that neoclassical economics is unfalsifiable right away like this might scare away normies. A better approach might be to bring up right there that both Smith and Ricardo considered LTV to be correct. You might throw in that as a result of Marx and Engels' work, the idea of there being supply/demand curves had to be invented, to try and explain away where equilibrium prices come from. Then hit 'em with Cockshott showing that the supply/demand curve theory is unfalsifiable. Overall I r8 it 5/8
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just dumping some shit currently working on loadears so different economic sets / data can be used. like both soviet and medieval, can be loaded separately, because now it is actually in text files (currently json, but maybe jsonnet in future). that means that different systems can be simulated and tuned, and adding new objects is easier and some of this can be reused across systems (like base set of elements like water) i plan to return to soviet set and try to simulate some shit separately, also to fix few issues; the work is not uploaded yet (to the git mirror) please note that it is of shitpost-quality now, because nobody actually did any cleanup / restructuring / rewrite yet a little overview of RBE can be found here: https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Resource-Based_Economy
Has anyone made a torrent with all Paul Cockshott YouTube channel videos? If not I will do it, we never know with Google what could happen to his account.
>>1150399 please do that
Everything goes by cuckshot plans, then why even organize or educate?
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>>1150718 > Everything goes by cuckshot plans, then why even organize or educate? we won't always people like you for instance aren't salvageable. You will be placed in comfortable living conditions to rot away
>>1150718 Do you organize and educate? I mean you sound like a fucking retard who is not capable of doing any of those things you know.
>>1150723 keep working on this and posting your progress here anon
Just started programming a month ago and finished an introductory python course. Can you recommend me some projects to do to become a better programming? Hopefully something related to communism. Danke.
>>1151092 >Hopefully something related to communism. well you can undig iichantra sources and hack it, the game has lukewarm communist themes and graphics but it is written in C++ iirc and the codebase is relatevily bad
I'm looking for Ck's writing(s) against implementing UBI under capitalism. Plz halp.
>>1151312 I disagree with him.
>>1151332 Maybe you should comment on the post/video. What specifically do you disagree on?
>>1151092 Perhaps you can come up with a variant of the harmony algorithm (TANS chapter 6)? While the version in TANS starts from a random position my guess is that it works faster to start from a scenario that ignores that we live in a world of integers (we pretend for a while that everything is a liquid) and with the overall preliminary goal of getting exactly the same plan percentage for everything produced. Then we round down the outputs to integers and throw resources freed up by that back into the common pool. And that allocation is then the starting configuration for something like the harmony algorithm. The current version of harmony has a generic assumption built in about how well two products substitute for each other, which is entirely based on how close the tentative assignment of resources to the corresponding production processes is to the products' target quantities (diminishing marginal utility), irrespective of what the two products actually are. I don't demand reading minds about about all sorts of possible substitution patterns, but I think at the very least there should be three levels of distinguishing how similar to each other products are, to better simulate how well having more of one product compensates for having fewer units of another. That's also why it makes sense to start with a situation where every little production goal reaches the same score. If you do that, the overall score of the situation is obvious, even if the rules about substitution between products are very complex.
>>1150399 Here's the torrent with all of Paul Cockshott's YouTube channel videos up to 27/10/2020 (i.e. the most recent one): Magnet link: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:d5e5cc7a91228fef2ea213f816b27cfea8185961&dn=Paul%5FCockshott%5F%28October%5F27th%5F2020%29&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.opentrackr.org%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.to%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.me%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.internetwarriors.net%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.leechers-paradise.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.cyberia.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fexodus.desync.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fexplodie.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fp4p.arenabg.ch%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Ftracker1.itzmx.com%3A8080%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker3.itzmx.com%3A6961%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.zerobytes.xyz%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.tiny-vps.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ds.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.stealth.si%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.si%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.torrent.eu.org%3A451%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fretracker.lanta-net.ru%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fopen.acgnxtracker.com%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.moeking.me%3A6969%2Fannounce Torrent file: https://anonymousfiles.io/RileL0Sn/
>>1155949 based anon
>>1147660 This seems based on an unreal level
New Cockshott video which includes a new desktop reveal and evaluates the Julia programming language for planning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuQpzKW3_e8
>>1158492 holy shit an actual high quality audio this is a new era of cockshott
>>1158499 I'm guessing he used his Patreon dosh to buy a new mic along with his new desktop. Also hearing that he got a contract from a publisher to write a new book about planning is quite exciting. Can't wait to read it.
>>1158492 Based Dickblast, happy to see him thriving. We should start pushing him more around though, cause he'll probably be around making videos for only 3 or 4 other years i fear.
>>1158492 Finally decent audio Cockshott needs to brush up on recent developments in dense linear algorithms. Matrix-matrix multiplication is sub-cubic these days, with a tentative lower limit of O(N²log N)
>>1160143 >Matrix-matrix multiplication is sub-cubic these days, with a tentative lower limit of O(N²log N) Tell us how comrade, preferably w/ references
>>1160143 But economic plannings arent dense they are sparse, so why shouldnt we focus on sparse matrix algorithms?
>>1160145 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_multiplication_algorithm#Sub-cubic_algorithms Best so far is roughly O(N^2.373). The O(N² log N) bound is due to Raz. No algorithm with that complexity is yet known. Integer multiplication is O(N log N) since 2017.
>>1160157 I'm just reacting to Cockshott's video, where he's doing dense matrices. Of course sparse systems are easier to deal with. For sparse linear programming, Lee-Sidford is currently the fastest method: O(L*n^2.5). I suspect LP can be done in O(nnz(A)n). I know an exact solution (no L) can be found in O(nnz(A)n²).
>>1160687 I'm retarded van you explain me what A is nns is the avarage elements per multiplication right
>>1160671 In the one case, n is the dimension of the matrix while in the other case n is the number of digits in the numbers being multiplied. So it seems like we shouldn't be comparing these directly, since multiplying two n-by-n matrices whose entries are N-digit integers should be an operation that scales with both n and N.
>>1160805 A is an n x n matrix that defines the sparse system you're optimizing over. For example a Leontief matrix. nnz(A) is the number of non-zero elements in A. For a dense system, nnz(A) = n². >>1160882 Of course. But there may well exist an FFT-like algorithm for multiplying matrices, just like there is one for multiplying integers.
>>1161354 I see. >But there may well exist an FFT-like algorithm for multiplying matrices If you can find the patience to explain it to retards like me who never got a formal training in mathematics, how is matrix multiplication used in optimising a linear system? Also, I read there's optimisations that give a good approximation. Is the speed boost significant for that? Considering the margin of error from bad information might be larger than the inaccuracy of heuristic methods?
>>1160143 leave a comment on his video
>>1161354 Your explanation has nothing to do with what it is I've said.
>>997358 Figured this would be as good a place as any to ask, but whats the best way to go about learning to program? I'm taking a class and doing some online tutorials but I wanted to get some input from programming comrades on their journey.
http://pod.twinkrev.com/the-nuclear-option-w-leigh-phillips-0 pretty good podcast with leigh phillips (author of people's republic of walmart)
>>1162467 I'll take a look there to, thanks
>>1161621 >If you can find the patience to explain it to retards like me who never got a formal training in mathematics, how is matrix multiplication used in optimising a linear system? It's an operation that tends to pop up. For example when you do least-squares, you're solving the system A'Ax = A'b, so you want to compute A'A (' = transpose) in a reasonable amount of time. >Also, I read there's optimisations that give a good approximation. Is the speed boost significant for that? Considering the margin of error from bad information might be larger than the inaccuracy of heuristic methods? Depending on the problem, an approximation or heuristic may be good enough. Cockshott's Harmony algorithm is an example of a heuristic. But in a recent email I got from him he admits that it gets stuck for certain problems. For sparse linear systems it is quite common to use iterative methods that repeatedly improves an approximation of the solution.
>>1162491 If anyone is interested in learns, this site has a bunch of free books as PDFs on this stuff: https://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~saad/books.html
>>1161621 >Also, I read there's optimisations that give a good approximation. Is the speed boost significant for that? There's a computer-science book for a general audience called "Algorithms to Live By" which presents three approximation ideas (chapter 8): Constraint relaxation: Remove some of the constraints of the actual problem and see how far you can get, then add them back in. Continuous relaxation: Pretend something that is really integers can actually be split up (and at no cost). After solving that, look again at the original problem. Lagrangian relaxation: Replace some constraints with merely a score penalty, see where this gets you, then try to get closer to the original problem again. One idea I had: You can replace a high number of different inputs (only if you are sure that the high number causes you a big problem, of course) with a lower number of input-mix baskets. A production process that requires a specific input-mix then requests units of a basket or of several different baskets that contain the actually used stuff as a subset. Whatever output mix is possible in that arrangement is also possible IRL.
>>1164804 >You can replace a high number of different inputs (only if you are sure that the high number causes you a big problem, of course) with a lower number of input-mix baskets This is aggregate planning and it is what the USSR did. We're trying to move away from that. This is why Cockshott stresses that disaggregated data is absolutely crucial.
>>1166144 Read the post again. You are not supposed to do relaxation for funsies, you are supposed to do it only when your original calculation task gets too hard. Do you have sources saying that this is "what the USSR did"? I don't mean aggregation, I mean the specific type of super-set aggregation for inputs described in that post.
can we get some planning data for an irl company along with some data about financial/resource/logistical wastage at said company and use cybernetics to btfo (or at least match) it in efficiency terms? the data can even be derived, augmented or based on documents of companies that have since folded.
>>1168037 My understanding is that GOSPLAN did aggregate planning due to limited computing power. That's why you got weird things like "we should produce X tons of electronics components" instead of working out how many 100k resistors, how many 400µF capacitors etc must be produced to produce Y number of radios. They did get something that *kind of* worked despite the crudeness of the method. But they also set targets in terms of rubles? I think? Someone with better insight please chime in. It's possible to compute the solution to an aggregated form of a linear program, and that solution is probably useful to get the solution to the full program, as evidenced by GOSPLAN. The real proof is working the idea into mathematical form, proving that you end up with something with lower complexity than current LP solvers, then implementing it. I'm looking at asking some math people at uni about this. If instead of aggregating you remove the constraints, then you just have a sparse linear system. Solving such systems in millions of variables is already done routinely at uni where I live. Any serious attempt at cybernetics should aim for solving systems with billions of equations, since there are billions of people. So a lot of these tricks will be necessary until we discover an algorithm that's fast enough to run on a single cluster in a hour or two.
>>1168460 Working this kind of stuff out is what tends to happen at the business plan stage. Getting it from a real company may be difficult. You can try working out a fictional company yourself, it's not too hard. A lot of companies tend to "streamline" their business, to focus on a small set of things. This can either be because of planning problems, to corner a niche, or to just fire people they don't like. When planning is the reason, it is relevant to us.
>>1168917 This. We don't need to plan perfectly we just need to plan better than the market. Which shouldn't be too hard since the market always laughs behind the real data for periods of up to years
>>1168942 >We don't need to plan perfectly we just need to plan better than the market. Good summary. Add to this that markets fucking hate planning. Gotta work in the Exchange Web Services mines now, bbl.
>>1168917 >But they also set targets in terms of rubles? I think? Later they did, in stalin times they used in kind aggregate targets. Targerts in gross output in rubled undoubtedly contributed to inefficiency and waste in later years. One widespread case was the conscious drive to increase costs to meet monetary targets. In general I think that drive to maximise monetary targets would lead to waste, i.e. a drive to increase profits. A drive to minimize monetary targets on the other hand can lead to increased efficiency, ie a decrease of monetary costs.
>>1169043 Won't a drive to decrease costs also risk worsening quality?
>>1169081 If you control for quality as you would control for output then obviously no. Soviets in after war stalin times used a mechanism of planned price reductions to squeeze enterprises, force them to reduce costs. If enterprise can't cut wages and reduce quality then the only way is to increase labor productivity.
>>1169251 Sounds reasonable enough. To continue my reply to >>1168037, I had a realization while pooping: optimal aggregation is given by applying PCA to the system. Picking the largest say n=1000 components gives a system that is very easy to solve. The downside is that the resulting system is dense, limiting n. Luckily sparse PCA exists, so we could probably take a system with a billion equations down to n=10⁵ or so. I found these slides while looking around: https://statmath.wu.ac.at/courses/optimization/Presentations/Nops+Thomas-sPCA1.pdf Most relevant example: >Asset allocation: We want to get principal components of the Eurostoxx 50, i.e. linearly reconstruct the covariance matrix. Additionally we want to derive portfolio allocation weights but minimize transaction costs (hence not invest in all 50 stocks, but, say, 5). Many of the algorithms presented look similar to some spontaneous ideas I had, for example sorting the matrix A to make decomposition easier. There is also the complicating factor that the input to PCA must be zero-centered, so A-ones(size(A,1),1)*mean(A). This turns A from sparse to dense. Not overly problematic, but a special algorithm is definitely necessary.
Could you use Cockshott's theories to plan a federation of cooperatives, for example? Or something like a dual power, small scale economy?
>>1168917 >My understanding is that GOSPLAN did aggregate planning due to limited computing power. That's why you got weird things like "we should produce X tons of electronics components" The actual question was: >>A production process that requires a specific input-mix then requests units of a basket or of several different baskets that contain the actually used stuff as a subset >>Do you have sources saying that this is "what the USSR did"?
>>1170847 That's just sparse PCA
>>1169798 Yes, in fact this is what the "People's Republic of Walmart" is about: how some businesses already do this within capitalism.
>>1172703 You sure about that?
>>1173090 It's a very similar idea. It might not be the optimal way to reduce dimensionality, but it should get you a decent solution. After you have the solution to the reduced system, you should transform it back to the original system and finish the optimization there. If you don't then your solution will not be globally optimal and you will force workers to perform wasteful, socially unnecessary labour.

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