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Anonymous 06/30/2020 (Tue) 06:15:25 No. 654070
>MLs explaining how the Soviet forced resettlement of the Yuits was not a colonial project and was actually based >Dengists explaining how the Taiwanese Indigenous peoples aren't "really indigenous" in the "Western sense" vol edit: There are enough "anti-tankie" threads on the catalog already, locked.
Edited last time by krates on 07/01/2020 (Wed) 23:37:53.
>>654070 MLs are generally retarded people pretending their citizens of the USSR What else is new
>>654070 Did we rly need another cringe anarcho schizo thread?
>Colonial Project Colonialism can’t exist without a capitalist or at least a mercantile economy >Chunk goverment thinks that indigenous Taiwanese aren’t indigenous Source?
Fed thread
>Soviet forced resettlement of the Yuits Yea? USSR had a big problem of Russo-centrism. I haven't even heard about the Yuits, but that does sound believable I guess. Still doesn't change the fact that USSR was better than any of its rivals, nor that it shouldn't be looked up to in certain policies. >Dengists explaining how the Taiwanese Indigenous peoples aren't "really indigenous" in the "Western sense" Another thing I never even heard about. These examples are peak definition of grasping at straws it seems. Also >Haha le strawman meem, u owned xd
>>654079 The USSR was capitalist, and they did do ethnic cleansing... unless you wanna be retarded and consider the ethnic deportations to be natural >Still doesn't change the fact that USSR was better than any of its rivals, Not really, the USSR was largely a fucking failure that dissolved. No point in defending it unless you're absolutely retarded.
>>654082 Didn't want to say it because the glowie meme is a bit stale and most of the time overused, but it does kind of feel like that. The arguments presented are so obscure that only a hardline cold war warrior
>>654087 >The USSR was capitalist Substantiate your claims. It seems you throw this out as a given >USSR was largely a fucking failure that dissolved I already responded to this in another thread. The USSR should never be compared with the west for measure of success. It started out in 1918 as shit as Brazil. And by the collapse, when there was already some economic damage done, it outpaced the LatAm countries by how well it developed. Ofc, it did worse than the capitalist core which was already industrial for a good century almost. The collapse didn't come from a failure of long-term policy, but internal political struggles. On pure economic terms, USSR is a success story.
>>654077 >Schizzo schizzzzo schizo!1! Anyone defending chauvinism/genocide needs to stop calling themselves a socialist
>>654102 Nobody is defending those things, schizo
>>654102 >See in 1931 the Soviet government allegedly relocated this small indigenous tribe which is somewhat similar to what happened to natives in US thus USSR committed genocide, thus you can't support it, even though the countries political and economic policy had nothing to do with it's native treatment Yeah no, I'm gonna say glow more
>>654098 >Substantiate your claims. It seems you throw this out as a given Find the USSR on a map made in the current year. >The USSR should never be compared with the west for measure of success. Why not? The USSR was a competitor, and suppose to be an alternative to western capitalism - and it failed completely.
>>654070 >Anarkiddies explaining how the concentration camps in Catalonia were cool and good actually
>>654107 >USSR fell ergo it wasn't socialist Oh I see, the longer your country lives on, the more socialist it is >Why not? The USSR was a competitor, and suppose to be an alternative to western capitalism - and it failed completely. Vid related is literally you rn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaIoGJyA9PQ
>>654106 The deportations of Koreans, Germans, Chechens, Tartars actually happened, and no one denies this unless you're a retarded Stalinist. Its dumb to lie about stuff that's been confirmed by the Soviet archives.But its okay - Marxism-Leninism has largely been discredited, and its never going to be an alternative to neo-liberal democracy >>654112 Those were bad, the problem is, the Soviets did worse since millions more people perished in them, and this happened during war time, as opposed to the peace time the Soviets were in when they committed levels of mass murder under-heard of >>654114 Yes, capitalism did play a role in the USSR dissolving; the command economy collapsed, and the political reforms gave enough head way to create the political tension necessary to dissolve it. You really gotta stop being a dumbass that gets info about the USSR from Finbol videos
>>654106 >even though the countries political and economic policy had nothing to do with it's native treatment lol and you claim to be a materialist?
>>654118 >from Finbol videos How 'bout you read epub related? The command economy didn't fail. It had problems (addressable ones), yet they alone weren't enough to cause the collapse. The real reason for it was the Brezhnev era stagnation. Why did the economy stagnate? Simply because any and all economies stagnate, FRoP applies to socialism as well. The stagnation meant a slowdown in rising levels of wages, which triggered the middle class, who wanted to BOOM like western counterparts. This created a political crisis over time. Differing factions wanted different sollutions to the issue. The Stalinists under Andropov were taking the right steps, but his death lead to the right wing faction to take control, who's flawed policies killed the command economy, cause a massive crisis, let nationalist sentiments run rampart and caused the collapse. Also my argument wasn't that the US killed USSR, but that you believe it is somehow fair to compare the 2 to measure success, the same way Destiny says that socialism is a failure if it can't defend it self against the worlds largest military. >>654120 Prove to me how having a one party state with command economy leads you to killing natives. The material reason for it was the still present Russian nationalism (a left over from the Czarist period) which, as I said above, was a massive problem for the USSR. Oh and yea, Stalin was a nationalist as well and that did contribute to the issues, but his chauvinist policies are not connected with his economic policies.
>>654132 The tendency for the profit rate to fall doesn't apply to socialism, dummy, because socialism abolishes the law of value, commodity production - there is no production for profit anymore i.g. they no longer exist. The USSR wasn't socialist.
>>654143 Population under every system will inevitably stagnate. That means labour available has a hard cap. That means at some point the growth rate of the economy (profit rate for capitalism) will inevitably stagnate, left only to be boosted up by the small innovations for increasing productivity.
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>>654118 >soviet union >being ever in "peace time" >le gorillion victims of communism my black book says so solchenizyn is legit i'm a serious person
>>654152 >>654156 This is absolute retardation. Read Marx, retard. The Soviet Union was a failure, and defending it just shows you are a fucking aesthetic communist instead of one who has seriously read Marx's work.
>>654164 It's you who needs to read Marx, especially Capital.
>>654164 chapo libs in the house tonight everybody's gonna have a fed time
>>654170 Nah, bro, you need to be shot for being stupid. Fucking tanks don't read a fucking thing - even retards on wikipedia have a better understanding of the lower phase of communism then you dumb niggers
>>654164 >This is absolute retardation. Once again, substantiate your claims. If FRoP, or FRoGrowth in this case, doesn't apply to Socialism, that would imply an infinite growth being possible. The more it grows, the more labour will have to be dedicated to maintaining existing capital. With labour being limited by population, this means that eventually any further growth will be unsustainable, and will be only achieved through implementation of labour saving tech. >>654175 Prove that YOU can read by reading >>654132 attachment then.
>>654175 All those soviet economists who read all of Marx's works, who spent decades studying the soviet economy and concluded there was no way it could be capitalist, they were all dumb and wrong.
>>654176 Nigger, commodity production doesn't exist in the lower phase of communism. The critique of the gotha programme is like 20 pages - why didn't you read it? You are one dumb nigger >>654177 Its called revisionism, you retarded nigger.
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>>654071 >sectarian noises ew, go away
>>654181 Typical dumb nigger - Marxism has always been sectarian and always will be. There is a reason why Marx booted the Anarchists from the international, why Lenin shot so many anarchists and other socialists. Sectarianism is good, some dumbasses just don't belong in the socialist movement like Marxist-leninists
>>654179 >Muh gomodidi produgshion The fuck are you even talking about? The nature of how the produced goods are distributed doesn't change the fact that the amount of labour available will limit the amount that is possible to be produced at a given time. >Dey were revishunist Oh I see, you and you alone, a random retard on leftypol who, let's be honest here, read a very limited amount of Marx, has the perfect understanding of him which is the only correct line.
>>654070 <It's a CIA pretends to care about meme nationalities episode
>>654190 Read Critique of The Gotha Programme you dumb nigger
>>654186 >Sectarianism is good /leftypol/ is a non-sectarian board for leftist discussion. go away
>>654087 In what metric does it categorize as a failure to you? It can obviously just be seen as a failure from the viewpoint of it being a political experiment but what were the fundamental flaws in soviet society in your eyes?
>>654170 the ussr stagnated and suffered shortages and famines mainly because of how deeply unfree/alienated labour was, which is something actual marxists realized about the ussr even in the early years https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1934/bolshevism/ch03.htm >>654177 ideology arises from man's social being, shouldn't surprise anyone that the social being of a soviet economist concludes that the party is always right
>>654192 >>654190 >>654179 Stalin of all people address's this the most rationally out of anybody in one of his various writings But to TL;DR the reason why commodity Production continued to exist in the Soviet Union (Which Stalin admitted to) was simply because it was literally pragmatically impossible to abolish it at that time. Stalin defines that Commodity production in the USSR would be phased out as THE WORLD transitioned to "Higher-Stage communism" which basically meant the majority of the world operating under Lower-Stage Communist (Socialist) economies and cooperating towards that end
>>654192 Aight, I will, but can you tell me what are you even disagreeing on? Because right now I am banking on good faith (don't know why I should even have it towards you, I was called nigger like 5 times now) that it will somehow tackle what I am talking about.
>>654199 >Kautsky lol
>>654199 >Kautsky Miss me with that shit lol >the ussr stagnated and suffered shortages and famines mainly because of how deeply unfree/alienated labour was, The Soviet Union did not suffer these things through the vast majority of its existence
>>654196 >what were the fundamental flaws in soviet society in your eyes? The command economy, for one, was an utter failure. There were better proposals that could have at least saved the USSR from the bureaucratic shit hole that it turned out to be such as the Workers' Opposition & The Workers Group that would have put the country under the control of workers' councils and unions. At least, this would have been some resemblance of the free association of producers Marx talked about. But, the niggers who infest these forums have a really poor understanding of Soviet history, and fail to realize the amount of damage Lenin and Stalin did by suppressing the actual communists who called for these things. >Because right now I am banking on good faith Because you honestly getting basic fucking marxism wrong, and pretending you know what you are talking about. You are saying stupid shit like commodity production existing under socialism - something both Marx and Lenin rejected. Even Stalin himself, before hew as a revisionist, rejected commodity production under socialism.
>>654204 fuck off leftcom, your kind lost this debate years ago on 8chan. all you faggots are like broken records, same arguments every single time.
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>>654175 >>654179 >>654186 >>654192 >nigger >nigger >nigger >nigger >nigger >nigger Are you for real mate? It's retards like you that are the reason for the defensiveness of alot of MLs. They get so caught up in filtering your constant bullshit, trying to come up with a proper response that their own criticisms of previous socialist experiments cannot be voiced because they'll either be used as a tool to attack them or be ignored entirely. I can respect some leftcoms, for all their autism, because they at least try to have some level of civility and reasoning. You? You're probably just a provocateur here for some free (you)s. Scum whose only position is to outright reject any and every historical socialist experiment because it wasn't picture perfect. You have nothing constructive to add, take your (you)s and leave.
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>>654206 >Marxism knows neither “immortal” nor dead. With those whom the vulgar art of public speaking refers to as such, life is a dialogue. All will one day be held accountable for their actions, and with the living of today and those who follow them.
>>654199 >the ussr stagnated and suffered shortages and famines mainly because of how deeply unfree/alienated labour was What a load of crap they had to deal with the gigantic surplus drain for bootstrapping a gigantic war-production to fend off the capitalist neighbours that had degenerated into fascism to facilitate imperial expansion. Do you think they'd had be free-er in in the thrid reich ?
>>654200 Ultras don't have a realistic, plausible plan to abolish commodity production and money in 1928, which is why they treat those things in the most fixed, metaphysical way, something Marx would've hated.
>>654206 >leftcom Why is this supposed to be someone sort of argument? Not everyone who sees an issue with the way the USSR did things is X ideology.
>>654207 >civility Go back to chapo you dumb nigger >>654209 This is literally liberalism. A victory of the third reich would have fundamentally made no difference to the world communist movement.Russia would be capitalist under either system. >>654210 Cope nigger, if you're gonna be a revisionist renegade, at least be honest about it. Don't pretend you're a communist.
is this that same maoist who just insults everyone and doesn't address actual points before bouncing and returning some threads later thinking they won the argument >>654214 lol yeah it is
>>654204 >The command economy, for one, was an utter failure. There were better proposals that could have at least saved the USSR from the bureaucratic shit hole that it turned out to be While i would not call the Soviet "Command Economy" an Utter failure i do admit its eventual decline was genuine and caused more by internal issues rather the singular issues others here blame it on (Cornman / Pizzaman / Oil prices etc) >the Workers' Opposition & The Workers Group that would have put the country under the control of workers' councils and unions. At least, this would have been some resemblance of the free association of producers Marx talked about. But, the niggers who infest these forums have a really poor understanding of Soviet history, and fail to realize the amount of damage Lenin and Stalin did by suppressing the actual communists who called for these things. A. I've looked up the 'Workers opposition' and the 'Workers group'. Both of their wikipedia pages and other pages referencing them are less then one paragraph long and claims they had effectively gone extinct only two or three years after each of them were formed. B. The reasoning given by Lenin and Trotsky (Stalin wasnt even a factor in military matters at that point) for the suppression of groups such as the Krondstat rebellion and so on is that under the circumstances of the Russian Civil War giving total independence to every Soviet and allowing Liberal-Democratic elections would have almost certainly led to a defeat of the bolshevik party and a success for the Social-Democratic Mensheviks and Utopian - Agrarian Socialist "SR's"
>>654204 Can you actually read or not? Nowhere did I mention commodity production. What I am talking about is that the gross product of any economy is going to hit a hard cap due to labour being limited, thus meaning that any economy is destined to "stagnate". Weather the goods are distributed directly for consumption or produced as commodities has no effect on this simple fact. I have no clue why are you so triggered about it. >Muh pure good boi worker opposition That's weird, I thought you'd stan the left opposition but apparently you aren't even an actual leftcom, just a retard who doesn't realize that Kronstadt rebels demanded something akin to NEP. Anyway, I don't even know really know what is the purpose of this argument about commodities, since any principled Marxist would realize we now live in a world where money form not only can, but should be abolished first thing post-revolution.
>>654084 >I've never heard of it <but if the USSR did it it must have been amazing and awesome and great
>I've looked up the 'Workers opposition' and the 'Workers group'on wikiedpia I really, really recommend you consider reading more about the Russian Revolution http://links.org.au/node/4291 http://links.org.au/democratic-production-workers-opposition-revolutionary-russia https://libcom.org/library/bolshevik-opposition-lenin-paul-avrich
>>654219 ? I literally said I wouldn't be surprised if they did that. Ofc it's not good, but that doesn't invalidate the entire thing you bleeding heart retard.
>>654218 >just a retard who doesn't realize that Kronstadt rebels demanded something akin to NEP. The workers' opposition supported the crushing Kronstadt Commune, you dumb nigger, imagine trying to pull a fast one on me when you have such poor understanding of Russian History. I'm not gonna even talk about Kronstadt because a dumb nigger like you don't even grasp the fundamentals, yet, you wanna debate me on Soviet History. You are a stupid nigger.
>>654218 And no you dumb nigger the Workers Opposition didn't support NEP, and weirdly enough - it was BUKHARIN he supported NEP and market socialism - you know, the guy Stalin murdered? You know, the guy who opposed Stalin's forced collectivization that killed millions of people. You one stupid fucking nigger, its incredible how much historical revisionism you niggers get away with
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>hell yea I call people niggers >wait you mean to an actual person's face? Of course not, only online
>>654221 Most of these issues brought up within the articles are answerable by the same logic i already explained in regards to your opinion on the Soviets Continued Commodity production. Having NO government oversight of Industry NO control of society through a police force and army NO technocracy of Scientists and planners to help efficiently manage the economy and finally holding Liberal-Democratic elections was not possible on the Bolsheviks end assuming they wanted the revolution to be successful.
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>>654214 >A victory of the third reich would have fundamentally made no difference... Siding with the Nazis to own the tankies
>>654242 Anarchists have shown that they are pronazi.
>>654239 It was possible though - its just the Bolsheviks murdered, and suppressed groups like the Workers' Opposition that called for it. In fact, this view is ahistorical too because these institutions such as production communes and councils existed spontaneously even before the Russian Revolution Living the Revolution: Urban Communes & Soviet Socialism is a good book that completely refutes this idiotic view you're pushing. Its just utter lies not supported by the historical evidence. >>654242 Its not really siding with them - its more like I don't really care if they kill idiots like you. You're both idiots that deserve to fucking die lmao >>654237 I'm not even white, nigger
>>654228 >>654224 Well I see you are on edge so I'd imagine you will think I am trying to "slip out of this" or something, but it's just that in my experiance whenever someone mentions worker anything in regards to early Soviet Russia, they mean the Kronstadt idiots. From the way you describe it I imagine you mean the left opposition, in which case I have to say that yea, maybe they would have been better. I don't know much about their exact policies apart from really wanting to keep war communism, but I can't really make a judgment. It's just that I don't believe that the USSR we got was that bad either. Also yea, I know that Bukharin was for extending the NEP, however what I meant was that Kronstadt was demanding NEP in the first place. Anyway, did you just abandon the line of argumentation about socialist economies not stagnating or no?
>>654243 Bolshevism is a form of Russian Fascism
>>654250 Is there any anarchist that isn't a fucking redditor? Of course not. This is redditor tactics. Leave knave.
>>654244 >It was possible though - its just the Bolsheviks murdered, and suppressed groups like the Workers' Opposition that called for it. In fact, this view is ahistorical too because these institutions such as production communes and councils existed spontaneously even before the Russian Revolution Yes Workers Councils (Soviets) and some Production communes did existed in a limited capacity in Russia prior to the February and October revolutions The Difference is that only after the actual Russian Revolution did the Workers councils (Mainly controlled by the Bolsheviks) seize power I highly doubt the 'Workers Opposition' and 'Workers Group' which even the articles you cite admit had "In the thousands of members" would have been able to adequately manage the Soviet state instead of the Bolsheviks who had in the hundreds of thousands of members by 1917 >Its not really siding with them - its more like I don't really care if they kill idiots like you. You're both idiots that deserve to fucking die lmao Literally read Trotsky lmao
>>654250 Indeed, nothing like the USSR should ever be attempted again. This is the end of history after all!
>>654204 >Racist Pseudo-Leftcom Oof
>>654249 >Anyway, did you just abandon the line of argumentation about socialist economies not stagnating or no? No? I just don't understand your analysis because you keep pushing non-sense like the USSR was socialist when Marx made it clear that wasn't the case. In co-operative society, producers do not exchange their products. If you were smart - you would realize that Lenin's plan for socialism in the USSR was using NEP to gradually collectivize the country side in the form of producer, communes and agricultural co-operatives. But no, you want to defend the stupid shit Stalin said. >>654255 >The Difference is that only after the actual Russian Revolution did the Workers councils (Mainly controlled by the Bolsheviks) seize power This is really strange argument. You went from they had no way manage the economy to saying they didn't have the support, and literally ignore the fact Lenin suppressed both of those groups. Both were banned, and many of their members were kicked out of the country. >Literally read Trotsky lmao I don't give a fuck about Trotsky though; he was just as responsible for Stalin's stupidity as Bukharin >>654257 A nigger like you never going to attempt something like. Larping on here won't do it much justice. >>654258 Why do you dumb niggers always accuse people of being left communists? Where the fuck did say I was a Left Communist you dumb nig
>>654258 Might as well cancel marxism and anarchism because Marx and Bakunin were racism, and used nigger, you fucking retard
>>654264 because your arguments are that of a leftcom you fucking pseud
Someone trying to criticize Marxism-Leninism and USSR using every single left-wing tendency positions most likely doesn't belong to any of them, and is actually a Fed. I suggest banning such people.
>>654280 They're not, you dumb nigger, literally read a fucking book. Just because someone actually reads Marx, you monkey gorilla chimpanzee nigger, doesn't mean they're a left communist, you faggot nigger, it just means they took the time to investigate. Stop getting your theory from chapo memes and facebook, nigger
>>654280 He isn't a leftcom, he's an insane neocon and a racist
>>654264 >This is really strange argument. You went from they had no way manage the economy to saying they didn't have the support, Yes they would have had no way to manage the economy because they had no influence over any of the Soviets or so on as to implement their Council-Socialist policy and literally a few thousand people could not win a war against the White Army + The Entire Entente + Poland and the Balts
>>654284 With all that armor, you tanks sure are a bunch of sensitive niggers
>>654287 Nigger, this is stupid, these institutions existed after the war. The Workers' Opposition, Group formed after the Civil War. There is no excuse.
>>654286 Well, Chomsky made the same criticisms, and he's a hardly a leftcom. He's controlled opposition, i.e. a Fed asset.
>>654284 Banning isn't always the answer In this case the troll is getting dunked on severely and that should be enough.
>>654292 Nigger, this is coping even >>654249 admitted my positions have merit. You have to be a dumb, blind nigger not see what's happening here. Stop samefagging, nigger
>>654292 If I wanted to listen to stupid pseudo-leftist bitching at USSR, I would cut out the middle man, and listen to Chomsky directly. The same goes for garbage threads questioning already settled topics.
>>654285 you're trying way too hard, calm down nerd
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>>654244 >I don't care if the Nazis murder you, you are not good enough anyway Gee i wonder why the Russians went with Stalinism
>>654296 hehehehehe nigger faggot nigger nigger redditposting.txt nigger
>>654300 Must of had something do with Social Democrats putting down a rebellion somewhere, but you know, you being a dumb nigger and all....
>>654302 >redditposting.txt nigger it keeps happening
>>654250 Says the anarchist dog who believes the Nazis should have one. Bolsheviks were right to slaughter you rodents.
>>654306 The Bolsheviks no longer exist. Every dog has its day, nigger
>>654266 It’s more that you say it every post like an edgy 13 year old Are you trying to look cool or something? It’s pathetic
>>654308 They exist in our hearts
>>654309 Why does it offend you so much, nigger? Calm down. >>654312 Have a heart attack then
>>654264 >In co-operative society, producers do not exchange their products. And how do you ensure that? I think that you are an anarcho-syndicalist, right, or at least something similar? So why wouldn't capitalist market relationships arise between the different free-association worker councils? It would be in the class interest of the workers of an individual co-op to compete and bring down others so they could make more profit. A command economy bypasses this issue. In an abstract sense, it is a one big co-op. What distinguishes it from just state capitalism are 2 things. 1. Who holds the power of the government? 2. Whose interests does the executive power appease? USSR is interesting, because the power wasn't really democratic, it was a revolutionary oligarchy. However it did undeniably serve the interests of the working class, at least until 1985. I would say that it is enough to name it socialist. >But what about the commodity production though? In all honesty I don't really get this argument much. USSR clearly had a different produce distribution system than the capitalist states. First thing, expensive goods WERE distributed directly for consumption. Cars would get issued basically by random chance (or through corruption of the lottery), either way, no market exchange. Same went for housing. And with cheaper goods as well, while at first sight it might seem like capitalist distribution, the actual consumption was dictated not by how much money you had, but by what was produced. Wage was there purely for a matter of accounting. The planners (though not always successfully) had a set goal of making it so that people would buy up all that was produced while hopefully not keeping on to too much money afterwards. And unless you are some sort of Owenist-Nechayevist-Polpotist who thinks that we all must live like monks or soldiers, living off a set ration, you will need to have a similar-to-Soviet consumer market to distribute the produced goods, since not everyone wants the same shit.
>>654313 >Have a heart attack then You must be fun at parties.
>>654199 >Leftcom using Kautsky I would take 100 Bordiga posters over whatever you're fucking doing right now, holy fucking shit. Is this what amounts to leftcoms on leftypol now?
>Unironically thinking that the USSR was too "authoritarian" >Not that it was not authoritarian enough Democracy, particularly democratic centralism, was literally one of its biggest failings.
hello fellow leftypolers! i say nigger lots, because marx said it somewhere too i am a very serious person and fit in here
>>654314 >And how do you ensure that? I think that you are an anarcho-syndicalist You're so fucking stupid. You have to de-spookify yourself, and stop using labels. >So why wouldn't capitalist market relationships arise The USSR had private property and a market economy. What is your point? Without an international revolution - there is no talk of socialism. >A command economy bypasses this issue. This is a really strange thing because it assumes planning can not happen on an a communal level as if freely associated producers can not make choices on what to make and what not to make. As if self-organization is impossible even though these types of institutions were created during the Russian Revolution i.g. the worker councils i.g. the production communes. >However it did undeniably serve the interests of the working class Dude, just stop. Just stop defending a shitty country that no longer exists. You're like a bitch who's in an abusive relationship, and you refuse to leave your man. The USSR isn't coming back. Command economies are horribly inefficient at managing resources. They are not an alternative to markets. >In all honesty I don't really get this argument much. Because you don't fucking read Marx. Its easy. Just pick up Critique of The Gotha Programme and read it.
>>654316 Don't lump us in with this retard, please.
>>654313 Bruh you’re like a parody of a leftypoler For some reason I doubt you’re from here You’re not fitting in very well
>>654324 Don't lump me in with niggers like you, yes - I'm not Left Communist; I just know my Marx pretty well. >>654325 what are you on about you dumb nigger
>>654327 >what are you on about you dumb nigger You sound like a redditor trying to sound like a leftypoler
>>654328 Have no idea what you're talking about nigger, must be monkey talk
>>654323 >The more "free" and "communal" a revolutionary socialist state is, the more Marxist it is https://www.marxists.org/archive/bordiga/works/1922/democratic-principle.htm
>>654244 So you started a thread condemning colonialism and now say that you don't care about Nazi Germany potentially having succeeded in exterminating the Russians and colonizing Russia.
>>654335 Uh actually yes you dumb nigger because Lenin and Bordiga both explicitly stated socialism would essentially by the Paris-Commune state. You are such a dumb nigger. You don't read anything. Even the Marx's drafts of the Civil War in France he makes it clear it would be a system of self managing communes. You niggers don't read anything, yet pretend you're socialists >>654336 When, nigger? I haven't made a thread in a while.
stop being an edgy cunt
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>>654323 They are not an alternative to markets. OH NO NO NO NO No seriously, now you gotta stop posting. To think that you are the retard who goes around telling everyone to read Marx. Also didn't you read my post? I understand what commodity production is. What I am arguing is that USSR abolished commodity form to the furthest extent it could. And not to mention that you fail to grasp that your "freely associated worker communes" will over time start to compete with each other, bringing out the same evil shit markets always bring out.
>>654070 Quick reminder if Israel was anti-american, tankies would worship hebrew cock, talk about how hamas was a CIA-creation and that palestnians are not natives.
>>654341 Quick reminder if America was anarchist, you would worship Trump's cock, talk about how BLM was a MSS-creation and that blacks are not a nation.
>>654070 nooooooo not the ethnicitierinooos not the religionerinoos not the spooooooks
>>654345 uh hello based department?
>ctrl+f >nigger >56 matches
>>654070 OP's posting from the basement of the NSA.
this niggerposter guy is a two-faced wrecker. he was the gonzaloite poster in the other threads calling people crackers, and here (plus the vietnam thread—go look at the last few posts) he's taking the position of some anti-bolshevik who calls people nigger instead.
>>654070 >Dengists explaining how the Taiwanese Indigenous peoples aren't "really indigenous" in the "Western sense" Who has ever said that? The Gaoshan (Taiwanese aborigines) are considered by PRC to be the original people of Taiwan. http://www.kepu.net.cn/english/nationalitymse/gao/200312240009.html
>>654361 and in case someone says something about le unique position free of labels, that doesn't matter: there is a clear contradiction between being a peking review mouthpiece decades later crying about betrayal of true stalin socialism, and being someone who cites bordiga and claims the USSR from its conception was in the wrong (read marx bro!!) either he's indiosyncratic, or more likely he is just a shit-stirrer who derails threads. i'm more inclined to the latter if not purely because he only appeared on /leftypol/ a couple months ago.
>>654361 So basically a glowie. On the real, jannies should just straight up ban people who act like fuckwits spamming the n-word or bitching about minorities in general.
This thread has been seized by the NigBol Revolutionary Provisional Government. N word passes will be distributed momentarily.
>>654366 >someone who cites bordiga He didn't cite Bordiga once you fag, that was me arguing against him.
>>654369 If that guy didn't act like an angry bitter teenager he'd bring more people to his side.
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>>654338 >self managing communes How do these self managing communes interact with each other economically. Is it money market schemes ? You can read Das Kapital as a very long argument that you need to abolish an economy based on monetary logic. In this context Marx argues that an economy based on monetary logic has internal pressures that will over time force you to reinstate all capitalist structures including private property and a capitalist state for managing class relations. Another way of putting the same argument is that if you do not have a way to allocate the surplus of society on the hole of society via political means then you will end up with a centralised privately controlled financial centre. Yet a different way of re-framing this argument is that there can be no power-vacuum
>>654369 Saying nigger is fine if you aren't literally spamming it every single sentence to make your point. At that point you're not even writing proper sentences, it's like Twitter shits who think adding fuck to every portion of their tweet makes it sound more "legitimate".
>>654377 literally mentioned bordiga in his last post >>654338 and doesn't negate the point of what i said. he pushes two separate positions with the goal of shitting up otherwise useful discussion (e.g. the thread about peru turned into him decrying others for not taking joy in unnecessary violence under some guise of being a true revolutionary.)
>>654345 Why would trump be agains blm if he was anarchist, braindead tanky?
Nice thread op
>>654341 >if x adopted a completely antithetical position which makes no sense you would like it useless argument; not even a productive hypothetical because it makes zero sense. israel owes its existence (formation and continued support) to the U.S., so them being "anti-american" is an impossiblity. if anti-americans came to power, they won't just exist in some vaccum maintaining the same socio-economic makeup, which wouldn't even allow such a thing to happen in the first place. we might as well say "if rhodesia was communist tankies would support it." like ok if it was, that doesn't just mean it's the same old rhodesia but with a communist party... how would that work? yeah i probably would support a communist rhodesia because it wouldn't be rhodesia anymore, since the very concept of rhodesia (like israel) is a product of western colonialism and this hypothetical new rhodesia/israel(tm) is going to dismantle apartheid and give rights back to the natives. this whole argument is just a way to embarass opponents, like "heh what if hitler supported your ideas" sort of thing. okay cool, so they're doing the complete opposite things now and are no longer bad? we're not even talking about the same object anymore what is the point lmao
>>654070 >>Dengists ? The PRC doesn't even control Taiwan.
>>654216 Holy shit, they really might be it. At times in that thread I thought his posts reeked of glowie to high heaven. He might actually be trying to troll everyone while reading into the Wikipedia links of the most obscure topics of leftism. t. some other Maoist
>>654460 Lmaooo nigga shot himself in the foot accidentaly criticising ROC instead
>>654102 >you, pulling the word "chauvinism" out of thin air
>>654366 >peking review mouthpiece decades later crying about betrayal of true stalin socialism Yeah, if only MLM was that and just that. There's no Bordiga mentioned in his posts either, he hasn't progressed that far into his training yet. The straw which you make your man out of only adds fuel to this wrecker's fire.
>>654441 You're historically illiterate. The creation of Israel was supported by western powers and the Ussr. The alliance between Israel and america didn't even exists until 1973. And why do you think Israel is in anyway dependent on US aid? Those payments are just corrupt subsidies for the military industrial complex of the US. Every war against arabs was won alone. Israel could just ally with China and continue to do the same, and the Switch in your head would turn and you will beginn to see zionism as as a Form of antiwestern resistance, like you consider China somehow an anticolonial force now.
>>654557 >defending israel using an alternate reality This is your brain on anarcrackerism
>>654559 That Israel only won because of america is an arab cope/Propaganda, but you tankies suck that shit up anyway.
>>654557 >Israel could just ally with China and continue to do the same, and the Switch in your head would turn and you will beginn to see zionism as as a Form of antiwestern resistance, I'll still condemn it and I'll condemn China as well. The fact that the only way in which you can shit talk China is by having it do the America is doing is laughable. >And why do you think Israel is in anyway dependent on US aid? Those payments are just corrupt subsidies for the military industrial complex of the US. >Every war against arabs was won alone. Kek, nice one. >The creation of Israel was supported by western powers and the Ussr. The USSR didn't support the creation of Israel, Lenin condemned it heavily. The only time when the USSR supported Israel was under Stalin who thought that it could be possible to make Israel socialist and end the war. The USSR afterwards stopped supporting Israel after some years.
>>654559 >not debunking ANY claim Why have tankies no critical real thinking? Seriously, just being completely contrarian and believing unquestioningly everything anti-american media tells them is not critical thinking at all.
>>654570 >The USSR didn't support the creation of Israel, Lenin condemned it heavily. The only time when the USSR supported Israel was under Stalin who thought that it could be possible to make Israel socialist and end the war. The USSR afterwards stopped supporting Israel after some years. So I was right and the ussr supported israel, thanks. >Kek, nice one. Not an argument. >I'll still condemn it and I'll condemn China as well. The fact that the only way in which you can shit talk China is by having it do the America is doing is laughable. If the KMT won and done the EXACT SAME shit your thought process would go >if (allied to US) == condemn >else == kneel and worship You guys are literal NPCs with no ideology beyond anti-americanism.
>>654577 >So I was right and the ussr supported israel, thanks. It supported it for four fucking years. Plus, I'm not a fan of the USSR either. It was leagues better than america but still a deformed workers' state. > Without changing its official anti-Zionist stance, from late 1944, until 1948 and even later, Joseph Stalin adopted a pro-Zionist foreign policy, apparently believing that the new country would be socialist and would accelerate the decline of British influence in the Middle East. Also, >On February 23, 1966 Syria had a military coup, in which the new regime Neo-Ba’ath took a more radical position towards Israel, both in rhetoric and action, supporting Palestinian guerilla activity against Israel. >If the KMT won and done the EXACT SAME shit your thought process would go I would still condemn it and I would still condemn Israel. Whatever role America plays can be played by another player, however the only player which plays the same role is Saudi Arabia and other US-funded states. >You guys are literal NPCs with no ideology beyond anti-americanism. I hate the US because it's the reason for the immense terrorism here. I still don't trust China, but as long as it provides a counter to US imperialism and doesn't bomb nations in the Middle East it's still better than the US. Not good, but better than the US.
>>654585 You still support an hegemonic power, an straight up facist painted in red one.
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>>654118 >Marxism-Leninism has largely been discredited, and its never going to be an alternative to neo-liberal democracy why are you even here lol
>>654557 >You're historically illiterate. The creation of Israel was supported by western powers and the Ussr. the creation was "supported" by the USSR insofar as israel was going to happen regardless, and stalin hoped for a progressive government which represented the interests of both jews and palestinians. this obviously didn't happen and relations between the USSR and israel soured, with the nail on the coffin being the six-day war. it's not a matter of "x supports y" because, like i've said, the make-up of israel does not allow some magic switch to flip and have them become anti-american. why do you think Israel is in anyway dependent on US aid? because it is. they get the most american aid out of every country for virtually zero cost. without uncle sam backing them up financially and politically, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. >Every war against arabs was won alone. ...with the help of continued american aid. see: operation nickel grass, for one. >Israel could just ally with China again, how and why would this happen? you can say this about literally anything if you neglect material reality for a fantasy world were x decides to support y because "why not." >and the Switch in your head would turn and you will beginn to see zionism as as a Form of antiwestern resistance no, because (again) the makeup of the israeli state does not change. them allying with china doesn't turn an inherently shit belief like zionism into a progressive force, the same way the molotov-ribbentrop pact didn't negate the fact that nazi ideology was still considered a dangerous force of reaction by communists. >like you consider China somehow an anticolonial force now. and when have i said this? here's a tip: when you argue with someone, stick to positions they actually present instead of fishing out some strawman you've built in your mind based off of things other people have said, which you then choose to project onto le tankie boogeymen. >>654565 >That Israel only won because of america is an arab cope- mask off i see
>>654595 The difference between supporting America/Israel and supporting China is that the former bombs other nations, kills their generals and imposes sanctions on them which ruin their economy while the latter doesn't. China should not be trusted, but America should be trusted far, far less.
>>654606 >that britain anly won the opium war because the british used black magic is an chinese cope mask off i see >>654606 >without uncle sam backing them up financially and politically, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. You compltely ignore the reality that the first american aid arrived in 1973, after the the egyptians begann retreating. That american aid made no diffrence in any conventional war israel fought. >again, how and why would this happen? you can say this about literally anything if you neglect material reality for a fantasy world were x decides to support y because "why not." What exactly would stop them? >muh strawman So then what do you think of china?
>>654616 >That american aid made no diffrence in any conventional war israel fought. >During these years of austerity, the United States provided Israel moderate amounts of economic aid, mostly as loans for basic foodstuffs; a far greater share of state income derived from German war reparations (86% of Israeli GDP in 1956) which were used for domestic development. France became Israel's main arms supplier at this time and provided Israel with advanced military equipment and technology. This support was seen by Israel to counter the perceived threat from Egypt under President Gamal Abdel Nasser with respect to the "Czech arms deal" of September 1955. During the 1956 Suez Crisis, the Israeli Defense Forces invaded Egypt and were soon followed by French and British forces. For differing reasons, France, Israel and Britain colluded to topple Nasser by regaining control of the Suez Canal, following its nationalization, and to occupy parts of western Sinai assuring free passage of shipping (for Israel) in the Gulf of Aqaba. In response, the US, with support from Soviet Union at the UN intervened on behalf of Egypt to force a withdrawal. Afterward, Nasser expressed a desire to establish closer relations with the United States. Eager to increase its influence in the region, and prevent Nasser from going over to the Soviet Bloc, US policy was to remain neutral and not become too closely allied with Israel. At this time, the only assistance the US provided Israel was food aid. In the early 1960s, the US would begin to sell advanced, but defensive, weapons to Israel, Egypt, and Jordan, including Hawk anti-aircraft missiles.
>>654070 Isn't China arguing that the KMT has committed crimes against the indigenous Taiwanese population, and that the liberals there are even worse in that regard? Isn't China arguing that when "1 country 2 systems" ends, indigenous Taiwanese would be recognized as a minority? Seems like a ridiculous strawman my man.
>>654617 Wait so the us bailed out egypt, gave aid in food and traded with the whole region? How does this show significant US support?
>>654627 It shows that Israel is reliant on imperialist support
>>654630 By your standart the whole middle east was...
>>654632 bombed to death and then forced to place pro-US leaders in charge after a coup? Saudi Arabia hasn't been couped because of oil and other resource trading and because Saudi Arabia is a frontier against Iran.
>>654616 <that britain anly won the opium war because the british used black magic is an chinese cope >mask off i see ????? >You compltely ignore the reality that the first american aid arrived in 1973, after the the egyptians begann retreating the U.S. had been sending economic and military aid to israel since the 50s, the latter of which reached the 100s of millions of $ by 1972. >What exactly would stop them? the burden of proof lies on you as to why a country like israel would decide to side with china over the U.S. or, as you initially framed it, would actively be anti-american. they'd be shooting themselves in the foot, for one, and there is no political incentive for such a thing on the part of tel aviv. why bite the hand that feeds you, and sticks it neck out for you while the rest of the world contests you? it's always the U.S.—not china—which defends israel against UN condemnations, and in return israel stands alone with the U.S. in countless foreign policy endeavors (e.g. cuban sanctions.) >then what do you think of china? if i contest something the logical conclusion to make would be that i... contest it. it, being the support of china as "anticolonial."
>>654337 Nice picture of your mother, faggot
>>654577 You do realize that at that time, Labour Zionism was dominant within Zionism, including the Kibbutz movement that included Jews and Arabs? You do realize the first election in Israel was mostly resulting in a Knesset of DemSocs and SocDems, with heavy sympathies to the USSR? You do realize that Jews just went through a fucking Holocaust and many were heavily communistic and sympathetic to Stalin and the USSR? You do realize that many in the communist movement argued that Jews had a right to national self-determination? Zionism is wrong, and Revisionist Zionism of the Stern group that later became the Likud Party took over, and Western imperialism fully permeated Isreali politics but you seem to be completely ignorant of Zionist history.
>>654622 Ironically the aboriginals tend to support the KMT because the main opposition party in the DPP is primarily composed of Taiwanese descendants of Han Chinese settlers who call themselves "native" despite pushing the indigenous peoples into the mountains over the past few hundred years. Taiwanese politics are a mindfuck.
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>>654070 >Lamp oil, rope, B0MB. You want it? It's yours my friend as long as you have enough rupees. >Sorry Link, I can't give credit. Come back when you get a little, MMM, richer!
>>654118 >GORILLIONS The retarded anarkiddie falseflagger who was responsible for that shitty "State of this site" thread a few months back is here again
>>654071 fuckign kys fag
>>654893 (me) Also the whole "population transfer" thing was written by some faggots who think that nazis and communists are the same stuff. Total bullshit
Almost fucking 90% of this shit board is filled with anti-communist nonsense. IQ threads, anti-USSR or China hate threads. Almost nothing for organization or developing theory. How do you like your new, lax moderation huh? Just endless trash to DISTRACT you and DEMOTIVATE you. Really, after reading all these threads, your conclusion will be "is communism even viable?".
>>654932 old BO was right, that's obvious, and having mods that shit on him and cant ban libs spamming propaganda and sectarian wreckers was the indicator this board is doomed as users increase
>>654879 tbh, morshu is very concise in explaining his business model so I'm not sure what OP is trying to imply.
>>654932 >anti-USSR or China hate threads Tankies at it again.
>>655004 Not even a tankie but you fuckers always make threads about "muh ussr" or "muh china" which are the same thing repeated over and over again. Be more specific and actually promote good discussion rather than "soviets were bad cause they did bad thing, checkmate gommies"
>>655004 You fuckers would fit in on reddit, they're constantly crying about china and communism too.
>>654571 >expecting braindead larpers to think critically. None of them have ever read anything beyond literal propaganda pamphlets.
>>654911 Yes because stalin falsified the ethnic deportation orders just for the meme. How braindead are you? Even the most retarded tankies will at least acknowledge they happened, though they tend to jerk off over it.
>>655047 Of course we'd jerk off to mass evacuations in the face of the fascist menace
>>654978 >>654879 Morshu is a kulak
>>654102 kys retard
>>654932 From "ruthless criticism of all that exists" to "anything that criticizes me is a psyop or wrongthink." Do you want to be part of a scientific, emancipatory movement or a fucking religious cult?
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>>654118 >Command economy >Ml has been discredited >Levels of mass murders unheard of Yep, i see a liberal here
>>654164 Take your meds schizo
>>654175 I'd say go bakc to Reddit but they banned your sub chapotard
>>654070 > forced resettlement of the Yuits <based It was, because they ignored moralfagging and simply did the best they could since the land they were on was needed for its resources. The Yuits aren't the ones complaining so I don't see why you're so bitchy about it, oh great white saviour.
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Reminder
>>654199 >Kautsky >Being right on anything
>>655053 Yeah we totally mass evacuated the greeks in 1948 to Greece Kys retard.
>>655004 Shit like this is why anarchists died
>>655065 He's just high on ideology. Anybody worth their salt will criticise the Soviets and these retardes dogmatists are probably just wreckers.
>>654313 Real neocon hours >>654323 >Planning does not work Worse than a fucking Dengists >>654595 Mask off FEDposting i see >>654932 OLD B0 was right all along
>>654132 >Prove to me I don't have to; history already did.
>>655169 epic XD upvote
>>655081 I prefer to sage bait threads while derailing with erotic Kim Yo Jong copypasta.
>>654070 >forced resettlement ya what about it? the ussr was proletarianizing its entire population, that means liquidation of the old rural peasantry and their way of life.
>>655201 >erotic Kim Yo Jong copypasta Can I see that pls?
>>654132 >Destiny says that socialism is a failure if it can't defend it self against the worlds largest military Where's the lie?
>>654598 Keep in mind anon this board doesn’t belong to one ideology.
>>655415 but it should
>>655430 >this is what the acolytes of the old BO actually believe
>>655255 go be a prole in kazakhstan fucking ukrainian and korean niggers
>>655411 That socialism can't defend itself. He said that to a Vietnamese person-someone from a country which did in fact defend itself.
>>654070 >Ancoms explaining how Revolutionary Catalonia’s secret police and labor camps weren’t actually authoritarian
>>655535 >thing happened >checkmate [ideology] this meme needs to end
>>655509 they didn't really win, the mutts just fucked off. If anti-war niggers didn't sperg out the mutts would have burned Vietnam and all of Asia to the ground because le ebil gommunism
>>655430 Based
>>655544 The US lost the Vietnam war, period, not just because of domestic politics but also militarily. They had no counter to the novel interceptor style Mig fighter jets, and the infrared guided Air to Air missiles. (Which later resulted in the F15 fighter jet program) The US way overcommitted forces in Vietnam beyond any strategical and tactical reasoning, and if they had not backed out the Soviets would have won the cold war.
>>655587 >they lost militarily Eh, not really. The US never launched a full scale invasion of the north, if they did the south would have won. Also, the mig jets weren’t exactly “novel”, many of them were older mig 19s and mig 17s, which would mostly fight with guns. While they did eventually get mig 21s which were designed to be missile interceptors, the reliability of the missiles was quite low (this was the same with the US).
>>654904 dilate
>>654932 >NOOOOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST CHALLENGE MY BELIEFS NOOOOO!!!!! THIS BOARD NEEDS TO BE A SAFESPACE ECHOCHAMBER!!!!!!!!!!!!! If threads like this are enough to make people question their own ideology, they didn't have very strong convictions to begin with.
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>>655029 Ironic, considering it's you fags who want to turn this place into a reddit echochamber by banning everyone who disagrees with you like le based old BO.
>>655618 >The US never launched a full scale invasion Yeah because that was never an option, the empire cannot commit more surplus it terms of military assets then a victory in a given conflict will return. There's other material constraints, if they divert to many military assets from other places, rivals will seize the opportunity to attack.
>>655544 >The mutts fucked off So... they lost?
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>>655711 >If threads like this are enough to make people question their own ideology, they didn't have very strong convictions to begin with. To be fair here reading the same anti-communist arguments over and over is really boring. It's like an old vynal-disk phonograph that got stuck and is repeating the same track over and over.
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>>654106 >>655063 >genocide is not socialist <lol look at this retard >>655255 Lmao Bolsonaro is just "proletarianizing" primitive tribal peoples
>>655772 Imageboards are very repetitious in general.
>>654932 There needs to be a ruthless crackdown on doomer (fatalist kind), poltard "nigger lumpen" and sectarian-for-sake-of bait spam especially in theory/org threads
>>655618 If they invaded North Vietnam, China would have intervened like in Korea
>>655979 video without the Bolsonaro shit?
>>655711 You can have the strongest convictions, but hearing the same shit on repeat, every hour, will eventually make anyone doubt. In fact it's really fucking ironic and quite fitting, that specific method of anti-communist propoganda was popularized by joeseph Goebbels.
>>655979 >It wuz genocide! You're a retard Let me tke the most prominent examples of deportations while the deportations of Chechens and whatnot are morally questionable events, three things worth noting: 1) There were widespread reports of agitation and revolts in the middle of the largest invasion in history. Crimean Tatars (a minority ethnicity) literally sided with the Nazis to lynch jews. Upon recieving these reports Stalin had two options available: A) Order the security services to go around mass executing men suspected of the slightest disloyalty, which could have caused a bit of a demographic disaster for these nationalities after the war; or B) Take the entire populations and send them to places that were sufficiently far from Nazi forces and the frontline and therefore eliminate the possibility of on-front sabotage. 2) There's no evidence whatsoever the Soviet government intentionally killed Chechens, Tatars, etc. It's just that when you force a whole bunch of people into extremely crowded trains amid a transportation system in disarray due to war, some will die. Stalin and Beria determined that was the better price to pay to relocate the population away from the Nazis, rather than eliminating them wholesale or letting the unknown treasonous elements run rampant and help the fascists in killing people. One can condemn them for that if they want to, but it isn't genocide. 3) After Stalin died the CPSU acknowledged the issues with the policy and restored the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, allowing the deported population to return. Was there a campaign to demonize Chechens, Tatars, etc. in Soviet society, to portray them as subhuman and worthy of death, which preceded the deportations? No. Can one genuinely suggest that the open settlements in Siberia and Kazakhstan were equivalent to Auschwitz and Sobibor? Again no. How about those from the Chechen-Ingush ASSR who joined the Red Army, thousands of whom received orders and medals for their service in fighting the Nazi invaders? Somehow I doubt that behavior is commensurate with Chechens, Tatars, etc. being declared "enemies of the nation" or as “undesirables”. If Stalin wanted to commit genocide, he would have simply cited reports of mass revolt or treason and used them as a pretext to massacre the entire populations on the spot. There is no evidence that the Soviet government had any genocidal intention in doing what it did beyond your desire for it to be true. There were no extermination camps awaiting the deported nationalities. There was no Chechen equivalent to Kristallnacht or the innumerable other examples of virulent anti-Semitism the Nazis made use of in the road leading up to the Holocaust.
>>655979 >>656125 Don't know the sauce but here.
>>656158 saved
>>654070 cool bait
>>654616 Are...Are you implying that the British actually Did use Black magic to win the Opium war
>>655979 Bolsanaro burning down forests and having the army shoot people and shit is not the same as the Soviets having ASSR’s for extreme demographic minorities
>>655430 nah. part of the appeal of /leftypol/ is dabbing on anarkiddies
>>656158 So what in your view distinguishes the Soviet deportations from something like the Trail of Tears? Obviously the context is different (with the war, etc) but I’m thinking in terms of methods.
>>654071 hardest this of my life
>>656688 The US was a conquering force massacring the native populace, making them bend for a while, and then driving them away to be fought again and exterminated some more in another territory How the fuck are they comparable?
>>656707 >How the fuck are they comparable? They were both mass deportations if troublesome ethnicities which resulted in high mortality. It’s also worth noting that there were cases of ethnic deportations even before the war.
>>654070 >Dengists explaining how the Taiwanese Indigenous peoples aren't "really indigenous" in the "Western sense It was the KMT that fucked up the indigenous people on Taiwan, not the CPC
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Friendly reminder that MLs are literally fascists according to their own definition of fascism. All MLs should be banned on site and told to go to /pol/.
>>656728 >Friendly reminder that MLs are literally fascists according to their own definition of fascism. How exactly?
>>656732 The standards he just made up
>>656732 Fascism is when people wear military uniforms, and the more uniforms they wear the fascister it is
>>656768 五美分已存入您的帐户。
>>656728 Proof Also no I'm going to ban myself but I might ban you if you keep being sectarian.
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>>656732 >THE CLASS CHARACTER OF FASCISM >Comrades, fascism in power was correctly described by the Thirteenth Plenum of the Executive Committee of the Communist International as the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital. >... >Fascism is not a form of state power "standing above both classes -- the proletariat and the bourgeoisie," as Otto Bauer, for instance, has asserted. It is not "the revolt of the petty bourgeoisie which has captured the machinery of the state," as the British Socialist Brailsford declares. No, fascism is not a power standing above class, nor government of the petty bourgeoisie or the lumpen-proletariat over finance capital. Fascism is the power of finance capital itself. It is the organization of terrorist vengeance against the working class and the revolutionary section of the peasantry and intelligentsia. In foreign policy, fascism is jingoism in its most brutal form, fomenting bestial hatred of other nations. >This, the true character of fascism, must be particularly stressed because in a number of countries, under cover of social demagogy, fascism has managed to gain the following of the mass of the petty bourgeoisie that has been dislocated by the crisis, and even of certain sections of the most backward strata of the proletariat. These would never have supported fascism if they had understood its real character and its true nature. >The development of fascism, and the fascist dictatorship itself, assume different forms in different countries, according to historical, social and economic conditions and to the national peculiarities, and the international position of the given country. In certain countries, principally those in which fascism has no broad mass basis and in which the struggle of the various groups within the camp of the fascist bourgeoisie itself is rather acute, fascism does not immediately venture to abolish parliament, but allows the other bourgeois parties, as well as the Social-Democratic Parties, to retain a modicum of legality. In other countries, where the ruling bourgeoisie fears an early outbreak of revolution, fascism establishes its unrestricted political monopoly, either immediately or by intensifying its reign of terror against and persecution of all rival parties and groups. This does not prevent fascism, when its position becomes particularly acute, from trying to extend its basis and, without altering its class nature, trying to combine open terrorist dictatorship with a crude sham of parliamentarism. >The accession to power of fascism is not an ordinary succession of one bourgeois government by another, but a substitution of one state form of class domination of the bourgeoisie -- bourgeois democracy -- by another form -- open terrorist dictatorship. It would be a serious mistake to ignore this distinction, a mistake liable to prevent the revolutionary proletariat from mobilizing the widest strata of the working people of town and country for the struggle against the menace of the seizure of power by the fascists, and from taking advantage of the contradictions which exist in the camp of the bourgeoisie itself. But it is a mistake, no less serious and dangerous, to underrate the importance, for the establishment of fascist dictatorship, of the reactionary measures of the bourgeoisie at present increasingly developing in bourgeois-democratic countries -- measures which suppress the democratic liberties of the working people, falsify and curtail the rights of parliament and intensify the repression of the revolutionary movement. >Comrades, the accession to power of fascism must not be conceived of in so simplified and smooth a form, as though some committee or other of finance capital decided on a certain date to set up a fascist dictatorship. In reality, fascism usually comes to power in the course of a mutual, and at times severe, struggle against the old bourgeois parties, or a definite section of these parties, in the course of a struggle even within the fascist camp itself -- a struggle which at times leads to armed clashes, as we have witnessed in the case of Germany, Austria and other countries. All this, however, does not make less important the fact that, before the establishment of a fascist dictatorship, bourgeois governments usually pass through a number of preliminary stages and adopt a number of reactionary measures which directly facilitate the accession to power of fascism. Whoever does not fight the reactionary measures of the bourgeoisie and the growth of fascism at these preparatory stages is not in a position to prevent the victory of fascism, but, on the contrary, facilitates that victory. >... >What is the source of the influence of fascism over the masses? Fascism is able to attract the masses because it demagogically appeals to their most urgent needs and demands. Fascism not only inflames prejudices that are deeply ingrained in the masses, but also plays on the better sentiments of the masses, on their sense of justice and sometimes even on their revolutionary traditions. Why do the German fascists, those lackeys of the bourgeoisie and mortal enemies of socialism, represent themselves to the masses as "Socialists," and depict their accession to power as a "revolution"? Because they try to exploit the faith in revolution and the urge towards socialism that lives in the hearts of the mass of working people in Germany. >Fascism acts in the interests of the extreme imperialists, but it presents itself to the masses in the guise of champion of an ill-treated nation, and appeals to outraged national sentiments, as German fascism did, for instance, when it won the support of the masses of the petty bourgeoisie by the slogan "Down with the Versailles Treaty." >Fascism aims at the most unbridled exploitation of the masses but it approaches them with the most artful anti-capitalist demagogy, taking advantage of the deep hatred of the working people against the plundering bourgeoisie, the banks, trusts and financial magnates, and advancing those slogans which at the given moment are most alluring to the politically immature masses. In Germany -- "The general welfare is higher than the welfare of the individual," in Italy -- "Our state is not a capitalist, but a corporate state," in Japan -- "For Japan without exploitation," in the United States -- "Share the wealth," and so forth. >Fascism delivers up the people to be devoured by the most corrupt and venal elements, but comes before them with the demand for "an honest and incorruptible government." Speculating on the profound disillusionment of the masses in bourgeois-democratic governments, fascism hypocritically denounces corruption. >It is in the interests of the most reactionary circles of the bourgeoisie that fascism intercepts the disappointed masses who desert the old bourgeois parties. But it impresses these masses by the vehemence of its attacks on the bourgeois governments and its irreconcilable attitude to the old bourgeois parties. >Surpassing in its cynicism and hypocrisy all other varieties of bourgeois reaction, fascism adapts its demagogy to the national peculiarities of each country, and even to the peculiarities of the various social strata in one and the same country. And the mass of the petty bourgeoisie and even a section of the workers, reduced to despair by want, unemployment and the insecurity of their existence, fall victim to the social and chauvinist demagogy of fascism. >Fascism comes to power as a party of attack on the revolutionary movement of the proletariat, on the mass of the people who are in a state of unrest; yet it stages its accession to power as a "revolutionary" movement against the bourgeoisie on behalf of "the whole nation" and for the "salvation" of the nation. One recalls Mussolini's "march" on Rome, Pilsudski's "march" on Warsaw, Hitler's National-Socialist "revolution" in Germany, and so forth.
>>656732 >>656798 >But whatever the masks that fascism adopts, whatever the forms in which it presents itself, whatever the ways by which it comes to power >'Fascism is a most ferocious attack by capital on the mass of the working people;'' >Fascism is unbridled chauvinism and predatory war; >Fascism is rabid reaction and counter-revolution; >Fascism is the most vicious enemy of the working class and of all working people. "The Fascist Offensive and the Tasks of the Communist International in the Struggle of the Working Class against Fascism" by Georgi Dimitrov, Main Report delivered at the Seventh World Congress of the Communist International https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm They gave away the game as early as 1935 and you faggots still insist they aren't literally fascists. THEY FUCKING ADMITTED IT.
>>656801 That’s stupid as fuck reasoning dude, this only works if you uncritically accept every anticommunist argument against the USSR imaginable
>>656801 posted from a wheelchair, how is marxism-leninism the "power of finance capital"?
>>656816 The repudiation of Russian debt in 1918 was a great boon to state capital in Russia by releasing it of its debt obligations, which then allowed the Soviet state to begin accumulating capital through the nationalization of the economy. From then on the Soviet Union developed itself into a sufficiently powerful enough economy that it could begin its imperial ventures. Eventually, it developed enough that by the time the Soviet Union conveniently fell, the economy was already fully prepared to financialize and join the global economy. The whole Soviet Union was basically a bootstrapping project into global financial hegemony. The finance capital in the Soviet Union took on a different character because the nationalization and state planning of the economy meant that it could not express itself in the stock market. Instead, it invested in growing its bloc so that more economies could be integrated into Soviet capital accumulation. MLs play into all this as being the stewards over these affairs.
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>>656781 The CIA thanks you for your contribution
>>656875 If you think that anything in the Soviet economy realistically resembled something like "finance capital" as it exists in the West you are very wrong. Nor could anything the USSR did be considered imperialism at least not according to Leninist definitions. There was no bourgeoisie in the USSR, there was no commodity fetishism or M-C-M cycle of capital as such. Rather there was an accumulation of capital based on the objective needs of Soviet society, ie production for need not profit. A state can't be fascist in the absence of such things.
is this /pol/ so many n-bombs? I don't care if you ain't a pasty whitey a honest actor knows this is wrong in general and bad optics for our board, you support apparently.
>>657078 because /leftypol/'s main export is definitely good optics
>>657084 >anon we have shit optics, lets make them worse because fuck it.
>language policing next you'll try to cancel /leftypol/ because anon refuses to say PoC bodies instead of black people yes the slippery slope is very real in this instance.
>>657138 >if you don't like me calling you a chimpanzee nigger every other word ur an sjw saying NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER FUCKING RETARD NIGGER HAVE A HEART ATTACK NIGGER in every post makes you look like a newfag trying to fit in. there's a difference between calling anon a nigger faggot a couple times in usual chan fashion and being an obnoxious edgelord.
the fuck is a dengist
>>657138 >>657154 heres a concept. black people are black!brown people are brown! a person of a ethnicity is their ethnicity. no reason to say the n word no need for sjwism with (poc ...)
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>>657169 what the haters call anybody who actually understands Chinese socialism
>>657078 Nigger coon spook jigaboo super monkey Ball 2
okay niggers
>>657078 It's a dicksword troll or an alphabet soup spook. He can be recognized by his copious amounts of racial slurs (whichever fits the context of his latest LARP), unnecessary try-hard edge towards anyone in the thread, and the use of a Morshu macro
>>656712 Those deportations were made because the soviets wanted settle the nomadic peoples of siberia and put them in lands that were habitable, which of course leads moving a whole lot of people. Minorities in surasia aren't like in america, they aren't a difuse group of peoples living with one another they are entire nations living in blobs making any action upon them an "event", when the soviets gave them basic democratic structures it was basically the liberation day for that people and that was widely unintended for they were doing nothing but burocratic structuring in some municipality somewhere
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You are all revisionists. You are all opportunists, liars, and debasers of Marx. To understand a specific event in history you have to understand history as a totality, in this case national formation from the late 19th century to decolonization in the 60s. Unfortunately, rather than starting from real history and the actual stated reasons of the Soviet state apparatus, you're beginning from conspiracy theories you picked up from popular liberal mythology and wikipedia. Obviously reality cannot make sense from a nonsensical foundation but the solution is not to throw your hands up and decide Stalin was a madman and therefore irrational. The deportations of the time were a global-scale phenomenon, they did not effect only the Soviet Union. Six million Japanese were transferred under ameriKKKan supervision from Korea and China and millions of Koreans and Chinese were deported from Japan. So what is the relationship between the defeat of the Japanese Empire and second or third generation Japanese settlers in Korea? What's the relationship between Koreans who were deported after decades in Japan or, even worse, lost their citizenship under after the end of the Empire but stayed in Japan, becoming effectively stateless, and some kind of reasonable response? You are callously indifferent to civilians and human lives because you've been told to be and never bothered to care. This is actually one of the biggest issues both in Japan and in both Koreas but it is not an issue to white people so it might as well not exist. Your moral concern is anything but, it's you being led by the nose in support of imperialism and anti-communism, ironically the very things that cause human suffering. All of the sins of the USSR during the second world war are at worst reactions to the violence of capitalist imperialism and far less cruel than the same effects in the former Ottoman Empire, East Asia, formerly occupied central and Eastern Europe expelling millions of Germans, the former Austro-Hungarian empire, and of course the continued violence of decolonisation and national oppression in Africa and Southeast Asia. This is not a matter of ignorance and saying you were mistaken does not fix the problem because we are talking about what you feel, how you feel it, and why. Neither can you escape by pointing out that you do care about all these issues, both communist and capitalist. Not only has your indifference to those sins which are still essential to American national mythology shown this to be fully opportunistic, there are sins right now which are happening as the direct result of your existence. The only thing to blame Stalin for was the incompleteness and crudeness of otherwise necessary efforts to prevent reactionary nationalisms from growing into fascist reaction (as they eventually did in the 80s), China provides a much better example today in dealing with the same question though obviously the conditions of wartime did not allow such a comprehensive and humanitarian effort. Your concern for human beings has been weaponised and made indifferent to those races not considered human. I'm not sure it can be recovered at this point.
>>657496 You ruined an otherwise good post with dengist shilling. paying lip service to communism while exploiting just as much as any capitalist nation behind their back is con artistry, not socialism.
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>>656801 MLs are none of those things, though?
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And why are anarchists pretending to know shit about fascism? Anarchism does not have such a coherent theory that it may criticise or understand the world, it does not have a unified concept of history or historical causality. Neither does it have political structures that can legitimise certain theoretical conclusions over others or even establish schools of thought. It is just a grab bag of banal critiques of feelings of alienation endemic to modern society and mostly operates at the level of feelings. But let us flip anarchism on its head! There is a reason anarchism persists among the petty-bourgeois while Marxism (especially his critique of Kropotkin) is unbearable. For anarchism, there is direct continuity between slavery/serfdom and capitalism, with merely a chance in oppressors "stealing" our labor. Capitalists interfere with the direct relationship between nature and humanity, and eliminating them will restore the non-alienated labor of individual skill and "affective labor." In concrete terms, individual producers in voluntary organizations can link together without the parasitism of capitalists. This is a quite common fantasy even among the frauds who nefariously claim that the "end state" of Marxism and anarchism are the same, that there are merely tactical or strategic differences getting there. The petty-bourgeois, utopian nature of this should be obvious, as non-alienated labor/individual free subjectivity is already pregiven but has been robbed by the Other and must be restored so that individuality can again flourish. The important thing is that the Function of the Jew is absolutely essential in an anarchist worldview because some third force must exist which turns human relations into exploiter/exploited outside of the laws of motion of that relation. Whether it is the fantasy of small, decentralized communes cooperating, the market opposed to "capitalism," the state as external and autonomous, or even the concept of hierarchy itself, the core of Marxist anti-humanism - that relations produce their own subjects and therefore all of the tools of the proletariat (the vanguard party, the planned economy, the dictatorship of the proletariat) are not external to class consciousness but are produced by and produce it, is impossible! Utopian socialism must have an explanation for the fall from utopia and a belief in the innate qualities of nature and humanity which have been robbed by the Other. Of course nature does not exist, it is produced by social relations and changes with social relations. It shouldn't surprise anyone then that communists (or "tankies" in the crude version) serve as the Jews that cause the social antagonism and corrupt nature to Westerners raised on anti-communism and with a material interest in it. For Marxists, anarchism (a form of liberalism) and fascism are one and the same though at different dialectical moments in the movement of capital. And the Marxist conception of fascism? No worries, I won't leave you hanging. Fascism is a general reactionary illiberalism coming out of the dispossessed petty bourgeoisie. But while this definition is precise, ultimately the line between petty bourgeois and bourgeois reaction is often quite blurry, the content is essentially the same for colonised people. Take Japan for example. When did Japan become fascist? Was it 1868, when the emperor, the bourgeoisie, and the former landowners collaborated to violently develop the nation along state-capitalist lines? Was it 1905, when Korea was truly opened up for Japanese imperialist exploitation and Japan implemented a police state? Was it 1936, when the February 26th incident ended any pretense of liberalism? Was it 1944, when the desperate conditions of the war turned the Japanese homeland into a total police state with forced labor and suicidal economic policy? It was all of these, and fascism is an integral part of the normal functioning of capitalism. Subhas Chandra Bose was right and the only difference between the democracy of Britain and the fascism of Germany was that Germany was stupid enough to impose terror on its own population instead of exporting it to India. I recommend to anyone who wants to study ameriKKKan politics from first principles these two books Suburban Warriors: The Origins of the New American Right by Lisa McGirr The Silent Majority: Suburban Politics in the Sunbelt South by Matthew D. Lassiter
fuck the mods honestly. how come anti—anarchist threads get locked or anchored for “sectarianism” but anti-ML threads which are lightning rods for glowie propaganda stay in circulation until they reach the bump limit?
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>>657513 Fucketh thee, faggot! You are not an expert on China. You are not smart or special in any way. You are stupid enough to be wasting your time here as a pathetic loser and so you are the last person who gets to have a say as to whether the hundreds of millions of people involved in the Chinese Communist Party are smart enough to know what communism means, especially what it means for their conditions.
>>656801 As ive already stated previously in this thread. This definition of Fascism was coined by the explicitly pro-Soviet Dimitrov of Bulgaria and is obviously meant to be a critique of the Fascist (literal) systems of Italy and Germany
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>>657556 Only a day and a half after fascism became real. Today with the advancements by the Freudians a new understanding of Marx is found. One which better explains history as we live it.
>>657554 >You are not an expert on China no but I know enough > whether the hundreds of millions of people involved in the Chinese Communist Party are smart enough to know what communism means oh I’m sure they know what it means
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>>657561 >>657556 A new understanding of fascism, I mean. Don't misunderstand me.
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>>657562 >oh I’m sure they know what it means So you've fallen for the myth of totalitarianism instead? I would recommend Losurdo's book on it, but you don't read.
>>657572 no I just know what grifting looks like. if you think China is or will be communist you’re just another one of the autist that they’ve successfully duped
>>657572 also I recommend you do some reading on class interests
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>>657583 >you’re just another one of the autist that they’ve successfully duped Brainwashing is a science fiction concept invented to explain the support ameriKKKan soldiers had for Chinese communism when they were captured during the Korean War. The idea that white ameriKKKans could support communism and see Chinese people as human beings was so unbelievable within bourgeois ideology that a literal fantasy of mind control was invented. The strangest thing of course is that no one is ever duped, it is always everyone else who is duped. Who's to say you are not the one who has been duped into supporting supporting imperialism? In reality, if duping were possible every government in history would do it and social change would be impossible. The explanation must lie elsewhere, and this time it will do you well to think outside the paradigms of racists at the CIA in the 1950s. So what is the mechanism by which misinformation occurs? How is social change possible if people can be misled by those in power? How were you, in particular able to break free? And what does any of this have to do with the science of Marxism which begins with the idea that phenomena in the real world have material causes outside your brain? Again, you've constructed an elaborate conspiracy theory where you know the truth, it just so happens to be a conspiracy theory many people of the same class and demographic share. doop
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>>657540 >>657496 Anarchoids btfo
>>657597 >Brainwashing is a science fiction concept invented I didn’t say anything about brainwashing > Who's to say you are not the one who has been duped into supporting supporting imperialism? because I don’t support imperialism at all > In reality, if duping were possible every government in history would do it and social change would be impossible material conditions sees to it that it happens > How is social change possible if people can be misled by those in power? you say that like people aren’t misled by those in power all the time. it’s actually historically up to a small minority of people to see past it and break things up. but either way, I don’t see what any of these questions have to do with China.
The truth of it is that a Chinese man is more likely to care enough to read into Chinese communism than some pathetic loser clickety-clacketying away in their mother's bunker. There is an underlying philosphy there that is the driving force behind historical materialism and Marxism: that living, breathing human beings can think for themselves. No, I don't think you have been duped into supporting imperialism by state actors. Rather, you have been duped into even having feelings about a nation however many kilometres away that you don't _really_ care about because it is necessary to sustain your self-identity as a "communist."
I recommend starting with the manifesto and the critique of the german ideology, as the latter gives the most complete description by marx of historical materialism and the former is necessitated, but here's Losurdo's critique of your liberalism anyway http://awm.or.kr/bbs/data/document/1/Losurdo___Critique_of_Totalitarianism_(2004).pdf
>>657609 >The truth of it is that a Chinese man is more likely to care enough to read into Chinese communism than some pathetic loser clickety-clacketying away in their mother's bunker. ooh mystical Chinese essentialism! such noble elves they are! unlike those freakish ogreish Americans > There is an underlying philosphy there that is the driving force behind historical materialism and Marxism: that living, breathing human beings can think for themselves. so why don’t we have communism all over the world right now? why aren’t people voting for communist parties or against market economies? I already know what your answer to those questions are and I don’t care, I’m asking you to take your answer and put a universalist spin on it, that is all. > you have been duped into even having feelings about a nation however many kilometres away that you don't _really_ care about because it is necessary to sustain your self-identity as a "communist you are the one who started shilling for Deng. I would be happy if China were never mentioned on this website.
>>657540 >>657605 Do pure Bakuninites even exist anymore?
>>657619 I doubt you ever read Critique of the German Ideology, otherwise you wouldn’t be misreading my position on Chinese class interests as a statement of “totalitarianism”. a word which I haven’t used once in this whole thread
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>>657620 You write gibberish! Nothing you say is relevant to what you quote of me above. >so why don’t we have communism all over the world right now? why aren’t people voting for communist parties or against market economies? People _are_ voting in their interests. Remember the dispossed petty-bourgeois that I mentioned earlier? They supported Donald Trump with votes and whatnot and he is currently the figurehead of global apartheid. The largest political party is the CCP. There is not a country in Africa that did not have a communist revolution suppressed by counter-revolutionary colonisers who acted in _their_ interests. And the same is true for all of South-East Asia and the Phillipines! How do you misread me? <China provides a much better example today in dealing with the same question though obviously the conditions of wartime did not allow such a comprehensive and humanitarian effort. >you are the one who started shilling for Deng. That is not "shilling for Deng." You are braindead.
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>>657627 Unfortunately anti-semitism has become unfashionable among the petty-bourgeoisie which makes it easy for anarchists to distance themselves from these people, but the point is that the underlying psychology is not only present, but necessary for the anarchist worldview. Of course, anarchism is so incoherent these days that it can easily reject parts of the critique without ever having to confront the consequences of that rejection, unlike early anarchist philosophers who at least attempted to construct a total theory.
>>657648 All that's left is a load of good intentions, not enough good theory, a lot of subversion by alphabet soup, and a lot of molotovs being thrown. Hope Greece makes it.
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>>657651 Rather than give you a generic reply and bonk anarchism, I'll talk about something more useful. The basic causality we have of knowledge is backwards. We know that knowledge comes from praxis, but what does that really mean? In practice, it's led to an extreme focus on "doing things" as more important than hitting the books. This is probably the right strategy at a sparknotes level, one only needs to look at something like the Platypus society or academic Marxists to know that our current praxis should be oriented towards action. But you only need to look at the Sparticists to see that pure action without investigation or independent knowledge by each cadre leads to being in a cult. In a sense, the difference between Maoism and Avakianism is the difference between material conditions rather than finding the political line that's the master-key to revolution. The question used to be easily solved: follow the party line. If the party line sucks, it will manifest in reality and either the party will change lines or collapse. There are two parallel stories which changed this. The first is Kruschev's "secret" speech, which for the first time made the party line impossible to follow without contradiction. The second is the rebellion against the comintern line in the third world, most notably in China during the long march. The first line has had its final vengeance with the revelation that everything Khrushchev said was made up. But you can see truth has little influence on history. In fact, the Chinese, who had much stronger reason to accept criticism of Stalin's line, didn't need Grover Furr to tell them Khrushchev was full of shit. This led to Althusser's absolute opposition to empirical research entirely, something continued by Badiou (these figures aren't very important, just interesting to me personally to see the intellectual lineage which spreads out in to general liberal postmodernism, robbed of its historicity). But you don't need to go so far. Simply accept that until the material conditions develop, we cannot build a communist party that is capable of producing its own worldview (which is why we rely on bourgeois academics to tell us what to think, either for or against), and until that happens your knowledge will necessarily be limited and there's nothing you can do about it. The same "facts" led to two radically different outcomes in the USA and China, and the only explanation for that is deeply structural. You cannot force praxis to happen through will, believing that is what led to the current ultra-left form of Maoism we see in the first world which comes directly out of the RCP tradition (literally, the "party line" if it exists is recycled RCP polemics against Cuba and North Korea from the 70s). This is from me to you because I assume we're both Marxists. what is remarkable in my party work is how little these questions bother the working class people I know. The ultimate irony is that while working class militants are mostly concerned with the usefulness of knowledge to class struggle, if you dig deep enough into academic philosophy you'll find that this is the standard of truth that has survived post-structuralism. It's only in the middle, of the petty-bourgeois communists who think they know everything but don't know enough about one specific thing, that this idea of mastering the world through reading everything on the planet (usually wikipedia is the substitute even at the highest levels) exists.
quit bumping this fucking glow thread. you're not going to convince OP and if you're giving him a second thought you're being retarded
>>657597 >In reality, if duping were possible every government in history would do it and social change would be impossible. Every government in history has to some extent or another lied to their populace. The issue is that you cannot maintain falsehoods indefinitely in the face of growing evidence to the contrary. Or am I to truly believe that the people who gave their entire life savings to religious con-men who managed to successfully convince a number of people that they needed their soul saving as the world was ending tomorrow were in fact led to doing what was in their best interest?
>>657620 can we nuke these glow threads already
>>657661 >>657648 >>657619 >>657597 >>657540 >>657496 Absolutely BASED anon. Good stuff. China is obviously not beyond criticism, but you certainly have dispelled unnecessary and stupid accusations about it. PS What anime is that?

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