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/leftybritpol/ - PLM edition Anonymous 06/28/2020 (Sun) 18:56:01 No. 648706
Palestinian Lives Matter.
Jewish Lives Matter
>>648733 but zionist lives sure as hell don't
Keir Starmers life does not matter
Uuuuduuur ooooh I’m Sandy hail I’ve never organised more than a march alongside stand up to racism in my life ahahah fuck trots right lmao
>>650357 Who is that?
>>650360 Hahaha ooooh Sandy Hale only the most radical of radical hahah don’t you know I get together with my chums to call out radlibs on twittter hahah we are all 35+ and we spend that much time on Twitter ahahahaha true revolution hahaha
>>650370 Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
>>650370 Is this some kind of advanced esoteric rugposting?
>>650370 Where you in that other britpol thread complaining about this random women
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>>650357 >>650370 seek help
Hahahaha lol no I’m Sandy Hale I literally invented communism in the UK don’t you know, I invented the term radlib. I invented the red block. I literally invented class struggle
>>650376 I am basically a rug man but unlike harpal I sell redtek t shirts instead of rugs
>>650383 >being drunk at 11:40am
>>650389 >being Sandy Hale at any point in time >ooooh yeh JK Rowling might be a blairite but did you here she also doesn’t like trans people >omg based a true comrade >fuck anarchists and trots tho right lmao
>>650389 >Not sipping a tin on your nearest roadside bench
>>650370 Too be fair, communists in Britain are utterly pathetic, including all of us. There is not one communist movement in the UK I think even comes close to be doing anything useful. There's a communist movement in my area, one of the most deprived areas in Britain. The houses here are moldy and damp, people are walking around with no teeth in their 20's, old women freeze in the winter. When I inquired to join and asked them if they wanted me to do anything at that moment as a volunteer, they asked me to hand out the party newsletter. I never even e-mailed back a response.
>>650401 Eventually the British state will collapse from the critical mass of people outside Number 10 trying to breach the gates to hand them newsletters.
>>650383 >sperging out over perhaps the most obscure leftist ever referenced on this board lol type Sandy Hale into google and you get an IMDB page with no profile picture before getting anything about the morning star
>>650401 Helping your community requires money which this org doubtless doesn't have Why should we help bastards that voted Tory anyways? Let them rot
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what's all this about long walks on sandy beaches?
>>650405 I genuinely think every communist party in Britain has within in some aspect of the British psyche that dominates it and stops it being effective. These communists I reached out to weren't stuck up intellectuals, they were local people who know the deal is here. But in this case, that was their problem: they think this area is easy to crack because its poor, but that's not necessarily true. Just because an area is in intense suffering doesn't mean they're going to read your letter and become revolutionaries the next day. In fact, the poorest people are often the most cynical. Their issue isn't that they're stuck up, its the opposite. They're bubbly working class types who think because they're interested in communism, the rest of the working class will be, when that's not inherently true.
>>650419 Money isn't the central issue, its time.
>>650419 But a lot of them didn't?
>>650430 I meant old people in particular, but yeah, overall like, nobody has ever helped me so why should I help anyone? Why am I gonna go clean some old biddie's place for free when I can't even get a job?
>>650425 Why are you talking about this here with us, instead of talking about it with them?
>>650425 This is even more depressing. Take this realistic portrayal out of my mind and put the strawmen back in right this second.
>>650436 >nobody has ever helped me so why should I help anyone to break this cycle of abuse
>>650457 why should i try to do anything for a world that has never given me any sense of purpose or validation? I only want to burn stuff down and kill
>>650445 I haven't spoke to them in well over a year, and I doubt they'd care, considering I'm not a member of their party.
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>>650522 utopia
>>650487 You have the same disease they do, get better together
How much of the antisemitism witch-hunt was caused by leftists being nervous spergs who can't articulate opposition to Zionism without sounding like closet Jew-haters?
>>650555 Starmer taking the brave stance of boldly standing up and saying "Yeah, I'm a cop"
>>650601 Go back to your containment thread JIDF.
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from the archives
>>650601 it was caused entirely by the media being pals with Tories and Blairites i.e. Zionists. That is literally all it is.
>>650419 >Helping your community requires money which this org doubtless doesn't have No but your local bank does
>>650419 Word. Let the Tory voters die under their own errors. They had a choice in 2017 and 2019 and threw it away. No more.
i like the way snrug thinks
>>650709 I'm going to be voting Green :o)
>>650735 B R I G H T O N R I G H T O N
>>650749 I don't live in Brighton but you know you gotta voote!
>>650752 come to brighton and be my bf
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>>650757 Okay!
(1.44 MB Labour Posad.webm)
>>650709 >marx and engels supported voting for socialists but knew party politics could not lead to socialism >this is used by shitlibs to argue they would have supported voting for people like Starmer, Biden, or Macon Why do you have to be so slippery?
>>650555 Part of me is glad this happened. Mask off for the Blairites. Question is, who will replace Labour?
>>650798 >he thinks i'm advocating voting for Starmer, Biden or Macron liberals aren't socdems Sweden which isn't socdem anymore but run with it. isn't the USA.
>>650798 >If we are the party of the revolutionary class, and not merely a revolutionary group, and if we want the masses to follow us (and unless we achieve that, we stand the risk of remaining mere windbags), we must, first, help Henderson or Snowden to beat Lloyd George and Churchill (or, rather, compel the former to beat the latter, because the former are afraid of their victory!); second, we must help the majority of the working class to be convinced by their own experience that we are right, i.e., that the Hendersons and Snowdens are absolutely good for nothing, that they are petty-bourgeois and treacherous by nature, and that their bankruptcy is inevitable; third, we must bring nearer the moment when, on the basis of the disappointment of most of the workers in the Hendersons, it will be possible, with serious chances of success, to overthrow the government of the Hendersons at once; because if the most astute and solid Lloyd George, that big, not petty, bourgeois, is displaying consternation and is more and more weakening himself (and the bourgeoisie as a whole) by his “friction” with Churchill today and with Asquith tomorrow, how much greater will be the consternation of a Henderson government! since Labour essentially replaced the Liberal party and are barely even socdem Keynesians (let alone socialists), who would be the equivalent here to Henderson and Snowden? because if it's either the Socialist Campaign Group or the carpet-barterers, i'm going to cut my cock off
Remember when Marco Pierre White used a slur against Travelers on TV during a cooking contest and when one of the contestants politely asked him not to do it, Marco kicked off the show and Marco was portrayed as the mature good guy and the contestant was portrayed like a vicious little whining lefty? 00's TV was mad.
>>648706 Obvious dog whistle, the african american community is still very reactionary.
>>651025 I noticed its used mostly by radlibs and not that much by marxists
>>651023 Yes they are very hostile to lgbt, like the palestinians, if you openly gay in palestine, you ded.
>>650709 fuck sweden but i agree with this
>>650839 Haven't you said you're an unironic Keynesian? That is liberalism
>>651064 while you're sitting here looking for the slightest hint of liberalism, i'm doing DXM and astral projecting myself into a trip around communist china with Joan Robinson, then awkwardly sitting in her flat pilfering her wine as she writes positively of the cultural revolution. examine your life choices.
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>>651092 unspeakably based shall be showing this to joan in the comment section of https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/27/we-are-in-desperate-need-of-a-recovery-plan-but-the-treasury-has-gone-missing while she's looking for more stories for the future to make her writing dangerously prescient.
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>>651071 >>651071 >while you're sitting here looking for the slightest hint of liberalism, i'm doing DXM and astral projecting myself into a trip around communist china with Joan Robinson, then awkwardly sitting in her flat pilfering her wine as she writes positively of the cultural revolution. examine your life choices.
i made that image you didn't even think it through, since when is DXM a tarq drug? you should've posted an american child or something.
>>651092 kek. He does sound like a guardian commenter with his unfunny rambling radio 4 "humour"
tfw too high energy for rug sellers
>>651128 >we don't just call anyone a rug seller in this general! >anyone who doesn't like me is a rug seller
A lot of people voted to leave Europe as a protest vote, which, I understand that, I sympathise with it. If you spend your life posting on /leftybritpol/, like me, you can see the disparity that would drive that. My best friend of 35 years, Anonymous, actually voted to leave Europe as a protest vote. But I believe it was I who posted… (GENTLE LAUGHTER) Still these people doing the work, isn’t it? Down here, there’s a… (LAUGHTER) There’s a big laugh there that was missed, right, and I’m screencapping this, and I would appreciate… (LAUGHTER) OK, where… What… Where the… Do you know what? I’m going to try. I’m going to try and sort this out now, for the screencap, so… Where the laugh should have been there, right, is when I went… (SMALL GROUP LAUGHS) I know you know, it’s… (LAUGHTER) “I know, anon!” (LAUGHTER) The kind of people that like me, innit? (ANON LAUGHS) Yeah, you. (LAUGHTER) Cackling sycophants. LAUGHTER The people that are with him hate him, because he goes to them, “Have you not heard of Stewart Lee? He’s amazing, I can’t believe it. “Probably the best comedian… “No, he’s not been on /GET/, obviously. “You know, I think when you’ve seen him, “you can’t really read other posters. “It’s more like outsider art, really.” Yeah. The kind of people that like me, innit? Based anons, basically. But, you know, without them, that was… OK, the laugh there should have been when I said… “I believe it was I who posted,” right? What they’re laughing at down there, they’re going, “Oh, yeah, he’s parodying the idea,” the perception of myself as a sort of patronising elitist who would quote his own work as a… But, you know, you’re just going, “What an arrogant man,” aren’t you? Up there, so it’s not… But anyway, try and listen in and close the gaps up because we need to… (LAUGHTER) So, I believe it was I who wrote… (LAUGHTER) I don’t accept the second laugh. I only take the first one, so… It was me, it was in the Guardian comments section, it was a very clever piece. That one Chavez flag poster’s ill a lot, isn’t he? So… I wrote, “Voting to leave Europe as a protest vote “is a bit like shitting up your main thread as a protest against slow posting speeds“and then realising you now have to post in a shitted thread.”
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>>651146 based but let down by my own abysmal editing of the source material sufficiently bad that it falls short of my own low standards. not as some gimmicky "Oh maybe this'll be a bit funny" sort of fun thing, nah, i just fucked this one up big time. sorry lad.
>>650832 >Question is, who will replace Labour? PASOK
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>>648706 Zionists supporting wokelets and having it end up biting them in the butt lel
>>650832 >Question is, who will replace Labour? The corpses of Tories and Northerners. But really who cares?
>>650357 Literally who???
>>650832 CPGB-ML
>>651252 Nah, it be the "Workers" Party. Although Joti Brar runs it with George Galloway so yeah, partly CPGB-ML, which will make them the biggest hypocrites ever.
>>648706 >annexation of the westbank WTF? Why lie, only hebrew parts will be incorperated.
>>651350 the parts where they bulldozed palestinians homes and built new shit that they gave to the chosen people?
>>651350 oh well that's okay then
Nothing will replace Labour, this is the end of history Not in the liberalism rules forever way, in the we're all going to die way
>>651013 i also remember a bit when thatchers kids came in and asked him for an autograph, he said no, but then they said it was for their mother, which he then agreed to because he was a great fan
>>651023 nice bait
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>>653053 >Marco Pierre White is a fan of Thatcher
>>653201 You didn't know that he is a hardcore rightwinger? Even I know that, and I'm not even British.
>>648706 How much salt did this tweet generate?
>>653201 he can probably cook but his politics is shit
>>653205 Sadly, no I didn't >>653245 I see that now
>>653269 He used to sperg about how horrible it woulod be if Labour ever gained any political power. This was during the Blair era, btw.
>>653281 Fucking Christ...
>>653281 >This was during the Blair era so he was right :^) god it's weird how many mongs thought labour was still too left wing under blair. the economist, the eternal rag of every wrongheaded midwit arsehole opinion in this grey and unpleasant land was the same.
>>654297 >The Economist >"The London Economist is the European organ of aristocracy and finance" <t. Marx
In the LTV, if its food being produced, does the time it takes for the food to grow factor in? Say it takes 20 hours of actual total physical labour to grow 5 tomatoes and the rest is just waiting (for months), does that mean the necessary labour time is 20 hours, or 1000's of hours because that's how long it too to grow?
>>654629 thinking about how even JFK was tearing shit out of the economist for opposing re-armament in the run up to WW2 until the last minute. other historical greatest hits: In the 1860s, The Economist stood nearly alone among liberal opinion in Britain in supporting the Confederacy against the Union, all in the name of access to cheap Southern “Blood Cotton” and fear of higher tariffs if the North triumphed. “The Economist was unusual,” writes an historian of English public opinion at the time; “Other journals still regarded slavery as a greater evil than restrictive trade practices.”
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She is a plant
>>654636 Not sure why you are posting in this thread, but it is the human man hours. A good way to look at it is through the Georgist view of land. In Georgism, land is an inherent constant. Value is created from land when humans modify it. Say, build a house. As such, the only value an individual should garner from it (since it is productive) is from the house itself. Now if you take the labour put into a crop. Say, a field had wild potatoes growing in it (rare in Europe I know but still). An individual could still harvest them, they just would have put no effort into growing them, and all of their labour would be in locating them and harvesting them. Now consider non-monoculture methods of agriculture, like the Amerindians of the Amazon. There they cultivate wild crops in a different specific area each season. Now they have not planted said crops, but are putting in labour hours to cultivate them before harvest. How is that different from planting the crop itself? It isn't really, they are just different methods of agriculture. AS such the growing time should not be counted, just the labour hours put in planting, cultivating, and harvesting.
>>654756 >1 million Muslims in concentration camps Do these faggots really believe what they write?
>>654770 Ah. Makes sense really, I guess the only way the waiting time could be counted is if you had to sit there and watch it for it to grow. I only posted here because I'm British, its active, and there's was no-one more appropriate to ask it.
>>654772 they think Chinese people are the borg and are capable of any heinous act
>>654772 don't see what's hard to imagine about that (i'm not playing devil's advocate for the whole thing because quoting stephen kinnock approvingly is inexcusable behaviour, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to imagine that china could do it, even if you don't believe they did.)
>>654792 surprise surprise the rose wanker is going to nitpick in favour of the new cold war
>>654794 whining but no explanation why the world's second power couldn't lock up 1 million people while the first power can lock up 2.5 million
>>654801 No shit. It's just that based on the evidence it's obviously bullshit and from shady sources
>>654756 https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1277912007619067906 The replies are funny, who the fuck is upbonging it if everyone in the replies is shitting on her?
>>654792 This stuff is from some christian fundamentalist China Watcher who works for the Victims of Communism Foundation, so yeah its complete bullshit.
>>654809 That's not a response to that. If the USA can lock up 2.5m people, how come China couldn't do so with 1m people? Or are the Asiatic types inferior at imprisonment.
>>654825 She has a lot of supporteers, but people actively hate her for existing. There was a conspiracy theory she was celebrating a knife attack in Reading because she posted a picture of her eating an Ice Lolly with three oranges on it.
>>654938 i decided to take it as being "china could, and the implication otherwise was just ambiguous wording" tbh
>>654776 Fair enough. I mean some crops do require constant cultivation, especially if you are growing them in a non-acclimatised region (tomatoes & bananas in greenhouses for example), but they also tend to be more expensive.
>>654944 I know that mr didn't even bother opening the link. It's communists shitting on here and little else.
>>654756 <1 million Muslims in concentration camps >The current population of the State of Palestine is 5,099,995 as of Tuesday, June 30, 2020, based on Worldometer elaboration of the latest United Nations data. wew e w
https://nation.cymru/news/half-of-conservative-voters-in-england-support-english-independence-poll/ >With don’t knows and those who refused to answer removed, the poll shown that overall 35% of people in England now favour English independence.
>>650360 I think you're better off not knowing
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>>655552 Independence from what?
>>655615 dependence
>>655617 England is more dominant in Great Britain than Serbia in Yugoslvia or Russia in the USSR.
>>655685 If you read this in Harpal's voice it's soothing
>>655731 hello newfriend!
>>655821 almost certainly been on leftypol longer than the sucdems
>>655731 Hoes mad.
>>655842 when did you join /leftypol/ i'll post some pictures older than (you), unless you've actually been here longer than me in which case i'll equivocate for a while then try and play it off by doing something awkward like finding and posting some furry socdem art
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if ever there was proof that social democracy is a dead ideology
>FF and FG forming a government How long are you betting this will last? I give it three, maybe five months tops
>>655947 Wait, what?
>>655947 when micheal martin flees to the cayman islands with 20 mil in embezzled cash so yeah, three, five months
>>655947 It should last for about 4 years. People were saying that the 2016 Government would last less than a year but this Government is slightly more stable.
>>656570 The question is can SF grow and expand itself as the main opposition party to FF-FG and takeover the Dail when the breakdown comes
>>656576 SF should be looking at around 7-13 seat gains in the next election, most of which will be at the expense of FF and right-wing independents
>>656589 interesting, do you think Labour or Social Democrats would be willing to form a government with SF should it "win" and become bigger than either party in the FF-FG duopoly?
>>656605 >Labour No >SocDems Yes, and SF will also have S-PBP onboard and possibly I4C, as well as left-wing independents like Catherine Connolly and Thomas Pringle. And also the Greens. The proposed Left-Wing coalition was 8 (?) seats short last time, so the maths are definitely there for a Left-Wing coalition for the next Government. >and become bigger than either party in the FF-FG duopoly? Yes, FF-FG-LAB have been collectively but slowly losing support since the 1977 election. They will lose more support in the next election. The only possible way they will be able to maintain power is by incorporating some right-wing independents like in 2016, but all of them lost their seats this year and, as I said, the opposition right-wing TDs will be a notably smaller group after the next election.
Now Jimbo it’s easy to lay the blame for the collapse of the Labour Party solely at the feet of tony blair but we have to remember if wasn’t for Benn, Wilson, Foot and Kinnock being such a cuck a ducks that they let them into the party to start with we wouldn’t have this problem
>>656635 >PBP People before Profit is basically the actual (relevant) Irish Communist .org yes?
>>656653 Wilson did nothing wrong, Benn wasn't a cuck, neither was foot. Kinnock tho, he fucked up teh Rates-capping rebellion so hard it still makes me angry.
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>>656658 I am a member of PBP and I was a member of the Bríd Smith canvassing team during the February election. Yes, PBP is anti-Capitalist and places more emphasis on building a Mass Movement than Electoralism, they embody the ideals of James Connolly more than any other party in the Dáil. Up North they reject Green/Orange identity politics and are effectively the only party capable of bringing together the Working Class of both sides to fight for their shared material interests. A study from the University of North Carolina last year placed PBP as the second most anti-EU left-wing party in the EU (just behind KKE).
>>656705 Based
is sinn fein any good did gerry adams really send his niece back to her dad when she told him he was abusing her
>>657699 Sounds like something no sane person would care about
>>657699 >is sinn fein any good Much worse now but not blairite level so still better than FF/FaG
>>657732 What can Sinn Fein do to not be bad in your eyes?
>>657739 Grow some balls
https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1278237725339115521 Momentum announces its belated death. Forward momentum types will sink any viable leftist movement in this country.
>>657943 >Forward momentum types will sink any viable leftist movement in this country. Good job they're committed to keeping themselves in Labour then
>>657943 Aren't most of the candidates just Lansman proxies anyway? What do you mean by announcing its belated death?
>>657750 A meaningless platitude.
>>657963 Gonna assume from Sam Kriss and Bernie this article is about the American Momentum.
The Forward Momentum (FM) change slate has won all of the places on Momentum’s National Coordinating Group (NCG) elected by Momentum members, defeating the continuity ‘Momentum Renewal’ campaign. ‘Renewal’ had been organised by a cadre of north-west ‘fixers’ close to founder Jon Lansman to fight off the FM challenge and had been described as a front for ‘business as usual‘ to protect the existing Momentum establishment. The news means that Momentum is unlikely to endorse founder Jon Lansman in the NEC elections and should result in a far higher chance of a unified left slate for that contest. Insiders had said Lansman had stepped down from the NCG slate in return for Momentum’s support for the NEC. Now it’s up to FM to justify the support it has received from Momentum members and drive through real change and democratisation. via https://skwawkbox.org/2020/07/01/forward-momentum-slate-wins-clean-sweep-of-member-elected-ncg-places/
>>656674 >Wilson did nothing wrong Several of his appointed officials and even some of his cabinet members and ministers later outed themselves as Kinnock fags / Blairites in the 90s if not literally becoming fucking tory’s
>>657943 What’s momentum why are they having an inner party election and why is this bad?
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>>657982 Kek this retard won a seat too. >>657991 Most left wing organisation of Labour, probably got more members left than Labour at this point.
>>657992 Momentum has less than 10,000 members/.
>>657995 Really? Thought it was way higher, never checked though. Serves me right for taking retards on twitter at face value.
>>657982 Forward momentum is radlib id-pol merchants from the big cities. Also hardcore europhiles.
>>657996 Alot of people associate with momentum but aren't members. There is really no reason to be a member unless you want an endorsement.
>>657997 Renewal's fault for cutting deals with Lansman. I imagine most people were voting just to get rid of him.
>>657989 tbf his whole deal was holding the labour party together when it was ridiculously divided, it's not surprising half of the people around him turned out to be cunts. (the fun argument to have if you can get blairites, socdems and socialists in a room together is: which half?)
What's the newest excuse for staying in Labour now that the NEC will be lost
>>658102 Getting a comfy 10k safeseat on the council
>>658102 annoying people itt you get a card pretending keir starmer is e-mailing you seeking your opinions on the big issues the people in the uni labour club will think you're cool
>>658116 Lmao out of intrest which uni labour?
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We will consider decisive action such as putting a together a non partisan committee to decide upon the provisional name of a think tank to research alternatives
>>658149 Pic related is not a bad idea tbh it is essentially a Senate
>>658149 Abolish the Lords with a guillotine
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>>658119 none, it just fit the bit.
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I have successfully perfected the time machine and after using it 6 times to break every bone in my younger self's body, I used it to visit azquote from the year 2029. (it's a pretty good year, the Irish have invaded Britain and proclaimed it the United Republic. Starmer's still going, supported by both the US and China at the UN as the legitimate PM in a coalition with the deposed King.)
>Maybe whoever replaces Corbyn wont be that bad? >Ok But Keir still has the Corbyn holdovers to keep him in line. *Voice becomes more shrill* >Yeah But...but someone even more right-wing then him could have been elected >The...The NEC election will balance things out! *Their face is red their crying now* >M...Momentum won’t stand for this an...And Kier will have to listen when half the party threatens to walk! <LABOUR COPERS ARE HERE >M...MAYBE THE YOUNG LABOUR ELECTION CAN STULL COME OUT WITH OURGUYS ON TOP RIGHT!!??!!!! It’s genuinely insane. A popular mass movement and reinvigorated Labour Party That Corbyn spent the last half a decade building was just fucking demolished in a few months
>>658215 that's what happens when you don't pull a stalin and purge until you're safe
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>>658224 that's what happens when you ignore the lessons of the last Labour leader to win a general election. fortunately Starmer has kept up with his reading.
>>658150 or Bundesrat, Federation Council (Russia), Federal Council (Austria), Rajya Sabha, Council of States (Switzerland) or the upper house of almost every other federal republic
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can you tell i'm having a slow afternoon? i'm reading the guardian for crying out loud
No but seriously though On the wrecking scale with 10 being Gorbachev a 1 being Lenin and a 5 being generic Trot split group #242. Where does Keir sit?
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>>658261 one movement's wrecker is another movement's lenin, so you've got to ask by who's scale are we to judge him?
>>658261 How does one even quantify wrecking lol, he's there to turn Labour back into controlled opposition and purge the left for an actual answer.
>>658270 >purging the labour party's left wing so he's eradicating the controlled opposition within the controlled opposition?
>>658264 Notice how no one replies to your unfunny forced memes
>>658316 I'm sure he will keep the MPs around so they can s t a y a n d f i g h t
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(they do like making it easy, don't they)
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>>654825 >she's getting upboats by actual nazis kek
>>655615 from the United Kingdom. fuck this shitty union, time to break it apart
>>658352 Childish liberalism
>>658224 this. "big tent party" is a literal porky wrecker meme
>>658354 more like necessary step
>>658150>>658149 >>658154 Abolishing the lords and creating a senate is retarded. Think about how hard it was to get even close to having corbyn in office, now imagine that plus a second chamber. This is socdem bullshit that sounds good if you spend no time thinking about it.
>>658399 It is only bad because it is still under a bourgeois democracy, but a genuinely UoB should have something similar
>>658445 why two houses though? what would the point in that be?
>>658464 One based on muh population, another based on muh region, to keep the UoB being under the thumb of Londoners and English people in general.
>>658472 2 houses is a force of reaction. Its built in anti-revolutionary architecture. All it does it make laws harder to pass and give arbitrary power to rural populations.
>>658399 a senate as broken as the US one would be in labour's favour* and a senate with proportional representation wouldn't be much more harmful than the house of lords as it currently stands. that said the whole idea has an air of reddit to it. it's the sort of thing that makes political science students happy while making normal weirdos uneasy, like condorcet voting. (plus of course, a leftish government would have an easier time abolishing the lords to get stuff done than it would abolishing a newly created senate.) *4 nation senate: snp/labour/dup/tory (worst case scenario on 2019 results) = tie, regionalized senate: snp scotland/labour north/tory south/tory midlands/labour london/dup ireland/labour wales = labour majority vs the current situation: 243 tories, 177 labour, 89 lib dems, 55 unaffiliated, 178 crossbench. = labour+lib dem agreement possible, but an unreasonable number of "labour" ones are literal blair era blairites anyway.
>>658399 But you admit abolishing the lords is necessary?
>>658486 >give arbitrary power to rural populations honestly this kind of power jockeying is exactly why we need a federal structure with limited powers at the top and devolving as many powers to councils as structurally possible
>>658651 No its not federalism is also reactionary.
>>655927 early 2016
Lots of tears over the Hong Kong hooligans getting put in their place today.
>>658693 how in the fuck is it reactionary? do you even know what the word means? in the context of britain where we are basically a few steps away from an actual monarchy considering the house of lords and the prominence of the crown in applying soft power it is absolutely NOT reactionary
>>658718 Federalism will mean the breakup of Great Britain.
>>658718 We have a tiny island and one part of another island, let's just return that part and have one state on the tiny island of Britain. Devolution/federalism is only wanted because our bourg government is inadequate
>>658722 first of all no it won't, second of all that is still the opposite of reactionary considering past english imperialism that led to the united kingdom in the first place >>658733 >Devolution/federalism is only wanted because our bourg government is inadequate this is true, but self determination should still be honoured like it was in the soviet union with the creation of autonomous oblasts. there's a reason why USSR was a union of republics not a republic, and that was that it spanned many different peoples and cultures.
>>658718 Federalism transfers power from a central force that is easier to be wielded by a dictatorship of the proletariat to regional levels. Further any regional revolution is bound to fail. They would be put down by federal power or stopped by neighbours. Even any attempt at a revolutionary state is harder simply due to the lack of people. Also regional identity itself is reactionary.
>>658722 noooooooooo not the heckin briterino
>>658756 retard
>>658755 >Federalism transfers power from a central force that is easier to be wielded by a dictatorship of the proletariat to regional levels. this is a good thing, all power to the soviets. the dictatorship of the proletariat failed because the bureaucracy grew out to be a class of its own and alienated the workers, which is why reactionaries won in the USSR in the end despite popular demand to the contrary. >Further any regional revolution is bound to fail. They would be put down by federal power or stopped by neighbours. revolution against what? we are talking about the context of worker's power being already established in britain, not just slapping federalism on existing bourg structures >Even any attempt at a revolutionary state is harder simply due to the lack of people. what does that even mean? a federal government needs to negotiate with regional states which in the context of a socialist federal government would mean taking into account local council demands, in what way is this bad? >Also regional identity itself is reactionary. so I guess Lenin was reactionary then https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/097492847102700104?journalCode=iqqa
>>658791 I think we're arguing along different tracks. Federalism is groovy in a socialist future.I don't care for federalism before then.
>>658820 don't really care for federalism before the revolution either tbh, it really won't change much other than "muh queen interfering in our bourg politics". but unironically a federal socialist republic is what we should be aiming for as a result of the revolution, skipping the dotp stage which has sort of been proven to fail
>>658777 larper
>>658835 chill
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little known fact: Rupert Murdoch is a rug merchant
>>658851 I don't remember the electrification of Russia being this extensive.
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You can harass refugees from hong kong it is allowed by the TUC
>>658956 I hope so every citizen of hong kong is a class traitor.
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Keir Starmer explains why Labour doesn't have a policy of making dentistry free on the NHS
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This is sickening.
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>british empire good and brexit bad Was he made in a lab to be loathed by as many people as possible?
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>>660903 zoomer memes for your childish ideology
>>660907 My mans out here defending “great” Britain
>>660907 Refer to >>660903 again
>>660908 Time for a history lesson kids. What's an alternative name for the region of Brittany in France? You get a gold sticker for explaining the relationship between that name and the name of our island
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>>660907 stop eating from the trash
>>658718 It gives more power to tiny minority
>>658651 Yeah that work/ed great in AmeriKKKa
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>>660876 >REASONED why do right wing cranks always insist on larping like this
>>661130 so does vanguardism but sometimes that's based
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>>658172 >>658245 >>660387 ngl i'm disappointed these didn't take off. i can take or leave the rest, but i'll stand behind those.
Lads, should the left be threatening journalists? Maybe they wouldn't be so happy to smear everyone as an IRA Anti-semite if we had anti liar action who just battered them and harassed them in their homes for posting this filth
>>661317 leftists should do a pre-TERF era wings over scotland type thing where they tear apart nonsense press articles it's a little more difficult because the UK press is more of a sprawling mess and isn't universally anti-left in the way that the Scottish press is practically universally anti-independence, and also because they tend to write more of their own copy rather than just publishing party press releases, but if you could do it solidly and reliably it would be a good resource to have. Another Angry Voice is sort of in the right area but doesn't quite hit it right-on. It's not as narrowly focused or defined.
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Thought up a new agitprop strat for discussing tax evasion/expropriating offshore accounts Talking about investing in public services or protecting the NHS clearly falls flat, since every government just pumps cash into ponzi schemes and gives contracts to the most blatant Tony-Soprano-style crooks, whether or not you voot bloo or red. Economic stimuli funded by crackdowns on tax evasion will always be regarded as suspect, since years of malfeasance has led the public to believe (to a greater or lesser degree) that government spending is a scam (because under capitalism, it is.) TBH I firmly believe that a socialist party could massively boost support for cracking down on tax dodgers by presenting it as a battle against money laundering and criminal activity God knows the amount of heinous crimes that Britain's porkies commit: extortion, fraud, embezzlement, bribery, financing openly criminal/terrorist organisations, paying for assassinations, sex trafficking, child abuse, the list goes on - ALL financed with the aid of tax havens and offshore accounts People may be morally conflicted about tax avoidance (I mean if my taxes are paying for some Tory civil servant's loft extension, I don't want to fucking pay them), but raping kids? blackmail? bribing politicians? - Every major criminal organisation is bound to have tons of cash sloshing around in the Cayman Islands, Cook Islands, Bermuda, etc - Every "dissident" oligarch/property baron from Russia, China, Gulf states has built their empires on murder, robbery, and exploitation - Capitalist decay has allowed serial pedophiles and crime lords to operate openly in high society Since Epstein's murder and the shit with Prince Andrew, there has never been a better time to wage war on porcine tax dodgers and focusing on the sclerotic public sector doesn't raise the stakes high enough You vote for a capitalist party (no matter how reformist or reactionary), you vote for pedophilia
>>660521 that copper hugging his foot was lucky he didn't get kicked in the face, a lot of people might reflexible do that if something latches on to them in this manor.
>>660876 he's always been a knobhead. Remember when he namedropped Enoch Powell during the 2011 riots? Also he point about it being along time ago makes no sense. he's supposed to be an expert on the Tudors, he should know how long lasting the effects of the reformation are, for example.
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Why did Brits bully our girl so much
>>650782 BBC Enter The rose Labour 80s era documentary is essential viewing
>>660908 That's the correct name for this country.
serious question here. Scottish nationalists always says "we are oppressed by England" that's why their nationalism is good. but how exactly have they been oppressed by England?
>>662950 they took our oil
>>662950 They stopped us stabbing each other over religion
>>662950 They drove them off the land and replaced them with sheep
>>662950 They sound slightly different to us and we don't like that
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>>662950 I would dispute that Scottish nationalists actually always say this except when steered into it. Very little of modern Scottish nationalism has much reference to England at all: It wants independence from Britain. (Which is largely synonymous with England, but an important distinction nonetheless. The problem is the union, not the component parts.) So start from first principles: Scotland is a country. Countries should decide things for themselves. Scotland is in a union with England. England is bigger than Scotland and can outvote it on everything at Westminster. Scotland therefore cannot decide things for itself. This is a ridiculous aberration. Consider that Scots haven't voted Tory in appreciable numbers since the 1950s but regularly get stuck with them anyway. (The same is true of the North, etc, too. But there is a common understanding by northerners and southerners that they live in the same country. It's also true of Wales, but this is - if anything - a legitimating point for Welsh nationalism.) To this I would add a few other factors: 1. Scotland has almost no native bourgeoisie. Where a Scotsman hits it big in business he very quickly finds himself pulled by his class interest towards the British market and towards a British national identity. Often, he moves down to England. As a result, any class antagonism between the Bourgeoisie and the Scottish working class + civil society (including Scotland's native elites - Lawyers, head teachers, clergy, etc.) becomes sublimated into the national question. This has a long pedigree: Pedants will point out that Scotland joined the union "voluntarily", but it was a voluntary move on the part of the nobility and the bourgeoisie. The average Scottish worker wanted no truck with it. Blame there lies partially with the former Scottish elite selling out their country, and partially with the English for bribing them into doing so. 2. The Scottish economy is structured differently to the English economy. Interest rates are set in the interest of the whole UK, which in practice often meant to the detriment of Scotland and the benefit of London. (the same is true of the north again) At the same time, where SNP policy dances around an independent currency this is a moot point. 3. The squandering of North Sea oil wealth which was a tragedy for the entire UK strikes particularly hard in Scotland where there lingered the alternative of buggering off and taking it with them. (Contrary to the lazy accountants view that this would enrich Scotland at the expense of England, this would actually have been better for both countries than what we did irl, assuming a separate Scottish and English pound.) 4. The generally dismissive attitude taken towards Scottish affairs by English politicians and elites and their gross ignorance as regards those affairs. There are other factors but that's a quick gloss.
>>663065 Even this quite good explanation of current animosity is so reliant on history enthusiast shite about forgotten kingdoms as though anyone living today has any stake in that or should give a shit
>>662994 No, Scots did that. t. Scot whose ancestors were driven off their land by sheep.
>>663065 Worth noting on the whole "not native bourgeoisie" thing is that there is a section of the modern bourgeoisie that supports Scottish independence and almost all of them are foreign.
Lets just assume as part of a hypothetical another scot referendum and also a welsh and NI unification referendum happened and all of them succeed due to like the aftermath of Brexit + Tory rule or whatever. What would Westminster's plan for that be? Do they have apocalypse protocols for like if the union is about to totally collapse USSR-1991 style?
>>663189 my recollection is that they had no serious plans for a Yes vote in 2014, hence the abject panic that set in when Yes polled ahead for the first time.
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Why did Labour wait till literally the most important British election of the 20th century to have a stupid bitch fight over the EU nukes and whether man man bumb bumb sex was festy or whatever the fuck and basically split in two months before the election?
>>663201 Maggie won the Falklands. Simpel as.
>>663201 Because social democrats exist to wreck.
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>>663201 the underlying problems had been building up for just over a decade at the latest (~1971-2 when Jenkins started defying Labour policy, voting with Heath to take Britain into the EEC and resigning from the shadow cabinet after Labour conference made an EEC referendum party policy) and the two sides were more or less impossible to synthesize into a compromise platform anymore. One side deeply believed that Labour was unpopular because it compromised on the left-wing positions it got elected on, the other believed that even those positions were a liability that explained why Labour rarely won big and that Labour conference passing resolutions to nationalise all the banks or whatever while the government's negotiating with the IMF isn't particularly helpful. then there was stuff like deselection. if your local Labour party is probably going to deselect you as the candidate anyway, why not quit and join the SDP? >>663225 tbh it's doubtful Labour would've won 1983 even without the SDP. The most viable way to have done it would've been to have a right-wing Labour party lead by Dennis Healey and to win based on his appeal to the public, but that would've been fraught with the fact the party membership would've probably started lynching their local candidates out of frustration and the SDP people might still have left anyway since they were sick and tired of the Labour party and didn't particularly appreciate Healey's arrogance. (In the 1980 leadership election he told the right of the party that they had to vote for him because they had "nowhere else to go". Later, an SDP defector narrowly avoided telegramming him that he had "found somewhere else to go") The second most viable way would've been to have made the much underappreciated Peter Shore ("Between Harold Wilson and Tony Blair, Peter Shore was the only possible Labour Party leader of whom a Conservative leader had cause to walk in fear.") the candidate of the left rather than Michael Foot, which is probably the only timeline where something resembling postwar social democracy actually managed to continue. on an entirely unrelated note i have always loved this poster and it reinforces my vague impression that the Liberals were possibly the more left-wing of the parties in the alliance.
Lol Sandy Hale is such a fucking retarded cuck. What was is that triggered you this morning Sandy? I see you’re having a nice social media autistic sperg this morning. Somebody hurt you last night? Maybe you realised you haven’t organised so much as a march (unless stand up to racism nonce trots have one so you can tag along) in your entire life yet claim some kind of advanced theory allowing you to shit on everything. What a dumb motherfucker
>>663244 i'm sandy hale btw
>>663244 Watch out borjees he's gonna have a march
>>663250 i am going on a march coz i want britain to be back social democratic
>>663250 Ooooo I’m having a red blooooooc oooooh I’m blooooocing... oh it’s actually like 10 extremely skinny gimps with a weird sense of superiority for doing fuck all oooooh
>>663262 Ooooooh after the march maybe I’ll go on twitter and Facebook and make mean comments about people oooooh ooooooh I’m moooooocking oooooooooh this is real organising ooooooog I’m moooocking
beware the ideas of march
>>663267 is this that facebook page that anon was talking about like a month ago
>>663270 The Facebook page is actually okay, it’s just the main retard behind it is basically the main character in the worst revenge movie ever, where somebody has a toxic personality so gets kicked of everything and therefore tries to harass the left from the inside
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>>663267 >being a retard on twitter and facebook isn't organising >but going on your monthly city hike with a banner is
>>663283 Fuck you on about, you have no idea who I am, lmao I suppose you are a CPB/YCL child who has been groomed by mr Hale. You can get out child the abuse doesn’t have to continue it’s not your fault
>>663291 Kek this is a good bit
oh also Laura Briggs is maybe the most cringe worthily stuck up cunt in Britain for somebody whose entire personality is based around pathological hate fetish of trans people
>>663436 absolute mess of a face as well, fat as fuck. She could use some fat acceptance in her life. Hilarious for somebody who takes so many selfies of their humming face with far too much make up to be calling others narcissists all the time
waiting for keir starmer to say terf things so that i can have an excuse to turn against him rather than just modelling him as an empty void into which pol pot quotes can be poured
>>663483 Will you vote Keir if he says trans rights?
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>>663483 Pathetic
okay lets not have a trans conversation, this thread is for talking about how much of a stupid fuck Sandy Hale and his gang of groomed children are. A trans conversation is just what he wants to turn everything into
>>663490 probably not >>663493 When I die, my only wish is that Britain remain Britain and belong to the EU. It is over for social democracy, and I want to stress that. - Keir Starmer.
its funny because I know for a fact that he posts here. He wrote his first essay in defence of /b/. Could you nonce any harder than that? So he definitely sees this, but does not respond. Just seethes. What a fucking bitch
>>663506 was his essay here or on facebook it sounds cringe
>>663502 Keir is based for killing off social fascism.
>>663491 Their flag is the Union Flag, i.e shilling socdem parties
>>663507 no m8 this was literally a school essay. How fucking cringe
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>>663508 yes (i bet you thought this gimmick was dead, huh? you didn't bet on me making like 40 of these earlier like some kind of severely unhealthy blue peter)
>>663506 Which class would you write that in?
>>663498 >>663506 I think you are Sandy Hale trying to meme him into being the next rug merchant
sandy hale haha
>>663179 Were the sheep carnivorous zombie sheep?
>>663522 I've never seen mention of sandy hale until now
>>663522 hes a toxic cunt who is damaging to the left but for reasons of my own position in trade unions I don't want to say it publicly so here i am
I understand the complaints against Novara Media. But is there an equivalent of them that is more left-wing with a general focus on UK politics?
>>663534 Morning Star
>>663534 >>663539 What you lads think of the Tribune? Seems alright from what I've read of it.
>>663539 >>663540 Should say sorry, I'm referring to video news. An equivalent of Tysky Sour or whatever
>>663534 Unfortunately not, but why would you want to watch Novara's opinion on anything.
>>663548 mother of all talk shows
>>663548 I can't think of any good ones, for some reason that youtube genre has eluded the uk
>>663552 the only MOATS worth caring about in this country are the fishing mates of Gazza
>>663557 America just has a huge population compared to the UK and it shows on youtube.
>>663550 Let's me hear about some of the news with a more left-wing perspective than you typically get on TV, and sometimes interviews with Labour figures, as I make my dinner. I guess it also keeps me up to date with what the 'Twitter left' is saying Though it should be obvious from my post that I'd like an alternarive to Novara because they're not cutting it.
>>663552 Isn't this cancelled?
>remember a channel i saw years ago after this conversation >go look for it to show the lads >he deleted his accounts and all that remains is a bitchute mirror and a morningstar article ripperoni https://morningstaronline.co.uk/-lets-chat-about-the-media-1
>>663539 their content is generally good but also they allow some absolute pish to be posted because its in line with their party line but the actual article is awful
>>663240 There's a cruel irony that the Liberals were to the left of the Soft Left, and the SDP were to the left of the Blairite Right.
tbh the biggest problem of british left media is that they never created something for normies. Someone that reads Tribune or MS or Jacobin or watches Novara are already leftwing.
>>663612 Explain how you would solve this problem since it sounds like the start of circular reasoning.
>>663531 Nobody here knows who the fuck he is, please shut up about it


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