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What can be learned. Anonymous 06/25/2020 (Thu) 16:47:03 No. 640942
So it’s pretty obvious that CHAZ has failed. This thread is took look at why it failed and learn what can be done better next time.
Nah fuck off. The sooner this gets forgotten the better
>>640942 Well for one thing it shows the dangers of spontaneity without proper organization. I would also say it shows the dangers of over-radicalization. The protests were encouraging because they represented a sudden upswing in mobilization and militancy for the average prole, which in turn created an increased receptiveness to socialist ideas. However this still has limits, and any group which exceeds those limits too much in terms of demands, rhetoric, tactics, etc is bound to alienate itself.
>>640948 >ignoring history t retard
decentralization is a fucking joke
Don't even bother next time.
Nothing will be learned. We already knew from past experience that horizontalism is not a valid organizing principle, and that squatopia's are not meaningful political projects. We also already knew that most self proclaimed leftists will jizz their pants over any old outburst of "energy" regardless of its actual (class) character. Hence you'll reliably get mongoloids getting behind things like the Syrian insurgency, the Hongcuck protests, etc. The only lesson, same is it ever was, is that we should go back to our armchairs.
>>640942 CHAZ is just an example of red painted liberals buying their own hype. First of all CHAZ was never seized from the city. So right off the bat CHAZ boosters were lying about their history. Second they put a tranny in charge, if that doesn't scream that they are not taking it seriously I don't know what does. Thrid, it proves how staggeringly undisciplined most people on the left are. Stuff like the community garden failing just played into every stereotype the right has of the left. I hope this failure causes socialists to ignore online leftists on Twitter and even places like bunkerchan in the future. That they prevent social media addicted narcissists that compose of the left online, from getting anywhere near a seat of power. <TL;DR Chaz was Feelz>Realz and it shows how dysfunctional the online left is.
Not all projects are worth supporting. Discernment is actually a good thing and activism without thought can be really counterproductive.
or you know what, maybe there is one lesson that wasn't quite so obvious: everything can be recuperated, politically speaking. every brand of radicalism can be incorporated into the system, resulting in democratic "socialists" telling to voot bloo no matter whoo and woke corporations the only exception funnily enough to this so far seem to be what the liberals (and cryptoliberals calling themselves democratic or libertarian socialists) call authoritarian socialism. tankies have yet to become a meaningful political force in the industrialized west, but at the least they never have been recuperated as everything else has been (though maybe the former is the cause of the latter)
>>640942 should've been used in forming tenant unions and unions for the dispossessed. i wasn't there, but as far as i can tell, it was just a radlib block party. more info about the extent of organizing efforts there would be helpful.
That communism in the concrete is a fucking joke
>>641021 > but at the least they never have been recuperated as everything else has bee Google kke, pcf,pce
>>640942 Anarchist always fail, ALWAYS
>>640942 Anarchists are losers.
>>640942 >Over decentralization is bad. >lack of defined goals will lead to stagnation of the project. >Unwillingness to de-platform liberal roaders will derail to project. >Lack of media team to control the narrative leading to a lot malicious actors pushing falsehoods.
>>641034 >>641035 They literally organized according to Woke Twitter-Thought My fucking sides 🤣🤣🤣 Worst part is the American left will never accept what a worthless fucking joke these people are
>>640998 you're the one that's too online, a tranny was never put in charge, stop believing fake screenshots you see on leftypol, retard
The answer is stop being a retarded anarchist.
>>641040 Unironically they also fucked themselves with retarded woke idpol They had some idiot teen running social media Elected a random twitter tranny for president who proceeded to threaten suicide on social media Had stupid woke conferences about needing 50% LGBT representation (?) and of course the fucking failed garden. Apparently two people got gunned down too.
>chaz was bad cause muh trannies >chaz was bad cause muh anarchists Cringe Autonomous areas are retarded , especially when your movement doesnt dominate either the local minds or the political circus
>>641060 Autonomous Areas are concepts made by Anarchists, thus retarded.
>>641048 never happened. stop being a retard who believes everything they see in a twitter screenshot
>>641066 This thing would not have been better if it was organized by twitter tankies, just saying.
That we have some real shitty jannies
>>641073 Twitter Tankies are not retarded enough to make autonomous zones.
>>641073 Tankies wouldn’t have organized crap like this
>>641034 >>641035 It's not even archaism that is the problem, it american anarchists being absolute brainlet who have not read a book on the topic and relay on radlib yt and twitter for their education. The ypg and ezln don't have these problems cause they did their homework.
>>641082 The YPG and EZLN are not Ancom.
>>641087 neither was chaz
>>641081 Twitter tankies would have organized this and they would have put stickers with "Stalin says trans rights"all over the place.
>>641081 nah tankies whouldnt even protesr >>641082 those movements had local support cause they werent just like a city block
>>641089 Chaz was half librul half anarchist. So, 100% the same people.
>>640942 How exactly did it fail? Capitol Hill is inhabited in great part by students, well paid software engineers and office workers. As a protest spot, it wasn't chosen because an autonomous zone would be good there. I can't help but think that this so called failure is due to measuring this event in the context of some super radicalized proletariat. They are not, they are mostly liberals, and it should be judged as that. It's in a city with one of the highest homeless per capita in the US. The outskirts are plagued by literal KKK, and similar types. How is this not liberals slowly figuring autonomous zones out? Just weeks ago they were just finding out for the first time in their lives that ALL cops are bastards. Weeks later they set up an autonomous zone in a high income neihborhood. Nigga, you wanted full insurrection from liberals? I don't know in what utopia everyone is living in. We organized a protest against police brutality and 50 people showed up. If liberals would set up an autonomous zone in the city center, I would shit my pants and cry in joy. Maybe I just live in a conservative shithole.... count your blessings anons. That said, I do agree on investigating what could have happened better. >>640955 >>641021 >>641040 Good and interesting. Where were all the anarchists and socialists? This was the perfect opportunity to set up a mini government and it was completly subverted. How is it possible that Raz was the most based voice there? There were also real suspicious happenings with the "official Chaz" BLM de-escalation ("the mayor said go home") which coincided with the "official chaz" counter protest ("let's abandon chaz for a night and go to the space needle to counter protest BLM"). This is why you need an ML org already organized to just take over instantly and coordinate effectively. Fuck glorifying proles as natural leaders who speak for the people. This shit needs to be strategic, well thought out, well planned. Some randos are not going to do it better than a small organization that has democratic principles at it's core and already has experience organizing.
>>641090 I don't think you know what tankies are.
>>641095 I do, but I believe you haven't met the MLs on Twitter yet.
>CHAZ has failed Failed at what? It had no goal or purpose in the first place.
>>640993 >the Hongcuck protests, etc. Tankie! >The only lesson, same is it ever was, is that we should go back to our armchairs. You go first. >>640998 >Second they put a tranny in charge, if that doesn't scream that they are not taking it seriously I don't know what does. Or, trannyn claimed to be in charge. No one called it out. >Thrid, it proves how staggeringly undisciplined most people on the left are. Stuff like the community garden failing just played into every stereotype the right has of the left. I think it was kinda cute, save the racial separation thing. And would've been better with proper garden boxes or even buckets.
>>641100 Strasserist Femboys who also think the DPRK is le based nazbol even though they don't know what nazbol even is doesn't mean strasserism supports trans rights. Twitter """"ML's"""" have never ever attended an ML rally or leafleting or even a fucking meeting in their lives.
>>641108 the one thing worse than internet mls is ml political orgs -Member of one
>>641117 Fuck off. I wouldn't be surprised if the tranny ml twitter accounts were actually psy-ops operatives on a payroll. They deserve to be punched in the face just as much as any Fascist.
>>640942 did we really believe it would turn out any other way? please say sike
>>641128 The /dead/ retards did because their perception of anti-capitalism is "steal shit haha"
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1276199680938921985 Chop chop chop anarkids! Time to get moving!
>>640942 1)Anarchism is mostly a joke, and Western Anarchism is mostly its parody 2) Decentralization never works, we need strong organization 3)Taking control of short plots of land is actually counterproductive to our cause, either from the operational standpoint (you're easily located and aggregated) or the optics one 4) Radlibs in all shape and forms must be kicked out of our politics, they are actively dangerous, i'd say on par with glowies (may be ones as well)
>>641148 I'm glad he at least didn't mention gommies, I don't want to be associated.
The proletariat isn't ready. That's all. Anything they do now will be liberal in nature, it will take them time to realize that isn't the answer. Let the proletariat act however, it will find its voice soon enough.
>>641127 Nah political parties actually cuck the proles more
>>640955 >>640942 it shows the problem of being a larping bourgeoisie anarchist retard. Solution is DONT BE A FUCKING RETARD!
Yall think RAZ is going to jail? They got bobby schmurda and 6ix9ine for less If he does, hopefully he becomes RAZHID
>>641180 NABPP needs its more members outside of prison, not inside.
>>641117 >>641173 ML org members on twitter are cancer. The strasserist anime pic ""ML""s on twitter are kinda insane tbh. Twitter is terrible all around. I give a full pass to any real femboys on twitter though :3 >>641178 Organize, and organize well. Communication, well defined roles, dynamism, democracy, democratic centralism, and just putting in the necessary work. Hopefully things get rolling before you burn out.
>>640998 >community garden failing How? How do you fuck up a community garden? Flips the soil, space the plants, feed the plants water the plants The hardest part is flipping the soil.
>>641201 They even didnt flip the soil lmao. But even then it may have not been successfull, considering one thing is to plant some random vegetation and other is to plant proper veggies requiring care, pesticides etc..
I've warned you about losing proletarian character bro, I told you dawg. This is a prime example of what happens when you have liberals with red (or in this case black) paint in your revolutionary movement. Bunch of collage kids tried to LARP as Makhno and ended up setting up a failed hippie commune. It reminds me of westerners doing "revolutionary tourism" by going to YPG controlled areas in Syria, taking few pictures with flags in uniform with AKs and then act like they were just like the Republican volunteers in Spain. Even here they still attack Marxists (at this point nearly any Marxist is a tankie) or proper anarchists because they called them out as LARPers from day one. Liberal brain worms' tendrils have penetrated so deep into western mind that they cannot even properly LARP.
Hobo poster spotted in the riot thread. Most likely angrily typing a wall of text to defend chaz’s honor right now
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>>640942 The next time a whole port city must be seized. We need sleeper party leadership in the city govt. Under friendly leadership the workers' and dispossesseds' unions can more easily capture industry and stake control with an organized people's militia,suppressing police response. The homeless and under housed must be housed and the capable among their ranks must be armed. Special consideration needs to be taken to avoid major disruptions in goods transportation networks. The revolution will not be possible until the third world rises up enough to drive first world conditions down. Prematurely disrupting commodity distribution on the national level would be an adventurist mistake that'd drive the masses away. The port must be used to covertly export as much revolutionary aid to the third world as possible, to hasten the conditions for first world success. The city govt. can be used to engage in anti-imperial lawfare at previously unseen scale.
>>641106 so why were anarchists hyping it up to be the spark of a revolution?
God I wish I had archived all the liberals soyfacing (I fucking hate that word but still it was that) when CHAZ was first established. Autonomous zones will spread everywhere bros just trust me, haha tankies owned was everywhere. No revolution started in a collage campus.
Its CHOP and its strange to frame it in this way like it had a goal beyond organized protesting. It was a movement coming forth from the conditions of capitalism and the agitation of leftists. It could have lasted longer if there was a greater organization that could have defended against the police but that's the failure of leftists(not sure why anyone here is gleeful, if you're a leftist you've failed by lack of trying just as much if not worse then the people on the ground who tried) and the conditions not being right. One victory is the constant surveillance ensured we can dispel with the old /pol/ myth about how women and minorities ruined occupy for white people. It's clear that the divide between liberals and radicals is not a racial one because a lot of the people trying to radicalize the liberals there were black or women. The proles still have to reach consciousness but chop is just one sign that things are heading in a positive direction. >>641226 Brace Belden has successfully organized workplaces on returning from rojava, strange example to bring up.
>>640942 >What can be learned Nothing >why it failed what did you expect from spooked lumpenproles and spooked boujie anarcho-radlibs? >what can be done better next time Eh how about not do it? Instead work towards building actual class based solidarity and a movement for creating an actual socialist state in the US
>what can be learned Idk some people hate this but why not focus on class politics instead of upholding the """radical""" twitter leftist thought >why it failed Why wouldn't it? It was a hippie commune LARPing as Makhnovia with liberals without any ideas at charge.
>>641286 >(not sure why anyone here is gleeful, if you're a leftist you've failed by lack of trying just as much if not worse then the people on the ground who tried) These people just want to excuse their non-activism. I agree with all of your post.
>>641454 Not all activism is good activism.
>>641406 >what did you expect from spooked lumpenproles Raz and his crew exceeded my expectations tbqh
FRIENDLY REMINDER THAT LITERAL UNARMED FARMERS IN BOLIVIA COULD RUN A NO POLICE ZONE LONGER THAN CHAZ
>>641469 I don't think anyone is surprised by the fact that Bolivian farmers are sturdier than American radlibs.
>>641469 if the police in the USA were at the bolivian level, I could take the state on my own.
>>641462 >2 week larp fest replete with hippy apartheid vegetable patch,general disorder and chaos I suspect those expectations were low to begin with
The lesson is that they should've just burned the precinct down when the cops left. The occupation only made the higher ups realize there wasn't going to be a mass riot and thus no need to give into any actual demands. I'm not sure if having the protestors be composed of MLs would've done anything because the press coverage of CHAZ also revealed how spooked conservative Americans are by the state of things. Trying to learn a lesson for leftists is irrelevant when much of the reaction against CHAZ is a sign of the US balkanizing more than anything.
>>640942 >What can be learned. <Purging the ranks now and then is a good thing actually. <Outright banning anyone who is PMC, considers themselves to be a liberal and has not read any leftist (Marxist) theory <Don't talk to the media, don't even allow them to come in. <The 'people' education and library should be flooded with leftist theory only, none of those radlib disease books I saw some time ago. <Young white anarchists coming in just to destroy the pavement and windows, should be shot on sight. <any anti-communist activity, or those who are "antifa" but also "anti-communist" will be judged by the court of the people and either get the wall or will be kicked out. <Anarchists should be considered as opportunists at all time, especially those who are not well-versed in anarchist theory. It is easier for a FED to take cover as an anarchist, then as a Marxist.
>>640942 The ultimate reason it failed was it was cringe.
>>641477 Both police departments are trained by the same drill though. The usual Israeli kill anyone with even a little opposition drill.
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decentralization isn't always bad - it's very effective if you lack resources and are facing an overwhelming enemy alongside a local population that may not like you very much problem with chaz is they didn't have any actual consistent organization at all, just people going on their whims and not even having a vague goal to reach for liberals will learn nothing from CHAZ
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>>640982 >why yes, i do love the taste of boot, how could you tell?
>>640942 maybe anarkiddies should just grow up and stop humiliating themselves and the left at large, i think that's a lesson that can be learned
>>641027 >communism >that shit Pick one.
>>641485 >The lesson is that they should've just burned the precinct down when the cops left. I was calling for this back then but the fear was that if they burned down the precinct the police would use it as an excuse to ramp up and retaliate. Seems like they should have went ahead and burnt the precinct down because CHAZ was not worth the bad publicity and the police got their excuse to ramp up anyway. What I want to know is what happened to the cop-adjacent dude who shot a protester in Seattle pre-CHAZ? Did people just forget? Where's the street justice? https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/06/his-brother-works-here-at-this-precinct-police-say-capitol-hill-protest-shooting-suspect-was-fearing-for-his-life/
>>641485 This is smart actually. Only interesting response in this thread.
they where just a neighborhood, they where lost from the beginning, no way they could have survived no matter what they did
>>641107 >Tankie and proud of it socialism by 2050 is more realistic than all anarchist and and libertarian socialist vomit put together
>>641782 dengoid
>>641782 >socialism by 2050 Kill the dengoid shoot the sinophile i swear to god you nerds are the worst
>>641034 real anarchism has never been tried! >>641075 also true. I've been banned only three times since posting on leftypol back under tyranny of old BO yet twice has been by salty radlib jannies here >>641094 >Where were all the anarchists and socialists the real and difficult lesson for all the young and well meaning but ultimately inexperienced guys and galls calling themselves socialists and anarchists, is that the socially acceptable anarchism and socialism they are allowed to practice is just that leftcoms and ML's, there is nothing else that is truly radical out there (and leftcoms don't really do anything anyway so are not really a threat either)
>>641034 bruh they where a bunch of liberals in one neighborhood, they where lost from the beginning no matter who would be in charge
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>>641787 >>641792 you're just jealous that dengoids actually have something tangible to point to. China is accumulating MOP, it is challenging the dominance of the US, they teach Marxism at Party schools meanwhile all the US "left" does is embarrass themselves, existing more or less in service and at the mercy of the dem-rep duopoly being a dengist takes a leap of faith, being a US leftist takes a lobotomy
The point should have been to inspire similar acts, but no one wanted to copy a bunch of dorks.
>>641812 The problem with dengoids are that they are usually US leftists who are fetishizing a political situation in a country they know nothing about. The Left in the US is in a sorry state, but it is not made better by people simping for a foreign entity who isn't even socialist yet.
>>641792 Ameriburger anarchists SEETHING at a successful socialist state after their UNCONTESTED, UNCONDITIONAL, UNQUESTIONABLE FAILURE in Seattle. Sad!
>>641793 >not doing anything is radical wew. The fact that CHAZ was not covered by communist propaganda shows that socialist organizers failed. CHAZ wasn't the one that failed.
>>641782 Oh shit, dengoids are fucking jokes
>>641842 >The Left in the US is in a sorry state, but it is not made better by people simping for a foreign entity who isn't even socialist yet. Yes and no. to the degree that people push back against the anti-China (cold) war fever being ginned up by the right, the left, and the libertarian left (in the form of yoghurt and hongcuck apologia), simping for china is one of the few productive things out there for the US left to do
>>641862 CHAZ did not fail because there was nothing for it to succeed at, it was always going to be stillborn if you were hoping for something bigger you don't build socialism out of squatopias
Chaz failed because it never set out to do anything. It wasn't really organized and just spontaneously came to be. The main take away are 1) theres a growing militancy in the american population 2) the police state is much weaker than thought if they got BTFOed from their own station for 2 weeks by an unorganized mass of rad libs 3) given fact 2 holding territory is possible. I question the strategical use of this at the moment. 4)leadership is needed and people are dying for it given the PSL gaining decent sized rallies. 5) no one is going to remember how "cringe" chaz was outside of armchairs and poltards. What will be remember is for 2 weeks the police were pushed out of 6 blocks of territory. Which fell apart not because the police breaking it up but just people lost the plot and went home. Due to a lack of leadership and goals. It didn't violently implode, it wasnt destroyed by the police. It just died down quietly and the cops quietly snuck back in.
>>641912 you're the only conscious communist here, stirnfag go out and cum on a tree
>>641912 >But yes, C.H.A.Z. has failed; it was always going to, for it was never intended to be permanent, and all the better that it did! To fail by capitalism's terms is precisely what communism means! Those who succeed in capitalism are called capitalists; the whole point is to end capitalism, not to succeed as part of it according to its own logics. That reveals why C.H.A.Z. failed: precisely because it was communist, not because it was not. Maximum cope. The Bolsheviks didn’t struggle to build dual power in their own country at all.
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>>641044 >I can't help but think that this so called failure is due to measuring this event in the context of some super radicalized proletariat. They are not, they are mostly liberals, and it should be judged as that. It's in a city with one of the highest homeless per capita in the US. The outskirts are plagued by literal KKK, and similar types. This, I think it's a coping mechanism amoung leftist middle class white workers that jump on this kind of projects that are doomed to fail. The last one being Bernie's 2020 run. The online left is 100% LARPers that are ingeniously taking up the mantel of socialism. It's clear as day to anyone with even a modicum of experience or theory. These are the type of people that moo on and on about trans rights, while wearing shirts made by children, sleep in homes and eat veggies build and picked by undocumented immigrants. These people simply want the social cache that comes with being red in this time. They are no different than the hippies of the 1960's and their legacy will be the same. There plenty of practical things these so called "socialist" could do to help fellow workers, but those things wouldn't get them retweets on Twitter, or views on Tik Tok so they are neglected. I include the anons on this board in this as well BTW. Anyway, the failure of CHAZ is the culmination of this. As Sakai frames them they are Settlers, not prolitriats. Oh and BTw for all the people crediting the riots that made CHAZ possible, all those "white" people were in fact Hispanic. You know how I know? Because that's who lives in the inner city, white workers fled to the suburbs, it even has a name "white flight". Unless white people commuted to the riots, what you saw is mostly Hispanics. With whites only opportunistically joining later when it was clear the police were on their heels and the risk to rioters was greatly reduced.
>>641885 Yeah, I absolutely think that every single American should critically support China and defend it from propaganda and slander. But you don't have to be simping to that.
>>641900 those six blocks were never taken, there never was a challenge to the police or any effort by the police to push back. anyone with an internet connection who was alive for the Syrian civil war knows what it really looks like to take and hold six city blocks against a government this shit was just an authorized release vale. the Seattle authorized zone is what it really was
>>641925 I don't know, if I don't go simp mode I usually strangle my own arguments with nuance.
>>641021 based. soviet/tankie aesthetic with adapted praxis that's not meant for a century ago, but with the same non-horizontal, realpolitik spirit, could be the new thing we need. although in usa rethoric will be very difficult because of demonization of communism in general and stable liberal establishment and values
>>641934 Then you're doing good, comrade.
>>641021 >tankies have yet to become a meaningful political force in the industrialized west, but at the least they never have been recuperated as everything else has been (though maybe the former is the cause of the latter) they have been recuperated by the movie-villain version of themselves in American ideology.
>>641782 Based
>>641926 Even if we go with that narrative. The fact the police had to use that tactic over brute force like they normally do. Shows the police state is much weaker than thought. The police were having private shit fits about kneeling and people quit over it. What you think was going on at the Safeway they were hiding out in while their station had to be abandoned for over 2 weeks.
>>641094 incredibly based, although MLs today, as some anons pointed out, are just tankie larpers, maybe more politically realistic in mind but just as useless as radlibs and anarchists in praxis, since in their pride and inexperience they would not even step outside the door for this. Adopting ML presentation would be counterproductive, there is much prejudice against it in leftists and liberals today, a manouver like this will probably be pictured as authoritarianism (a word which they use contemptuously). it would be far better to do the same thing, but just as a group of trusted intellectual and experienced individuals also accepting any based person, not as the party vanguard.
>>641983 police violence is more ephemeral to the functioning of capitalism than you think, and its reduction does not fundamentally change anything. rest of the western world manages to have capitalism just fine without psycho police US is just going to end up repeating the farce of the late 60's at this rate - people protest racist police, police do a stealth work reduction / are subjected to austerity, murder rate explodes, police comes back (tho it will be McPolice this time around ofc). all the while the system continues to go brrrrr street unrest itself is never a vehicle for political power; at most it creates conditions that an organized group can hijack (recent example, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt - for all the good it did them). glorification of chaos when there is no deep rooted and well organized cadre/militia at the ready so to speak, is simply cheering on a slide into ancap dystopia
>>641149 sadly, the human capital of the so called left today is 90% radlibs if not more
>>642011 >rest of the western world manages to have capitalism just fine without psycho police Not having psycho police may not be revolutionary but it is a working class struggle Communists should lead it with rigorous theory that is easily understood by the burger working class so they can make that theory their own
>>642011 No where did I say or imply I was glorifying chaos or chaz. I suspect you didn't even read fully my orginal post or any of the other points I made.
>>641908 7 paragraphs of exuses 4 failure lOl
>>642033 oh my did I not read your previous work on an ANONYMOUS board? good heavens
>>641782 Based. Time for China to take over and purge the anarkiddies.
>>642120 you're truly the worst poster on this board
>>642120 why shouls people that do not know about organization be able to partake in it? The management of any community should be left in the hands of those who know about what is being managed and how to do it properly, and no one else. Political organization is not about "representation", that is a liberal bullshittery that has its origin in burgeoise rethoric, some level of centralization is desirable and necessary.
>>642120 Make a tripcode, please.
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>>642056 >I cant read! You mad bro? This is why a lot of people on leftypol dont take the anti-Chaz people seriously. You're just a reflexive contrarian downer.
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>>642120 >I sympathise with this, though I would warn against advocating organisation, which will always ensure the real movement dies. >O.K. take, though "M"Ls being involved is never, ever, ever a good idea. History proves as much. Just how much of the situationist cannon have you actually read lad, because it looks like you read of their missives written in the heat of 1969 and run wild with it, which is admirable but mistaken >>still pushing the apartheid patch hoax >>>/pol/ The debunking of this which is the video of the white guy hammering away at cardboard, I presume to work on it while ignoring another white guy with a torn black shirt who staggers around as if he's drunk while twirling some kind of baton or stick and wrecking it makes the reverse apartheid that this picture implies appear better in comparison If they were going to play woke white man's burden, chaz could have at least dignified it with the removal of the collapsing white wierdo who was wrecking it Especially since in the video this sign is clearly visible
Well the main issue literally was that the extent of their activity in the “Autonomous zone” was to basically put up the barricades and do some basic community organising shit (Handing out food / communal activities etc) and so on instead of thinking about it in political terms or the near or long term future The literal immediate reason is because some random black humvee started showing up and shooting at people and driving off and the police were like teehee I guess you need us after all xD I feel like everyone in this thread gives these people way to much shit. Like at least they left their fucking house and attempted something
>>642120 the point of organizing is to do it in the best possible way, its not about the most faithful to what the majority think, its about what is in the best interests of the group in itself, the majority will be wrong about something far more often than those who are experts on that same topic. In other words, the demos can and will be wrong. in every single one of those so called horizontal organizations the important decisions are always made by the same group of people, with some unexperienced and useless remark from others here and there. Since a spontaneous technocracy will rise eventually in any so called horizontal org., it's much better to be effective and let a central body of people that are known to be experts in management, political philosophy/science, economics,logistics to take charge, with commissions with full control of specific things parallel to them who bring representatives to this central committee, for example, a defense commission, a supply and logistic commision, a PR commision, a manual labor commission, a pacificacion and community problems commissin (never forget the affective elements, they are often times what lead an org to disaster) etc. with a regular coordination gathering, and only composed of experts in the particular matter
>>642191 >with a regular coordination gathering, and only composed of experts in the particular matter Being open to a civilian audience with a question and answer session at the end if time patience and circumstances allow would be wise if practical
Nothing is going to fundamentally change if you don't actively get rid of capitalism and the cops, one way or another.
>>642204 This is the truth.
>>642203 yes, they could aslo act as gathering ground for talented or already mature possible members of these commissions. Again we cant downplay the affective and rethtorical aspects.
>>642205 y r u such a fag
>>642184 This but they also needed to work on serious horizontal organizing. There is a difference between "unorganized" and "horizontally organized" and a large portion of american anarchists in particular go for "unorganized". It was very frustrating attending protests and trying to organize people only to find out that a lot of anarchists will call you out for trying to get anything together, while apparently unaware of the fact that organization is what moves you from spontaneous energy to long term results. Hopefully it'll be evidence for some of the more serious anarchists to use to convince the retarded radlib kiddies that "ensuring maximum freedom" doesn't necessarily mean you just play nice and hope everyone gets along without any kind of rules.
>>642238 >trying to organize people only to find out that a lot of anarchists will call you out for trying to get anything together That must have been frustrating to the extreme My sincerest condolences comrade I do hope they didn't do anything horrid like call you a tankie cryptofascist
>>642158 Because communism is about living and governing by ourselves for ourselves. It is the universalisation of freedom, including the freedom to govern your own affairs and participate in the governance of the society in which you live. What you are endorsing is fundamentally anticommunist because it seeks to alienate governance from the governed and institutionalise this alienated government in a state that technocratically manages the affairs of the governed without their input or consent and against their interests, all based on a fundamentally meritocratic conception "proper" or "right" governance that ultimately recurses its own definition of merit to legitimise the hierarchy thus formed and those who rule it. The fact that you are hostile to democracy -- or rather universal democracy, for there is always a democracy among those given a vote -- only reinforces this point, since those who oppose democracy fundamentally oppose the political structure of communism. >>642168 Why should I? While I sympathise with those who have nothing against me personally but would rather my posts be filtered from their view simply as a matter of convenience, and I appreciate that some (such as you) have even asked me kindly to do so, I question the motives behind this idea. The whole point of me posting here is to disrupt the complacent anticommunism which pervades this board, to destroy this board's ideology, and to do so visibly and vocally in everyone's face so that they must either confront my critiques or be condemned to torment through them. I have no interest in just being filtered away so that the bubbles here remain unpopped; I resist such recuperation, such neutralisation, such devocalisation in the name of... what? Convenience? Diversity of interests? "Peace" and quiet? What possible rationale is there for me to get a tripcode just so that I can be shuttled off to the no-man's land limbo of forgotten filtered posts? The original point of tripcodes in chans was to provide a verifiable signature for certain posters so that they cannot be impersonated or mistaken by others. Such "tripfagging" was generally considered obnoxious and hostile to the anonymity of the culture because it was often undue and gave others the impression that they just wanted to receive attention and credit for their posts through their tripcodes. That is not a problem for me because no one here can do what I do, no one here can pull off what I have, no one here can mimic my style or lengthen their posts to match mine through it. I am already hated and despised and mistaken for seeking attention without one. I am already unique, utterly unique, and I need no name to identify me. That is why even when some anons have tried to impersonate me, few mistook it as me and the best they could do to emulate my uniqueness is to simply quote me verbatim. The latter alone is proof of my point. So what, then, is the use of a tripcode that serves my interests -- which is utterly invested in our interests -- and does not simply provide a simple means whereby I can be erased? Why ask me to tripfag but not everyone else? I value my anonymity. I have nothing against you, and wish no ill on those who simply are not here to be challenged and critiqued, but for them I only suggest that they ignore me and scroll past my posts. If those few seconds of scrolling is such torment, then perhaps it is time better spent trying to vanquish me altogether. That is done not with harassment and abuse and gradeschool bullying; that is done by engaging my critiques directly and persuading me of the error in my ways. In the end, that is all I really want: to be proven wrong. You have no idea how dismally I see this world, and how much better it might look if I could believe that I am totally wrong and that all these leftists are actually contributing toward a global communism to come. I came to the critiques and conclusions I now have precisely because I always sought to prove myself wrong, to seek out the critiques and criticisms of the values and positions I held dear. What remains is what you see: someone who followed that path so far left that they fell off the map and into the abyss, so far removed from the conventional politics of this bourgeois society (of which leftists partly compose) that what I say is not even unthinkable, it is altogether incomphrensible. In so many words, I am where I am not because I believe I am right, but because I took Marx at his word that communism is that which "abolishes the present state of things" and that we must therefore engage in the "ruthless criticism of all that exists"; what is left is an inability to see where I am wrong any longer. This is really off-topic, but I keep seeing off-topic requests for me to use a tripcode and I want to put this to rest. Having said my piece, I'll try to refrain entertaining this tangent any further.
>>642258 >a state that technocratically manages the affairs of the governed without their input or consent and against their interests The final term in this claim intuitively seems correct but does not necessarily follow from the prior
Any leftist movement needs to be organized and it needs clearly defined leaders. CHAZ/CHOP did not have this so it collapsed. Also IDPOL causes movements to self destruct as they turn against each other , without unity the left is weak, with unity it the left is unbeatable, and IDPOL is a poison pill that kills unity. The revolution will only succeed when it has unity, when it is everybody's revolution.
>>642282 >it needs clearly defined leaders. I'm of course very sympathetic to this notion, but I have at least a vague suspicion clearly defined doctrines and structures might suffice maybe possibly if you're lucky
That we have another epic addition to the trilogy of massive shitshows that went exponentially wrong as time passed: >DashCon >Fyre Festival >CHAZ
>>642269 Yes, in principle the needs and wants of everyone can be satisfied within just about any political form, including even fucking fascism. And this can be done with the input and consent of the governed, even when they have absolutely zero control over the government and their input is only insofar as the state permits it. That only works when we suspend disbelief and ignore the realities that these forms take, all while conflating interests (such as freedom) with wants and needs (such as housing and food). In reality, technocracies invariably produce and reproduce conditions which privilege the technocrats and legitimate their roles because the interests -- indeed even the wants and needs -- of the masses are optional for the functioning of a technocratic society whereas the reproduction of the technocracy is essential to its continued survival. This is fundamentally true with any hierarchical society, which is why hierarchy invariably reproduces itself even with mass discontent; and true with any organisation therein or thereof, which is why organisation also invariably reproduces itself even with mass discontent. Contending that we ought to allow hierarchies or states or technocratic managerial approaches therefrom any place in the real movement is not only an oxymoronic abrogation of that movement but also the most effective method of recuperating it. We can, in principle, achieve all the post-scarcity abundance and material satisfaction for all that communism seeks to bring in a literal fascist state so long as the fascists play nice and conduct it in a remotely hospitable way because it does not necessarily follow that pure fascist ideologues cannot in any possible world or theoretical imaginary generate such conditions. But they won't. Just like hierarchs and state-capitalist technocrats will never generate communism.
>>642306 >In reality, technocracies invariably produce and reproduce conditions which privilege the technocrats and legitimate their roles because the interests -- indeed even the wants and needs -- of the masses are optional for the functioning of a technocratic society whereas the reproduction of the technocracy is essential to its continued survival. https://allpoetry.com/All-Watched-Over-By-Machines-Of-Loving-Grace And if said controlling is an inhuman machine then what? keep in mind before you deny the possibility that we already exist in such a society where the machine is capitalism Nota bene that this disproves your claim that "the needs and wants of everyone can be satisfied within just about any political form" precisely because it is impossible under capitalism
>>641166 >Let the proletariat act however, it will find its voice soon enough. >175 years of saying this
>>642258 >>642258 i do not know what you mean by freedom, freedom is probably the worst political motivation of them all, since it can mean mutually exclusive things at the same time. Metaphysical freedom, in the sense of freedom from causation and free to act uncaused is, as you should know, non existent. Freedom to do whatever is your will to do is always severely limited, and always will be. Today restrictons on this kind of freedom made by "unlegitimate hierarchies" are necessary to harmonize the conflicting interests that are a result of class society in this zero sum game of resources. It is for this reason that what we should strive for is the elimination of conflicting interests, which is in itself doubtfully possble, instead of your childish desire of freedom, undistinguishable from the immature teenager who resents his parents. The solution to the problem as seen from your perspective is fleeing the system, since the masses will have to be forced to accept their freedom, a-la robespierre, which i suppose you are against by the definition of what freedom means to you, unless you believe that ends justify the means or that everyone will be convinced in the end of the tale, and live happily everafter. The next conception of freedom is not necessarily egalitarian, as it disregards will in favour of the realization of the best possible self (by self i mean any entity, not necessarily a human, a collective or community for example). Immagine a person going to a very important meeting (not necessarily business or porky stuff, just important to him as a person). He is then presented to a crossroad, in which he can either choose to fulfill his interest and go to the left, in the direction of the meeing, or go right, where he can buy tobacco to take to the ride, but which will make him arrive late. He is free if he chooses the road on the right in the sense that nothing is there to prevent him to act that way, but also unfree because he is not partaking in the best possible scenario, that in which he overcomes his adiction and procedes to arrive on time in this very important meeting. In this sense, a "free" decision is not always a free decision, and not the best one for sure. Your problem is that you see society as reduced to individuals, in that way, a society of technocratic character would not be free, since every individual would need to be able to at least choose to partake in governance at any moment, even without knowledge on governing. In reality, communities are organic entities composed of humans, books, ideas, tools... which are united by relations of productions, aesthetic and affective relations, relations of utility and etc to form "bodies". In this sense, for a "body" to be free, it only requires to act in accordance to the best way possible, fulfill its potential, in which case, it would need to manage itself with its "head". So when you say universalization of freedom, you unknowingly mean freedom for the atomized individual, which is in itself a false idea of what a human really is, so a best place to put the value of freedom upon would be the community as a whole, which does not necessarily requires the imput of each and every individual or its possibility, only for it to act as one and in the best possible way. Regarding the value of democracy, democracy is itself a relative term. The rule of the people, doesnt really need the people to govern themselves, only to be governed "in accordance" to what your particular notion of "the people" is. You assume that the people SHOUlD be able to govern themselves, unalienated, and that this is an objective "right" or in their interest. However, "the people" can be argued to be whatever you want, if there's, and if not, if you can create (what essentialy would be robespierre's manouver), such a "demos" to satisfy your definition, whatever it may be. in this sense, a fascist utopia, if fully realized, would be democratic, as the government would have succsessfuly be acting "in accordance" to the "demos" or "the people", in this case the aryan people in ther narrative. Again, universalizing political terms that are relative using ethical rethorics. Regarding the anti-communist allegations, they are again, merely rethorical, it's a false scotsman fallacy. You say that democracy is the political structure of communism (something against which i disagree, communism is the political structure of communism, democracy is not a "structure", rather, an element of one), i agree to the extent that the "demos" in question is the working class. However, i disagree if by democracy you mean active participation of each member of society by will. Being established all the arguments i exposed, i hope i have showed to you that democracy and freedom are not universal concepts and inherently valuable. If class, money, commodities, state, exchange value and conflicting interests are abolished, that is communism, a definition that can be fullfilled by a technocratic society, even by your definition, since to participate in government you would first need to demonstrate to the community that you are knowledgable and trustable. I simply do not agree that the more possibility for people to participate in government, regardless of ability, the better. The striving for the "democratic" (by your narrow definition) is braindead liberté egalité fraternité, burgeois, liberal values bullshittery, a radlib take, i instead propose to strive for the "best". Lastly, you alluded that right or good governance are arbitrary reasons to establish an "unjustified hierarchy". However, this is factually wrong, since in the realm of possibility, there is in fact a best option, weather it is known or not. This "best" option, (by which i do not mean the best that will backfire somehow, the best taking all into account) is what need to be strived for, and not any other. Now, for one to pursue to best, he must first know it and the course to take to achieve it. Then, there is a best possible thing for each and every thing, for example, there is a best possible hammer for a task, wether the one who's hammering knows it or not. And the one who is most likely to know the best hammer, is someone trained in the art carpintry, tool manufacturing, and hammers. This is what i mean by "best", which is itself never knowable for sure, but nontheless it is susceptible to be known "more" or "less". What i would desire out of a political government is that which i sketched here: >>642191
Remember OldBO? He would permaban pseuds like nihil poster. just sayin.
>>642426 are you unable to take on him? you need daddy to ban those who you dont like?
>>642438 >are you unable to take on him? He is an anti-communist pseud who literally has no stakes in the game and changes his "positions" every 10 minutes if you actually confront him. He's also a proud schizo and hobo who shits on the working class. He's a destructive little shit who thanks to our corrupt vols gets his own board and a pass from responsibility. He spent 10+ days spamming the chaz thread with his completely off topic shit and reposts of his own reposts while 80% anons were asking the corrupt vols to delete this faggot but they didn't because they are friends. There's absolutely no sense to engage him (believe me, I tried), and the vols should feel ashamed for backing this little shit who openly proclaimed several times that he's only here to destroy those threads he disagrees with with his meaningless word salads and 10 paragraph schizo word dumps that ultimately have the same theme: he's the biggest communist of all, while everyone else is just a fake.
>>642452 i see, they sound like legitimate reasons to hate this guy, i will have to see for myself though
>>642254 I actually had more issues with people not trusting me as a fed than anything when calling for organization, but others were completely on board with me. I wish I'd been able to stay around longer in the protests. The issues in this are actually twofold. A lot of people are distrustful of systems in general because they're realizing that the american system is deeply harmful but they haven't washed all the american propaganda out of their mind yet. This, along with a severe epidemic of deep-rooted alienation from a sense of community can make it very hard to get people to trust any sort of group of people anymore. They've no sense of how being in an organization of some kind can be helpful, and no reason to believe in it. Thus their sense of anarchism is entirely negative: anarchism as a society without rulers, capitalism, racism, classes, etc, but have no positive sense of anarchism, no concept of how to build up useful organizational structures Most of them enjoy spontaneous organization but don't seem to realize that it tends to fall apart again unless given some kind of recognition and backing - none of which necessarily involves hierarchies. It's unfortunate that they reject organization out of mostly fear and inexperience, because while anarchism has had issues with organization in the past, history has also suggested organized anarchists are capable of hitting way above their size. The other issue is something that I think we just have to live with, and that's the sheer level of infiltration by wreckers and feds. I don't know how to deal with that but everything I've seen suggests that intel agencies just do not have the same kind of extremely good spying and infiltration capability they once did.
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>>642452 100% lies. I have an extremely vested stake in all this, my life literally depends on it. My positions have remained consistent throughout the entire week I have been doing this, just as I told you last time you lied about this, so much so that another anon had commented entirely out of the blue that while they disagree with me on much they at least do not fault me for being "extremely internally consistent". To quote what I told you then when you first pushed this canard: <My substantial positions are not difficult to figure out if you take a break from lying and misrepresenting me to read what I have been saying. It will also clear up any genuine mischaracterisations you have stated about me, such as that I have been "shifting what [I] supposedly stand for every ten minutes", which is so obviously wrong that an anon above had actually commented how though they disagreed with me they could not fault me for being "extremely internally consistent". If anything I have been relentlessly beating on the same drum to a fault. To accuse me of anything less is to tell everyone here, loud and clear, that you have had absolutely no intellectual engagement with my posts and seek only to malign me because the text walls take too many seconds for you to scroll past and that is tiring your finger. I am a proud "schizo" insofar as I embrace it in a specifically Deleuzian sense -- something you do not understand because you never read Deleuze and you have yet to prove you can actually read at all. I am not actually schizophrenic, at least not in any hegemonic psychiatric sense, though it should not even matter if I was; I just consider the schizophrenia produced by capitalism to have immense emancipatory and "becoming-revolutionary" potential, in line with Deleuze. I am not a hobo, that lie has been pushed since the beginning when an anon randomly accused me of being the same anon who apparently claimed to be a hobo freegan. My response to them was the following: <You are probably thinking of someone else, though I do believe that socially dying is part of effective communist praxis (hobos are socially dead) and freeganism is a practical application of communism to eating and survival in capitalism. So while I have not (yet) advocated specifically becoming a hobo or dumpster diving, I respect immensely those who do as fellow communards exiting Capital and escaping into the Outside. And then retards like you took this as license to run with the canard and shitpost all manner of obsessive fanfiction about me being a dumpster-diving schizophrenic hobo who considers eating vegan Chinese food out of the trash to be communist praxis and that by "communism in the concrete" I mean the tweaked-out hallucinations brought on by injecting heroin, smoking meth, and inhaling the fumes of drying cement. While it is cute at a certain level, it really is just tiring and obnoxious and reveals the absolutely bottomless depravity to which anticoms like you will sink to malign me. Like I said before, I do not "shit on the working class". As I said in the sentence immediately preceding the one two quotes above that I had originally said to you when you first pushed this lie as well: <At no point have I been "shitting on workers", anymore than Marx does in describing the farm labourer as an instrumentum vocale. And later, when another (or perhaps again you) pushed this canard: <I do not despise working proles, I just have no faith that they can emancipate themselves from their own work without first refusing to work. You just showed your anticom colours, though, so I at least can relish in that. And no, what I posted in the /CHAZ/ thread was largely on-topic in a broad sense, but I will refrain from quoting all the explanation for that because frankly this is not the place and your dishonest off-topic attempts at derailing this thread and relitigating the other one should get you permabanned. Most did not ask for deleting my posts or banning me, even though most who responded to me or talked of me did so to express their scorn. Only a few were triggered enough to resort to such pleading, such as you. And lastly, no, you never actually tried to substantively engage me. You were a coward crying in the corner and shooting spitballs at the back of my head while I tried to teach all because I was effectively running the whole thread by merely contributing substantively to it when almost everyone else was not, and you resented that fact. Now kindly shut the fuck up and stop trying to make this thread about me, which is not the topic of discussion. You may want to distract from the valuable lessons found in C.H.A.Z., and may want to try to bait me into repeatedly defending my character from your endless lies so that it looks like I am the one derailing, but the volunteers see through this (and you hate that they do) and so do I. Don't expect me to grace you with another reply until you say something worth a damn. This thread is more important than you.
It results in comedies. Comedies are good for health. It's not all bad, everyone can sit back and have a laugh. Youtubers also make bank just by streaming the thing.
>>642495 brother, i awaited your response to my long post hoping to read something interesting, dont loose time in childish ego battles with these faggots
Is hoposter still coping?
>>642503 Get a room , faggot
I wouldn't say it's "over" over, all of these communes have been scattered and reformed because the police is too stretched thin to permanently re-occupy these areas as long as protests go on, which means that these communes just keep re-establishing themselves, but its a losing battle thus far. Anyone who says it's a lost battle though is either a doomer retard or a fed, the struggle shall continue for a while and we'll ultimately see what all we can learn and if a few of these communes can adapt and survive into a new era. Some takeaways from me: A lot of the different communes of these sorts have organized more or less wherever, often seizing areas with low amounts of manpower to join up in the operation. The best zones to seize would probably be residential zones, especially low-income housing blocks and apartments, where there are significant amount of people sympathetic to the cause. A good way to achieve this is offering the community some kind of service, Exarchia does it by having a fairly professional group of trade-skill workers which keep the community running more or less free of charge, they have communal gardens which produce free food, so on. Having more manpower means that there is much more capacity for resistance from police pushing in, as well as more manpower to build up defenses and contribute to projects as well. There is also a PR angle to it - it's easy to decry a few protesters who took over a street block as thugs and warlords, not as much to demonize entire street blocks. Second, expansion is like, the 3rd thing to do, right after securing the support of the local population and barricading up. As long as the police have their hands full, use your manpower to push out and take more area which you can barricade, it gives you more breathing room and land for doing projects, like free housing for homeless people, more rooftops for gardens, ect. Try to pace out expansion relative to your ability to use those areas and keep them secure, overextending yourself is a good way to get fucked. Third, get local reporters inside. Not like, corporate news, but twitch streamers and stuff to show that you are basically a regular town as far as operations go. Don't let the MSM totally secure the narrative, don't turn into a little hermit kingdom. Publicity sways the public to you and might draw in people with skills you need. Fourth, don't fucking flash weapons like what happened with the Redneck Revolt types. The only time you should heighten the violence (or potential thereof) is in response to the police. A lot of the times you don't need guns to win against the police, showering them with bricks from the rooftops does more than what bullets can. Lastly, an informal organization is a good thing to have. You don't need a strict hierarchy, but organizing people who work on similar projects in small groups will help a lot with coordination. The people building barricades can probably do small-time work around the houses too.
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>>642452 As the vol who has been "backing" the nihilist (I had nothing to do with /dead/ though, and no other vols as far as I can see are friends with this poster), I'm probably also the reason the other vols haven't banned you. You're stepping on almost as many toes as the nihilist. Just FYI.
>>642184 >I feel like everyone in this thread gives these people way to much shit. Like at least they left their fucking house and attempted something Yes, they do. And it is an anti-communist sentiment (the hoboposter is right on this, ffs) that is a reflection of pseuds who have never organized in their entire life. >inb4, I go to my party meetings That's not organizing. >>642120 >I can guarantee you that no "ML org" would ever have conceived, much less considered, an autonomous zone like this Peak LARP, hoboposter. You don't do any organizing, so unless you're going to say specifics on how to organize, then fuck off. ML has many different manifestations. >That is why no "ML org" in history has ever pulled off anything even as feeble and immature as C.H.A.Z. Are the zapatistas not democratic centralist (the L in ML)? Are none of the 50 "official" autonomous self-defense communities ML (plus the many many more that are rural and mountainous, not well known self-defense communities)? https://www.eluniversal.com.mx/estados/en-mexico-hay-50-autodefensas-en-seis-estados Spoiler: They are. I've personally met people from there and they read marx and lenin, and call themselves ML. Not all of the communities, but many do. You speak grandly of organizing, but you have only known ML orgs with vices (or perhaps just read about them). I have too (in person), and I've met even more anarchist orgs with even worse vices (rampant liberalism, racism, misogyny, identity politics, trans obessesion, drug cultism, extreme sectarianism, etc etc). Put your fucking money where your mouth is. How do YOU organize? I bet you're just like all the other lazy fuckers here who don't do shit, except pretend to read and mentally masturbate that they're somehow superior to those who actually do praxis. Theory is useless unless you're actively testing and refining it with IRL praxis. I will ask again, How do ==you= organize?
all of this thread lore makes me happy I skipped out on the CHAZ threads lmao
>>642533 It was pretty epic ngl. The bards will sing of it for years.
>>642525 understandable, remember always that while the master thinks about the object of knowledge, the slave thinks about the master. btw, when i said long post i meant this one: >>642386
>>642184 >I feel like everyone in this thread gives these people way to much shit. Like at least they left their fucking house and attempted something <Better to do nothing than to engage in localized acts whose ultimate function is to make the system run more smoothly. The threat today is not passivity, but pseudo-activity, the urge to "be active", to "participate", to mask the Nothingness of what goes on
>>642570 What Zizek was talking about here was recycling your garbage and donating to green peace.
>>642573 no he was talking about ALL 21st century political activism in general
>>642580 Source where Zizek says that redpiling normies and active organizing inside and outside "Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone" otherwise known as "Chop Chop The Bougies Head On The Block" is "pseudo-acitivity"?
>>641094 >>642530 >>642481 Thank fuck for some sane voices in all of this. What the hell do fizzle gang want? A spontaneous, perfect revolution where liberals magically become hardcore ML's? They're delusional. Like the revolution of 1917 took the revolution of 1905 and decades of agitation and organisation. It's hilarious that tankies shit on anarchists for not reading books when they're so fucking dumb themselves. The constant accusations of being glowies just reminds me that a lot of tankies used to be /pol/tards and so they've not dropped their debilitating paranoia >>641149 >Radlibs in all shape and forms must be kicked out of our politics, they are actively dangerous WTF is the alternative? You want a revolution composed of a couple dozen party members? AGITATE EDUCATE ORGANISE FFS
>>642595 Blessed post.
>>642595 >What the hell do fizzle gang want? A spontaneous, perfect revolution where liberals magically become hardcore ML's? Why do you retards keep bringing this retarded strawman? No, I don't want this or expect this to be 1917. I just wanted to see something resembling actual organization and revolutionary action. "Occupying" a couple blocks in a city only after the police left is not that Planting 10 lettuces in a park is not that Letting cops walk in and out is not that Playing music and chanting all night is not that Having your borders be concrete blocks the mayor office provided for you is not that letting rightoids come in and start shootings is nit that GROW THE FUCK UP, ANARKIDDIE FFS
>>642525 >>642530 (me) hoboposter, I hope I wasn't too aggressive. >>642629 Oh ok, got it. So you basically want a spontaneous, perfect revolution where liberals magically become hardcore ML's
>>642120 go back to /dead/ you anticommunist fuck
it failed because it was a state sponsored psyop
>>642629 And how do we get to that point? Imo it happens through liberals lived experiences. Part of that is doing ineffective shit like CHAZ.
>>642664 Not OP, but CHAZ will not radicalize anyone. If anything, it will turn people away. Squatopia bullshit belongs in the trash can, nobody sensible would think a bunch of stinky dirty crusty hippie greasebeasts shitting up a neighborhood with their trash presents any kind of serious alternative to anything.
>>642706 The looming crises will radicalize people. CHAZ will help teach people that they need to be organized effectively. Doesn't matter how many are put off by CHAZ, they will still be forced to rebel and if they do not like CHAZ then they are even less likely to make the same mistakes. The use of CHAZ is not that it's a good example of communism, but that it helps illuminate the path towards communism.
>>642720 >>642706 Like how do you expect liberals to know what action is needed? They're not going to listen to you. Most of them aren't going to read niche political theory like us. How else are they supposed to learn?
>>642720 >>642732 Yes, the key takeaway from CHAZ is how useless that type of affair is and to avoid any such communal dumpsterville shit in the future. I really don't think we need a CHAZ to teach us that though, it has been demonstrated countless times throughout history. And I was under the impression that CHAZ was an anarchist project ultimately, at least in the structural sense, unless liberals spontaneously started blathering about autonomous zones and decolonizing Puget Sound. So I don't think it was just inept liberals who didn't know any better running around like headless chickens.
>>642767 >I really don't think we need a CHAZ to teach us that though, it has been demonstrated countless times throughout history. Most people aren't reading history, let alone that kind of history ffs. Experience is how most people learn about most things. >So I don't think it was just inept liberals who didn't know any better running around like headless chickens. Yes there were anarchists involved, more than likely a decent number of anti-organisation anarchists as well, they however are a minority, and these anarchists would only be able to push CHAZ in a certain direction to a small degree. Most people involved in the revolution of 1917 were illiterate proles, who learned over a couple decades what needed to be done. The efforts of well read commies only helped accelerate the process.
>>642767 Remember comrade we call them radlibs when we're being polite and anarkiddies when we're being rude as a gesture of good faith to dissociate them from anarchism Even if they might personally identify as an anarchist This is what political correctness was originally for before anglo radlibs made a mockery of the concept, diplomatic language during practical organizing
>>642776 (me) It wasn't meant to mean you can't take the piss and let it all out in less formal settings originally
>>642779 Except to autists
>>642120 >tankies are the real anticommunists the absolute state of squatopians
>>642773 I'm not suggesting most people read history or whatever, I'm saying leftists ought to abandon garbage strategies like squatopias. The autozone shit was entirely the product of the Seattle anarchists, and I suspect they would have had better results if they had used different strategies. I really don't think you even need to study history to understand that setting up a glorified hobo camp in a neighborhood where the average income is 100,000 dollars a year is pants-on-head retarded, but I suppose it is clear to everyone now. Either way, my point is that leftists certainly had no excuses.
How is a squatopia ever supposed to amount to anything when it never has any means of production? All I've ever seen out of it is handing out looted food and goods (not sustainable after initial stock is depleted), amateur gardening (in the most ideal cases enough for bare subsistence of maybe few households), and of course a lot of drug dealing (which is produced elsewhere so only benefits the local middle man). This goes for every supposed autonomous zones. they never fucking make anything, they just exist parasitically on an existing capitalist society, relying on both constant replenishing of the people and the goods they consume coming in from outside
>>642830 Haven't you heard wokesplaining liberals incoherently rambling into megaphones are the Soviets of the 21st century, if you don't support them you're an anti-communist and you would probably have whinged about the Paris Commune. This is communism in practice guys. Anyway I'm gonna go eat as the garbage truck just pulled in.
>>642861 >Haven't you heard wokesplaining liberals incoherently rambling into megaphones are the Soviets of the 21st century, if you don't support them you're an anti-communist and you would probably have whinged about the Paris Commune. This is communism in practice guys. Anyway I'm gonna go eat as the garbage truck just pulled in. MLs are useful even if you don't agree, you're just useless.
>>642892 That's v obviously someone just using the flag and trolling...
>>642899 ik. Could tell with garbage truck thing.
>>642817 >I'm saying leftists ought to abandon garbage strategies like squatopias. I agree that we should not make it the entirety of our strategy >The autozone shit was entirely the product of the Seattle anarchists, and I suspect they would have had better results if they had used different strategies. Is there proof of this? Following the CHAZ thread it seemed to me like a pretty spontaneous event, sparked by rioters kicking the police out of their precinct. There's no way there were enough black flag anarchists to make it themselves, liberals had to be involved en mass, and those liberals are likely to learn from those mistakes, while the black flag anarchists may not. >>642830 agree with this, this is why building dual power is a slow process, where we build a new economy and create the social relationships that exist in autonomous zones but are sustainable.
>>642907 >I agree that we should not make it the entirety of our strategy What kind of place do you see it having in leftist strategy? I personally don’t see it, but I’m curious. >Is there proof of this? ... I didn’t mean to imply the Seattle anarchists were responsible for the entire thing, just the autozone squatopia stuff. But yeah, liberals and even freshmen leftists who participated might have learned from the experience. No doubt it feels like the U.S. left is relearning many lessons of history, like the old left did. Don’t get me wrong, I wished the best for the CHAZ anarchists, I simply think their strategies were entirely impotent and unrealistic.
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>>641782 How's your Three Gorges Dam holding up? >>641900 >What will be remember is for 2 weeks the police were pushed out of 6 blocks of territory. And if there was serious crime or suspicions of it, they would've just steamrolled in. Because a bunch of jersey barriers with grafitti guarded by non-guards doesn't even have to be breached. And having doodled with gardening myself, I really hope that this sparks the interest in serious gardening for at least a few. More productive with growing potatoes in a bucket on the balcony or growing herbs and spices at the windowsill than having a prominent non-leader of all the leaders they are not having with some kind of turtle personal armor.
>>643013 >>641900 P.S. Disregarding the garden that may plant some seeds of serious gardening, this is a spherical failure. It doesn't matter from what perspective nor distance you're watching it from. - It's stil a failure!
>>643013 >And if there was serious crime or suspicions of it, they would've just steamrolled in. Attempted mass murder by firearms isn't a serious crime comrade?
>>643025 Or was it an intelligence failure Or a we all know what
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>>642386 By "freedom" I mean the material conditions of free association (and dissociation), free labour, free creativity, and free play, all of which relies upon the freedom from coercion in all its forms, whether slavery or subjugation or oppression or domination or work or control. It is freedom to live as one sees fit, without constraints or conditions, in harmony with your fellow free ones; freedom from subjectivities which are hostile to this freedom within ourselves and toward each other. Freedom is the domain of those free from all dominion, the unconditional qualitative space to be free -- to be loved, to be dear to all around you, to be dearly loved by yourself too. It is what arises from communion with all those whose interests you share and about whose interests you care, for those interests are of interest because paying them heed always accrues interest for those interested in heeding them, which they need to pay if they wish to be repaid in kind for their kindness. It is the ability to say "I am free!" and mean it and prove it through your ability to say and mean it in every word and action of your everyday living. In so many words, freedom is communism in the concrete. Or, to define it by negation, I will let Debs explain: >Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind then that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; and while there is a criminal element, I am of it; and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. This is what freedom means and has always meant, from the very origins of the word itself to its complete and partial conceptualisations in theorists such as Stirner, Marx, Bakunin, and Kropotkin. Those who abuse this notion for ideological purposes, who instrumentalise it toward fundamentally unfree ends, they have always been haters of freedom because to be free is to be free from such shackles and free to live in all the ways they despise. Do not let these grifters and frauds contaminate notions of what it means to be free. That is precisely how they seek to preclude it altogether. To dismiss this as a "childish desire" by those too "immature" to base it on anything more than resentment is to effectively express your opposition to freedom for all and endorsement of precisely the same oppression and domination and control that parents get to exercise in this society except applied societally. In other words, you are opposed to communism in the concrete. I have repeated numerous times before that I advocate for retreat, refusal, exit, and escape from Capital. Those four steps are what I endorse as the only path for the real movement, the only effective method of establishing communism, and the only shot we have left at finally breaking free from this world and its dystopian timeline through the disclosure of new communist futures. This is not a mere matter of will (at least as anything more than a persistent fiction), but of wisdom -- of seeing the doom, of knowing and judging, of intellect and action, of sense and quality, of conscience and condition. This wisdom must be cultivated just as much as must be will, indeed just as much as must be freedom and communism, for they must first be born within before they can be borne without and must be practiced both personally and politically in order to be practiced at all. Society is not reducible to individuals, and I never suggested otherwise, though it ultimately only really comprises individuals because everything else therein and thereof -- indeed even society itself! -- are little more than mass hallucinations of their minds. What this reveals, however, is that society only exists insofar as its members produce (and reproduce) it; to treat society as a thing in itself, as any more real than the mental mechanics of its constituent machines, is to reduce society to being the natural space in which individuals only socially exist. It is ultimately idealism, for it treats this idea called "society" as real and treats it as more real than those realising it. I (and you and we) do not merely exist for society; society exists for me (and you and us). Only in societies which are fundamentally unfree is this untrue, which is precisely why this society is unfree -- and neither am I nor is you nor are we. Freedom is not to act optimally, but to act with autonomy and without constraint. The tobacco addict is unfree in their relation to tobacco not because it is suboptimal but because it constrains their autonomy. If they use tobacco without it constraining them so, then they can do so freely even if it is suboptimal in some sense. Displacing the freedom of freedom by substituting optimism in its place fundamentally fails to understand freedom because it constrains freedom to be only that which is "best" (whatever that means, whoever decides that) rather than that which is permitted. This is a corrosive consequence of the cult of positivity, of the totalitarian utilitarian calculus which attempts to solve for suffering by prohibiting freedom and reducing the free to utility functions, which warrants all manner of slavery and subjugation and oppression and domination and work and control in the name of optimisation such that slaves are their best selves so long as they free to be happy and free from misery -- so long as they are free to do as they are told. What this death-affirming thesis fundamentally misunderstands about the optimal -- beyond its affirmation of death in slavery as better than life while free -- is the coterminous consubstantiality it shares with freedom. To be free is the best possible outcome because it alone allows the possibility for the best possible world to be the subject of one's freedom rather than merely the object to which one is subjected. To be free, to be loved dearly both within and without and to be surrounded by loved ones who will aid you in any time of trouble and support you through any struggle no matter where you go or to whom you turn, is the best possible world, not the one so deadened into silence by tranquillity that the passionate flame of your very existence is snuffed out along the way to nirvana. So for the man at the crossroads, so long as he chooses freely, both paths are the ways to freedom, and both paths are ways through freedom, for both paths will then be walked in the best possible way because the optimal is contingent on the optional and only the free can opt at all.
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>>642386 >>643031 Your "organic" conception of society is fundamentally fascist because it derives from a corporatist conception of the body politic that erases the Real by reifying the Virtual, thereby naturalising the space in which the Leviathan can rise and rule. There is no body politic, no social body that organically arises from the organisation of its cells; there are only real bodies without organs generating organs without bodies, the molar and molecular aggregations and transformations of matter in sequences to which we ascribe time. Only by ignoring this material reality, and naturalising an ideology of ultimately fascist character, does this cancerous stratification occur and through it justification for the birth of the Leviathan. You want a "head" for this "body" because you have forsaken the head on yours and pledged what remains beneath it to the new head that takes its place. What results is not a society with a leader, but a society of followers -- not a society that is free, but a society of slaves who lack it, the worst possible world. When I say the "universalisation of freedom", I knowingly mean freedom for the molar and molecular bodies -- the multiplicities and their disembodied organs -- which compose a free society. Conceptualising freedom thus disprivileges all modes of privileged existence, both of the "individual" and the societies generated from their aggregation. That is freedom as a universal property, where freedom is the plane of consistency within which all bodies partake without any one, real or virtual, being privileged over any other or dominating another. Freedom as such is not a value of the collective nor the individual but of both within a relation that privileges neither. That is why communism, as the abolition of the present state of things, is fundamentally free: it sides with neither the One nor the many, the individual nor the collective, and instead synthesises both into a multiplicative whole. For you to insinuate this collectivist thesis of freedom is to fundamentally endorse a bourgeois conception thereof, for only in bourgeois logic does this false individualism/collectivism ideology persist and only through communism is it abolished. Once, long ago, I had had a long conversation with an Italian fascist. He was very thoughtful and intelligent and astute; he helped me understand fascism on its own terms and exposed me to fascist theory with couth and grace and goodwill -- and many words. He was deeply interested in engineering a better society that fundamentally addressed the problems of capitalism and modernity and which did not succumb to communist solutions. He did so because he was sincerely interested in achieving an optimally governed society, one in which the State would reign without restraint, where democracy had no place, where all the wants and needs of the people were technocratically administered with competence and care. His conceptions of society, of polity, of optimality, of hierarchy, of democracy, of state, of freedom -- they are precisely the exact same as yours. I disagreed with him on similar grounds then as I do with you now.¹ It is on these grounds and many more that I accuse you and others of being anticommunists, and conversely define myself as its antithesis -- not as an appeal to purity, but as an acknowledgement of fact. As I said on the first day I arrived in the /CHAZ/ thread to haunt these hollows, when I was falsely accused of precisely this same charge: <This is not an "appeal to purity". This is an appeal to communism and the material analyses which instruct our real movements in practicing it. There is no communism to be found in 20th-century dead-ender utopianism, nor in the cannibalistic contempt for this moment just because it is more spontaneously communist than any organisational attempt has even imagined accomplishing for over half a century. There is no "corruption" here, in these discussions, that I seek to purge; there are no communists here at all, at least none I can see, which I seek to redress. I want to be wrong about that assessment, but I continually receive evidence to the contrary. Nothing is "inherently valuable", anything can be universalised, and everything is relative. Opposing the universalisation of democracy and freedom, as universal properties of communist existence, on the basis of their penchant for relativity and lack of inherent value ultimately does not address my argument because it already accounts for those realities. To then claim victory in vanquishing it is as mistaken as believing that the inexistence of the Christian God disproves Nietzsche's thesis that God is dead: it misunderstands the argument being presented and attempts to refute it on grounds that are ultimately either already within the point or beside it altogether. So no, your fascist technocracy does not satisfy the conditions for communism because it sustains the state -- understood as fundamentally the institution of alienated government -- and engineers all possibility for freedom out of existence through the machinations of the new technocratic class ruling it. The basic interest of being free, of free association and creativity and labour and play, of freely conducting one's own affairs and participating in making decisions which affect it, is nowhere to be found in such a fascist technocracy -- which is precisely why it is a fascist technocracy and not communism. If that alone is not enough, then consider alone your obsession with optimisation: whence does it come? All I see in this obsession is the same capitalist drive for economising all of existence into ever-reducing production processes toward the end of innovating more efficient ways of extracting and accumulating capital. It is in this universal economisation that one finds the abolition of freedom in the pursuit of the "optimum", the justification of hierarchy in the process of its production, the need for a "head" to lead the headless in their work, the technocratic management of these headless and administration of their everyday lives, the totalitarian tyranny of utility calculus, the contempt for the unworthy masses and opposition to their participation in conducting their own affairs, the conjuration of a General Will to subsume and subjugate all the unwilling, the deceptive language games that recuperate all resistance to these conditions -- in so many words: fascism, capitalism in decay. ----- ¹ - We parted ways shortly thereafter, on surprisingly amicable grounds, and never spoke since. Of all he sought to inculcate in me, he did teach me one lesson that has lasted: sometimes, in a world that tells you that you are insane and makes you feel so every single day, the reality is that you are the only one in it with any sanity at all. I appreciate him for that, and remember him because of it. Ironic that it took a fascist -- of all people -- to teach me this, and I keep it in mind even as I post as an antifascist among ostensible antifascists, all of whom insist that I am insane.
>>642861 Not me, but a better attempt than previous ones.
>>642992 >What kind of place do you see it having in leftist strategy? I personally don’t see it, but I’m curious. I think that a way to help ensure we don't recreate capitalist social relations after seizing the MOP is to start practicing it now. I also think carving out those spaces are effective in politically engaging a specific portion of society that have fallen through the cracks. I think creating our own food networks is more effective and sustainable but permaculture isn't everyone's thing and I get that. I think that we should all find a space in the real world and start undermining capitalism however possible until the insurrection comes and do our best to make sure its a structured revolution, not something spontaneous like CHAZ. I also think there is the benefit of mutual aid which can help build bonds within the community and with the left org. People aren't going to take us seriously unless they respect us, we can build respect by actually helping people.
>>643036 >Your "organic" conception of society is fundamentally fascist because it derives from a corporatist conception of the body politic that erases the Real by reifying the Virtual, thereby naturalising the space in which the Leviathan can rise and rule.
>>642992 The point is that they're not relearning, they're not even really approaching learning, they're experiencing. Honestly the majority of people who decry CHAZ are not really any different from those who are supportive; to them all it's just participation in spectacle for the purpose of triangulating to maintain coherence of political identity. There's nothing to critique or support, it just is and it just was, the reactions to it are quite frankly ridiculous and are more about subculture and consumptive identity. Organization is a process.
>>640942 It failed since it was run by retarded radlibs more concerned with hedonistic pleasure seeking than actual concrete goals( philosophical hedonism isn't nearly as retarded as they are)
>>643046 Ofc the nihilist shizo is here. Can we filter memeflags?
Yeah, I have to agree with everyone who was saying it was a lack of organization and any real leadership; that was, clearly, the issue. Another issue was liberalism. One of the biggest issues was liberals using their idpol to prevent leftists from actually taking control and, even at times, being hostile to us. I think we must, now, create an organized movement against this liberalism. I don't think we should ignore certain aspects of capitalism that may effect people differently, but, we need some type of organized labor movement to be the central focus of these events or we will end up with cringe zones every time. No matter what you think it did have the right wingers and fox in an absolute shit fit. Which is pretty funny. TLDR; We need a radical labor union, or, a party that represents the interests of the people.
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>>643031 >This is not a mere matter of will (at least as anything more than a persistent fiction), but of wisdom -- of seeing the doom, of knowing and judging, of intellect and action, of sense and quality, of conscience and condition. This wisdom must be cultivated just as much as must be will, indeed just as much as must be freedom and communism, for they must first be born within before they can be borne without and must be practiced both personally and politically in order to be practiced at all. "they must first be born within" Nope that is idealism, what goes on in people's heads is a reflection of reality, it might not be an accurate reflection as it being distorted, but there can never be a within that is the origin of anything, because that is postulating a mind separate from reality. >Society is not reducible to individuals, and I never suggested otherwise, though it ultimately only really comprises individuals because everything else therein and thereof -- indeed even society itself! -- are little more than mass hallucinations of their minds. What this reveals, however, is that society only exists insofar as its members produce (and reproduce) it; to treat society as a thing in itself, as any more real than the mental mechanics of its constituent machines, is to reduce society to being the natural space in which individuals only socially exist. It is ultimately idealism, for it treats this idea called "society" as real and treats it as more real than those realising it. I (and you and we) do not merely exist for society; society exists for me (and you and us). Only in societies which are fundamentally unfree is this untrue, which is precisely why this society is unfree -- and neither am I nor is you nor are we. The word "individual" literally means boundary that separates from society, you need to form a society for the concept of individual to apply. Mind you that without a society there would still be people with bodies separated from the environment, but that separation is something else entirely. So human bodies come together they form a society and then after that individuals form. You a have lego theory of society where individuals are bricks and the society is constructed from these bricks, that's not how it works
Imho I've had some comrades from seattle go down there and to say this autonomous zone was lead by """anarchists"" is a joke. At best, it was mostly rad libs and other liberals. If this is the case, marxists and anarchists who've actually read their theory have to step up and organize. Any anarchist who advocates disorganisation either 1. Needs to read some fucking Makhno if they want to achieve the american free territory, or better yet actually read Malatesta, Bakunin, or read up on Democratic Confederalism or better yet also read some fucking Marx. Forming organisation is not antithetical to anarchism. or 2. Should be fucking moved out and ignored. People who whine ITT about decentralized organization failing haven't a clue what they're talking about because there was little organization to begin with. Another point is secretarianism from other leftists and fizzle posters should be fucking ignored and banned on sight. Doomerist shit over not seeing a vanguard party spontaneously show up only speaks volumes of the petty idealism that these so called """revolutionaries"""" have. The point is, you're going to need some straight fucking ideological unity forming. You can call Platformism anarchist forms of leninism all you like you're wrong either way, but at least it'll get anarchists to get rid of anarchist tourists and have theme militarize quicker.
>>643699 I think, personally, syndicalism is the most successful form of anarchism we have ever seen. It's a shame we didn't have anything revolving around that in seattle.
>>643699 >Doomerist shit over not seeing a vanguard party spontaneously show up only speaks volumes of the petty idealism that these so called """revolutionaries"""" have. *yawn* that retarded straw man again. It’s all so tiresome 🥱🥱🥱
>>643040 This guy has organized and it shows. All other idiots are high on ideology.
>>643013 >How's your Three Gorges Dam holding up? perfectly, any rumours to the contrary are literally fascist propaganda straight from /pol/ as always radlibs and fascist whining about China is identical
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>>643025 >Attempted mass murder by firearms isn't a serious crime comrade? When and who? >>643790 >fascist 10 Yuans have been deposited to your swiss numbers account. Seriously, I'm not denying that there's people who wants it to happen. I do not. But what this pandemic is revealing are all these systemic failures in pretty much all affected countries. And even if 3GD is THE apex of human engineering so can't it cover up for other problems along the Yangtze. Such as landslides, deforestation and pavement of areas that could've absorbed floods. Countries where things like these happen are in the middle tier of economic development but in the higher tier of corruption. Rich countries have in general a low level of corruption or at least it isn't affecting building codes. Poor countries can't afford houses like these.
>>640993 >the Syrian insurgency Lmao imagine how Assad would've dealt with Chaz, the whole place would be rubble right now.
>>641613 Jezus h christ dude spoiler that shit please
>>644070 tl; dr: no proof, but I must believe bad things about China, they cannot possibly succeed!
>>643031 >>643036 My good fellow, you made me happy, since what you wrote was said in a beautiful manner and sincerely touched my heart. For an anon to take the time to answer in such a way, I do thank you genuinely. However, regarding the argument itself, you are right to say that we are antithetical to each other, to a point beyond theoretical reconciliation. I cannot but disagree with every single point you made. In fact, i've come to notice that our dispute is not political, rather, very much deeper and beyond ideology, its is ontological in nature, so i'll start from the most basic of your points to then move to the ones that are more accidental and bleed out of ontology: You start your basic point by saying that society is not reducible to individuals, but is nontheless composed of it, which they also are the ones that reproduce it through their practices. However, you then go on to say that what we call society, it's just a purely nominal concept, a phantasmagorical entity, a "flatus vocis". You then say that to "treat society as more real to those realising it" is ultimately idealism, and that society is meant for the subject, and not the other way around. At first sight this seems to be coherent, but the argument is contradictory, and actually start from an idealist perspective, assuming you are opposed to it. It seems to me that you place the human as the most fundamental being of all, and that all things beyond human exist only insofar as humans have a concept or word for it. A waterfall, that moves through the air, we see it as one, but ultimately it is just a collection of H2O, the same applies to toasters, trees, and everything, as everything can be said to be composed of something else, except maybe an hypothetical most fundamental particle or whatever thing it may be. I do not know if you apply the same reasonment to everything in existence, that all we percieve as unitary entities are really phantasmagorical concepts projected onto matter, or bundle of qualities. however, the same critique will be made regardless of the extent of which you apply this belief, because you do ultimately use it for society. This assumes that our immanent reality is radically mutilated from the one that is trascendent of us. In this sense, the existence of the object to which we relate to is real only insofar as it is immanent, and in fact, everything is, which leaves the trascendental, so to speak, in a place of always-non-being. This leaves ontology splitted in half, one for the human and every existent thing on the other, or at least, since we are talking about the ontological status of society, any possible being that has humans as part of its assemblage. I wish to start by making clear that a human being is no central part of the fabric of the universe, it is an entity that exists in the same mode as every other being, only very "immanently" complex, and as every other being, it can be a mere part of somethig beyond it. But you'll say, beings with a "mind" are the only ones that are susceptible to have "immanence" to begin with, thus legitimizing the split. I'd say that what we experience is not really "immanence", not really a dimensional split, but in fact just a "relation within an assemblage", which is common to everything, in fact, i do not believe in "minds" as commonly understood. To understand it better, i always put the example of a computer: immagine it holding data inside of him, whose monitor provides the image of it. The image and the data within it are not realties abstracted from the rest of the fabric of the universe, it is contained within it, and is not a separte world, rather, a mere relation of an assemblage within its parts and the others. It is also for this reason that the concept of "life", "subject", are so problematic, they draw an ontological distinction that is in fact unfounded and based on anthropocentrism or "biocentrism". But before continuing, all this quickstarts many other topics that need to be adressed: 1.why can't an assemblage reduced to its parts? 2.Where do we draw the distcinction of an entity and another? 3.How do we know an entity is "real" or not? 1.Its because assemblages are more than the sum of their parts, this is why a mere bunch of legos can form artforms, It is not just legos, its also the way that they are assambled in, which is not arbitrary. This difference is obviously called "form". 2. An entity withholds infinite possibilities, that cannot be exahusted by our relation to it. In this sense, however, we can only draw a distinction through relations: we can say an individual thing is that which can relate as such with others. One must not forget the composition of a thing though: if we can relate to god, that doesnt mean a material god exist, only a material concept of god, with many forms: as a neuronal link, as letters, as images... This will serve as an answer to question number 3 too. In this sense, unicorns, and any social construct, is very real, just not the same way of real as a horse with a horn made of flesh is. Lastly, i want to better adress the question of immanence and subject. We are said to have conciousness, since we can have intentionality with things, or for many other reasons, and draw a distinction there. However, a rock can also "encounter the world": when a rock hits another one, it leaves a mark on it forever, its encounter has been "mapped" by the rock in the form of the impact, miniscule how it might be. In this sense, a rock can "percieve" the same way we do, the difference reside in the fact that through the causal and material process of evolution, the entities we call "life" have sublimed their means of "mapping" and "percieving". In this sense, we "encounter" and thereafter aid our "percieve" through "maps", such as concepts, language et al, but what we map cannot be reduced to the map, and a map is a map of something, and there are better maps than others. This is not unique to us. Back on track though. Your notion of society is very liberal, its as if its existence only really implies a harmony of practices and wills, since its reduced to subjectivity. I disagree entirely, a human is but a thing, an "ant" if you will, any great apotheoisis of humanity or life in general i oppose. An ant forms an assemblage to form its community of ants, it however, can or cannot be aware of it, the assemblage remains the same. When we are "encountering" we are already "thrown into the world", millenia of culture and civilization are there before us and indipendently of anyone involved. Society, or a community, are assemblages, our individual relation to them do not matter for they to exist. Our matter objectively moves this way to perform as an assemblage, a state can also be, its materiality is unavoidable. People live and die, state withstand the passage of time better than most people, the entity of the USA for example, is much more of the sum of the perceptions of it. This is also that much more complex when we take into account the fact that an assamblage of such proportions is by far not only made of humans, but also many other things, such as weapons, modes of production, political structures, institution, infrastructure, tools, cultural artifacts and histories of culture in general, all things which relate to each other indipendently of the sum of the will of humans. Capital moves mysteriously, the same for any mode of production, this is one of the many lessons of marx and the masters of suspicion: behind your perception of the world, there are bigger entities, being it within your particular assamblage (freudian unconcious) or one that you are a part of(marx with mode and relations of production, Nietzsche with what we can roughly call culture). In this sense, YOUR account of society is very much idealistic, it denies material reality in exchange of the collective thoughts of individuals, it places the entire organization by which humans move on an immanent, nominal ontological status.
>>644141 Faggot
My organic conception does not come from a corporatist, this claim is utterly absurd and the lowest point of your argumentation. The political body has been a concept in political philosophy long before any fascist or corporativist politics existed. It is you that adopt a social ontology of the likes of margaret tatcher: society does not exist, only individuals. This is also why your strive for freedom is completely trivialized. No one is free in any way that you describe: >By "freedom" I mean the material conditions of free association (and dissociation), free labour, free creativity, and free play, all of which relies upon the freedom from coercion in all its forms, whether slavery or subjugation or oppression or domination or work or control. when we are born, we are already born within material condition which we cannot but accept, revolution is not about a sudden change of will, the system of production and culture themselves are is what changes, far beyond the "maps" made of it or the value placed on it by individuals. I forgot to add, language and culture, inicially just mere "maps" are now beings of their own, which stand above us and completely determine us. The freedom you strive for does not exist, we are always already constrained by the world, and its in fact this constraint the origin of value. In a certiain sense, the freedom you pursue derives its beauty from its impossibility. What can be desired, is a "better" system, a more beautiful culture, but freedom, im afraid that even in an utopia of virtuous anarchists (and if you have ever been around anarchist collectives, you know they are the most obnoxious places to be in) will not be possible, the constraints will be thighten by the possibilities offered by the material condition present at that time, same as it ever has been. If you read the Critique of the Gotha Program, you would know how much marx would disagree with you on every level regarding this topic.
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>>640942 >mfw anarchism demonstrates to not even be able to get past the organizing stage and consequently failing for the 79th time.
>>642452 >>643657 This 100 %
>>641782 based. keep seething anarcho schizos
>>641286 >>641908 >Communal gardens were planted, mutual aid was universal, free association and free creativity were encouraged, labour was only performed freely and playfully, and even those who cleaned up the messes did so voluntarily without any hint of it being coerced into work >This reveals the possibility for communist practice at an unconscious level, which is something of which we must be aware and for which we ought to look when surveying these material conditions and interpreting their emancipatory potential. Wait, when did all those things happen, I believed you just invented all of them... Your relationship of their being no state traducing automatically too freedom without any explanation is obtuse to say the least, delusional being the case in point.in what form was mutual aid implemented, besides, the idea is for it too last, not too just be spontaneous. >, but what ultimately separates him from the Leninists and Stalinists Your ignorance shows, those two are the same thing. >While there may be a place for activists and activities such as Raz and C.H.O.P., it became clear that whatever admirable commitment to militancy and politicising aesthetics they had, their attempts at capturing the moment failed to reckon with it. Rather than seeking to educate the liberals and expose their communist practices as precisely that and thus inexplicable according to their own bourgeois logics, Raz and the rest chose instead to disavow the festivities altogether and split the most militant within it off into a protest that conflicted with C.H.A.Z. when it should have complemented it. Gee, I wonder why that happened... >Perhaps this was just because of how liberal and novitiate Raz himself was to all this, but what ultimately separates him from the Leninists and Stalinists was only the effectiveness of his attempts at repressing communist practice. Intensifying his "radicalism" in that regard, when it comes from a place hostile to C.H.A.Z., would have only intensified his ability to recuperate the moment back into bourgeois political forms. In that regard, what we learn from Raz and the rest is precisely what should be obvious since 1920: never allow the authoritarians and left-reactionaries anywhere near the real movement, even when they proclaim what they do to be in service of it you talk about the soviets "repressing the communists" which is just the repression of counter-revolutionaries, and you want to do the same without a state, this is a genious level conclusion right here > But it took C.H.A.Z. to reveal this, both there and here. It didn´t reveal anything it just showed showed yet again what we already knew about anarchism, that it´s an outdated concept and it is not the way of building communism.
>>641094 >How exactly did it fail? It was just a spontaneous sentimental movement that leached off of floyd´s assasination, it was never technically a communist movement, as you have well said, it was mostly lead by liberals. >How is this not liberals slowly figuring autonomous zones out? Just weeks ago they were just finding out for the first time in their lives that ALL cops are bastards. Weeks later they set up an autonomous zone in a high income neihborhood. Nigga, you wanted full insurrection from liberals? This argument could be applied to all free terretories in history, did the Makhnovites learn how to do the revolution while in Ukraine?, or the CNT?, no they were completely crushed and Anarchism never gain the same support as it used to have, whilst not bringing any progress to humanity as a whole, and having no organization at all, because there was no group that took care of such task.
It is vitally important to have a good critique of CHAZ that isn't just scathing criticism. In many ways, this is the first real attempt at radlib "praxis" that we've seen and we need to have serious critique available and published for people to read to tell people who had hopes for this why it failed and where to go from here to push them out of radical liberalism and into actual leftism. You should be out there trying to right what was wrong, not berate the brainwashed masses for being brainwashed.
It failed because it was disorganized, lacked any real leadership, was SJW liberalism getting offended that police killed a black man. All the riots were doomed from the start. Because they lacked any real organization and goals.
>>643549 The problem I have with this is that it thinks we can push idpol liberals out of that mindset. Any kind of 'more radical than thou' or 'listen to me liberals' is only going to push people away. You have to organise in the liberals' spaces and help people realise the problems of their praxis. I used to be involved in the local chapter of an anrcho-syndicalist union and we never engaged with people because we were so alien to them. As soon as I got involved in XR and dropped the red flags and old school jargon people started listening to me. >>643699 Based >>643716 What is your actual position then? I've only seen low effort sass come from yall. >>644906 Mostly agree with what you're saying anon, however there was something which stuck out to me; >freedom, im afraid that even in an utopia of virtuous anarchists will not be possible, the constraints will be thighten by the possibilities offered by the material condition present at that time, same as it ever has been. We have the capability to unshackle ourselves. We have the knowledge now to shrink the leviathan to our community. Industrial agriculture creates a huge sprawling network of food producers, food transporters, sellers, etc. but with utilising something like permaculture we can abolish that leviathan. We can take back control of the MOP and thus have freedom.
>>640942 that radlibs are actual cancer and should be unironically gulagged.
>>645510 >just kill most people and the dozen communists left will make communism >almost being a posadist
>>645522 w-what? Did you reply to the wrong nigger? I said radlibs should be gulagged, not fucking lined up and shot.
>>645524 >just put people in a gulag, that'll help make revolution Have you ever spoken to a human being?
>>645529 >Have you ever spoken to a human being? No, I'm a boltzmann brain and i don't believe in spooks such as "humanity"
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im not sure it fail. Maybe our perspective that it was anything revolutionary form the very beginning was a miscalculation. It seems to be more of a popular uprising against the police in the area more than anything else, with no clear direction (other than creating a police free zone) and no one trying to push anything further revolutionary. They didn't try to expand, they lost momentum, their was no real organized effort for it to be anything other than a 'fuck the police zone. Now, i don't think that's a bad thing, it might, in the long run be one of the first time some people have some real agency in their lives and a sense of real community in a country with so much alienation. And American's don't get that in their normal lives. It was a spark that turned into an ember and is now slowly loosing it's heat.
>>644356 >reminders Thanks for the reminders. And if you wipe off your ideological glasses you can see that I'm having a differentiated view on China. They are doing a lot of good things. But they can't in any way balance up the bad things. And even if there was no uyghur concentration camps, no pollution and no pandemic, 3GD would still be a sword hanging by a hair.
>>645674 >this time the propaganda about china will be true brb getting a few uyghur livers on discount
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>>642530 You are criticising me for the assumed extent to which I "organise" or participate in organisational politics (or do not) when this entire time I have been critiquing and condemning precisely that approach as bourgeois praxis that is fundamentally unable to produce communist conditions and will always recuperate the real movement. So wagging your finger at me for not organising (which is an assumption you made, not evidence you have) entirely misses the point and accomplishes nothing but the affirmation of your own obsessional organisationalist politics. So, if what you are telling me is that I fail to be practicing politics on your terms if I am not sufficiently "organising" (whatever that means), then so be it and all the better for it. I am not here to perform for you; I am here to critique the assumptions which inform such dead-end approaches to politics in the first place. Regarding communist praxis without organisational methods in particular, I already specified a general description of how that can be done in the /CHAZ/ thread, though it had probably been pushed off the thread by now. When I stated it then, however, I received exactly zero substantive response (and further ridicule), so I am not particularly interested in replaying this game of satisfying such demands only so that I can be mocked for giving the "wrong" answer. If you or anyone else here is unable to put aside the Org death cult ideology for even long enough to interrogate their premises and consequences and consider alternatives to them, then it is pointless for me to get into specifics because the basic point of problematising organisation/alism remains unaddressed. I do not consider the Zapatistas to be "Marxist"-Leninists and I have been given no evidence to support that claim. All I have found is that Marcos once said that neozapatismo is both "Marxist"-Leninist and not "Marxist"-Leninist, which amounts to just words as far as I am concerned and, if anything, just emphasises that neozapatismo is anti-ideological. Therefore, claiming Zapatista activities as evidence of "Marxist"-Leninist activity, especially when you are literally one of the only apparent "M"Ls I have encountered who even consider the Zapatistas to be anything more than anarcho-utopians, just seems like a desperate attempt at finding something to rehabilitate the long and unambiguous history of "M"Ls and their ilk being left-reactionary anticommunist parasites who destroy communism wherever it is found and recuperate real movements whenever they form. Maybe you do not endorse that and maybe you find such behaviour disgusting, but if so, then I can only recommend you stop identifying with such disgusting politics and leave that "left" behind altogether. Perhaps you have met people involved in Zapatista activities who read Lenin (that does not make one a "M"L; I am not a "Marxist"-/Leninist simply because I read Lenin), advocate for democratic centralism, and call themselves "M"Ls. That is troubling news, but it does not therefore make the whole movement a "M"L victory (even if I am convinced of such outsized "M"L presence, which I am not), especially when the history of that ideological constellation has been the systematic destruction of anything vaguely resembling what the Zapatistas have accomplished every single time. If you think that the Zapatistas will still exist if ever the day comes that Mexico is a "M"L state, then you are expecting literally unprecedented behaviour from "Marxist"-Leninists. I do not measure success by the extent to which one participates in organising or organisational politics; if anything, I consider that to be a failure on their part. I measure success by the extent to which they practice communism and participate in real movements which totally abolish the present state of things and prefigure wholly new relations. By that metric, even Food Not Bombs has greater claim to communist success than the fucking Soviet Union and every single Party in history. That is because they practice communism and seek to live it as everyday life right now without escapist ventures into remote communes or the eternally deferred communist utopianism found at every Party meeting. The question you should therefore be asking anyone who claims to be a communist or pursuing communism is how they practice communism in their daily lives and facilitate communism around them. That is what matters and that is what communism means as anything more than a utopian idea, no matter how many Party meetings one attends or Party pamphlets one hands out.
>>646576 don't sully Zapata's and Guadalupe Posada's work with your hobo bullshit, schizo
>>646576 Thanks for answering. I read the response later and felt bad that it was too aggressive. >though it had probably been pushed off the thread by now. That's why I asked you way before to start a thread with whatever your theory was, because I wasn't going to be able to read it. But that's fine. I more or less agree with most of what you posted. I still think there's power in organization, which is literally why people organize in the first place. And the claim that zapatistas are leninists is in practice. I don't care what they call themselves. I only care for results. I still don't get how you personally help bring about communism though. We're out here organizing communities. We are surrounded by lifestylist anarchists who preach individualist tactics which always end up running flat. We try to build communities so that people can help each other and together fight the power. I don't see how you can do that without organization, it just seems like pure individualism otherwise.
>it's another first world anarkiddies idolize the E"Z"LN episode bruh I always love seeing the tears and cope when I tell them that >Marcos is a rich white educated man from northern Mexico >Marcos's sister is a member of PRI and has a seat in congress >have sweatshops where they make coffee products and sell them to college hipsters to ""fund the cause"" >violently evict and remove families from their houses if they don't want to be part of their project >ended their revolutionary activities like a week after they started after cucking out to the Mexican government >only own like 6 municipalities in Chiapas, have no plans of expanding If you really wanna own the EVIL tankies and show how anarchism totally works a better example to support would be the PKK or even the autodefensas in Guerrero if you still want to idolize Mexican indigenous people. The E"Z"LN is at best just watered down Sandinismo and at worst a dead end indigenous nationalist project that is going nowhere.
>>643657 It is not idealism because it does not affirm any ideas to be real, it does not treat essence as preceding existence, it does not even essentialise existence, it merely acknowledges that one's path is made based on how one oriented in the world. Just because subjectivity is the interpellation of ideology, that does not therefore mean that the creative nothing cannot break from this subjectification and subject their subjectivity to conscious reshaping. Ideology may be inescapable and subsumes the unconscious, but conscious effort can disrupt these realities. Let me try to communicate this in a way you will understand: consider the self as subject-/idea-producing machine. It takes in inputs (ideology/ideas) and generates outputs (subjectivity/ideas) through its own neuromechanical processes. Without any effort on the part of the machine to disrupt or manipulate or modify this production process, the machine will invariably generate subjectivities which interpellate ideology. If such effort occurs, however, those inputs can be reshaped into new outputs which diverge from dominant ideological subjectivities and indeed can generate non-subjective existences altogether. This does not presuppose a mind separate from matter; it does not even presuppose free will on the part of the machine! It merely explains the material processes whereby ideology generates subjectivities and through it the possibility for altering these processes such that a rupture between subjectivity and ideology can occur (and how non-subjective modes can be altogether produced). Without this, the only way to salvage any notion of communism as a possibility is by merely assuming its deterministic inevitability, which is a vulgar reading of Marx (and, in this case, Althusser). "Individual" fundamentally means that which can no longer be divided. In societies, the individual has not always been the person; in ancient Greek society, for example, the most basic economic unit was the oikos, not each particular Greek. I understand this. What I reject here is that there ultimately are any individuals, especially in this capitalist society, which I take from Deleuze. What this therefore means is that there ultimately is no "boundary that separates from society"; if anything, interpellation itself refutes this.
>>646608 >Marcos is a rich white educated man from northern Mexico This is like cancelling Marx because he's white or Engels because he was rich. Go back to /pol/ or whichever identity political cesspit you came from. Educated yourself or you are not worth the air you breathe. >Marcos's sister is a member of PRI and has a seat in congress Pfff. What the fuck does that even matter? Who is Max Blumenthal's father? Besides, any political figure that wanted to actually be elected before the 90s either was either in the PRI or the literal Nazi sympathizers of the PAN. And, furthermore, you little fucking catholic white boy, the PRI has had multiple tendencies since it's inception. Must I remind you of the extremely based PRI president Lazaro Cárdenas? And if you think there is any major difference between the main parties, you are absolutely deluded. >have sweatshops where they make coffee products and sell them to college hipsters to ""fund the cause"" <making money in a capitalist society is bad <somehow worse when it's to fund the revolution <somehow the worst when they make discounts to leftist urban organizations so that they can sell it to fund their own activities Are you retarded? Or are you just so privileged you didn't know people have to work to gain money? >violently evict and remove families from their houses if they don't want to be part of their project You get put in jail if you don't participate in the capitalist project. Very retarded statement. And who are these people who don't want to be part of their project? Sounds like reactionaries to me. >ended their revolutionary activities like a week after they started after cucking out to the Mexican government Revolution =/= insurrection. They continue their revolution to this day, idiot. Are you even a leftist? You are just making more and more a fool out of yourself. >only own like 6 municipalities in Chiapas, have no plans of expanding What does that even matter? How much land do YOU own, cuck? I bet you're one of those """nationalist""" who owns no part of the nation, and is eager to sell the country to Americans. Mexico has no plans of expanding either, what the fuck does that even demonstrate?? >mention the autodefensas in Guerrero Read the post he's responding to. I explicitly mention the autodefensas, it's the only link in the post. >you want to own the evil tankies Bitch, I am an ML. I recognize the autodefensas and the zapatistas as legitimate leftist movements. I'm not a sectarian LARPer. >idolize Mexican indigenous people I am very much against indigenismo. I've written about this before. BUT I do recognize that they have the right for self-determination and if they want to live in the jungle, that is their decision to make. I wouldn't be surprised if they are on average more happy than urban communities. Life in the city can be fucking hell. If they reject urbanism, I see that as completely legitimate. Again, I'm not an idiot LARPer. Also, the zapatistas are not as indigenistas as they are made out to be. >zapatismo is watered down sandinismo No. Zapatismo is the result of leftist theory (including Emiliano Zapata's legacy as such) and hard earned experience of building indigenous socialism in the Lacandona jungle. The core of "neozapatismo" (ie zapatismo), is the simple idea that comes from Zapata's campaign that the land belongs to those who labor it. The Zapatistas live that day to day, and are not fucking shitposting on a cock and ball origami forum about how the zapatistas were once led by a hhuuuwaaayt male. BRUH
>>644070 >>644356 >>645674 3GD while not being perfect is indeed a wonder of the modern world. It reduced China’s fossil fuel consumption which not only reduced global warming but also air pollution in China, their are some micro cracks in the concrete but these occur in all structures and aren’t a threat to it’s structural integrity, the hoover dam has a lot more and is perfectly fine. That said it hasn’t really reduced flooding to the extent that was once thought it would.
>>646808 >retarded cuckchan method of greentexting sentences and nitpicking shit *yawn* let me see, I don't care how hard they suck the cock of Zapata's (another failed revolutionary hyped up by the PRI government to justify their regime) cock. I only care about the actual results and revolutionary gains they get. They've been "active" for almost 30 years and have accomplished absolutely nothing, not even a self sustained community seeing as they have to send beggars in hipster communities to get fed or remove people form their houses (which you don't care about, fucking racist). I don't give a fuck if you call me sectarian or if I hurt yours or the anarkiddies feelings the EZLN is just a paper thin larp fake revolution. Simple as.
>>646847 >please don't greentext on my profile wew. >The zapatistas didn't achieve world communism, so they are worthless wew. >I won't respond to any of your arguments. wew. >Haven't accomplished anything, except maintained autonomy and sovereignty for 30 years. wew. >muh hipsters *yawn* but also wew. >ur racist shut up, whitey. you're one to talk. >fake revolutionary as opposed to your LARPing ass? Don't make me laugh.
>>646608 >>only own like 6 municipalities in Chiapas, have no plans of expanding they literally expanded their territory last year, retard. also, sources for the sweatshop thing and the eviction accusation would be nice. and the EZLN are not anarchists, btw.
>>640942 tfw no sick crew of well read libertines who actually read hakim bey along withthe marquis de sade foucault lautreamont, burroughs, bataille and mishimna to create a real temporary autonomous zone to shoot heroin and fuck underage boys,
>>646808 >The Zapatistas live that day to day, and are not fucking shitposting on a cock and ball origami forum theyd be a lot cooler if they did
>>645082 >was SJW liberalism getting offended that police killed a black man. >literal racist serial murder by the government is just idpol maaaaan
>>647824 Fuck off to cuckchan where you belong bourgeois decadent https://www.reddit.com/r/Gender_Critical/comments/hggatd/seattle_mayor_does_not_view_domestic_violence_as/ >In her address on June 22, Mayor Jenny Durkan explained that for 911 calls, police were necessary for some responses. But others shouldn't qualify. She suggested that mental health specialists, addiction counselors, and domestic violence counselors were better. Interesting development
>>648049 >literal centuries of oppression, slavery with extra steps and straight up murder is just idpol maaaaaaaan
>>652496 Have you even tried to read the thread dumb /pol/tard?
>>652955 >>652961 >>652968 >>653000 They wouldn’t have gotten shot if they didn’t drive their car into people
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>>641149 This posts commits an intellectual and theoretic error that I believe is equally common amongst Marxists and Anarchists, and is something that will have to be overcome if the Left is to succeed; The conflation of organization and hierachy. It remains clear that the first and foremost error of the CHAZ (beyond, clearly being too small and too isolated to actually be able to create a sustainable autonomous zone) was their disdain for any find of formal organization. No formal structure, even horizontal ones, were established, and thus everything was disorganized and unable to thrive. This is due to the general mistake that organization also inherently means hierarchy, and it is a notion fairly common amogst what is refered to as "life-style" anarchists. Decentralization is an absolute neccesity to a democracy and for the dissulution of unjust hierarchies, but that is not to say that we should be averse to *structure* and formal government. If we do not leave the conflation of organization and hierarchy behind, then we're doomed to either always refuse to organize, or to organize in a hierarchal fashion that will perpetuate fascist structure, regardless of wether or not that hierarchy is proletarian in nature or not.
>>653043 >was their disdain for any find of formal organization Disdain is too strong a word. People there did try to organize, but the volume of people and the sheer accessibility of CHAZ made it very hard to do so.
Never bring any twitter lefties, breadtubers or any other retarded parts of the left when organizing something of this scale
>>653043 >or to organize in a hierarchal fashion that will perpetuate fascist structure, regardless of wether or not that hierarchy is proletarian in nature or not. Largely agree with your comment especially on decentralization being more robust, however this last phrase is an oxymoron
>>653402 I don't hold so. I actually agree with MLs when they claim that the USSR was proletarian in nature. I think it was almost undisputably so, and comparing the Soviet-Bloc with state-run capitalism misses the point. However, I still believe that the failure of soviet socialism was inherent in it's systems, in that it in a sense simply reverted to the kind of primitive Neolithic caste-based socialism that eventually degenerated into slavery. Therefore, I do believe that the socialist experiment in the USSR was entirely sicere, but that ideological faults existed that doomed it to perpetuate heirarchy, and ultimately, decend into capitalism.
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white slavaboo larpers gunned down two teenagers, executing one of them.
>>653444 IT WASNT JUST THE FUFKING SOVIET UNION DAMMIT THE 20th CENTURY WAS THE FIRST WORLD REVOLUTION
>>653499 *States such as the Soviet Union Happy?
>>653025 Source?
>>655134 If you wanna look at info about the CHOP/CHAZ shooting look at the riot thread. As always be careful about disinfo going around and pray that anarkiddies aren't fucking retarded.
>>640942 >why it failed It lacked a strong ideologicaly pure vanguard based around class struggle and did not immediately kick out all forms of idpol from its ranks.
>>640942 It got cleared out this morning. What an absolute fucking embarassment
>>658322 Shame, I will have to find something else to ruthlessly critique now.
>>653493 Is no one gonna comment on this? Twitter is calling this the thing that makes CHOP somehow racist
>>653444 > I still believe that the failure of soviet socialism was inherent in it's systems, in that it in a sense simply reverted to the kind of primitive Neolithic caste-based socialism that eventually degenerated into slavery. What the fuck? Also >hierarchy Explain. You mean buerocracy?
>>641279 we were not tho, it was just twitter libs
>>658333 We talked about it in the riot thread.
lets be real, CHAZ was not anarchistic in any way, because it was a part of the USA, which as you may know, is a state. EZLN and YPS are anarchistic, CHAZ is not. saying CHAZ was why anarchism does not work is like calling Exarcheia anarchist. also, lets not fall to /pol/ propaganda, CHAZ was never meant to be ANY KIND of LEFTIST, it was just a zone with no police, saying it was why any kind of left wing ideology does not work is dumb as fuck. >pic related is Anarchists VS "AnarchoLibs"
>>658368 >lets be real, CHAZ was not anarchistic in any way, because it was a part of the USA, which as you may know, is a state. EZLN and YPS are anarchistic, CHAZ is not. saying CHAZ was why anarchism does not work is like calling Exarcheia anarchist. also, lets not fall to /pol/ propaganda, CHAZ was never meant to be ANY KIND of LEFTIST, it was just a zone with no police, saying it was why any kind of left wing ideology does not work is dumb as fuck. How is it not? How do you prevent increased violence under an anarchist (state? zone?)?
>>658342 Hierarchy is when power is no longer delegated, but either usurped or represented. It does not always imply force and require some degree of complicity, but it always creates structures where the orders come from up above in the structure, rather than travel from down below. It does not take a lot of inquiry into the USSR to realize that a huge proportion of legislation were not ratified at a face-to-face level, but rather ratified at the executive branch. This made the USSR a heirarchal society, albeit one with out classes but instead castes and cliques, and this mirroredthe sumerian societies from whence class originated, initially not being a society of strict class division, until heirarchy allowed class to develop.
Take the bordigapill and accept all your activism is futile. Why can't you just sit in your bedroom and quietly read theory instead of going out to larp as communards?
You could just learn from no police zones that worked like the chapare region in bolivia.
>>658575 Agreed, but in the sense that CHAZ is virtually impossible to learn from as an "autonomous zone" because a place like the Chapare in Bolivia or Rojava or Chiapas Mexico are larger territories that people lived and worked in. CHAZ was a small area in Seattle that most of the people walking through or protesting didn't even live or work in. >>658333 Twitter is retarded, CHOP isn't real. There was no CHOP police force or anything like that. There may have been some people who went there with guns to "protect" the area from "fascists" or whatever, which I don't even have a huge problem with, but there was no real administration of CHOP. The notion that anarchists or even BLM activists as an organized group or whatever established a police force that then shot a black teenager is nonsense. The attempt by the right wing to create that narrative, and the credulous retards on the left wing who took it as a matter of fact and decried "leftists" and "anarchists" and whatever abstract group for their crimes are all projecting fantasies. Which makes it especially aggravating that there are leftists indulging it because it does them no favors to propagate the notion that crazed leftists spontaneously started a police state, as though Stalin's satanic spirit was inevitably summoned once again to create the execution squads wantonly murdering innocent people.
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I'm just going to let people know, that I am a sincere person clicking on this link at this website to try to get more INFORMED about what CAN BE LEARNED from Chaz, on a supposed leftist website, IN A THREAD WHICH IS SUPPOSEDLY ALL ABOUT REVIEW AND REFLECTION on the Chaz... And all I can gather is that Anarchists are retards and that is why the place failed. I shouldn't have to wade through a pile of sludge to reach any INFORMATION and DISCUSSION about how leftist projects organized on what is now THE last free bastion of leftist thought on the open internet. I should just be able to clearly decipher information about the event with no obscuration. I'm glowing to glow out on a whim and say that the introduction of this term, "glow worm" which didn't exist the last time I checked this forum (in its incarnation as 8chan's /leftpol/, the Anarchist subreddit that got taken down by the federal gubbernment), so I don't believe in it. Stop speaking newspeak, moderate the forums, stop spreading sectarianism, and discuss the topics of the OP. There is zero discussion of Anarchist topics online, do you understand? We get shot down every second by sectarian LEFTISTS and it pushes us farther left into post-left "babytality" as you like to call it. Stop alienating us, when there's a topic that calls for discussion, just discuss the topic, don't be an idort, what more else can I say?
>>658687 There is virtually nothing that can be learned except the platitude that “people should organize!!”. CHAZ was a meme. The meme became real (is this what Debord was talking about?) and everybody projected all their weird shit onto the meme. Right wingers wanted it to be a mixture of a gulag, a race jungle, some kind of mad max desert of competing warlords and gangsters, and leftists wanted it to be a functioning commune. I don’t know what liberals wanted, they may have been the most clear headed about it actually and just considered it a case of the city government temporarily abdicating some responsibility for an area, but of course they considered this bad government. Maybe what should be learned is to just not do that? Not indulge in meme warfare so much that everybody gets wrapped up in their internet fantasies of what is actually happening on the ground? This board knew relatively quickly what was happening because within a day or two there were first hand accounts that definitively suggested the name CHAZ was just a joke and there was no coherent organizing or self-governance. But even suggesting that is something to be “learned” feels like we are getting ahead of ourselves, because generally speaking leftism in America is still a disorganized mess of individuals shouting into the void and being carried on waves of social media influencers and trending tweets and shit. Something could be learned if bigger nodes of action and information could be democratically controlled, but the groups that do exist are so small I don’t think anybody really knows off the top of their heads what their line on CHAZ was, if they had one at all, and the whole thing is already over.
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Can we make fun of retards who made memes like this
>>658944 The left failed CHAZ. CHAZ didn't fail the left. Still, CHAZ was a good development.
>>641970 all publicity is good publicity
>>658944 Truly the second best thing a human can experience is being able to say "I told you so"
>>641485 Maybe keep someone at the ready to burn it down in case they don't fall to demands?
>>659025 What's the first?
>>659025 What's the first?
To deny the significance of CHAZ/CHOP would be foolish, but the people who truly believed (for more than 10 minutes) it turn into a proletarian revolution were delusional. I think it mirrored OWS in many ways, and many of the same criticisms and take-aways apply to CHAZ as well. >no clear goals or leadership This is the most glaring for sure, possibly the sole reason for its fizzling. No demands were made, no clear leadership was established (this could be attributed to radlibs and idealistic anarchists). It really did just devolve into a performative, larpy, three week radlib artfest. No tangible accomplishments were made, because no goals or demands were ever set in the first place. >no attempt to expand or fortify The fact that they never tried to expand is puzzling-- they literally put down roots: they started a garden. Community gardens are kind of based, but one only sows when they believe they will be there to reap what they have sown. Unless they just believed the city gov would let it continue indefinitely, they would have made attempts to expand and fortify it. To expect them to have engaged in armed confrontation with the police would be a little much, as they did not have enough traction, and would have ended up as martyrs (and useless ones at that). That being said, they gave up without any sort of fight; even nonviolent means of resistance/evasion could have been utilized, but they just let the police roll them. It's entirely possible they never expected nor intended it to go long term, and the goal was to make it into a three week music festival and performative protest zone; in fact, that is the most likely reason for their lack of resistance. Lack of class character/heavy focus on idpol is not a valid criticism. This sort of argument is one made from a dogmatic, anti-idpol point of view. The protests of the past ~2 months were inherently were inseparable from class. The issues of police terrorism of black people, and the police state as a whole are by their very nature, class issues. Just because the protests weren't explicitly Marxist is not a reason to write them off. This is how class consciousness can be developed in current year-- when people see that peaceful means or aimless rioting are not valid solutions, they will begin to question the larger system and institutions at play. There were multiple parties on the ground in a number of cities, and they are at the forefront of these issues, and rightfully so. Had CHAZ expanded to encompass a larger demographic, it would become more focused on class. As the protests as a whole progressed, they became increasingly more class based. Again, this was evident from the various socialist parties, smaller orgs, and individuals on the ground. I don't know how many of you actually got out of your arm chairs, but if you did you probably saw this. The biggest achievement of CHAZ was that it showed that people aren't afraid to mobilize-- even take over multiple blocks of a major city-- in the name of leftist struggles.
Tbh the funniest part of CHAZ was watching the whole of the US establishment shit itself.
>>659544 >>659545 Playing video games
>>646829 >3GD while not being perfect is indeed a wonder of the modern world. It reduced China’s fossil fuel consumption which not only reduced global warming but also air pollution in China, their are some micro cracks in the concrete but these occur in all structures and aren’t a threat to it’s structural integrity, the hoover dam has a lot more and is perfectly fine. That said it hasn’t really reduced flooding to the extent that was once thought it would. But to a very high cost. It has been controversial since day one. And it is basically a sitting duck from a military POV. And wasn't the first mission in Command & Conquer: Generals a terrorist attack against a chinese dam?
>>640988 /thread
>>661294 did they actually kill them Ok my dick is getting hard
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>>661347 Is this an good twitter follow btw?
>>661294 >>661347 >>661303 They were black teenagers (14 & 16) so pretty doubtful they were fascists.
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>>661303 >>661294 They killed a 16 year old black guy and critically wounded a 14 year old black child, both in the white SUV, under the impression they were right wing terrorists. I don't know what, if anything, gave them reason to believe that or if they were jumpy from previous car attacks and shootings and made an extremely bad call.
>>661399 >made an extremely bad call >"you're not dead huh?" POP Yes extremely bad call, do better next time guys.
>>661396 >>661399 Because they were driving around the place like retards after someone in a similar vehicle was doing drivebys. >>661407 Nice reddit spacing retard, but there was no gunshot.
>>661396 How do you know they weren't HOTEP GANG?
>>661409 Antifa Superstripper is that you?
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>>661399 I was so happy now I'm so sad.
>>661407 I didn't know they said that. Sorry.
Not an american but my impression is that the cops and the media got what they wanted with CHAZ/CHOP. Should have just burnt the precinct and continued protesting instead of trapping themselves in one spot.
>>661414 Cope harder copemonster
>>661421 You are right I will go cope about dead black teenagers like some kind of fag
>>661426 Continue to cope, you mean
>>661418 Any would-be arsonist is pretty much thwarted by the police department being directly adjacent to apartments.
>>661427 yes (please tell me to cope again pls)
>>661439 I don't have to as you are already doing it
>>661444 I can cope harder
How can I summon the nihilism guy to comment on DEAD TEEN black king STORAGE just so I can NOT read the 37 paragraphs he will write?
>>661448 No you can't that's physically impossible.
>>658333 It's a catastrophic failure that massively undermined its legitimacy and gave the state a great excuse to shut it down. I don't know why it happened, but it needs to not.
>>661450 Sure would be a shame if the nihilist poster came and totally derailed this epic "cope harder seethecel" discussion.
What's the deal with the rumours they were sold out anyway? >>640942 Did they have any means to defend themselves once the police re-asserted themselves? Not even LARP level "oh they should've had guns ready to fight to the death for their street" shit, just practical, pragmatic: could they push the police back again? If yes, they should've done so. If no, they should've had those means.
>>661456 watch me
The ”they shot at innocents” is a /pol/-engineered narrative. It could be true, but it was cooked up on /pol/ and it was pushed by /pol/ accounts on social media before it took off. The ”execution” part seems like bullshit, as the ”gunshot” sounds nothing like a gunshot. And clearly the ”fascists fucked around and found out” cooked up by Twitter anarchoids is an entirely fictitous, outrageous, narrative. I’ve seen an account by a self-described medic who provided first aid to them, saying the SUV shot first. On the flipside, the side windows on the SUV were not down. But then the SUV seems to have been stolen to begin with. I also saw an account stating guns from the SUV were taken to the CHOP ”armory”. I’m gonna guess the truth lies somewhere in the mix of two dumb kids out joyriding and popping off shots, people being on edge from the earlier shootings, and ”CHOP security” being retard adventurists and romantics.
>>640942 >what can be learned? That leftism especially communism is fake and gay all of you are retards sperging for vested capitalist/establishment interests. Fuck black kings Kikes Spics Slopes Tankies and most of all fuck jannies.
so the private security that shot up the car on Monday was private security that was hired by the store owners in the area. nothing to do with chop at all. Once again everyone that seized on and propagated the first story they heard turn out to be doing cointel work for free. Who is apologizing? who is ready to say "I won't do it again"?
>>661466 Given the number of times its been declared dead only to still be there I'm half expecting it to still be there at this point with reports of its death being hype ngl
>>661475 Wait what? PROOFS???
>>661480 it got cleared by the cops yesterday supposedly
>>661475 You are right, all is right with CHOP when teenagers get shot "I ran out of bullets HAHAHAHAHAH"
>>661473 Right wing is really good at cooking false narratives and the "left" takes it at its face value. "The pink haired commies" narrative comes to mind, I've never met a communist(Part of actual parties, not larping tards) who looked like that.
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We need to put a moritorium on CHAZ/CHOP shit. These threads are literally nothing but spastic autists shrieking while drowning out anybody who actually wants to discuss what happened.
>>661507 >I've never met a communist(Part of actual parties, not larping tards) who looked like that. how to cope: a leftypol post
>>661518 put your flag back on then nihilist fag
>>661521 Rent free.
>>661520 Actually consider hanging out with actual leftists instead of your friends on /pol/.
>>661521 the nihlist poster stopped posting because TOR was banned
>>661475 >so the private security that shot up the car on Monday was private security that was hired by the store owners in the area. Think about the irony of this. This means that now chaz is free of guilt only because someone within this communist utopia created a police force lol and the antifa superstripper is literally defending cops for shooting a black kid. Nigga this is some different level shit. >nothing to do with chop at all. Nothing to do with the fact that someone in this cop free zone created a police force >Once again everyone that seized on and propagated the first story they heard turn out to be doing cointel work for free. >Who is apologizing? who is ready to say "I won't do it again"? The sad fact is that whatever the real truth is is going to be more devastating and embarrassing than anything anybody can make up.
>>661521 He at least used to post something other than "cope", "seeth".
>>661532 Actually he moved to /dead/.
>>661521 M8, I want a thread where people actually try to sort through all the shit instead of screaming AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAH AHAHAHAHHA HAHAH AH HA HAHAHA HAH HA HAH LOOK AT THESE TWITTER SCREENSHOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 It's the type of fucking /pol/ tier cancer that's been killing this board slowly
>>661532 lol why does he think he needs TOR, he lives in fucking Seattle
>>661548 Why would you not assume they're /pol/
>>661546 because tor is only banned on leftypol. other boards still work
>>661533 There has been no evidence presented that the shooters were ”hired by the store owners”. Inclined to think it’s bullshit.
>>661611 Get a load of comrade proofs over here.
>>661611 where's the proof they were hired by chaz? surely you're not just repeating something you saw a twitter account claim?
CHAZ was the culmination of everything wrong with the immature online left. A bunch of childish snowflakes who took the slogans and hot takes too seriously and who just do whatever the cool rebellious thing seems like at the moment. Anyone with any amount of sense should have known that even if everything had gone smoothly nothing would have been accomplished. We desperately need a left led by adults, not weird online personalities and their fanboys.
>>661409 >Because they were driving around the place like retards after someone in a similar vehicle was doing drivebys. We're just adopting police justification tactics now, that's what I call Dialectics™
>>661635 Huh? Did you mean to say ”CHAZ shop owners” or what? Because that’s what I mean, that no evidence has been provided to the claim that the shooters were store security.
Protestors are back at it again, clashing with police, and facing mass arrests. What do you recommend in times like these?
>>641021 >the only exception funnily enough to this so far seem to be what the liberals (and cryptoliberals calling themselves democratic or libertarian socialists) call authoritarian socialism. I dunno, I see a lot of bluechecks, journos, and adjacent media people on Twitter who were big Warren boasters pretending to be MLs and Maoists, or at least adopting aspects of their aesthetic and critique. Guillotine/gulag/KILL ALL LANDLORDS!!1 language seems to be increasingly popular with people in this sphere. This stuff literally gets write-ups in NYMag like it's a fashion trend (it is). It's totally disingenuous, but it goes to show you that anything can be co-opted. In fact, certain militant left ideas can even be vulgarized and distorted in such a way that they can be used quite effectively to attack socialists who center class, such as accusing them of workerism, social fascism, etc. You also have to take into account that Twitter and the internet in general has broken people's brains and few people possess the ability to think critically about anything. You can pretty much get away with saying anything.
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>>663209 AHHH!! PREDICTIVE PROGRAMING!
>>641923 >These are the type of people that moo on and on about trans rights, while wearing shirts made by children, sleep in homes and eat veggies build and picked by undocumented immigrants Literally "you criticize system yet you have iphone".
>>661664 And I imagine you're up to the task of being the American Lenin, right anon?
I suggest that everyone listens to this episode. (There isn't any CLATTERING with ice cubes.) https://redscarepodcast.libsyn.com/china-chalet-autonomous-zone The most sad part is when the talk about the two kids who got shot. So instead of unarmed blacks are shot by the formal police, they are shot by the informal police. The funniest part was when they said that renaming CHAZ into CHOP is like some tech geeks first deciding what their logo should look like instead of comming up with a business plan. The most poignant part was when they said that the street painting of "BLM" (the one right in the middle of the street) was in an affluent. Thereby dodging the question of what race and class the janitors etc are. (Free after my memory.)
Alt right dipshits are in Seattle instigating, macing people, firing shots in the air, and doing the sieg heil today.
>>646863 >please Don’t insult my noble indios, they’re twying their best UwU The zapatistas are a fucking joke that went for too long. Love when western anarkiddies love to project their dreams into them
>>666992 Literally who?
>>667006 They haven't released his name, clearly this is a big shot. The rightoid news are just calling him a leader for propaganda purposes.
>>666992 >internet communists No serious communist actually took chaz seriously. The fact that you associate us with them is fault of the retarded true believers in that liberal shitshow and the jannies who banned anyone who disagreed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzRjsVaqREI[Embed] >NFAC at Stone Mountain GA were the KKK was found. 🔴⚫🟢 The black militia.
>>666992 >The leader of CHAZ Ah. The infamous hacker Anonymous.
What can be learned is we all need to get organized around class politics weather that be in the form of radical unionism or party politics. The issue with chaz was a lack of socialist organization.
>>667182 >2 people get run over by a crazed idiotic burger. <Ian Miles chong >The same people who want to abolish the police. You are literally advocating killing people who are speaking up against the brutalism of the system and yet you are the one calling us "preachy" that is hilarious.
Bans don't really work mods nice try though. also I guess showing the reality of the silent widespread sentiment that people hold for you righteous little gremlins is too much for your fragile little egos and totally FASHIST MAAAHHHN >>667192 >ur literally figuratively akshully It's funny how the group of people in favor of disbanding the police who couldn't manage governing six city blocks for a couple of weeks, had heavily armed 'people's police' who killed blacks at a faster rate than the actual police, bullied and harassed anyone who they simply thought lacked support, were too inept to stop a variety thefts assaults and rapes that happened on their watch, tell other normal people what they should do and how they should govern. You guys suck at governing, have caused damage to regular uninvolved people, and constantly talk about what should be done and what's best for everyone MAAAHHHNNN You want want to know what would be best for the people of Seattle who just want to get on with their fucking lives? Having people like you beaten into a coma so at least your neet ass can't fuck with normal productive citizens anymore Yes you no longer breathing would be a net positive for the country , Also if you want to criticize someone for making fun of a Marxist getting played out by a ducking patriot maybe don't write shit like "kill do poles XxDD" It just makes you look like a hypocrite
https://mobile.twitter.com/kenningtonsays/status/1279343556629577733 Here's the Twitter vid the mods are too scared to have anyone see Communists fucking with traffic getting layed out by a citizen who's just about fucking had it with their bullshit
imagine spending all day posting about CHAZ
>advocating killing people No I'm not I'm showing what the country thinks of you Also mods why did you delete the post by the anon who literally said "we should kill the police"? >>667192
>>667226 Our brave comrade who died trying to bash the fash
>>667226 >Communists Radlibs. If they were communists, they would understand that it's called class WAR for a reason. Protesters can't admit to themselves that this is war, so good riddance to them
>>667226 >>667560 >>667696 To b honest it kinda looks more like a accident, if you go frame by frame over the video you can see the car "body roll" heavily to one side which indicates aggressive steering away from most of the people.
>>667732 I think it was accidental too. Doesn't he hit the brakes? The guy probably wanted to go for a joyride in his sports car, expecting the road to be empty, and created a tragic situation.

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