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/QTDDTOT/ V Anonymous 05/30/2020 (Sat) 18:03:28 No. 548092
Questions That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread: Part Five What do you call a central planning democratic socialist? Alternate question; Is a Eurocommunist after the call of the USSR just a demsoc?
this place is filled with Marxists, is there any place like this but more anarchist? its not like i want to leave this place, just that id like to see more anarchist every now and then
>>548092 Eurocommunists were always socdems EU is an imperialist project and an abomination it needs to be torn down
>>548264 >>530708 this is why i want to move somewhere else, i can never get a proper response to a question, all i get is "muh anarkitty" also i am actually in special ed so this is not even a good insult, its just true
>>548092 >What do you call a central planning democratic socialist? An ML? Democratic centralism is at the core of ML theory.
>>548486 thank you anon
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>>548253 I miss 0ch
>>548564 Every time anyone says something like you did: >I don't like eternal fight between [Leftist ideological denomination 1] and [Leftist ideological denomination 2], we need to all do [Leftist ideological denomination 3]. I slowly lose my will to live. Fuck ideologies. All that matters is policy, which, for the wast majority of all posters, no matter their denomination, mostly agree upon. Creating a new and hip denomination just make everyone else hostile to you.
>>548588 >Fuck ideologies. All that matters is policy what policies you support shape your ideology
>>548624 oof what? whats wrong?
>>548415 No but I meant like actual democracy.
>>548575 I really think you're overestimating the significance of the 'bunkers' meme, if anything it's more making fun of ML than supporting it
>>548588 While I might've been a bit too reductive in my descriptive category ("libertarian communism"), I'm more thinking of this as >I don't like eternal fight between [Leftist ideological denomination 1] and [Leftist ideological denomination 2], we need to all do [Leftist theoretical synthesis]. I'm not necessarily implying that it's in order to arrive at [Ideology X], but to instead serve as a less overtly ideological space than has been tried so far by our own chans, kind of like how /leftypol/ was at its peak of usage pre-BO spergout (being the first move towards ideological sectarianism). I'm imagining that the space would be inhabited by a wide array of "ideologies" that find themselves between the gridlock (ancom v tankism), such as libertarian Marxists, De-Leonists, platformists, council communists, left-communists, Luxemburgists, certain Leninists and Maoists and probably "cybercoms". The uniting point would be a rejection of insurrectionary anti-organizationalism, socdemism, state-capitalism and "socialist" commodity production, "Socialism in One Country" and the right-wing degeneration that constantly follow that foundation (Khurushevism, Dengism, Xiism, Doi-Moi, Raul Castro). Maybe a more precise wording for the framework I have in mind would be 'proletarian communism'.
What does /leftypol/ think about warsaw pact style mandatory army training? Should we bring it back? Btw, bommers here miss it the most from all things communist.
>>548787 No, national service is fascist. If the state can't rally people to its own defence voluntarily then it doesn't deserve to survive.
>>548818 What about the training tho? Better have skilled proles with guns rather than gun virgins.
>>548834 If the state is not socialist, then it's a moot point cause they won't want to arm the people, and if the state is socialist, it's also a moot point because there's no real need for revolutionaries.
Why is the official title of Sri Lanka the "Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka". Whats the history behind that?
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were they based?
>>548092 1. I’m at chapter 7 in Das Kapital And I’ve been learning a lot but it seems like I’m getting everything. Is there any study guides or videos you’d recommend that help me understand the concepts? 2. How was the US left separated from US labor? I know part of the reason was the new deal stealing the thunder from the left but if someone could explain the whole thing in more detail that would be great. 3. Why doesn’t US leftypol users form a group if no communist/socialist party is to their liking?
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>>557586 >3. Why doesn’t US leftypol users form a group if no communist/socialist party is to their liking? No theory I think there's too much jargon The point of a workers movement is to analyse where the levers are that can be used to squeeze capitalism either for better working conditions/wages, control over parts of the means of production or when the conditions arise to squeeze out capitalism all-together. There has to be a feedback loop that puts theory into praxis and then the result from that praxis has to feed back into new theory. You'd have to be extremely talented and lucky to plan and execute an insurrection from scratch.
>>557586 >Is there any study guides or videos you’d recommend that help me understand the concepts? Honestly the best way to understand the concepts in Capital is just to read the book and take a lot of notes, thinking critically about what you read and, if you find something that doesn't make sense, write down a question that you can look at later. If you read secondary sources, commentaries, or study guides, it will just make your work that much harder by having to read double the amount of text. Finally, I've looked at a number of commentaries and study guides and a lot of them seem either superfluous or outright wrong in their presentation of Marx's ideas. David Harvey's Companion in particular struck me as just unnecessary verbiage that doesn't help explain anything to a new reader. Another thing to bear in mind is that Marx's Capital was a multi-volume work that was never completed during his lifetime. You should have questions when reading the work. That said, Marx's ideas are usually not too difficult to understand and he has a habit of repeating his argument in different forms in order to explain more fully - which can be confusing if you think you understood the first argument. I'll share some old discussion archives of Marx's Capital in another post. >2. How was the US left separated from US labor? I know part of the reason was the new deal stealing the thunder from the left ... US labor was basically defeated in metapolitical terms. Economically, the US began to break down its barriers to international trade such as tariffs which allowed investors to send industry abroad then import the goods for sale in the US market without facing steep taxes, allowing them to bypass things like labor laws and having to pay higher wages to US workers. There was resistance to this, but ultimately US labor was completely unable to stop what happened. This out-maneuvering of labor forced US workers to basically take whatever the employers were willing to give them, meaning stagnating (or in many cases declining) real wages + the loss of a decent standard of living for younger workers. In addition to that, there was an entire campaign of ideological attacks on labor such as bogus "economics" that supported neoliberal policies and deregulation of markets. The remaining left became defined primarily by cultural issues and identity politics rather than class, which was now taboo. >Why doesn’t US leftypol users form a group if no communist/socialist party is to their liking? There have been attempts to "organize" different things with leftypol users but none of them have really worked.
Here's the old discussion thread for Capital from 8chan: https://archive.fo/ChAE5 This is Brendan Cooney's website about Capital: https://kapitalism101.wordpress.com/ This was a series of discussion threads about Capital on r/stupidpol: http://archive.fo/GQcZ1 - Introduction http://archive.fo/FV1MX - Ch1 and 2 http://archive.fo/R9eQV - Ch3 http://archive.fo/AytsL - Ch1, 2 and 3 http://archive.fo/rBJev - Ch4, 5, and 6 http://archive.fo/8YiPE - Ch7 and 8 http://archive.fo/Sqcsb - Ch9 and 10 http://archive.fo/XkMri - Ch11 http://archive.fo/lCILB - Ch 12, 13 http://archive.fo/7TSlR - Ch 14, 15 http://archive.fo/CrMKk - Ch 19 http://archive.fo/ohJsB - Ch 20 http://archive.fo/KulLw - Ch21, 22, 23 http://archive.fo/jjvXR - Ch24
>>548564 0chan went through numerous iterations but at its most noteworthy under n1x was intended to be a post-left safe haven from /leftypol/ (which as far as anarchist theory goes, is about as interesting as it gets).
How likely are the scenarios this paper is putting to happen? It seems pretty gloomy >Climate change projections are increasingly alarming as they become more accurate by, for example, refining the effects of sunlight reflected by clouds as the earth warms, and modifying projections using past warming events to calibrate the interactions among CO2, temperature, sea level rise, and feedback effects.2 Brown and Caldeira (2017) suggest that there is a 93 % change that temperature increases will exceed 4 °C by the end of this century. A report by the World Bank (2012 p. xiii) warns: >. The IPCC optimistic scenarios (RCP2.6, RCP4.5) assume not yet feasible geoengineering schemes to remove atmospheric CO2....It seems unlikely that the policies required to keep warming at manageable levels will be implemented in time to avoid catastrophic climate change >Agriculture was impossible in the past because of climate/weather instability and it is likely to again be impossible if similar conditions return. Increased climate volatility could occur quite soon heres the paper https://mahb.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Our-Hunter-Gatherer-future.pdf
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Can someone answer my question at >>>/roulette/1898
Does anyone have a beginners theory list with links to physical copies?
>>553289 maybe at the beginning. However, what good for workers did they even accomplish?
>>557586 David Harvey is very nice old man Tells about capital and is sooth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBazR59SZXk
I think you guys have the most accurate picture of the global elite since there are also rich whites subverting the world, it's not just Jews, even though they are their own group who are also subverting the world. I personally can't agree with totalitarian governments as the answer, but i'm an idiot when it comes those topics, i've only listened to the communist manifesto on audio book once. There are a lot of apocalypse theories about global governments (like in the bible), and you guys seem to encourage that. Regardless if it's Hitler's white new world order or a communist global government, There is going to be a global government that will go against us.
>>573654 Thanks anon, you should know that besides the mega autists we don't actually want totalitarian government though. Socialism is supposed to be democratic and worker-owned.
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>>573654 First of all capitalist systems are far more totalising than any of the communist systems ever were, Just consider how far into your personal life capitalism has intruded... What usually is referred to when people are talking about "totalitarian" is about how open or close systems are. Most communist systems did not allow lobbying effort from outside and hence are considered closed while most capitalist countries do allow outside lobbying efforts and hence are considered open. If you want to develop a country that is behind in international comparison you need to have a closed system or else other more powerful countries will make you their bitch. Once your capacities have increased enough so that this cant happen any-more you can open your system up. If you look at democracy the communist countries never really managed to implement a good version, consider that capitalist democracies are rather limited as well, you know how all the private businesses where most people spend large parts of their lives are not democratic at all. Now when considering a democracy one has to look at the principle flaw: In a democracy a small group of people can steal from the majority as long as each member of that majority has a loss that is small enough to not care and over time a minoritarian accumulator group can nickel and dime society and gather enough wealth to be able to fund corruption and bribe efforts to gain power, that's how quite a lot of the global elites have risen to power. In 20th century communist countries their strategy was to have a vanguard whose job is was to catch these people before they got powerful enough to bend the system to their ends. This did work to a considerable extend. The level of wealth that got redistributed to elites was very small, but the system had problems replicating this ability, and eventually quite a lot of socialist systems fell apart and new elites formed when they sold out half the wealth these societies had created. So in order to no longer have elites rise up and then sell out. We are going to implement a lottery system, where the people deciding over political matters are drawn by lot, in such a manor that they represent a statistically representative sample of society. This way no new elites can form because they would need to beat the odds of the lottery system. These people would have a limited time in political power and since they will have to return back to becoming ordinary citizens aft-wards they will have a strong incentive to not fuck over the rest of society. The way politics function is that you have to convince most people in society so that the people that are drawn via lottery have been convinced by something, this means that political campaigns will be about issues and not personalities. We doo need global organisations though, because countries are not completely separated, if your country dumps enough toxic sludge into the ocean the beaches in my country will become toxic as well and we can't just try to solve such issues in a way where i drive my naval fleet over to your toxic sludge dump operations and threaten to protect my beaches by bombarding your shores. We are going to need stakeholder organisation to manage the commons of the planet, For example a ocean conservancy organisation that requires countries that have a stake in the ocean to join an and pay dues to fund an organisation that protects their interests as well as all the interests of other countries that also have a stake in the ocean. Not all of these stake holder operations will be about the entire planet, consider for example rivers that go through dry countries , where the upstream countries might take out too much water so that the downstream country could be provoked into a water war, and so one in this case there would be a stake holder organisation that includes all the countries through which the river flows they will pay due in order to manage their river commons. For another example at some point it might become possible to develop sophisticated bio-weapons and in order to make bio-tech development safe, we will have to create a research commons that monopolizes all the talented people in order to develop bio-weapons and produce counter measures and all the countries will pay dues into bio-tech safety organisation to be able to get access to a stock-pile of counter measures. This organisation will have to operate for a time at high capacity in order to find all the avenues for weapons an develop a huge arsenal of countermeasures that are then spread all over the planet so that what ever malicious actors do exist will never have the research capacity to outcompete the bio-tech safety commons. The principle of these commons organisations is to pre-empt potential conflicts between countries, in order to avoid global elites stuffing their pockets by playing countries against each other.
What was different in the liberalization of post-Mao China which didn't collapse compared to the USSR? Could it be that political and economic liberalization done together is just a recipe for disaster coming from a DotP?
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>>574479 >What was different in the liberalization of post-Mao China which didn't collapse compared to the USSR? Could it be that political and economic liberalization done together is just a recipe for disaster coming from a DotP? Well not really, that's not the generalisation you can make. China liberalised very slowly/incrementally and they did not yield any ground on strategical sectors. They kept the state sector in a economic steering role, they still have 5 year plans. China did not implement neo-liberal doctrine like Russia did, neo-liberal doctrine doesn't work under any conditions.
>>574391 Wow, that effort post, thank you for the explanation.
>>548253 masochist
what actually is a radlib?
>>579696 someone who thinks they are radical and may even call themselves left wing but actually holds the deeply reactionary views of liberalism. Basically the hollywood liberal stereotype, like jane fonda or something
>>579696 In theory someone that calls himself a communist but is in reality a liberal But in praxis a meaningless slur
>>579726 Also applies to academics who just love to emphasize the importance of "intersectionality" and "multidisciplinarity"
>>579696 A menshevik
Reposting my question from the last thread. I'm writing a paper examining the differences between Trotskyist and ML assessments of fascism. Does anybody have any literature relevant to this topic? Any Trotskyist or ML literature on fascism is welcome, as well as anything examining the debate between the two as a whole.
can someone recommend me a good documentary that would particularly helpful to watch if i am in a mood where i am feeling like i hate all of humanity?
Just for the sake of a hypothetical, what would happen if some major companies made a sudden switch to a cooperative business model? Not some small-scale farm or coffee shop either, i'm talking about something like Mcdonald's or Amazon or Google. What would happen if, for instance, Mcdonald's made an immediate global switch to a cooperative business model? Would it be more or less efficient since it's a global company? Would investors get pissed?
>>579797 Thanks. I'm currently working my way through Togliatti's "Lectures on Fascism" which is an ML work, but I'll move onto your recommendations soon.
>>579783 Pdf related is a standard ML work on fascism. And I believe "The Fascist Offensive" by Dimitrov was the most popular and historic ML text on fascism.
i was interested in making a zizek discord group but then i learned if i make a discord group and someone joins and posts fucked up or illegal shit then i am responsible. is there any other way to connect with others with a common interest? i tried the leftypol matrix chat and it seemed like no one was in the chat room. thanks
>>580695 you have to wait bro, the riot chat doesn't have post history.
You guys ever wonder what would have happened if Zizek became president of Slovenia?
>>580760 everything I've seen and read of Zizek tells me his government would probably end up like Syrizia because of his belief in the EU as the only force in the world dedicated to the project of the enlightenment, even if it is liberal. He'd be just another Yanis Varoufakis, with whom he probably shares the most politics with.
I read somewhere that a US government official was impressed by Mao's handling of Han chauvinism and drew parallels to black racism, any sources?
>>579862 investors would get pissed as they would no longer have any power. The company might find it difficult to expand by selling shares, as they would be effectively worthless. However, I've heard that the really big companies are large enough to finance their own expansion without issuance of shares, so idk
>>548564 go to anarchist spaces and encourage entryism into /leftypol/
>>548564 >muh tankie boogeyman Every fucking time
In "on the origin of the family, private property and the state", engels says people in the old world herded livestock, which brought us to to more farmable land upon which we grew fodder for livestock, which evolved into grains we fed ourselves (if I'm reading correctly). Can anyone verify this for me, and does anyone know what people would have eaten alongside livestock in this middle barbarian stage?
>>548757 He feels bullied so he has to come up with insane narratives. Pity the online anarchoid
>>548564 >>548764 Babbie's first dialectics
I've noticed that Gonzaloites use the term "principally Maoist" to refer to themselves, as in "Marxist-Leninist-Maoist, principally Maoist". What does this mean? Did the shining path regard themselves as "principally Maoist" or is this some moniker made up entirely by western Mautists?
>>582083 please respond
Is the John Rawls's redistribution model usefull in any way for a leftist thought? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNYoXi9cVOc
When did the US right wing transformed into people crying about jews, immigranta, feminism, etc? They all seem like eternal crybabies
If the richer get richer and the poor get poorer, how can it be that the tendency of rate of profit is to fall?
Does anyone here have anything I can read to deepen my understanding of the Bilderberg group?
What do the IMF and world bank do differently?
>>586697 >If the richer get richer and the poor get poorer, how can it be that the tendency of rate of profit is to fall? In order to profit capitalists have to first invest, profitability crisis always comes from a prior drop in investment Wealth concentrations tend to be accompanied to by falling reinvestment and lower profit rates. Upward redistribution of wealth doesn't actually help the profit rate, it damages human capital which will reduce the profit rate. So basically it causing less investment which will lower future profit rates and it damages human capital which reduces current profit rates.
Why did the Nazis call themselves socialist and why do people still believe they're socialist to this day?
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Was pol pot really as bad as people say he was? I noticed that while many anons here defend north korea or china or russia or other countries infamous, or at least in america, nobody ever really defends pol pot.
>>589359 Pol pot was in the CIA payroll so thats why
Why did Fidel Castro change his mind on LGBT issues and machismo? He went from marginalizing these people through most of the 20th century to turning around in the 90's and by the 2000's Cuba was a hub of trans pride parades. Any books on this?
>>589387 It's called progress
>>589394 Sure but I'd like details on the process
>>589359 >Was pol pot really as bad as people say he was? Yes. The Khmer Rouge completely devastated the country, in the process killing around 25% of the population.
>>589387 He became a liberal, just like Mandela >>589394 """"""""""progress"""""""""""
>>589421 Low effort
>>589387 >Why did Fidel Castro change his mind on LGBT issues and machismo? He went from marginalizing these people through most of the 20th century to turning around in the 90's and by the 2000's Cuba was a hub of trans pride parades. Any books on this? 20th century gays: "Us vs the breeders" -> Communist ears = no workerino talk ? not interested ! after the 90s gays: "can we be part of the collective ?" -> Communist ears = like music , welcome aboard.
>>589359 No, he wasn’t. The western powers paint him as a demon to hide the fact that they were the cause of the hell that went on at Indochina. >>589372 The US supported the Khmer Rouge when Vietnam invaded them, out of obvious opposition to Vietnam. But to say the CIA put Pol Pot in power is nonsense, especially given that he overthrew a US-backed government and executed people who were on the CIA payroll. >>589419 The country was already devastated when the Khmer Rouge came to power. US dropped more bombs on Cambodia than on Japan during WW2, killing up to hundreds of thousands, displacing millions of people and leaving the country on the brink of famine. Check this out for sources http://www.bannedthought.net/International/RIM/AWTW/1999-25/PolPot_eng25.htm
Yeah, the Khmer Rouge sucked. We don't defend them because they were bad, and also not marxist at all. Depopulating cities, trying to revert to an agrarian economy, anti industrialization is NOT MARXIST.
>>589409 Among other things, he volunteered to go into the work camps for gays HIMSELF, UNDERCOVER, and saw that they were shitty and closed them. I wish this was more known about cause it's fucking badass.
Pol Pot actually achieved true communism, whoever tells you otherwise is, first and foremost an urbanite therefore counter revolutionary and second brainwashed by western propaganda
>>589731 Why do you keep posting this when you've been responded to multiple times? We don't feel bad for this guy, he got what was coming. Also there isn't even any evidence he was a suicide.
>>589691 They were still revolutionaries who fought against imperialism, that makes them worthy of support in my books
>>589764 >nazis systematically exterminate millions i sleep >antifa bully a nazi online for espousing genocide and he cant take the bantz and kills himself REAL SHIT???
>be right winger >kill yourself Many such cases, at least he didn't go into a murder spree like most of these tards when they snap
Does anything as minarcho-comunism exists or everyone just calls it classical marxism?
>>589814 'minarcho' feels like just a useless political term to me, because everyone's idea of 'limited government' is completely different (and oftentimes not even internally consistent) but theoretically a communist state would have 'the minimal government needed'
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>>589691 Peasant populism. In some ways more similar to some forms of peasant anarchism seen early in the 20th century including Russia. >>589731 People die everyday at the hands of the cops. Before that happened a Nazi ran his car into a crowd and killed a woman at that rally he was at. Why should we have any sympathy for him? His kind never gave it, and we never asked for it. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/05/19c.htm
>>579726 Can you explain what you mean by reactionary views? what makes something reactionary?
What does /leftypol/ think of feminism, in it's best and worst definitions?
No one answers any of my questions in here
>>590877 Best way to get a response is attacking some group of people with a meme flag, people are only motivated by petty arguments
>>590083 if by feminism you mean equality between men and woman it is obviously a good thing, i dont think there is a best or worse definition, which one should be used depends on context
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>>590083 feminism is the struggle against patriarchy not for ecquality
>>590920 the fuck do you think patriarchy is, nigga?
So I'm trying to understand the differences between a proper planned economy and state capitalism; basically people here many times talk about a "profit motive" as a defining factor of state capitalism, where the state owns most if not all of the MoP however they still operate those businesses as a corporation would operate them, except here the state acts as one huge monopoly. Is this what state capitalism is? How does it differ from a socialist planned economy? What do people mean when they say the planned economy operates without a profit motive and only to serve society? If you guys have any info on this, any text which talks about the soviet economy for example (preferably not that long) please post it or if you could give me a quick explanation, I'd really appreciate it.
>>590935 the ussr had a lot of outdated factories that werent closed cause firing workers without finding them another job is antisocialist ,this is the difference
>>590877 whats your question anon >>590083 Define feminism
>>590940 Ok that makes sense but I'm talking more about how the economy functioned, not so much labor relations/rights
>>590920 >>590919 isn't feminism idpol?
>>548092 I'm probably not understanding something, but if a company went fully automated with no more human labor, wouldn't it no longer face the problem of the falling rate of profit? They would just keep selling their product while only paying for upkeep of the machines.
>>596506 No you're right, that's what would happen. Ofc to completely stop the falling rate of profit worldwide most if not all companies/businesses would have to be fully automated.
What is the most obscure communist country?
>>598386 Granada by far
>>598393 Also interesing (at least to me) it was the only socialist country to have english as one of its official languages.
Do cryptocurrencies have any place in a socialist economy or perhaps a pseudo-socialist economy?
>>597055 Would that then still lead to a collapse since there would be no consumers to buy anything since there are no wages paid?
A frequent line used by anti-communists; please address this: >“There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But Communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience.” https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm
>>598800 What was the freedom and justice in Roman slave societies? If anything capitalism has abolished morality in favor of profit.
>>598808 Only (eh) something like a quarter of people in the Roman Empire were slaves, the rest were probably subject to some sort of fairness in courts. Also this particular quote is about communism, please don't say "capitalism is immoral too", because what the actual argument is, is that Marx admitted that communism is anti-morality and truth. What exactly did he actually mean though?
>>598830 Oh I thought you were quoting rightoids but that is Marx paraphrasing the arguments of anti-communists in his own time. In any case Marx is saying in that passage that anticommunists object to communism because it is so revolutionary it ruptures the "moral fabric" of traditional society, that it does away with traditions it doesn't have any moral basis for its new society, which is contrary to previous societies which, despite having conflicts, all shared a certain traditional moral basis. But Marx is saying that the commonality in previous societies is not in a shared tradition but in class conflict in the base of their society, and that the reactionaries ignore this because it's in their class interest to concern troll about religion, justice, truth, etc. because communism means they lose their class power. Communism means the disappearance of these ideas. He doesn't really go into a lot of detail about why this isn't necessarily bad though, because this is the Communist Manifesto which is intended to be a shorter pamphlet or something. In any case Marx is quoting reactionaries and preempting their "bourgeois" arguments about their appeals to tradition as a defense of their class positions.
>>598622 Trotskyism is not Marxism-Leninism. They're two different things historically. M-L means Stalin's line. Stalinism is usually considered a pejorative term between MLs. Trotsky called himself and his followers Bolshevik-Leninists.
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>>598393 Grenada may have been small but it was still significant for having been invaded by the US, on top of having significance by being a potential military depo and hub for sending help to other socialist countries in the region. As for states which were actually communist in ideology and not merely socialist-aligned or calling themselves "socialist", it would probably be Togo or South Yemen. South Yemen doesn't even exist anymore, and it didn't really do anything, and similarly most people don't really know about the existence of Benin, which is made further obscure by its small size. With countries like Ethiopia at least there was the Derg, the overthrow of an ancient monarchy, on top of the country having lots of people -- that, and it was a flashpoint of conflict between the USSR and China in the Ogaden War with Somalia, where China sided with Somalia just because Ethiopia, which Somalia was at war against, was supported by the USSR. Many people don't know that the Republic of the Congo, Angola, or Mozambique were communist either, but they're at least a lot larger, more populous, have more resources, and just overall generally more significant than Benin or South Yemen.
>>599481 >Trotskyism is not Marxism-Leninism. They're two different things historically. M-L means Stalin's line. Stalinism is usually considered a pejorative term between MLs. Trotsky called himself and his followers Bolshevik-Leninists. I knew this already, I'm more interested in how this is connected to Mao and his democratic supplementation of ML with the Mass Line, seemingly applying the criticism Trotsky levied, but behind the canon laid by Stalin, through ML... Do you see how this appears very confusing?
>>598386 Cape Verde
>>599889 Check the final page of Stalin's Short Course to allay your confusion comrade
>>600570 How communist were they? Was it a communist state, or just a country that had a communist ruling party for a while? This article doesn't have it listed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_state
>>600666 It was ruled originally by the African Party for the Independence of Guinea and Cape Verde, which was a Marxist Leninist party and it was a one party state, but following the 1980 coup in Guinea-Bissau the Cape Verdean wing of the party split off and seceded from Guinea, they kept the one party Marxist Leninist model going in the state until 1990 when they, like some other ML African parties like MPLA and FRELIMO, chose social democracy and multi-party elections.
What are some instances of capitalists materially supporting fascists? Is there anything else besides some Ludwig von Mises quote where he just says fascism is better than socialism?
>>548092 TEACH ME THE WAYS TO TAKEDOWN CONSERVATIVE CLASS CUCKED BOOMERS QUICKLY AND EFFECTIVELY. I don't want to debate them or anything and I don't want to call them a nigger faggot and get banned. I need a fast working method or tips to destroy them.
One of my parents is a teacher, pretty actively involved in union organizing, comes from a very blue collar family, etc. Although not versed in leftist theory or anything, I credit some of my current politics from growing up in that enviroment. That being said, her big take away from these recent uprisings has been to read White Fragility. She has begun reffering to herself, me, and the rest of the family as "oppressors," and everytime we talk on the phone has been pushing me to read the book. I know she is well meaning and just trying to make sense of the very apparent injustices- but this seems counterproductive. Are there any books/articles you guys would recomend to a well meaning "normie" that put things thru a less idpol lense?
I remember there was a poster here (can't remember which thread) who was talking about how the Stasi had some plans which on paper would've completely changed the outcome of the events which ended the DDR in 89. I can't remember if he just mentioned that or got into more detail but if you're that anon or someone else and you happen to know about this please post whatever info you have or just what you know about this, I'd really appreciate it.
Nuclear take: If ML and MLM is (oldschool) social democracy through the barrel of a gun, then revisionist ML is Blairism through the barrel of a gun.
>>606121 This is less of a question more of a hot take
>>606121 Having talk to a lot of old school communists from poor areas and countries Kinda yes Like the average communist was more interested in good free healthcare, education and a good wage without having to beg and banter with your boss(all those things did happen in socdem states) Politically they were communists in the sense that they liked communist states ,were against imperialism and used Marxist lingo (yes even uneducated peasents can understand what a revisionist is) Buuuuuuuuut in praxis they were some small things that did differentiate the eastern block from a socdem state Eastern bloc states had unions and other popular orgs in their parliament's, the USSR had very in direct elections but based around the work place , China had commune's and Yugoslavia had co-ops
>>606132 Also comparing kruschevism with Blair is cringe
>>606138 If anything the direct comparison with Blair should be Brezhnev, since they both had disastrous military interventions in the Middle East.
>>606144 Unlike Blair Brezhnev was actually asked to intervene at least
>>606151 That might be true, but the fact of the matter is there has never been a successful counterinsurgency in Afghanistan and Brezhnev was a fool for thinking the Soviet military could crack that code.
So would the Blairism description fit maybe PRC ML revisionism better, or Gorbachev?
>>606195 Probably Gorbachev since he, like Blair, is a complete political failure. You can't compare them to Deng Xiaoping, who, while having disagreeable policies, was a political and economic success story.
How are there not more Trotskyists when he argued for the expansion of the power of the soviets, opposed the increasing USSR bureaucratization and wanted to keep the revolution going, rather than succumbing to a second wind of the fallacious ways of the 2nd International's socialist patriotism through Marxist-Leninist revisionism that eventually led to a bunch of 'patriotic' ML states mutually hating and sabotaging each other?
>>606334 Because Trotsky was just as responsible for the bureaucratization of the USSR as those he criticized, the problem with Trotsky's analysis isn't that it's wrong necessarily, but that coming from him it's deeply hypocritical and people are turned off by that. It also doesn't help that the Trotskyist movement as a whole has been for the most part politically ineffective.
>>606334 >opposed the increasing USSR bureaucratization and wanted to keep the revolution going Is this what permanent revolution means, at least in part? So, civil war-era soviets would be maintained in the USSR and the revolution would keep going until the whole world is socialist?
>>606359 no unironickly google it
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>>606339 >Trotsky was just as responsible for the bureaucratization of the USSR as those he criticized, the problem with Trotsky's analysis isn't that it's wrong necessarily, but that coming from him it's deeply hypocritical and people are turned off by that. From my analysis it was Stalin's group that was responsible for by weakening the soviets and consolidating power into his clique (that eventually became mainly him). >It also doesn't help that the Trotskyist movement as a whole has been for the most part politically ineffective. It's because the world revolution died with the consolidation of a theory of retreat, a focus on third-world developmentalism instead of a proletarian communist revolution, leaving half of the world of imperialist power to corporatists to cement power instead of a confluence of militant class-conscious workers using strikes, workers councils, militias, transnational solidarity, seeing through commodity fetishism and class collaborationism. If all we have to do is sit and wait for every third world country to make an anti-imperialist revolution and nationalize some industries then it's like Caleb Maupin says "communism by 3050" - and that's ecologically unfeasible for one and absolutely ridiculous as well. ML relies on hoping leading the peasantry for fucks sake. It's completely useless in most of the English-speaking world.
>>606364 >>606359 Why do people feel the need to talk about something when they havent even read the wikipedia article on it >>606334 Read pic related
>>606469 Wikipedia may have a definition for a concept that is, from the perspective of a person who doesn't know, pretty broad. Sometimes it doesn't even try to define it in the opening paragraphs and just characterizes it instead. They even made a Simple English version of certain pages, but in my experience those may be oversimplifying the matter. Other resources often do the same, especially for topics this complicated.
>>606557 if you unironickly think >>606359 Then anything will be better
Reasking this: I remember there was a poster here (can't remember which thread) who was talking about how the Stasi had some plans which on paper would've completely changed the outcome of the events which ended the DDR in 89. I can't remember if he just mentioned that or got into more detail but if you're that anon or someone else and you happen to know about this please post whatever info you have or just what you know about this, I'd really appreciate it.
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What does /leftypol/ think of secret societies?
I'm very confused with intellectual rights, joke theft and all that I don't understand leftism very much. One hand I see people saying its all bullshit that you can't own these things it's a spook. No properties. The other hand people say it's labor and leftism is about the worker getting his deserved earnings as a producer of the work he creates. Even arguing before all that. We currently live under capitalism so regardless of which of the above two arguments are more right. What is the current proper thing to do? I'm confused. I didn't read theory or anything because I doubt it has stuff about memes.
how do you tell gramsci and bordiga apart
was karl marx racist
>>609562 initially yeah, he even supported colonialism at the beginning because he thought it was progressive in the economic sense, later on he dropped those views though
>>609495 gramsci never said to the police that Stalin betrayed the international proletariat by siding with "the old imperialists" in Washington and London >>608905 Basically the consensus here on stuff like that is artists should get paid by the hours they spend on a project rather than residuals and renting their finished projects out like they do now. The proper thing to do under capitalism is to try and make as much of the art open source and into the public domain as possible.
>>608273 They're bad and should be banned, see P2 lodge in Italy
People are saying we should defund the police and put that money into social work and schools. Why does taking money away from police help, but taking money away from schools hurt?
>>610800 Because police, at least in America, don't do much in the way of productive work, they don't even defend the property or solve crimes in the neighborhoods they're assigned to a lot of the time. Schools, by their nature are productive and exist ostensibly to train the next generation of workers and citizens, taking money away from schools means they have less resources to effectively teach kids and prepare them to live effective and happy lives.
>>610808 >they don't even defend the property or solve crimes in the neighborhoods they're assigned to a lot of the time How will taking away their money solve this?
>>610811 Because by taking that money from the police and pouring that same money into a social safety net, you can start creating a social fabric that people will feel less alienated from and desperate. People who don't feel desperate or radically alienated are much less likely to be involved in the violent crime the police can't solve anyway.
>>610820 But does anybody benefit specifically from taking the money from police?
>>610823 Everyone benefits from having less fascist pigs around, anon.
>>610823 literally everyone, including the police in some ways, benefits from defunding, and more importantly demilitarizing the police if that money goes back into infrastructure and schools
>>610826 I agree with demilitarizing, but why is taking money from the police and putting it into infrastructure better than just putting money into infrastructure?
>>610828 because they don't have to fear for their life when they go outside or worry about getting extorted for traffic violations
>>610830 Because we don't have infinite money, and the police should be less bloated and overfunded. It's like asking why it's good taking money from the military, it should be obvious why
>>610830 Because if you leave the police budgets as they are you'd have to either increase taxes or get the cops to arbitrarily hand out tickets to raise the amount of revenue available if these municipalities wanted to fix their infrastructure or improve their schools.
>>610831 >they don't have to fear for their life when they go outside They don't need to now, at least from police, they're way way WAY more likely to be killed by somebody in their own community.
>>610837 you're right but the problem is that the police act as yet another violent gang, just one that's state sanctioned, rather than a counter to the gangs that do shoot up and deal drugs in these communities.
>>610837 That isn't taxpayer funded, though.
>>610840 If the people doing the killing are getting money from the social safety net then actually it is
>>610836 Do we not like taxes here?
>>610833 In what way do you expect police will behave differently if they have less funding?
>>610843 It's not a matter of liking or disliking taxes, they're inevitable, but the structure of them can and should be changed. If there's an alternative to squeezing low income people with higher taxes in their brackets to raise revenue then that's the socially responsible thing to do.
>>610846 How about squeezing higher-income people? It really seems like "take the money from the police" is a fuck-you measure
>>610843 DPRK and Albania abolished taxes
>>610850 >The Sales Tax Rate in North Korea stands at 15 percent.
>>610847 Isn't increasing police budgets while slashing the rest of the public sector also a fuck-you measure? Higher income people by definition can afford it. During the Eisenhower administration the industrialists were getting hit at 90 something percent and they were fine and Eisenhower is hardly a socialist or social democrat.
>>610852 Yeah I never claimed that they couldn't. I'm not sure that would count as a fuck-you because it's not targeted towards one group, any more than increasing school budgets while decreasing every other budget would be a fuck you.
>>610854 On paper it isn't targeting poor working class people to slash the budgets of the entire public sector in favor of police, but in reality that's class and at least in part racial warfare, because they feel the socially damaging effects of these policies.
>>610860 >slash the budgets of the entire public sector in favor of police where did this happen?
>>610862 Pretty much everywhere since the COVID crisis hit, hell liberal darling Andrew Cuomo was literally talking about cutting funds for medicare in the middle of this.
>>610865 Cutting funds for medicare or for the entire public sector except for police? I actually do agree with you that to cut funds for literally everything except for police would be a fuck-you. But I don't think that actually happens.
>>610867 the budget cuts haven't been that direct, it's been a slow erosion that's been happening for decades with some brief interruptions like Obamacare that ended up getting rolled back anyway.
>>610869 Yeah that doesn't seem nearly as much of a fuck-you policy as "we're gonna drain the money from your department" Nobody has yet answered how this is going to result in any positive change to the way police behave, I'm just getting "less money = less cops = more good".
>>610871 Ideally the cuts would come with a serious change in police policy that would fall under the "social work" bit of public investment, something like the Camden, NJ reforms though I don't know if they cut the budget while doing those reforms.
>>610874 I definitely agree that positive change in policy would result in positive change but that's a complete tautology. I don't see how giving police less money will incentivize them to perform "social work"
>>610876 I don't think the idea is to change behavior, minds, and hearts of the police, rather to eliminate the need for their presence in the first place.
Instead of using money/labour vouchers in the lower stage, why not just assign jobs a “luxury level”, which is a metric that determines what sort of luxury a worker in that job can get?
My all "friends" are alt-right and I am ancom. Should I dump them?
Do you see this post?
>>610955 try to slowly redpill them, also dont let yourself live in a echo chamber
>>610955 of course if you dont like to be around your friends then just dump them, just dont dump them out of differing political opinions >>611060 no i dont
>>611064 Good enough answer. I was wondering since no one seemed to reply to me.
>>610955 Yes, don't be isolated.
So I found this picture on our booru and my question is: What is the point of attaching bricks to a rifle?
>>611525 forgot pic
>>611527 maybe it's some symbolism about building from destruction maybe balancing the gun but idk
>>611540 I have thought it would be helpful to aim, when you have very shaky hands? Maybe the girl suffers from parkinson?
>>611582 Yeah, it seems like it's for recoil. Symbolism seems like a far stretch.
What's up with peaceful protestor chanting "no justice no peace"? Are they peaceful or not?
>>611765 you can disrupt the peace without violence. like marching in the street and disrupting traffic, the normal functioning of the system, etc..
>>611776 So are they peaceful or not?
>>611778 That'll depend on your definition of peace, so far even the most militant of rioters haven't been deliberately trying to kill anyone outside of one or two incidents where a car attempted to run through a police line. No one has been lynched or murdered by rioters so far, the violence is more directed at property.
>>611840 So there IS peace, despite a lack of justice. I get that I'm harping on this little gotcha, but that slogan combined with constant references to "peaceful protestors" really does bother me, it feels very doublethink
What's going on with this? https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-14/Trump-U-S-military-should-end-endless-wars-in-faraway-lands-Rj4y39HvLa/index.html Is Trump going against the wishes of the bourgeoisie here? Are they gonna let him do it? Do the bourgeoisie finally actually want to stop endless wars?
>>611980 it wouldn't matter if the boujees actually wanted to end all of America's foreign wars, they literally can't because the American economy is completely dependent on war and the military industrial complex.
>>611983 >the American economy is completely dependent on war and the military industrial complex That sounds exaggerated. Any materials on this? Also why can't the bourgeoisie instead transition to other sectors if they don't like military?
>>611987 The American big bourgeoisie is entirely dependent on the military to make sure they have continued access to markets overseas. If the foreign wars end and some third world government tries to nationalize or redistribute, let's say, unused land owned by a banana company, that means the American businessman can't profit on exploitation of that land so he lobbies the American government to sanction, invade, or overthrow that third world government by any means necessary. America's already too developed and these companies, especially the monopolies, have basically no room to grow within the American market. IIRC Lenin talks at length about it in his work "Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism", America is dependent on its military the same way France and the UK were when Lenin wrote that book.
>>612006 Why does Trump keep bringing up ending the wars though? Also, what are some proven, specific examples of companies lobbying for wars?
Reasking this: I remember there was a poster here (can't remember which thread) who was talking about how the Stasi had some plans which on paper would've completely changed the outcome of the events which ended the DDR in 89. I can't remember if he just mentioned that or got into more detail but if you're that anon or someone else and you happen to know about this please post whatever info you have or just what you know about this, I'd really appreciate it.
>>612019 Any more details? This is one thing I've found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaceful_Revolution#Plan_X
>>612017 Not all of them were wars but the 1954 coup in Guatemala was pushed for by the United Fruit Company, the 1953 coup in Iran that overthrew Mossadeqh was sponsored by the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (which is now BP). Trump says he wants to end wars for the same reason anyone does, endless war is unpopular with the American voter and they want to pander.
>>612025 I had read into this after trying to look for some info myself but it seems mostly not that impactful, at least I feel like. That very specific number (unless it's fabricated ofc) leads me to believe they had fully identified who this people were, most likely designated us conspirators against the DDR but I feel like it was something else, or at least something else coupled with this. Like I don't see how arresting almost 86,000 people and declaring a state of emergency would've really stopped the further protesting and demands for reunification, let alone with all the other ongoing revolutions and protests of the Eastern Bloc that year.
>>612006 Why does America spend so much on its military compared to other Western countries? Do they all just leave the dirty work to the US and then piggyback on the result?
>>612061 The answer to your second question also answers your first one, the American military does the bulk of the dirty work and the big bourgeois of all the imperialist countries, America, all the EU, and arguably China until the trade war all benefited from the profits made possible by US intervention.
>>612075 How did it come to be? Is it because America happened to become the most powerful of all the others?
>>612103 Britain and France fell apart as empires in WWII as their countries were destroyed. America didn't suffer the bombings or direct occupation that Britain and France did so the US picked up the slack and became de-facto leader of the capitalist world, which is why the cold war is framed in terms of US vs Soviet Union even when people say West bloc vs East Bloc.
can someone give me a run down of deaths under socialist countries?(conflicts, famines... all of it) I want to be able to counter muh 100 million with a number more tied to history! I come to you because the saturation of porky sources muddying my research. thank you comrades any effort post will be greatly appreciated.
>>612234 can I also get that pic showing famines in capitalism vs socialism it has a wiki link I think.
a bump for the anons needing a answer.
Who was the PIECE OF SHIT who killed the Red Army Choir in 2016? It couldn't have been a simple accident
>>615222 What are you talking about?
>>615972 Not detailed enough! It doesn't speak of all events it just brushes up on stuff. It may talk of exaggerating with mao and birth rates or gulags and purges which is nice and all. It still needs to be a more detailed analysis, of why it got the 44 million number at the end!
>>615968 They died on December 25 2016 in a plane crash while on their way to Syria. After reading a bit about it, it seems it really was an accident caused by the pilot.
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>>617103 thanks mate! also isn't that 1947 famine related to 2nd world war? so it deserves a see note?
Why are incels such a fucking lost cause? You’d think these fucking faggots would realize it’s not women that fucked them over but neoliberal capitalism, capitalism destroyed people’s community life, it destroyed workplace solidarity, it sent all the stable jobs overseas, it made college a requirement to escape poverty and then jacked up the price, it made the internet as alienating and profit-driven as possible and then shoved it down our throats whilst making us addicted, it made us fucking fat, it tore families apart, ruined people’s fucking sanity. They bitch about wageslaving all the time, but nope, being a wageslave is only bad because “CANNOT GET THE VAJEEN” WHAT’S WITH THESE FAGGOTS!?!? WHY DO THEY REFUSE TO FUCKING LISTEN!?!? Here i am thinking these are fucking lonely young guys with shit to live for because of capitalist alienation, I try giving them the straight truth and these fucking cockroaches start ranting to me about jews, and blacks, and women; they rant about how “in muh socialism i gotta pay for some other woman’s baby, fuck having my basic needs met!l” Gah these fucking selfish pricks!! NOTHING MATTERS TO THEM BUT SEX at least not consciously. Honestly the response I got from trying to reach out made me hope these fuckers rot and die in a fucking Amazon warehouse, they refuse to fucking listen, why, why, why??? Why won’t they fucking listen, why do they all flock to fascism like sickening little vermin? Is it that they need to dominate women that fucking badly? Having your needs met, having a fulfilling job, living in a healthy society, having healthy social bonds, NONE OF IT IS GOOD ENOUGH Why won’t they listen, why are they such incomplete human beings?
>>617411 alienation, extreme isolation, internet bullshit, sexual worth as self worth, capitalist ontology, hyperindividualism, improper socialization. The incel thread was one of the biggest failures of socialism. You simply cannot reach these people.
what are Marx's opinions on labour vouchers?
>>617435 idk. email him
>>617438 I did hasn't replied can you?
What's up with all the materialist hegelianism in marxism? Like the "negation of the negation" and the dialectics of nature? Seems awfully idealist to just apply this "motion in contradiction" theory to everything. And the whole thing about "sudden state change", which is not always the case, especially in nature. Seems very mystical and a vestige of hegelian idealism. I don't deny that the discovery that contradiction can be the motor of change is an interesting one, but this shit about negating stuff seems ridiculous. Any help?
>>617455 Believe it or not, Mao Zedong agreed with you, he wrote his own theory of dialectics and said there is no "negation of the negation" and came up with his own alternative theory of dialectics
>>617455 Dialectics is just a way of reasoning, it's not something above science. At the beginning I felt like dialectics seemed incoherent, but the more I read on it the more it makes sense and I feel it can be applied to lots of things. I'm no expert though
>>617472 interesting. I have much to read. I'm skeptical of this new dialectical theory. >>617496 If it really is that, then I could agree but only if it's used as a method of finding answers and not explaining them. I've used it before when troubleshooting things and situations. At least my crude understanding of dialectics. Basically asking, "but what if the opposite were true". It can be annoying as fuck, but I think it can be helpful at finding root causes and coming up with creative solutions. Follow up question. Can marxism be considered cientific? Some argue it can't, and I agree that it isn't like other natural ciences. But it has the empirical aspect, which is praxis, and the theoretical aspects. In many ways, it is more cientific than a lot of junk economics and junk science (especially in the field of psychology and behavioral economics). It seems there's a dialectical relationship in theory vs praxis, analogous to scientific theory vs empiricism. Which migh be abstracted to rationalism vs empiricism. >JS Mill's empiricism thus held that knowledge of any kind is not from direct experience but an inductive inference from direct experience. Including mathematics, according to wikiedpia. I know Marx was a reader of Mill. My dialectical materialist spidey sense tells me that in fact scientific theory and empiric experience depend on each other and their contradictions allow science to move forward. Likewise, theoretical marxism is in a dialectical relationship with socialist praxis, which should put the advancement of marxism, whatever that means, forward. Makes sense?
Should relationships between cadre within a party be banned to decrease the threat of attachments and personal drama tearing a party apart and the threat of people using the party like a dating service? Based on a debate I had with some other commies
>>618337 No, a protocol should be put in place so that whatever the outcome of the relationship, it can be dealt with. We have a thing in our org, and we have a very active member who had a bad breakup with one of the members. He is not in the direct channels of communication, but we try to keep him updated and he is a very good member. This came out of very mature talks we had to have with both of them.
>>618345 Is the protocol a time period of inactivity?
>>618351 It really depends. If it's feasible to seperate them but still be in the same org, then that is an option. We're a small team and it works for our scenario, but you could be a large team and not have it work. Another option is to take turns going to org events. Another option is what you suggest. The important part is having something beforehand. To be prepared for whatever happens.
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is shoegazing jouissance?
How can I succintly explain the material conditions that influence racism? without using scary words like capitalism and alienation
>>618784 Slavery and colonialism
>>618795 It's not (mostly) slavery, slavery was 155 years ago and most pre-capitalist labor was unfree. It's Jim Crow and Redemption and the next 100-155 years of public policy, which continued to view black people as only good for cheap labor.
Why was communist Afghanistan such a failure? >Failed literacy campaign >Failed land redistribution since big landholders adamantly refused to give up land and many landless peasants thought it was unfair as well >Falling crop yields >Lots of unrest Just a couple.
So I've read a few threads on here about black crime statistics, and notice that you guys just stop replying after a certain point with the /pol/ posters. Is it because you know that there is more to the story than what statistics say? or is it just not to feed the /pol/ poster? I know you believe that we're all equal, but isn't it a fact that we're different?
>>622252 >but isn't it a fact that we're different? Not in the way /pol/tards think we are
>>622252 Marxists don't believe in a sort of levelling equality. We don't argue with /pol/ posters after a certain point because many of them are intransigent regarding a vulgar form of racial determinism in which they disregard any other possible explanation for differences in crime rates (such as the distinction between urban poverty and rural poverty, policing rates amongst racial groups, differences in historical wealth accumulation, etc.)
>>622252 there is no evidence that race has any influence over criminality
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>>622291 >there is no evidence that race exist
>>622295 race exists in the sense that the majority of people from subsaharan africa are black and have a weird head sape
>>622295 Did you know that humans have an abnormally narrow range of genetic variation among mammals? And, most of said narrow variation is concentrated within Africa? All the skin-deep differences between peoples from Asia to Europe to America, it all is based on a very small set of changes from an already short list of overall variation.
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>>622299 >skull shapes aka Phrenology this is a outdated refuted hypothesis from the 19 century
am i racist for not liking romani people?
>>622422 yes, but there's nothing wrong with personally being racist as long as it doesn't divide the working class.
>>622422 >>622341 >>622354 >If we deny reality we will solve racism There is nothing racist with saying that sub saharan africans and pacific islanders look different
How do I better understand the economic parts of capital? I follow all of the philsophical elements fine, but when he really gets into how capitalism functions I totally get lost
>>622451 That's not what's being said, and you know that perfectly well. You're being an asshole, stop it.
How do you counter the argument that Marxist theory is useless for the modern age (being something that was only true for the industrial period of steel mills and not true for first world service economies)? Another added argument is that capitalism now can exponentially grow because of google, apps, social networking etc. Now this all sounds really bullshit, but I don't know how best to approach it. I could mention that the industrial economy isn't gone, just shipped over seas, however how to counter the claim that the service sector and the online intellectual labour can create infinite growth, and that it isn't accountable by the LTV?
What was the "logic" of feudalism? What would have been its M-C-M' "equivalent"? Are there any good writings on the subject, like some feudalism-oriented version of Capital or something?
>>623052 >something that was only true for the industrial period of steel mills and not true for first world service economies I mean, these service economies have still outsourced/transported all their productive labour to second/third-world countries. Things don't just fall from the sky. Conditions in, say, India are still basically 19th century for the vast majority of working-class people. Also worth noting that (afaik) reshoring after COVID-19 is seen as a distinct possibility (at least in the States) made possibe by the depression in wages that will result from the massive spike in unemployment.
How do you guys justify the extreme censorship in the USSR (hard mode: don’t take the holier than thou position of protecting them from propaganda).
>>624263 i wish there was ussr like censorship in my country so i couldnt see dumb american cultural imperialism everywhere i look
why has so much of the old school alt right (spencer, mike p/enoch, heimbach) gone duginist/baathist?
>>623052 C O C K S H O T T
>>624949 cause they want to stay edgy and be more usefull to the feds
>>624949 They realized that free market and "degeneracy" of a western consumerism would not get them to their trad paradise
>>624949 >>624263 I don't. Censorship isn't productive and it damages government legitimacy. Being socialist/communist doesn't mean agreeing with literally every policy ever enacted in the history of the USSR, but that's a common misconception
Where is the reply, Don't Remember What Thread, where someone spoke about the objectivity of the LTV. I saw it yesterday but closed the tab before i had a chance to read it.
>>624983 Lmao if you country bans antifascist that would make even an neolib imperial apologist at UN flinch. Also "expresing concern" doesnt mean support (considering its a UN)
>>624983 >UN >all powerful >UN human rights commissioner criticizing the US' repression tactics for fucking once in their lifetime = UN supports socialism Why are you right-wingers like this?
>>624983 hahaha predicted it >>623819 rightoids are so gullible
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>>624983 What do you have against the United Nations? https://youtu.be/pKbQTLxn94I
>>624964 this. now they see the soviet union as a trad paradise (despite it being multicultural as hell and its support for womens rights) and "judeocapitalists" as the people who keep them down
>>625068 "We members of the conservative liberal petty/petit bourgeois class are the only true opponents of the neoliberal corporate managerial class, given the magnitude of the establishment’s resources that have been unleashed against us. It is a weighty realization, one that is hard to come to terms with even in light of increasing pressure through censorship, deplatforming, and social ostracization. A close analogy in today’s world is the financial terror of the sanctions the US imposes on so-called "rogue states" which do not bend to American power. Fox and CNN and their viewers will never come to such a realization, because they will never face significant opposition from the entrenched institutions that matter in America."
What would be considered the humane way to de-programming people that have bought into reactionary and fascist bullshit?
>>625095 unironically, restricting them from using their normal internet hangouts and making them interact with people
>>625123 Look at this soyboy
>>625123 Dude I've seen you post this one comic over and over again over the past month, is this really all you got?
>>625154 Pebble throw is all he’s got.
>>625154 Dont be so harsh on her, she just learned how to send images
>>625168 Oooh, interesting one.
>>625173 I believe that capitalists control the media, their ethnicity is irrelevant.
>>625179 >their ethnicity is irrelevant So you are fine with admitting they are jewish, then?
>>625168 Edit the kippah away (plus gravelfling.su), and it's good.
I have heard people here say that the reserve army of labour is beneficial to capitalism, how is this the case? I'm kind of new to theory.
>>625203 And that's a good thing. Your opinions suck and should be silenced.
>>625095 guillotine
>>625203 Those who undermine the equality should not be worthy of it
>>625203 We are authoritarians idiot, we believe in forcing our opinions upon society, by force. That's what a revolution is. Now why don't you kill yourself like that cuck you are always posting here about?
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>>625219 >>625173 >25% of american billionaires being jewish means capitalists are jews one of my friends is black, does that make me black? <muh jewish hivemind
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>>625254 but anon, teh ebil jooz secretly run society despite being an inferior race and muh superior aryans are oppressed by them :(((
>>625267 (me) somebody post this to r/antifastonetoss
>>625273 >plebbit
>>625276 hey don't knock reddit as a propaganda tool
>>625224 reiterating
>>625371 >we don't agree with Western cultural media >implying japan isn't the west and anime isn't based off of western animation
>>625371 silly fashoid, the westerners aren't going to be the ones eating the bugs!
https://twitter.com/search?q=Lenin I'm surprised to se Lenin thrending. However, the level of discussion is despairingly low and general twitter user's history knowledge is laden with mythology. Can anything be done about it?
>>625267 Maybe it would be better to make him a little brown. Because he does look "straight and white". I tried my hand at it, but it doesn't look good.
>>625293 repeating again
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>>625590 ta da
are there any archives for bunkerchan?
Can someone explain what ba'athism is and why so many people care
What is economicism?
>>628018 pan-arabist socialism that leans more towards the pan-arabist part nazbols/ex-altrighters have begun embracing it bc they think it's ethnostate socialism that fights jews
>>628141 (me) slightly off topic but i've noticed that nazbols and other "socially conservative leftists" ignore historical and regional aspects of ideologies and think that these quirks are what makes something work but these people have never been good with historical or material analysis
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did you deconstruct your phallogocentrism today?
Why are nazbols so quiet about labor Zionism? it's literally left nationalism?
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Im right wing but want more insight on left wingers who aren't totally retarded. Can I get some help without being told to read some random 5000 page essay on how communism is epic? I want to know if my beliefs are actually wrong. I don't like listening to right wingers on pol sometimes. Something just seems wrong.>>548092
>>628689 Honestly, as a leftist who shitposts on here a lot, never take chanboards as more than a source of entertainment. Especially /pol/, people there are locked in a filter bubble where their shitty arguments never get any pushback. Anywho, if you want a gentle introduction to some various left strains, I guess you could pick one of the following essays or short(ish) books: >Socialism: Utopian and Scientific by Friedrich Engels >The ABCs of Capitals by Vivek Chibber >Anarchy Works by Peter Gelderloos >How To Be An Anti-Capitalist In the 21st Century by Erik Olin Wright >Are You An Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You! by David Graeber >the introductory essay on capitalism at libcom.org: http://libcom.org/library/capitalism-introduction >Work. Community. Politics. War. by prole.info
>>628689 be more specific then
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>>628705 thank
>>628709 ayyyyyy
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What would he say about /pol/'s obsession with interracial porn?
>>632069 I wonder if we could ask one of those machine learning AI programs.
>>632069 >"Yo this isn't Monarchism."
>>632069 He'd probably just stroll away laughing.
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How true is this? I know the commie hate near the end is retarded babbling, but the beginning has me somewhat curious.
>>632121 Meaningless cherry-picked drivel. The Nazis privatized the fuck out of finance and industry and crushed labor unions.
>>632121 Who cooked the books on employment numbers and never raised actual wages? National Socialism! Who needed a war economy to survive because they were actually retarded on economics? National Socialism!
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How would a planned economy calculate the socially necessary labor time for commodities that serve the same function, but have different production costs or slightly differences in use value? For example, is the socially necessary labor time for a ketchup bottle averaged from the production of all flavors of ketchup or only from ketchup variants with identical production processes as said bottle? Food is the easiest commodity to provide examples for, but this question also applies to other products such as clothing and cars.
Does anybody know that quote from the youtuber FinnishBolshevik who claimed that the Finnish SocDem state was not based on the exploitation of Third World labour? This was the same quote which claimed that the Standard of Living in Finland decreased because of the de-industrialisation of the West and the reliance on Third-world labour. I saw both in the same screencap. Does anybody here have the same screencap I'm thinking of?
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>>632260 >>632260 Not sure how you mean. The calculation is in comparing the different labor times that went into the item.
>>632455 SNLT is on a gradient? So, the more demand it has (social necessity) the more labor time it costs?
>>632474 yes >The basic principle of our proposed scheme can be stated quite simply. All consumer goods are marked with their labour values, i.e. the total amount of social labour which is required to produce them, both directly and indirectly (The practical calculation of these labour values was discussed in chapter 3). But aside from this, the actual prices (in labour tokens) of consumer goods will be set, as far as possible, at market-clearing levels. Suppose a particular item requires 10 hours of labour to produce. It will then be marked with a labour value of 10 hours, but if an excess demand for the item emerges when it is priced at 10 labour tokens, the price will be raised so as to (approximately) eliminate the excess demand. Suppose this price happens to be 12 labour tokens. This product then has a ratio of market-clearing price to labour-value of 12/10, or 1.20. The planners record this ratio for each consumer good. We would expect the ratio to vary from product to product, sometimes around 1.0, sometimes above (if the product is in strong demand), and sometimes below (if the product is relatively unpopular). The planners then follow this rule: Increase the target output of goods with a ratio in excess of 1.0, and reduce the target for goods with a ratio less than 1.0. >The point is that these ratios provide a measure of the effectiveness of social labour in meeting consumers’ needs (production of ‘use-value’, in Marx’s terminology) across the different industries. If a product has a ratio of marketclearing price to labour-value above 1.0, this indicates that people are willing to spend more labour tokens on the item (i.e. work more hours to acquire it) than the labour time required to produce it. But this in turn indicates that the labour devoted to producing this product is of above-average ‘social effectiveness’. Conversely, if the market-clearing price falls below the labour-value, that tells us that consumers do not ‘value’ the product at its full labour content: labour devoted to this good is of below-average effectiveness. Parity, or a ratio of 1.0, is an equilibrium condition: in this case consumers ‘value’ the product, in terms of their own labour time, at just what it costs society to produce it.
>>632487 What's the difference then between pricing under capitalism and socialism? They both seem to be based off of how much people are willing to pay for things.
>>632496 For one thing, pricing in capitalism ignores externalities, ie., environmental damage, or the scarcity of a given resource involved in the production of the product, whereas socialism doesn't.
So what if the revolutionary subject isn't any group of people, but capital itself? Could the process itself be self-abolishing at some point? I say this because proles have proven unable to break out of capitalism fully at least (ML states didn't and don't really have a coherent political economy)
>>632595 So a capitalist market with carbon tax?
>>632633 How does our proposed marketing algorithm relate to the economic mechanism of a capitalist market system? There are similarities as well as important differences. In a capitalist economy, the production levels of marketable goods are adjusted over time in response to differential profitability, with additional resources flowing into industries showing above-average profits, while resources are withdrawn from the production of goods showing below-average profit. Our ratio of market price to labour value obviously performs a somewhat similar role to profitability. In each case a comparison is made between what consumers are willing to pay for each commodity and its cost of production (measured in some way or other). In a standard argument in favour of the capitalist market system, market prices are said to register the ‘votes’ of consumers for the various goods available. Price will be high (relative to production cost) where an item is highly valued by consumers, and the resulting high profitability will lead to an expansion in the production of those items which are most highly valued. The obvious objection to this argument under capitalism concerns the inequality of consumers’ incomes. The rich have many times the ‘votes’ of low-income consumers and hence the structure of production will be skewed towards satisfying the demands of the former (however frivolous), while the real needs of the poor will go unmet if they fail to register in the form of monetary demand. But if the distribution of income is basically egalitarian this objection falls and the voting analogy has some force. Aside from the difference in the distribution of consumers’ incomes, how does our consumer market differ from the capitalist system? Let us focus on the contrast between our ‘success indicator’—the ratio of market price to labour value—and the capitalist success indicator of profitability. The profit on the production of a commodity under capitalism is the difference between its market price and its (monetary) cost of production. This ‘cost of production’ is in turn formed by multiplying the market price of each input to the production process by the quantity of that input required per unit of output. That is, the calculation of production cost in the capitalist sense presupposes markets in the inputs to production (‘factor markets’ in the jargon). It is on these markets that the monetary prices of labour, materials, machines and so on are formed. In the planned economy we envisage, there are no ‘factor markets’ of this type. There is a market in consumer goods, the ‘signals’ from which are used to guide the reallocation of resources among the various types of consumer goods. But once the pattern of final output of goods is decided, the allocation of inputs to support this pattern is computed centrally, and the required means of production and labour are allocated by the planning agency (see chapter 6). The individual enterprises are not subjects of right, capable of possessing, buying or selling means of production (for more on this point, see chapter 14). While the typical capitalist enterprise finds the prices of its inputs given by the terms on which its suppliers are willing to part with their goods, the socialist production project faces no such ‘givens’. In the socialist economy, ‘cost of production’ has to be calculated socially, and (as we have already explained) we believe that the total direct plus indirect labour content (‘labour value’) is a reasonable measure of social cost. Apart from its applicability in the absence of factor markets, the adjustment algorithm we propose has a distinct advantage from the socialist point of view. Profit, the ‘success’ indicator for capitalist enterprises, depends in part on the degree of exploitation of labour within the enterprise. For instance, if two enterprises are producing the same product and employing the same technology, higher profits will accrue to the enterprise which manages to pay lower wages or enforce a longer working day. Our proposed ratio of market price to labourvalue, on the other hand, is not sensitive to the degree of exploitation within the enterprise. An enterprise can show a particularly ‘successful’ performance (high price-to-value ratio) only by (a) producing products which are attractive to consumers and for which consumers are willing to pay a premium (hence raising market price), or (b) using efficient production methods which depress the labour content of the product. Enterprises will not be ‘rewarded’ for paying below-average wages or imposing longer hours of labour.
>>632260 >is the socially necessary labor time for a ketchup bottle averaged from the production of all flavors of ketchup or only from ketchup variants with identical production processes as said bottle? The SNLT is specific to the use-value. So for the SNLT of a particular flavor of ketchup you would try to just look at the production costs for that particular flavor, as far as that is possible (joint production though!). The ideal goal to approximate is to figure out what quantities can be sold at just the production-covering price. >>632474 >So, the more demand it has (social necessity) the more labor time it costs? Costs for whom? In the here and now for the consumer, the price goes up if the buffer stock is shrinking fast. For the near future on the production side, the unit cost for the planned quantity is thought of in terms of labor mostly with little to no effect from demand, what is set by demand is the quantity. >>632496 The goal is to produce a quantity that can be sold at reproduction-covering price, as opposed to turning a profit.
I've heard that America's high healthcare costs are justified because that money goes back into the system to make medical innovations, which America leads in. Is this valid?
>>634073 Cuba makes a ton of medical innovations without having a system like America. Most of the money in America goes into the pockets of the fatcats, not into innovation.
>>634093 Any way to quantify either of those statements? It's kind of hard to imagine that Cuba innovates nearly as much as the US, particularly.
Should I lose my virginity to a prostitute
>>634129 Well, they are a much smaller nation. https://abcnews.go.com/Health/cubas-major-medical-achievements/story?id=43844344 here is a normie news article, I don't have any in depth sources on me right now, I can try and dig for some
Would you rather fight side by side with a fascist against capitalism or with a classical liberal against fascism?
>>634133 Virginity is utterly meaningless. Sex is at best "great but not magical" and at worst the most overrated thing in society. Go for it and see whether what you've been "missing out" on is worth anything to you.
>>634133 If you really want to then I guess, but I wouldn't recommend it, I mean just losing your virginity isn't gonna change your life in any way really and surely sleeping with a prostitute is not gonna even give you the same satisfaction as 'bagging' a real girl. To me, I would work on yourself more and try to do things the old fashioned way. Well, not that old fashioned, try online dating and apps and stuff too.
>>634215 The latter
>>634215 You're implying fascism fights capitalism. Liberalism and fascism are two sides of the same bourgeois coin.
Beria did he really do anything wrong? Are the claims against him just Khrushchev historical revisionism?
>>634802 There were literal child skeletons under his estate, guy was a monster, even Stalin hated him
>>634808 sauce?
>>634215 why would the fascist and lib fight? they're in love
>>634813 love is a strong word, they're in an abusive relationship
anyone else tired of people using PMC as "rich radlib"?
>>634994 The term sounds forced to me. Every time I read "PMC" it always figures as "Private Military Contractor".
Is feminism idpol?
>>635441 Yeah, sometimes it's productive or has a decent criticism, it needs socialism to be effective or meaningful though
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which lenin should i read first Imperialism or State and Revolution ?
>>635508 state and rev
>>634802 What thing specifically? Most of it is unsourced bullshit
>>635713 Furrfag pls go
>>635469 > nice cut https://us.politsturm.com/klara-zetkin-on-feminism What is the source of the quote, seem made up to me.
>>635779 Not an argument.
>>635816 It's not made up, it's just a contextless quote conveniently ignoring all the things that Clara Zetkin actually did for women's activism.
>>635837 I asked for source(s). okay I don't play that game. It's was written by Alexandra Kollontai(Александра Коллонтай), in "Женщина-работница в современном обществе", I believe work is untranslated. Misattributing(?) quotes is retarded Sources: https://aloban75.livejournal.com/5034129.html (reformatted) http://levoradikal.ru/archives/264 And another question have you ever read Clara's works?
>>635837 I cannot find source of the quote in my library, maybe it was truly written in Frauenfrage?
>>635837 >>635878 Frauenfrage* >Die Arbeiterinnen- und Frauenfrage der Gegenwart
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Someone sent me this with the caption "based nigger cop" because they know I don't support the police. https://mobile.twitter.com/saramikkka/status/1275119335770652672 I'm obviously under no delusions that Black cops are better than White ones, but I don't know how to tell them that without them questioning me on how George Floyd was racist and this wasn't. I'm stuck on the idpol loop, bros, help
>>635905 don't even play the race game, just say fuck cops and police are fucked no matter what race, or don't reply, they're bad faith actors anyway
Is the drone movie eye in the sky worth watching?
How do I stop just reading theory and start studying it and absorbing it? Should I reread chapters over and over and work on study guides? Try to discuss the works with others? 8th grade dropout factory worker retard here who never learned how to study text in high school..
>>638631 Honestly you should try getting into irl organizing if you haven't already, it'll get you to understand theory way faster than trying to read and absorb it multiple times
>>638631 good luck man, we're all gonna make it
>>634073 >most important medical research is funded by the government, e.g. NIH >much of private industry research is spent on developing identical analogues of existing medications to either bypass or extend patent >the profit and bureaucracy is always a waste of money that does not benefit the public. If you did not reduce personal healthcare expenditure but removed the insurance and pharma industries, you could then allocate even more money to research
Do humans actually look like primates? If they do, why are humans so beautiful? Only ugly folks look like primates.
>>640204 You are made to perceive them as beautiful to facilitate reprodiction.
>>640216 So humans actually do look like primates?
>>640227 By definition as they are primates. Although humans have a lot of features that are for attractiveness rather than survival like neotony, hairlessness, white skin, non-brown eyes etc.
>>640238 That doesn’t look like a human tho
>>640246 >White skin Bruh Eurocentrism is a cultural standard not a universal beauty standard Light skin and loose hair are adaptations related to climate
>>640246 >Hairlessness and white skin are for beauty Brainlet detected
>>640204 >Why are humans, the thing i have an genetic disposition to be attracted to to ensure my reproduction, more attractive to me than non humans?
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Asking for the last time: why was communist Afghanistan a failure? A lot of their undertakings that are similar to those of other socialist nations failed, such as a literacy campaign or land redistribution, the latter of which apparently had big landholders vehemently deny to give up their land with many landless peasants that eventually got some land considering the policy unfair to the previous owners as well. There were also problems with falling crop yields, and overall a lot of unrest. Why is this the case?
>>642164 this isn't a simple question, it's worth making a thread for, will likely get more answers that way.
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Why are they so similar?
>>642470 the arrangement is already derivative of other historical works and 2/3 symbols are the same.
>>642483 No Juche is NatBol confirmed
>>642470 Still have trouble believing this is just coincidence.
what are the differences between the capitalist and feudal modes of production?
>>642483 >>642470 Interpreting the heraldry of these three signs they are all unions of things I think >>642913 The correct answer here is industrial machinery, but some butthurt autist will disagree and you will learn much from their response as well
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>>640246 >neotony, hairlessness, white skin, non-brown eyes you just defined a naked mole-rat, not a human
>>642913 The key difference is aliens but some butthurt autist will disagree
>>642978 They are pretty cute
>>642987 but i don't want to fuck it, do I?
>>642990 I think you need to figure that out for yourself, Anon.
>>642990 It has evolved for you to give it a carrot as a treat or something though
>>642985 Ayy Lmao fellow space comrade. Indeed the difference is the aliens, but of course the nuclear annihilation of Capitalism for its foundations destroyed. Viva la Ayy Lmao Revolution
Was the USSR state capitalist or not?
Is the claim that Xi(ism) moved towards Maoism again from Dengism (now supposedly being situated "between" the two leaders, in theory) hold any water or is it just China-fetishist 'red flag good' brain problems? Please motivate your answer.
Why didn't China collapse the way the Soviet Union did?
>>644815 Totally different EVERYTHING. The question would be, why would you expect China to collapse like the soviet union when they have nothing in common other than red flags
>>644815 Dengism allowed the bureaucrats to liberalize the economy somewhat without outright destroying the country and causing a soviet style collapse with a yeltsinist style coup.
>>644818 Okay. I'm ashamed of admiting to being retarded. The better question would be: What conditions in the Soviet Union lead to the economic and political demise of the USSR that China was otherwise shielded from? >>644823 Was liberalization essential for survival?
>>644826 >Was liberalization essential for survival? No, not for Khrushchev and neither for Deng. They represent anti-communist forces eating powerful vanguard parties from within at the behest of the imperialist bourgeoisie.
>>644826 >Was liberalization essential for survival? maybe, maybe not. I think it was absolutely essential to get the developed nations to inject giant amounts of capital into China enabling them to massively advance their forces of production, lift a billion people out of abject poverty, become a world power etc. We will see how this play out, class struggle continues within China, I think it's possible for them to go down either road still, but I feel pretty good with Xi at the helm.
Is social capital a useful concept? I'm highly skeptical of terms which affixes a unconventional words to either "capital" or "labour".
>>646952 WOW I learned so much ty ty thx u!!!!
Why are post-leftists even a thing? They seem like every stereotype boomers and other rightoids have of anarchism but unironically
>>647233 How would they keep control of the state and the capitalist economy until Actually Existing Communism comes to pass?
>>647239 We're working on that one, would you like to help?
>>647239 Co-ops
>>647239 They keep control of the state by force. They don't keep control of the capitalist economy, but replace it with socialist economy (gradually, faster or slower based on the material conditions).
Was it ever written how exactly the state is to wither away? Are people just going to stop relying on state police and courts for some reason in the future, albeit gradually?
>>647366 Marxists believe the state is a result of class society, every mode of production (society, way to produce and improve our material condition) has a basic and a superstructure, the basic consists the means of production, the class system and the superstructure the rest of society like ideology and the state, the superstructure and the basis influence each other, but the basis is dominant, the prime mover, so the state is a symptom of the class system, so when classes get abolished Marxists hold that the state too would disappear, as the basis (classes) would change the superstructure, does that make sense?
What is the hope for the class struggle today?
are students proles? do they even have a class?
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I don't know if Universal Basic Income is a thing debated in this place, but here in Argentina the peronist party decided to transform the emergency surplus check into a basic income. What are the implications of this and what could expect later on the road?
>>647685 Congratulations to your Peronista's and the Argentine people for establishing a perpetual strike fund and support for the indigent and frail comrade
>>647685 It extends the lifetime of capitalism, since people are less desperate
>>598386 >What is the most obscure communist country? >>598393 Not a country and not communist (did you mean to say something else?). >>600570 Also not communst and also run by center-rightists. Are you two ok? >>648215 The correct answer, as well as Nepal.
>>648267 >What is the most obscure communist country? Everyone knows there's five countries called communist, but a more useful interpretation of this phrasing would be to consider "is" irrespective of time; meaning, "Considering all communist countries of all time, which one is the most obscure?". >did you mean to say something else She meant Grenada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Revolutionary_Government_(Grenada)) >Also not communst and also run by center-rightists. Are you two ok? Check the first reply chain to that post (>>600666). At one time it did have a communist party.
>>648280 Double parentheses not working well here, here is the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Revolutionary_Government_(Grenada)
What should I get to protect my eyes from bullets and tear gas?
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>>648430 Check this out
Did Russian constructivist El Lissitzky predict Albanian bunker technology?
>>648475 Isn't it generally recommended to not carry a phone?
>>649586 I don't know how important it would be not to, however if it's important enough to get updates then I guess it should be carried.
>>649586 Pull the battery when you don't need have spares
>>649586 It's not recommended.
I knew this at one point and forgot so it doesn't have to be a long response but what does the LTV have to explain about price depreciation? like I buy a new car for a certain price. then, I drive it.off the lot and as soon as I do the price drops to half that which I bought it. So is the value in Marxist sense closer to the first price or the price 5 minutes later when its now "used" car?
How the fuck do you watch threads?
>>653236 The value of mass-produced objects is determined by a social process. If some mass-produced thing gets a defect during the production process and the defect is repaired before it reaches the customer, its individual labor-time story will be different from its brothers, but the price will be the same. Value isn't quite the same as price, but something similar can be said about value here. It's not really inside of the object and the object with the unique story has the same value as that of objects with different production stories with the same end result. What I told you in the first paragraph was about things that are the same use-value. The used cars are use-values somewhat different from each other, even when it is the same model. Cars are very complex objects and checking them for wear and tear thoroughly is hard. There is risk in getting a used car and that risk is priced in, so to speak. If objects in a group are of different quality, but that difference is hard to assess before it shows up in use, what happens? As a rule of thumb, why not use average experience? (If there are experts about wear and tear of a type of complex object, these experts can see finer distinctions than a lay person, still within a distinction they have to use an average.) When a higher amount of work goes into producing a higher quality which is not even perceived by the costumers relative to goods with lower amount of work required for them, the extra work is waste. Likewise with too subtle differences in second-hand objects brought about by different usage. Value is determined socially, by the average story, not the individual story. Your car did nothing wrong, but it is grouped together with the asshole cars and these are judged as collectively guilty.
Are there any (good) annotated books of intermediate to advanced topics like those covered in Capital?
how the fuck do you enter the riot channel? i trie downloading the app, but it is not finding #leftychat:matrix.org
how do you address the concern that someone or a group of people who do not truly have our interests in mind may misdirect the revolution or put themselves in power? i think the questioning comrade i am talking to may be trying to say "What About USSR!" but I am also stumped by why a lot of socialist change has gone the way of questionable leaders.
How do we actually go about seizing the means of production? And then what do you do after that
>>656517 class collaboration and solidarism cement your retarded wehrmacht crossdressing >>656523 make people give twitter pronouns -Karl Marx
what has been the most influencial piece of leftist literature since the fall of the USSR
Blackshirts and Reds
I think I remember some people saying that Nordic countries are imperialist too because they outsource a lot of their work to low-wage laborers overseas -- is imperialism really as simple as that?
>>656883 they are imperialist because they are dominated by finance capital, and export capital, not commodities to the third world. Check out Lenin's Imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism
Is there any site more sectarian than espresso Stalinist blog? Where the only socialists are Lenin and Stalin? What the fuck is this. What could we learn from it. https://espressostalinist.com/
>>658016 It is because they are Hoxhaists. The Hoxhaist position is that the only socialist states which ever existed are USSR in Stalin era and Albania in the Hoxha era. The only site more sectarian is the site of the group calling themselves "Communist International (Stalinist-Hoxhaist)". http://ciml.250x.com/shwm.html
>>656554 This place.
Why would people work under socialism? Don't say human nature.
>>659151 to get food (and other shit). he who does not work, does not eat
>>659317 How is that different then capitalism then? People starving because they can't find work??? What about the elderly and disabled?
>>617179 I guess, but I didn't make the pic, I had to go find it because I didn't save it from the times it was posted here. I also think the 1917 Turkestan famines could be misinterpreted as caused by communists. >>615222
>>617433 >>617411 I think the best you can do is leave a rational and non-aggressive copypasta addressing all of those issues they talk about (and the ones you mentioned) from a communist point of view, and leave, and never look back. Not ALL of them are too far gone; some of them are still new to it and probably too shy/not indoctrinated and angry enough to get into arguments and internet debates. Those lurkers are the most likely to see your comment on a public forum and change thanks to you change their ways before it's too late. You could even get the person you're debating to think about it later on. It's also important to show onlookers a better alternative before someone else does it. Just don't get too mad about it. Only copy, paste and leave, since you know it's not worth your time to try to convince them forcefully.
>>660531 In socialism you get a job if you want it. You have the chance, it's up to you whether you want to work (eat) or not. Of course, the intelligent decision would be to work. In return for contributing to society, your (and your kids') basic needs are fulfilled. When you don't work, you could die. You're given the choice to have or not have access to housing, healthcare, education and food. In capitalism that's often not true. Even if you're looking for one to avoid starving, it's gonna be hard to find a job if you're even able to, and on top of that, you'd probably have to get two or three jobs plus any other way of getting extra money to pay for healthcare, housing, your kids' education, etc.. In capitalism you're forced to work more than you should just to get by, but simultaneously you're also forced NOT to work because there are no jobs for you, and you're fucked because the state won't help you. >What about the elderly and disabled? In capitalism the elderly have to work increasingly longer than before because they would starve or become homeless otherwise. Retirement is no longer possible at the same age as a few decades ago. If this weren't the case, working after retirement age would just be a person's choice because they enjoy it or it keeps them active and healthy. I don't know, it's 2am right now and I might just be rambling on about overly simplified shit myself.
>>660606 Okay that sounds a better than capitalism. I don't understand your answer regarding the elderly who have nobody to earn food for them. Would they be taken care of like the oprhans by some social service? If communism is achieved would it be any different in how people got fed?
Can someone dumb down to me what engels means by a pairing family
>>660947 Mummy and daddy raising babies together son
>>660606 >you get a job if you want it. You have the chance, it's up to you whether you want to work (eat) or not. Of course, the intelligent decision would be to work. In return for contributing to society, your (and your kids') basic needs are fulfilled. When you don't work, you could die. That's capitalism.
>>660954 How is that different from the modern monogamous family
>>660891 >Would they be taken care of like the oprhans by some social service? yeah, maye a little bit different but I don't know how to answer that >>660958 Supposedly. What happens is that rich people don't have to work as much as a poor person and their children often don't have to do shit to live more than comfortably. Meanwhile the poor have to also deal with mass unemployment, not being able to find a job. In capitalism jobs are constantly denied and people are unable to find work all the time. It gives you even less of a choice than socialism
>>660980 At least you can blame "the economy" or whatever, unlike in the social darwinism you espouse.
>>660973 Free childcare
Is there any historic prescedent to very high unemployment rates? What happeneded last time unemployment was very high?
I need proof of environmental factors to the "holodomer" and great leap forward famine.
>>661494 The Great Depression. The New Deal in the US. WWII in Europe
Can someone calmly explain to me what the typical leftist "anti-israel" range of positions is? I never really bothered having those arguments, and my knowledge of history is weak, but the recent surge of Israel threads made me want to understand the criticisms. I am not being paid for this post.
>>661809 The take is that Israel is an illegitimate settler-colonial state, a junior partner in imperialism that can only even exist with the support of a larger imperialist power As an illegitimate state Israel should not exist
>>661690 What do you think causes bad harvests? Magic? Evil intentions? Reminder that these famines occurred very shortly after wars in countries facing global embargoes
What's the difference between money and labor vouchers, in essence? Looking up money…: >A legally or socially binding conceptual contract of entitlement to wealth, void of intrinsic value, payable for all debts and taxes, and regulated in supply. Isn't socially-necessary labor wealth? Or does the difference merely lie in labor vouchers not being regulated in supply, assuming that is true?
>>661828 What you wrote resonates with some of the things I've seen other posters say, but I hope you can clarify it. I'm not sure what an illegitimate settler-colonial state is. I'm not used to thinking of states as legitimate or illegitimate, and those terms are not featured in my thought or in the things I've read. I don't really have a theory of legitimacy, so I can't tell what criterion is being used to determine when a state is legitimate, and how this criterion is derived, or if it acceptable to me. I have a guess but I would rather let you explain it instead. I think I understand what "settler-colonial" means, but I'm not sure how exactly it relates to state legitimacy. I really don't know what being a junior partner in imperialism means. I also don't know how to interpret the statement "As an illegitimate state Israel should not exist". What is the status of the "should" in that statement?
I have a close friend whose been very receptive towards what I've been teaching him about socialism,class consciousness, etc, and he's always been suspicious of elite circles etc and comes from a poor area, so hes very receptive. However, he likes conspiracy theories and keeps going to /pol/ lately, ot the point where he now unironically beleives all of the Qshit. He;s hesitant to come here because he doesn't think he's smart enough to understand it aside fromwha tI explain to him in a simpler way. I don't know much of anything about Qanon or the conspiracy theories around it circling pol, but basically, what is it and how do I debunk it? tl;dr how do I debunk this Qanon shit to friend and potential comrade?
>>661931 most importantly in practice, labour vouchers become void on realisation and cannot be accumulated or circulated. they're more like rationing cards than money, but you get paid in them.
>>662074 you don't have to debunk anything, just point him to the right conspiracy theories. trueanon is good for that.
>>662077 What's wrong with accumulating them? It's their labor, why can't they use it whenever they want? Also, why not let circulation? People could bypass this by purchasing something and then making a gift to or exchange with someone else, can't they?
>>662110 you can save your labour vouchers and spend them later if you want, that's not the same as capital accumulation. capital accumulation, hoarding other people's labour, makes you a capitalist and preventing that is the whole point. circulation also enables that. gifts are fine of course, and some limited amount of barter isn't going to lead to accumulation either.
>>662082 Going that route, thanks
why are the french so antisemitic and italians so racist?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeny_Zamyatin Who is this dude, and why is Russian filmmaking adapting We into a movie? >True literature can exist only when it is created, not by diligent and reliable officials, but by madmen, hermits, heretics, dreamers, rebels and skeptics. And why is he so goddamn cringe?
>>660995 Didn't explain
Does Marx's LTV beg the question? The section on equivalent form in chapter 1 really stood out to me, how does he reach the conclusion that value is derived from SNL?
Why people in harsh conditions tend to have higher birth rates than the ones that don't? It is because of the idea that they have to have more children to help them with work, or a more abstract idea of having to pass their genes to the future generations and they must have more children because of high mortality rates? or a combination of both?
>>663470 Lack of pension system + high child mortality (and also worse contraception options).
>>661934 Israel came into existence without the consent or acceptance of the indigenous Palestine populace whose land they are occupying, to secure its existence on conquered land it waged war with nearby Arab states, continued to annex more Palestinian land, and then created an apartheid situation for the indigenous Palestinian populace. Like almost all settler-colonial states the ideological/political project of Israel is the eventual extermination of the indigenous populace. Israel is non-legitimate because it is neither a nation-state that arose out of an indigenous nation to the region nor did it integrate itself into the region for peaceful and mutually beneficial co-development, it is an invasive and genocidal force in the Arab world.
>>663496 >without the consent or acceptance of the indigenous Palestine populace whose land they are occupying <But Palestine was sparsely populated and there were some Jews there beforehand anyways, plus the nation of Israel is older than Palestine, going back many thousands of years Refutation?
>>663544 >But Palestine was sparsely populated and there were some Jews there beforehand anyways And they lived alongside the Muslims and Christians. Plus, Jews were only like 2% of the population, with most people being either Muslims or Christians. >plus the nation of Israel is older than Palestine, going back many thousands of years According to what? The Bible? >In 638, following the Siege of Jerusalem, the Caliph Omar Ibn al-Khattab and Safforonius, the Patriarch of Jerusalem, signed Al-Uhda al-'Omariyya (The Umariyya Covenant), an agreement that stipulated the rights and obligations of all non-Muslims in Palestine. Christians and Jews were considered People of the Book, enjoyed some protection (dhimmi) but had to pay a special poll tax called jizyah ("tribute") in return for this protection. According to Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari, the covenant guaranteed Christians freedom of religion but prohibited Jews from living in Jerusalem. However, during the early years of Muslim control of the city, a small permanent Jewish population returned to Jerusalem after a 500-year absence. Even then there were more Christians there than Jews. Even during the Crusades, there were more Muslims and Christians than Jews. There was no such thing as "Israel" - there was only Palestine. >In 1486, hostilities broke out between the Mamluks and the Ottoman Turks in a battle for control over western Asia. The Ottomans proceeded to conquer Palestine following their 1516 victory over the Mamluks at the Battle of Marj Dabiq. The Ottoman conquest of Palestine was relatively swift, with small battles fought against the Mamluks in the Jordan Valley and at Khan Yunis en route to the Mamluk capital in Egypt. There were also minor uprisings in Gaza, Ramla and Safad, which were quickly suppressed. So, no. There was no "nation of Israel" for a whole lot of its history.
>>663558 >According to what? The Bible? Jews have lived in the area for a really long time. Before the era of Romans, and at least up until the time that their architecture and artifacts were discovered. The Western Wall wasn't built recently you know.
>>663575 Push the anglo back into the sea
>>663575 >Jews have lived in the area for a really long time. So? They still were never the majority, the majority for a very long time have been Christians and later Muslims. Jews weren't "pushed out" of Palestine nor were they forced to relocate. They lived there, they just weren't that big a population. >Before the era of Romans, and at least up until the time that their architecture and artifacts were discovered. So? Muslims and Christians have made many mosques and churches in Palestine for a huge part of its history and Jews still maintained synagogues. >The Western Wall wasn't built recently you know. Neither was the Al-Aqsa mosque, which is considerd one of the most important mosques in the Islamic faith and the first Qibla.
>>663592 What about the Kingdom of Israel dating back to before 1000 BC and the 12 tribes that were before that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy) Weren't Jews there first of all and eventually expelled by various empires, which accounts for a lot of characteristics associated with them now (e.g. being geographically widespread, working in non-agricultural jobs)?
>>663608 "Groups are usually described as indigenous when they maintain traditions or other aspects of an early culture that is associated with a given region. Not all indigenous peoples share this characteristic, as many have adopted substantial elements of a colonizing culture, such as dress, religion or language. Indigenous peoples may be settled in a given region or exhibit a nomadic lifestyle across a large territory, but they are generally historically associated with a specific territory on which they depend." >What about the Kingdom of Israel dating back to before 1000 BC and the 12 tribes that were before that? The Kingdom of Israel existed before 1000 BC, sure, however Muslims and Christians have maintained their culture in Palestine till this day. Muslims have lived in Palestine since the 600s and still do to this day, the Christians have existed since 1AD. The Jews may have been first to inhabit Palestine or they may have not been. Many ethnic groups and such migrate from one place to another, they did as well. However Muslims and Christians have remained in Palestine for longer. >Weren't Jews there first of all and eventually expelled by various empires, which accounts for a lot of characteristics associated with them now Same can be said for many other ethnic groups, such as the Romanis. In the end, let me hand out a simple question: how does a defunct empire from 1000BC justify Zionist takeover of Palestine - a land which has for more than 1400 years mainly been occupied by Christians and Muslims. The Jews have remained a minority since then, they are no longer the indgenious population.
Will socialism allow me to realise my life long dream of fucking a dolphin?
>>663720 No, full communism might but it shouldn't you disgusting decadent
>>661833 muh evil collectivist policys scared the crops into not growing. infact Stalin/Mao took to the wall and gulaged all the crops those tyrants please I need non-socialist sources that prove the climate related effects.
I see all these anons they are so good at getting them how does one get a (you)
>>664157 here, have one on me.
>>663470 this isn't generally true, it's just mostly happened to be true so far in history because harsh conditions have correlated with other conditions that cause high birth rates, such as agrarian patriarchal societies in which children are labor and women have no say in their reproductive fate. post-dissolution ussr is an example of harsh conditions with low birthrates.
>>664055 why does it have to be non-socialist? that doesn't make sense. it's generally accepted that droughts contributed to both, and any research is going to be based mostly on socialist primary sources.
People who have shares of a company are bourgeois?
>>664622 On one hand you can think of it as people gaining wealth from the work of others, but on the other hand buying shares is getting back the labor exploited from you… assuming you're a worker.
>>664622 depends on the amount of shares
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How do I avoid being a wagie as much as possible? Especially in Amerikkka? I don't have any family to support me.
>>664622 No. Check this post. Anyone above 30MM is bourg. Between 3MM and 10MM is petit. The gap between 10 MM and 30 MM is ambiguous and depends on specific situations. Below 1 MM net worth excluding real estate is prole. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2s9u0s/comment/cnnmca8 There are ambiguities which is why I don't condone using petit or trying to systematically define bourgeoisie. A small business owner in the ghetto might may act more like a petit bourg than a well paid engineer.
>>664662 please tell me how to not be a wagie
>>664733 classes are not based on income at all. The difference between petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie. Bourgeoisie own means of production, and live of the exploitation of other's labor, petite bourgeoisie own means of production, but do not live solely off of the exploitation of others, they themselves labor. Proletarians own no means of production, and live by selling their labor power. You have a very confused, bourgeoisie understanding of class. For Marxists, it has NOTHING to do with income level, but relations of production (although, of course bourgeoisie make much more then proles, but many petite bourg in fact make less then the top strata of proles, this does not of course change their class position.)
>>664273 the seething lib will say "of course your socialist site covers your ass" happens all the time if I have socialist source's"
Why don't people talk about Saudi involvement in 9/11 more? I almost never see it come up in truther circles
I need extensive proof of the successes of socialism. I know education health and life standards went up alot. I just need alot of info to show this.
What's the background of the 90s war in Yugoslavia and the accusations of genocide? Anyone got a documentary, article, or book?
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What proportion of capitalists were previously wealthy at the beginning of the industrial revolution? In the IR, only wealthy people could get those expensive machines, so I'm imagining that it was mostly feudal lords, who were already in a position of power, who became the new capitalists, however I also heard that the IR upset the old order a bit and that the new capitalist class was at odds with the lords of the previous order.
>the price of a commodity is, on the average, always equal to its cost of production. Hence, the price of labor is also equal to the cost of production of labor https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm Is the price of a commodity really the cost of production? That wording makes it seem as though, then, the producer only breaks even, and there can't be any surplus value gained.
>>664205 thanks on a side note do you think its bad I really like the feeling of rage?
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>>666340 Some one respondpas to this. The Principles of Communism is an important text for beginners and it would be worthwhile if we could get this cleared up. What kinds of values are being discussed here? What does that quote mean?
>>666340 >>667126 The value of a commodity is equal to the value of the materials consumed creating it, and the value added by living labor. Surplus value is obtained, because the laborer is not paid the value of the labor he added, but rather sells his labor power (itself a commodity) to the capitalist. Since the value of a commodity is the sum of the values that it took to create it, the value of human labor power is equal to what is necessary for the laborer to survive and reproduce. The capitalist pays him for this value, but the laborer adds more then that value to the commodities he produces for the capitalist, this is surplus value.
>>667338 So "the value of the commodity" as you first said is the "exchange value", that is measured in socially-necessary labor hours, right? And then there is use value; how is that quantified? Also, is price separate from both those things?
>>667367 Yes, it is the exchange value, measured in socially necessary labor time. So the exchange value of a coat, would be the value of the socially necessary labor time needed to sew it, plus the value of the cloth, thread etc. that become the coat, plus the value of other things that don't become the coat, but yet are needed for its production, such as wear and tear on the tools. The value of the components is measured in the same way. Use value is not quantified, that is why exchange value exists. The use value of a car is transportation, the use value of a coat is to keep me warm, the use value of bread is nourishment. These are all completely different from one another, how can I trade an item for another item with a completely different use value? Because they all have something in common, that they are the products of useful human labor, that is where exchange value comes in. Price is another attribute of commodities. Exchange value is basically a broad average, true across a society, the pole around which the price of a commodity fluctuates. The price is what a commodity actual sells for in a specific instance. How value transforms into price is called the transformation problem, and I'm not really expert in economy enough to go deep into that.


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