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/leftypol/ is a non-sectarian board for leftist discussion. IRC: Rizon.net #bunkerchan https://qchat.rizon.net/?channels=bunkerchan

(43.09 KB 511x796 lenin.jpg)
Professional Revolutionaries Anonymous 03/26/2020 (Thu) 05:20:16 No. 397036
The main problem with "Professional Revolutionaries", aka people employed by the party, in socialist/social democratic parties is that they tend to become alienated from the workers and the main goal of the party becomes perpetuating the jobs of its professionals. This is obvious in almost all degenerated socialist parties. A clique of oligarchical inner party members who are employed by paid dues and are mostly concerned with keeping the organization and their jobs alive. Same thing with Unions, same thing with all these organizations. The only reason the whole idea of professional revolutionaries worked for the Bolsheviks was because their party was illegal and being a professional revolutionary meant being a criminal and being constantly on the run or undercover, which disincentivized the whole thing problem. Whats your take on this issue?
>The only reason the whole idea of professional revolutionaries worked for the Bolsheviks was because their party was illegal and being a professional revolutionary meant being a criminal and being constantly on the run or undercover, which disincentivized the whole thing problem. the solution to the problem is to give the revolutionaries the tasks which will require them to be a criminal and on the run. these tasks already exist but no-one wants to do them.
>>397040 So have an illegal party?
>>397047 yes! but, have legal mass organizations connected to the party. read Lenin well and understand his strategy.
>>397040 Back in those days, the illegal tasks were part of elementary struggle, striking and such was illegal. In the modern context, what would this consist of? Anarchist style terrorism and sabotage?
>>397052 The workers in the mass orgs would have needed to participate in strikes anyway lol. but getting weppins and espionage, to name two examples, are illegal but necessary tasks of revolutionary work.
>>397047 >>397040 How would that work after a successful revolution? >>397048 >have legal mass organizations connected to the party Every Leninist state did that though
>>397060 Post-revolution organization is a different question, we're just talking revolutionary strategy here.
I don't endorse terrorism, but I agree with Lenin's take on this, and think it is more relevant than any of the other posters so far would like to admit, other than >>397040 Any political movement that aims to threaten the power of the bourgeois state must violate the law. Anything that can secure resources to be used in service of the revolutions, or undermines the power of the state intelligence service or law enforcement agencies is productive. Revolutionaries of the 21st century will need to learn social engineering, red-team shit, counterintelligence tradecraft, operation security and so on. This sounds larpy but is just the reality of the world we live in. I will not say anything more about this because /leftypol/ is not the platform for such a sensitive and important topic. If OP is a glowie then he is doing a damn good job already, and deserves a promotion.
Bureaucracy of this sort is a cancer to any party trying to be a mass movement. We need to learn from Anarchists. If you aren't breaking the law, then no paid party members. Just a bunch of workers. Really the only things that necessitate full time party workers is either retarded LARP bureaucracy, political campaigns for offices or breaking the law. If you're soley a direct action org, I see no reason for this goonery.
>>397067 The main illegal function of the Bolshevik party wasn't terrorism or espionage, although some of that was done, especially during really revolutionary periods of time, it was mostly agitation and smuggling around newspapers.
>>397076 Hence why I said "in the 21st century". We are up against a very different enemy then the Bolsheviks were.
>>397048 Sounds like a good idea, but I don't know if front organizations are practical especially if you are running what amounts to a Terrorist group. The Communist Party USA has like 24 front organizations, protest groups, labor unions, etc. The feds found all of them. They are waaaaay more competent than the Tsarist secret police. If you plan to break the law, do it with people know well or do it alone. Otherwise you basically guarantee Fed infiltration.
>>397079 >Kamo was caught in Germany shortly after the robbery but successfully avoided a criminal trial by feigning insanity for more than three years. based schizo
Strikes are obviously legal in the West, but only as authorized by yellow unions. The 21st-century Leninist must look into organizing wildcat strikes in Minecraft. This is a gray area and most likely will get you banned off most servers, or put on timeout with a fine of several thousand emeralds tho
>>397084 Nooo not the heckin emeralderinos
Unironically digitally organize illegal activity (in minecraft) like the feds pretend is happening.
>>397087 I know, right ;_; This is why these designated griefers need to be compensated well within the party.
>>397092 But bro I don't want to get on the RX-84 minecraft server blacklist
>>397090 Have some fun in Minecraft, lads. Just be careful not to go full retard like the RAF clan, the Weathermen clan, etc. No adventurism.
>>397095 Weathermen were pretty based though.
>>397094 That's where the use of proxies to move from U.S. servers to some other country's servers comes in handy. Another fun addition for your Party clan's underground department.
Btw, what happens when the server's mods are too busy to deal in full efficiency? Should we transform our Leninist Minecraft clan into a Focoist or Maoist clan?
>>397099 Protracted people's Obby bombing is only a good idea if you're in the country side biome and the towns are self reliant, otherwise you can't really hold a line.
>>397104 Damn, you're right. So, are the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist, Steve Thought people wrong about a universal application People's Obby bombing?
>>397105 Yeah, pretty obviously. Maoism is a peasant theory and protracted people's war is not well suited to proletarian nations. We can also see how well Focoism worked when Che tried it.
All of this "in minecraft" shit is pointless and silly. Talking about illegal shit isn't illegal and Feds already know you're being earnest. >>397080 Connection to the front organizations aren't supposed to be secret, that's impossible, they're simply supposed to be the legal side of a movement with plausible deniability towards their connection with the illegal side. The legal side gets people involved with the movement and does legal direct action while funneling resources and people to the illegal side. Without a front organization any revolutionary org will be insular and dogmatic and eventually starve as members get arrested/killed/lose interest. That's why shit like the RAF and Weathermen never went anywhere whereas the IRA survived for decades until the conflict ended. >If you plan to break the law, do it with people know well or do it alone. Otherwise you basically guarantee Fed infiltration. The first part isn't sustainable. Infiltration should be expected and fought against, trying to prevent at all costs does more harm than good. That's also a benefit to the front organization, is that you'll be using infiltrators to work towards the movement, and if they ever want to actually infiltrate the clandestine parts then they'll have to do a lot of good before they even get there.
>>397111 I prefer Terraria, but yeah. If the Eds ever come, consider taking a trip somewhere else with the help of those specialized comrades in your org.
>>397111 Can you really get away with having an above ground political organization that is even implicitly connected with an illegal group? It would be like starting the ISIS party in the USA. Maybe not illegal, but you would have feds on your ass fast and if you were funneling money to terrorists then you're dead quick. Unless you're proposing the sort of plausible deniability the alt-right does, where technically all the violence is done by completely unaffiliated individuals who just sort of swim around within larger legal groups and discussion forums.
I used to play a lot of Hardcore Factions on Minecraft. The format of HCF is that the world is relatively open, but players can start "factions" and invite other players to join. The owner of each faction could then claim "chunks" (16 by 16 plots of land from bedrock to the build limit) for the faction. This would mean that only members of the faction could destroy or place blocks there. The goal was to raid other factions bases, and try to amass the largest fortune of diamonds and enchanted armor, that you could then use to have high-profile duels at spawn. The more people you had in your faction, the more land you could claim, but also the higher the chance was that someone you recruited would actually be an agent of a different faction, or a lone wolf looking to steal your stuff and hide it in their personal vault. My classmates and I would start factions together, and we did lots of raids of other factions bases, but since we where 11-13 years old at the time there was all sorts of social drama that would play out in minecraft. We had a hard time staying united as a class. When I sold some kid oregano and told him it was pot, you better believe that I woke up the next day to find my faction base blown to high heaven. Same when I made out with some other kids "girlfriend". Now, there where a variety of tools that we could use to get a competitive advantage in this server. The most obvious one is what are called TNT cannons. Since you couldn't break blocks in other factions territory, the most common way to get into a completely enclosed base from the outside was to use TNT to launch other TNT into their territory. Knowledge of how to build TNT cannons was a very useful skill, and people who were particularly good at it where highly sought after as faction members. There where a number of preventative measures that one could take to keep their base from getting raided by a TNT cannon . If you where to cover your base with water, TNT would not destroy the blocks making up your wall. However, these kinds of bases could still be penetrated using techniques such as "lava monstering" and the use of a "sand cannon." Both offensive and defensive considerations related to the physical construction and penetration of bases where very important if you where to successfully carry out raids, and prevent your own base from being raided. Another way of going about raids had less to do with physical penetration, and more to do with social engineering. If you could get one of your faction members to pretend to defect and join an opposing faction, then they could break the walls of a base and let your faction in. This method was more effective and expedient, but took careful planning and required that we get over our divisions as a class for the purpose of raiding opposing bases. Another way to gain an advantage was to make edits to your minecraft client which would allow you to see through walls and gain advantages in combat. This was dubbed "hacking" and was against the rules on the server. However, lots of people did it, and many of us got away with it. I used many of these exploits, and was well aware that others in good standing on the server also used them. There where precautions I had to take in order to prevent the server admins from learning that I was using hacks though. I had to be very careful about who I told about these hacks, and who I used them in front of. If I was going to kill someone with autoclicker and an aimbot (which was nearly an instant kill in those days) I would need to sneak up behind them so that they would not see my user tag. Eventually, I became a moderator on this server, and I learned that there was a degree of nepotism and corruption in the server's administration. Members of the most powerful factions had personal relationships with server moderators and admins, and these mods would look the other way when members of these factions broke the server rules. My position as a moderator allowed me to join one of the more powerful factions. This left me with a choice. Was I going to stay in this faction and let my classmates fend for themselves in light of what I had learned. For a while I thought that is exactly what I would do. However, it got a bit lonely playing with people I could only talk to through skype. I missed raiding with my friends. So, one day after learning the coordinates for the personal base of one of the most wealthy and powerful players on this server (the owner of the faction I had joined) I decided to act. I did not have permissions to destroy blocks in this base, but I did have the coordinates, and one of my classmates knew how to build a high-powered enough combination TNT sand cannon to get through the walls. I hit up my classmates, and although some of us had beef with one another, no one was going to miss out on this raid. We managed to overcome our divisions, and unite as a class against a common enemy. We all got into a skype call together, and I gave them the coordinates of the base. I hung out inside the base so I could warn them to crouch and hide their name tags if the player we were raiding came online. Over the course of several hours, my comrades built a combination TNT-sand cannon and slowly blew a hole in the many layered walls of the base. Just when they had gotten through, the owner of the base came online. He instantly realized what was going on, kicked me from the faction, and brought in several other members of his faction to help defend the base. By this time though, we where already in. A battle ensued, and many players on both sides where using hacked clients. I only made it out with one chest full on diamond armor, but many of my comrades had better hauls. I was demoted from my moderator position soon after, but it was all worth it. I had learned a new sense of solidarity, and I treated my classmates better going forward. I no longer sought moderator status on the server, opting instead to try and raid as many admin-connected bases as I could. The only reason we were able to pull off this raid was because we used all of the tactics available to us. We used social engineering, we used the most powerful cannons you can build in the game, and we violated the servers rules by using hacked clients.
>>397144 Based and Minecraft-pilled
>>397036 Either democratise party planning (maybe going as far as anarchist organisation such as shorter meeting times or revolving roles) or make careerism a non-option. Enforce being a prole with a job.
>>397297 Can you elaborate on how Anarchists do this kind of thing?
>>397120 > Unless you're proposing the sort of plausible deniability the alt-right does, where technically all the violence is done by completely unaffiliated individuals who just sort of swim around within larger legal groups and discussion forums. If the strategy works...
>>397609 So no professional revolutionaries, just legal organizations with fiery rhetoric and expect some members to be coo-coo enough to pic up on the subtext?
I've had this question on my mind for little while: How are professional revolutionaries funded?
>>398375 bank robbery in tiflis
>>398375 Historically? Through personal relationships with sympathetic members of the bourgeoisie, through moonlighting, or through criminal enterprise. Today? It's very easy to buy stolen credit card numbers on the darknet. Insurance companies and banks take on the liability for most card fraud. It's hard to turn this into money, but you can easily secure all the means of life this way.
>>398392 (me) YOU SHOULD ONLY DO THIS IF YOU ARE ACTUALLY USING YOUR TIME TO ENGAGE IN REVOLUTIONARY AGITATION With great power comes great responsibility.
>>398401 () Also, part of being a professional revolutionary is practicing austere discipline and sacrificing personal comforts. Read Nechayev, but don't take him too seriously in some areas. The terrorism stuff is stupid.
>>398375 lenin collected NEETbux from his mother's estate that she inherited from her husband (lenin's dad) and used it to live abroad in exile
I do not engage in any of the things I am advocating here, because I am not prepared to take on the responsibility of being a professional revolutionary. It's not the discomfort part, I can put up with sleeping on the floor and eating only black bread, it's that I care too much about my friends and family. There's also a lot of other ways to secure funds through fraud or larsony. Another part of being a professional revolutionary is putting the needs of the revolution above your personal relationships, which means being willing to disappear or change locations if need be. You can take out a loan from a bank and then change locations and start using a different name, you can get a job that involves handling money, and then take the contents of the till and hop states or countries, you can write fraudulent checks (something that you will literally find homeless crackheads doing, it is not hard). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsMydMDi3rI Living in the way that this kind of activity necessitates means having little to no personal possessions in the long term, and being willing to risk going to prison. If you end up in jail, you can use that time to do theoretical work, and have correspondences through the mail with revolutionaries on the outside. Being a professional revolutionary has never been easier than it it today. Technology provides us with all sorts of new tools to secure funds and communicate quickly and securely. It requires us to adapt and learn operational security though, and just as it did in the 20th century it requires an uncompromising commitment to place the needs of the revolution above your own needs.
>>398306 I get it, but that's what that guy was suggesting, I was just getting clarification.
>>398445 Gotcha. I think that guy is dumb.
Ok so the general line in this thread has been "Professional revolutionaries should be breaking the law", good answer but the main question remains. The whole struggle can't be illegal obviously, you need some sort of legal mass movement agitation. So how do you stop careerism from forming in legal organizations with paid positions? No paid positions?
>>398459 >So how do you stop careerism from forming in legal organizations with paid positions? No paid positions? If you got to make payments, than do payments in goods rather then money. Careerists tend to chase coin, and will be put off by this, while the genuine people will be fine with goods payments.
yes this is an ongoing problem of the NGO-isation of the left as it gets co-opted. You can see this very clearly in the UK left, as a lot of the action is asking people to donate to patreons etc. Chatterjee distinguishes between civil and political society. While his distinction is sometimes vague, (why do school teachers advocating towards government on behalf of their communities not count as civil society for instance), there is a general idea that civil society is a rule-based politics of the elite, or in Chaterjee’s terms a ‘sanitized fortress’ (p.74). Political society on the other hand, is made up of self-identified populations (though originally it may have been governments that constituted them as groups) that in their demands and negotiations with government do ‘not respect the principles of bureaucratic rationality or even the provisions of the law’. (p.73) Chatterjee then is optimistic to an extent, seeing that the directions of political society, if realised, is ‘forcing their governors to learn, how they would prefer to be governed (p.78) This is something the modern left should take note of.
>>398459 Yes, no paid positions. However, if one of your party members is going to become homeless or not be able to eat I think it's fine to use party funds to help them out.
>>398529 The party should not be the legal arm of the movement. The party is exactly what needs to be illegal. It's unions, community organizations, and publishing outlets that should be legal and it's fine for them to employ workers.
>>398535 Then you get careerist goons though.
>>398567 >Then you get careerist goons though. What? Where? How? The culture of self-discipline within the underground party and a "security" squad within it that monitors the affiliated overground front groups is already a great start in mitigating this shit.
>>399911 This. Just like the mob (not being sarcastic, it is like the mob and that isn't bad. I mean it's not good because it's like the mob, it's just good and also happens to be like the mob.)

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