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/leftypol/ is a non-sectarian board for leftist discussion.

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Why is the Left stuck in the mud? Anonymous 02/12/2020 (Wed) 20:03:31 No. 274553
Right now, the Left faces a dire prospect: We're heading nowhere, and fast. The old forms of organizing have been misunderstood, cadre orgs and industrial unions face huge issues today. I'll not get into details on why here, but they aren't functioning as vehicles for educating and mobilizing the working class as they once used to. That and the "leftist"-liberal alliance (a.k.a SJW plebs), aren't doing anything reasonable either. The Left, today more than ever needs new theoretical perspectives to inform our practical strategy and to find new forms of organizing ourselves and workers that are fit for today's world, OUR world. I propose that we do what revolutionaries of the past all did before achieving fucking anything worth mentioning: Learning, Learning and more Learning. Here, we welcome everyone to Comradely deliberations and discussion regarding theory for achieving a communism practically and politically that is free from the dogma, personality cult, determinism etc. that have plagued the movement in the past and are largely what is keeping us from moving forward now. Here is some key recommended authors to start off with: Moishe Postone, Theodor Adorno, Karl Marx, Robert Kurz , Amid (https://colddarkstars.wordpress.com/2 ), Andreas Malm, Slavov Zizek (maybe), Mark Fischer, and so on and so on. also: See the thread that spawned this shit >>270660 https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/270660.html#q273952
>>274553 I think questions of organization and strategy are something of a red herring. This isn't to suggest that they aren't of critical importance, they can and will make the difference between victory and defeat. However I don't think the dillemma's of the current left are a question of strategy. Take tactics such as vanguardism, mass line, etc. These are good principles for any kind of organization regardless of its ideology or even its purpose. They haven't failed and they don't need to be radically changed. People will talk of the value of electoralism, entryism, syndicalism, or other organizational strategies, and debate endlessly why one is superior to the other. However the fact is that given how splintered the left is, its almost certain that all of these tactics are being used simultaneously, all with equally disappointing results. This has led me to conclude that the real issue isn't tactics, but a simple lack of objective revolutionary conditions. We like to think back to the golden era of the 1919-1945 period as the heyday of socialism in the developed world, but I would submit that this was almost entirely a product of the prevailing conditions rather than of particular strategies. Our preoccupation with this era in socialist history has left us thinking in terms of those conditions, which is to say conditions that were already favourable to our cause. As a result, there is a serious lack of thinking in regards to how we ought to act when conditions are such that there is simply no appetite for socialism. Up until now, the standard responses have either been to cling to the past, and behave as if revolutionary conditions still existed (this is what most modern tankies and trots do) or to give up entirely and go full socdem. Lucky for us conditions appear to be changing in the wake of 2008 and the death throes of neoliberalism. However in most countries we are still a long way off from people being ready to break with capitalism altogether. We therefore need to orient our thinking to what we are capable of achieving in the current moment, with the focus being on preparation for when the situation deteriorates further and people become open to more radical propositions and activities. In other words, we need to do what we can now with the goal of building a solid foundation for more ambitious action in the future. Before anybody asks my main theoretical inspiration for this is Gramsci, as he said "The aim of a War of Position is to prepare for and eventually initiate a War of Maneuver."
>>274585 So, would you say that actions such as raising class consciousness via agitprop of all kinds would be appropriate for building said foundation?
>>274601 Yes but more importantly we need to begin making concrete gains for the working class in the short term. In most contexts this will limit us to doing socdem shit, but my thinking is that when shit really hits the fan and people get angry enough to be receptive to more radical ideas, we want to be known as capable and staunch allies of the workers, not a bunch of randos they've never heard of.
>>274609 For beginners here, what would you recommend they do to make those material gains in the short term?
Lefties like most westerners are largely consoomed by signaling and performance rather than action. People post on twitter and fedbook instead of unionizing, doing strikes, solving local problems with community organinzations, etc. By tying your social status/success to your presence in virtual space, people become dependent on posting to socialize and don't think to, don't know how to, or worst fear socializing in meatspace but outside of sanctioned spheres of living (pretty much either as workers or consoomers).
>>274626 That certainly is a problem of our age, most exemplified of course by the SJW-types but this is a problem which runs deep in today's society. How would you see a remedy to this specifically? Perhaps lefties could organize more communal, local activities for people of all stripes to attend (and negate the need for monopolized online social spaces)?
Because most of the people calling themselves “leftists” in the West right now are liberals that don’t want to be told what to do and believe in nonsensical postmodern shit like gender theory.
>>274611 It would depend on where you are. You would want to determine what the local issues that most mobilize working people are. In the US you would probably want to get involved in the election and M4A, as well as the Fight for 15 movement. However I’m not advocating just blending into the broader milieu of socdems. As communists we need to maintain a degree of independence, people need to know that it’s communists fighting for these things, not just socdems who are going to chicken out when the time comes to push harder. This could take the form of independent orgs like unions or parties, as well as factions within existing ones.
It continues with electoralism and reforist trade unions when it should be building real extra parliamentary power
>>274715 How would you suggest paramilitary wings organize? Perhaps private funds could be set up to contribute to the buying of arms and equipment? How would you suggest such groups gain ground in countries with harsh anti-gun laws?
>>274553 >The Left, today more than ever needs new theoretical perspectives to inform our practical strategy The exact opposite is the truth. Or rather reading political books and reorganizing theories is a waste of time for several reasons. For one the public doesn't give a shit and it is very hard to change the opinion of individuals on banal subjects that even he himself doesn't regard as important. For example in an experiment subjects were shown a common misconception how the seasons come to be. The subjects had no reason to doubt this explanation, yet their brains tried to "unlearn" or block out this harmless idea. Considering this, what chance is there to change the views of the masses, about deeply emotional topics, that they have already been softly indoctrinated into, by doing a retard ralley or opening some gay ass bookclub with stacks of theory? The most realistic chance of change i can think of is to have a few powerful people with the will, ability and resources to oppose the current system. Be that as borg, politican or controlling local infrastructure. And you have to keep in mind that these individuals will have their own vision of what is right, which makes threads like this pretty pointless tbh.
>>274553 i figure the reason why "the left" is not more popular is the same reason why "the left" does not support UBI. i don't know what that reason is but my guess is that leftist types that into philosophy and social sciences are generally not talented at quantitative mental operations. if you want to attract programmers and people that actually do stuff you need a little humility and to acknowledge that you "being" a leftist and reading karl marx and visualizing yourself being intelligent and being admired for your intelligence by others does not solve anything. the type of person who reads karl marx and this kind of theory is probably a bourgeois with free time. it's just sort of a vague "improving yourself" activity. this is not the worst mindset, but also not the best. you want programmer-minded people who spend their entire lives breaking down problems into their little atomic pieces and then proceeding in a systematic way. not useless pseudointellectual narcissists why there is a hatred of UBI here, maybe it's because this place is full of dumb fucks and dumb fucks just act like tribal apes and hear UBI and think YANG and go NO my man is BERNIE you are BAD i'm team BERNIE you know YANG never said anything about Karl Marx, and that's my whole identity!!! so fuck yang!! i am an intellectual!! i read political theory!! i am smart!!! meanwhile you are not doing anything. you think "being a leftist" is an actual activity, much like people on /g/ post questions like, "when do i know i am a real programmer" or "i want to program but i don't know what to program". these kinds of people are completely hopeless bc they fundamentally don't understand the difference between doing work and larping. basically just stop being underage low-IQ non-STEM retarded useless faggots who do nothing but LARP are anti-UBI. i hate you all. except for the helpful people. the real answer is probably exposure. most people don't know bunkerchan exists and have never heard zizek. they just know MSM is retarded and are skeptical of the "academic"(impotent) reputation that comes with leftism
>>274828 What if I told you that STEMfags are part of the PMC?
>>274786 >For one the public doesn't give a shit and it is very hard to change the opinion of individuals on banal subjects that even he himself doesn't regard as important But this is not the case with any of the issues raised even by the new tide of socdem movements ala Bernie. People do care about issues of deteriorating public services, how far their ever shrinking salaries can stretch that month and their piles upon piles of debt, just to name a few. Yes, I agree that arguing with individuals won't make a big enough splash to change the status quo, but that should never be our goal anyway. Our goal should be to use our initial political theory as a springboard to inform how we can best use our time, energy and resources on the ground to help people where they are at, not to just squabble among ourselves about high-concept academics that are wholly disconnected from our material reality. >The most realistic chance of change i can think of is to have a few powerful people with the will, ability and resources to oppose the current system I mean, that has always been the case due to the nature of the accumulation of capital, but we still cannot afford the sit idly by waiting for a philanthropist savior to come along and make it all right for us, we need to be laying the groundwork now where we are at so that if and when the conditions are right, then we can secure our footing and make the revolution a reality, piece-by-piece. 'Do not strike while the iron is hot, but make it hot by striking.' That is what this thread is dedicated towards, discussion of not if and when, but the here and now.
>>274828 We realize and agree that in-fighting (dogma), 'LARPers' and ivory-tower intellectuals are huge problems on the Left and we stated as much in the original post. Instead, please direct your time and energy to propose exactly how we can overcome these problems with respect to our current material conditions, preferably in the physical realm. That is the specific purpose of this thread.
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>>274585 >This has led me to conclude that the real issue isn't tactics, but a simple lack of objective revolutionary conditions. This is the thought that has haunted me as well. I joke that I'm a "Marxist with Posadist Characteristics". The idea is that large scale wars are the surest means of disrupting the capitalist regime enough to create objective revolutionary conditions - you see this from Russia, to Germany, to France (both 1789 and 1870), to China, to the mass of nationalist revolutions following WWII. Imperialist countries like the USA, UK, etc. don't have the favorable class structure of "combined and uneven development" that allowed Russia and China to initiate a socialist revolution first. Therefore, a third world war may be the only means of exposing capitalist barbarity enough to move first-world workers to revolution - but today, a third world war would be fought with nuclear weapons. A similar situation exists with climate change, wherein the first economic shocks only come into play after capitalism has doomed us to catastrophic warming in the future. The world can only be won after it is destroyed. Anyway, that's enough with my wannabe screencap doomer philosophizing. I believe that the left should ditch the "cadre Leninist", "party building", "Comintern DemCen", etc. model of organization typical to Trot and Stalinist orgs and try something different. Ever since the 1930s, the Cadre Leninist model has produced nothing but sterile sects and continual decline in the real influence of socialist ideas. Here are some of the sites I've been reading: https://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/1263/widening-frame-of-debate/ The Weekly Worker has some great stuff on party organization. I've linked an article by Mike Macnair, who is probably my favorite contemporary socialist writer right now. He has debated with Cockshott on several occasions. https://regenerationmag.org/articles/ The "Marxist Center" in the US is another interesting formation, this time without a clear programme other than a rejection of "cadre Leninism" and dogmatism in general. Fun fact, Boots Riley (yes him) is a member. There are also some Marxist DSA factions I've been looking into, I had previously dismissed them as Democrat Cops lolol but despite all the idpol there may be something to save. AOC and the "DSA dems" have been spineless socdems, but I think it would be possible to get a real, self-proclaimed Communist elected to certain US House districts if the organization put their resources behind it. Forcing Trump and the corporate media to attempt to denounce real leftist ideas would be a massive propaganda win for us. >>274842 We need more STEMfags on our side, but the problem is that very few STEM students are going to come out of the experience as socialists. Social science fields force you to think critically about society, which is why only colleges with large social science departments end up recruiting large numbers of leftists. Mike Macnair has an article on it here: https://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/882/organising-for-an-alternative-vision/ Another key insight he makes is that class wise, students are essentially petty-bourgeois. Think about it: ownership of a $100,000 degree is not that different than owning a $100,000 storefront.
>>274553 >Right now, the Left faces a dire prospect: We're heading nowhere, and fast. Oh please, people say that all the time...
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>>275640 Op from original thread here, I can agree opon that phrasing to be a tad dramatic lol But since you seem to have something to contribute with, join us! That's an open invitation. We're on the platform riot right now. >>274678 Where I'm from we have the terms Right, aka conservative to facist liberal, aka conservative to succdem and left, aka succdem to communist The term leftist prolly needs to fucking DIEEE due to it being situated along the axis from libtard to succdem... So communists etc are excluded from the political spectrum effectively. The right liberal, left distinction isn't great either but yeah.... >>274585 I want YOU in OUR chat. https://matrix.to/#/!gGopqwjEQOrQHSGYgj:matrix.org?via=matrix.org >>274786 >>The most realistic chance of change i can think of is to have a few powerful people with the will, ability and resources to oppose the current system. Be that as borg, politican or controlling local infrastructure. And you have to keep in mind that these individuals will have their own vision of what is right, which makes threads like this pretty pointless tbh. Looks like we got you to do some reflection here! That's great IMO, I think you're underestimating the value of revitalizing theory, as you've just said, people with will, ability and resources will oppose the current system, and peoples minds doesn't change easily. So with this is mind, are you able to A: even give good tools to these peole B:Have a theoretical grasp on how to practically set good leftist stratergy for our current predicament in motion? If you have, great join the chat m8. https://matrix.to/#/!gGopqwjEQOrQHSGYgj:matrix.org?via=matrix.org >>274828 >>i figure the reason why "the left" is not more popular is the same reason why "the left" does not support UBI. i don't know what that reason is but my guess is that leftist types that into philosophy and social sciences are generally not talented at quantitative mental operations. if you want to attract programmers and people that actually do stuff you need a little humility and to acknowledge that you "being" a leftist and reading karl marx and visualizing yourself being intelligent and being admired for your intelligence by others does not solve anything. the type of person who reads karl marx and this kind of theory is probably a bourgeois with free time. it's just sort of a vague "improving yourself" activity. this is not the worst mindset, but also not the best. you want programmer-minded people who spend their entire lives breaking down problems into their little atomic pieces and then proceeding in a systematic way. not useless pseudointellectual narcissists What if they could... you know... Mingle a bit ;) No but seriously you have a valid contribution here that is worth discussing. We need to #healthedevide here lol. >>i hate you all. Have you read four futures? There is small segment on UBI as a " trigger" towards a better system there, and I would shout yang yang lemme join da gang any day if we can properly lay out that this would be a working tactic and not just end up with some other state taking the logic of capital to some new extreme by imposing some cursed pseudo-ubi to compete effectively... I get where you're coming from with your SOBIAL SCIENCE DUMBF but you can't go 100% to the other side either, you need as cursed libs would put it, a healthy mix, and while I agree that we're low on the stem side right now, the Social science side isn't exactly great either... >>274842 Even if they are they got to be won over, but not fetishized as holders of some kind of absolute knowledge either, they tend to be very firmly socialized into capitalism, because they've never been trained for denaturalizing thinking regarding society and theory at large. They just accept standard variations of everything, the stem-heads that have their own concepts of shit and don't just accept the standard theory of it all is the peeps we need prolly. Also if you join you can drop us big fat knowledge on what activity these peeps should engage in, so join the chat! :) https://matrix.to/#/!gGopqwjEQOrQHSGYgj:matrix.org?via=matrix.org >>274859 Based, join the chat https://matrix.to/#/!gGopqwjEQOrQHSGYgj:matrix.org?via=matrix.org >>275631 Tag along m8 https://matrix.to/#/!gGopqwjEQOrQHSGYgj:matrix.org?via=matrix.org
>>274553 Shut the fuck up retarded nazbol. >noooo le libs 1!!1 Back to fucking /pol/.
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For the modern imperialist nations I see it as this: 1. De-industrialization of the imperialist nations, leading to a severing of workers to the processes of production, the skills that come with that and the militant unions who's strategies were devised specifically for said industrial conditions. 2. Mass Automation via the Personal Computer and the Internet both directly replacing industrial jobs with service/finance jobs and eliminating the physical processes needed for still-existing industries (especially the entertainment/culture industries) 3. The capitalist propaganda machine, the scale of which that currently exists having never before been seen even in the most totalitarian of fascist regimes. 4. The cybernetic surveillance state which makes organizing or performing local and mass dissident actions both online and off increasingly difficult. Dogmatism and in-fighting within and between Left political groups and the lack of international aid given to armed insurrections after the USSR's collapse then meant that no counter-tactics to these new material conditions where developed or acted upon collectively by said groups, neither was a cohesive model for implementing socialism today conceived of. That along with the commodification and co-option by capitalists of both past symbols and figures of resistance and future 'movements', particularly in the environmental sphere. The Left must respond to these conditions specifically if it's to stand a fighting chance of regaining the power it once during it's 'peak' in the 20s/30s.
An utter failure to attack elitism in a meaningful way, and to attack its scientific rationale, has persistently doomed the left since the early 20th century. Perhaps it was only ever a fools' hope, but when socialists readily back elitist issues like population control policy and "environmentalism" they completely capitulated to the ruling elites and offered no program whatsoever to the vast majority of people; when a socialist does come close to a workable program, the logic of population control/etc. undermines it by demanding harsh austerity and state control. When this is pointed out, the only argument that the left can make - because it is so accustomed to losing - is that these brutal measures employed by the ruling and middle classes are mean, a completely simpering and pathetic response.
>>274828 UBI subsidizes employers. If everyone gets 1000 dollars a month, wages drop by 1000 dollars a month based on the simple laws of capitalism. Its essentially corporate welfare, but in a stealthy way.
>>276734 so what you're saying is, my boss will give me a hundred dollars a month?
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>>274553 >Why is the Left stuck in the mud? Because "the left", as various organizations, are removed from class struggle to any meaningful degree. Class struggle is a fact of life for us proles, it is something present when we breathe, eat, shit, fuck, sleep, or waste time on imageboards because it is woven into our existence as wage laborers within capitalism as an inescapable chain around our necks dragging us into despair and destitution. To "the left", class struggle has become something abstract that is to be observed or debated (often in the dumbest fucking ways) rather than something to be lived. This is why when we're seeing stuff like the strikes ramp up and open revolts across the globe along with the rise of reaction to crush such things, "the left" seems more interested in bringing such things back to a electoral candidate or party, larping as revolutionaries decades in the grave, debating the same things without raising any new points, or trying to get money/members for an org that functions like a pyramid scheme. We need to learn, but our learning must be informed by our real life struggles as proles against capital. I think it is just as important for us to learn by doing as it is for us to learn by reading, all the theory in the world is useless if it doesn't escape the confines of a few autistic fags reading it as we have seen from countless bookclubs or party reading lists or whatever else leaves their radicalism at the door. We need to be organizing where we work and where we live, and not just to talk about a book for half an hour every week before going back to our lives.
>>276062 >De-industrialization of the imperialist nations, leading to a severing of workers to the processes of production, the skills that come with that and the militant unions who's strategies were devised specifically for said industrial conditions. this, this, and this Deindustrialization destroys socialist organizing in three ways. First whenever a factory is organized, the factory closes down and moves somewhere where workers aren’t organized. This not only distrusts worker organization, but it also makes workers currently working in factories afraid of organizing. Then workers left behind by offshoring and deindustrialization often turn towards the right. They wish for the past, when their life was objectively better, look at the midwest or the north of England. Those regions had swung hard to the right. I don’t know how the left can operate in such an environment, but we must learn how because deindustrialization isn’t ending any time soon.
>>276819 I agree, but why discount electoralism from being included in the category of class struggle? Even if futile, it is still a portion of the struggle.
>>276819 >We need to be organizing where we work and where we live, and not just to talk about a book for half an hour every week before going back to our lives. Organizing in meatspace is practically impossible. It takes time and effort to meet up and do shit, and no one wants to do shit after work. Many people don't even care about politics, they buy the propaganda and think everything is fine. I propose getting as many leftists into an anonymous chat room run by someone of relative trust. The chat room mods can pm people a chat room where the topic is about action to be taken geographically local to them. <general chat -> regional chat User joins general chat, maybe passes an interview, then privately tells the mods their imprecise location and the mods will direct them to their closest regional chat. And if the general chat decides on a plan and a deadline the regional chats will work out the details and logistics of how to execute the plan specific to their region. As an example they say that on the last day of March we all go and put up propaganda in physical space then the regional chats can come up with good places to put it, suggestions can be made where to get posters and flyers printed and maybe even more collaboration. If there are enough users the regional chat can be split again, so you compartamentalize the people and the information. Maybe glowies are in a general chat but there is less chance they will be in your specific regional one. I'm sure if we put our minds together we can make an impact to redpill more and more normies into leaning left. >>276819
The #1 problem the Left faces in the West is the deindustrialization and moreso the Uberization of the economy. The so-called precariat is actually just a nicer word for neo-lumpens. The gig economy is lumpenizing millions at an alarming rate, turning them into atomized drones with no connection to the means of production whatsoever and with zero opportunities of ever organizing. This breeds reactionary and solipsistic identitarian politics. There are only two ways out of it, either fuck muh purity and throw everything we have behind the first socdem who promises an universal job guarantee and to break up Uber and the like, or to have a Blanquist cadre take over the state and send everyone to the factories reverse Pol Pot style. Or just wait until the next great depression and hope fascism doesn't happen. Actual leftist organization is unthinkable until we destroy the gig economy.
>>274828 >i figure the reason why "the left" is not more popular is the same reason why "the left" does not support UBI >i don't know what that reason is Yeah you have no idea what you're saying at all and you're just rambling. Maybe come back once you can form a coherent argument?
Third Worlder here. Should I quit Twitter? It seems so Americacentric, even the "leftist" community in Twitter are just filled with Americans. Don't get me wrong, but communist Twitter is almost obnoxious to be in, and I feel it's more counterproductive than anything.
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>>276023 wasted effort cause your link doesn't work
Because of the defeat of the labor movement in the 80s, the collapse of communism in the 90s, and the acceptance of postmodern cultural theory at that same time; the modern day left is to begin with primarily concerned with academic minutiae, the academic BS the obsess over is specifically postmodern transgender theory and other theories about sexuality; the result of this is that the segment of the left that claims an academic connection to Marx is by now mainly twitter wokies that obsess over fetish sexual bullshit that naturally makes most people uncomfortable to begin with. On the ground the defeat of the militant workers and the end of social democracy has made it such that the modern left fights not for the World that may be but the one that was; modern day leftists actually fighting for workers rather than on twitter are social luddites seeking to return to the state of existence the imperial core once enjoyed, they are fighting not to create socialism, but to recreate the America of the Post-War Boom. These combined render the majority of the left in the West completely impotent and lacking in revolutionary potential. Not to mention those revolutionary elements that did exist during Occupy at the start of this decade wasted their time on anarchist tactics, as such they were easily routed and/or co-opted by the state.
>>277238 You should definitely quit twitter
Everyone should quit twitter.
>>277253 There's just something about these people lauding themselves as communists all around. Is there any explanation? I'm not the anti IDPOLer type, even though I come from a more conservative pipeline, but there's something obnoxious about the way Twitter is situated. Is there any reasoning or am I just petty and shallow?
>>277255 No these people fucking sicken me, I’m not interested in your mental problems and fetishes yet these fucking weirdos put them in their bio; twitter commies are utter autists and don’t actually interact with people IRL, it makes sense to want to avoid them.
>>274553 The left is at its best position in decades. You have class-cucked Americans striking in numbers that haven't been seen in decades while trying to elect a person literally calling himself a socialist, talking about how the working class needs to unite across all identities in order to take on the billionaires and corporations; and then there's continual growth in organizations like the DSA, SRA, IWW, and people establishing things like tenant unions. The Left hasn't been going anywhere the past few decades because it's been massively fucked by glowies and opportunists and trying to have a revolution in non-revolutionary circumstances, while resorting to bullshit like "activism" and protests instead of actually organizing. The situation is becoming revolutionary, all we need to do is Organize, Agitate, Educate and not get sidetracked with feel-good shit like activism and electoralism. >>274609 >elect someone else to fix your problems for you Electoralism is and always has been a dead end. If you want something from the government or anyone else, you take it through direct action. Wellmeaning socdems can be rendered ineffective or just sell out and end up doing fuckall, but the most ruthless porky will give in to absurd demands if there's enough people disrupting business-as-usual. Direct Action Gets the Goods >>277151 >Organizing in meatspace is practically impossible. It takes time and effort to meet up and do shit, and no one wants to do shit after work. Many people don't even care about politics, they buy the propaganda and think everything is fine. Such a ridiculously bad take should get you a 12 hour ban for effectively trying to demoralize. It's wrong on every level and sounds like rationalization for not doing shit. It's not impossible, people do it every fucking day, it does take effort and time and people are willing to do that if they think they can get something out of it, like a living wage or not having a boss treat them like a bitch. No one thinks everything is fine, no matter who they are or what their take is, people think shits fucked and something needs to change. >>277209 Another shitty fucking take. Precariats are some of the most ripe for organizing because they have the least to lose and the most to gain, it just requires different methods. You have orgs like the IWGB having success organizing gig workers, and shittons of Uber drivers have striked in India >There are only two ways out of it, either fuck muh purity and throw everything we have behind the first socdem who promises an universal job guarantee and to break up Uber and the like, or to have a Blanquist cadre take over the state and send everyone to the factories reverse Pol Pot style. Or just wait until the next great depression and hope fascism doesn't happen. Actual leftist organization is unthinkable until we destroy the gig economy. wtf is this analysis, how does something come to these conclusions
>>277260 Wrong on almost every level. Utter retardation and encouragement of failed, counterproductive praxis from a century ago Pitiful
>>277151 I agree we should organise online
>>277281 >failed, counterproductive praxis from a century ago What would that be, and how did it fail? As far as I know I'm not advocating propaganda of the deed, which fits both of that criteria.
>>274828 Vital services should be free anyway. UBI is just an overcomplicated (and more expensive) workaround where the government indirectly pays private businesses and companies to fulfil these needs. Just cut out the middle man: nationalise it all, and give people their food, water, housing etc for free. UBI, as a 'single policy', is of course easier to implement from where we are, but doing it isn't a step closer to socialism, it's just putting capitalism on life support
>>277360 It don't even puts capitalism on life support, UBI is shit economically through and through. Real life support for cappies would be some keynesian shit like job guarantee but that's too left for modern day porcos.
Reposted from the 'If President Sanders Wins The Presidency' thread as I thought it was relevant here: In the United States it's not a question of mobilizing the labor movement behind a social revolution: the labor movement must first be created almost from scratch, winning whatever gains it can via the means available. The issues facing Americans are: -Almost unmanageably low & stagnant wages -Complete corporate control of the American political system -Large numbers of people going bankrupt due to healthcare costs -An extremely overpriced education system which doesn't even deliver results -In some areas, skyrocketing housing costs. Americans want what many of their parents/grandparents used to have - a decent standard of living, the ability to form families, and upward mobility. Those sound like very mild demands but in fact young Americans have been facing a crisis for the past twenty years. According to a recent study, household income for ages 22-37 actually declined after the year 2000, only recovering to pre-2000 levels in 2017. Union membership, however, hasn't recovered since WW2.
>>277260 >No one thinks everything is fine, no matter who they are or what their take is, people think shits fucked and something needs to change. Where do you live? Anybody asking for change beyond humiliating libs or getting another racial minority into power is thought of as being a total nutcase fruitcake / soapbox sally.
>>276860 Electoral politics shifts us from struggling as workers to participating as citizens, essentially buying into the fiction as the state being an arena of class conciliation. Looking at how recent worker's/"leftist" have interacted with campaigns of social democrats, we'd be drawn away from struggling at the places of class conflict like the workplace. I think the Corbyn era of labor is the best example of this playing out, and the results have been terrible. >>277151 Back in the day you could be arrested just for being a socialist and workers were murdered for trying to organize, if those fellas could do it back then we can do it today. Retreating back into an obscure website to create redpills is going to be completely ineffective because we don't need people to be shown that socialism is better, we need people to start struggling against capital.
>>278292 Here's the thing, nobody can get behind change but many many people are disillusioned with the democrats and the republicans and generally think shit sucks. This manifests in retarded conspirautism or simple cynicism.
The left has had no real response to neoliberalism, not in that there aren't social democrat regimes or whatever, but the global supply chains that define neoliberalism and the basis of the world economy essentially HAVE to stand or else everyone's lives go to shit.
>>278679 Well they can't stand forever, climate change will fuck em' up soonish.
>>278679 decolonize your mind fam you can live without $2 fidget spinners
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>>274553 You want the real answer here that no one is willing to admit? Because Leftism (which isn't even confined to 'Marxism', whatever that means these days) is a religion without a central authority. It suffers the same fate as Protestantism: endless factions and splits because the demos interprets morality and political economy, not God through His temporal vessel (the Catholic Church). Epistemological subjectivity: no two leftists can agree on the proper interpretation of the foundational texts, no two leftists can agree on proper praxis. The only leftist movements that ever succeed are anti-liberal, centralist parties that claim their ideology as reality.
>>278689 do you have a non-question begging argument for the catholic church being the temporal vessel of god
>>278696 I didn't claim it was, I'm just saying the Church garners absolute legitimacy from such a claim. Sovereignty under liberalism is conferred by the consent of the governed...babes in the woods, anything's up for grabs. Ephemeral, paper-thin ideology.
>>274553 >Adorno Not a marxist. He misunderstood Hegelian dialectics.
>>278686 I can live without $2 fidget spinners but what about colton from the Congo which fuels every electronic device? What about rubber from SEA? What about oil in general? We need it for both plastics and medicine even if we're on a patchwork of nuclear and renewable energy.
>>274828 >you want programmer-minded people who spend their entire lives breaking down problems into their little atomic pieces and then proceeding in a systematic way As a programmer, who spends most of his time breaking down such "systematics" problems, this is a terrible mindset to approach political theory, which is more "dialectic" than anything. Science, like any dogma, leads to self-reenforcement, while philosophy attempt to emancipate from them.
>>275631 >ownership of a $100,000 degree is not that different than owning a $100,000 storefront. Ouch, that's not how social stratification works, but I agree academia (or "intellectuals") often come with petty-bourg mindsets.
>>278699 soveringty in a centralist regime like the early soviet union was predicated on the consent of the proletariat (at least in america) catholics don't actually agree with the church's social teachings I think things are more complicated than this grand narrative you are spinning.
>>278720 forgive my brutal butcher of sovereignty
>>277249 >defeat of the labor movement in the 80s The labor movement was defeated in the 70s, the 80s was the capitulation and the 90s the reaction. Shot were fired first in 1968, then at the end of Bretton Woods (early 70s, end of Vietnam war).
>>276023 You matrix room isn't public, and anyway, matrix.org is routed through CloudFlare, so your "private" Discord alternative is entirely readable/writable in clear by the feds.
>>274553 The left has become “reactionary-ified” basically the left has been reduced into people reacting against new political developments by the far-right or reacting against technological developments by silicon valley. The left is mostly devoid of any positive vision. The left is no longer fighting for anything, but is only fighting against any change from the right.
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>Why is the Left stuck in the mud? One reason and one reason only: The left's natural social base is disappearing. Marx's biggest mistake was failing to predict how the socialization of production can be reversed. All the social ills of the 21st century are the direct result of atomization.
>>279331 Explain further, not sure what you're getting at.
>>279355 We went from individual craftsmen working alone in their own homesteads, to massive 1,000+ factory shops, and now we're going back to tiny workplaces where you only get to see a dozen of your coworkers at once, and two of them are management. With "gig economy" bullshit like Uber, you don't even get to know that you have coworkers at all. Marx predicted that the 19th century trend of ever-increasing work groups would continue indefinitely. That there would be fewer and fewer organizers of production for more and more workers in close proximity. For a while it was true, but then the trend stopped, and in the Global North it has reversed. Small, atomized workplaces are not conductive to class consciousness. They actively inhibit organization. The porkies understand this, which is why they purposefully keep workers isolated but in close relation with their managers. No organized working class, no left. That's the story of the postwar decline.
>>279331 Not OP, but I think what he's referring to is how neo-liberalism's de-industrialization process has destroyed the left's old base of militant industrial workers and replaced them with finance/service workers who have no connection to the physical means of production which workers of old could directly sabotage or take themselves whilst workers of today cannot.
>>279395 >>279396 So what would be a way out of this for us? Trade unions could still work under this circumstance, but as you both say the conditions are totally different from the 20th century models they still largely fall back on. The only thing I can think of is to wait it out until climate collapse causes these bullshit jobs to collapse along with the global food chain, but that isn't really an option at all.
Its because Capitalism has created the conditions for the end of history. Every other revolution took the form of the middle class overthrowing the ruling class and instituting itself as the new rulers. But in Capitalism there is no middle class. Increasing there is only the Bourgeois and the labor aristocrats on one side along with the masses of proletariat so crushed by endless labor and propaganda that it is impossible they will ever be able to craft a theory of their own liberation. Allying with intellectuals like in the Russian revolution will always lead to a betrayal and a return to Capitalism, sometimes an even more brutal form. The world as it is right now is what the pendulum of history has stopped on.
>>279561 >The world as it is right now is what the pendulum of history has stopped on. Capitalism is still quite young, people who call it "late" or "end of history" are impatient and unimaginative. You could say everything before neoliberalism was just a transition. Feudalism didn't last only a couple of centuries either and it will be the same with capitalism. Well, if it can handle global warming, which remains to be seen.
>>274553 >Why is the Left stuck in the mud? Because most lefties are bourgeois lib fag retards who have abandoned the working classes and economic policy to fixate over lgbt rights and their pet third world imports? Nah couldnt be that
>>279621 The next great test of Capitalism, I believe, will be how it will respond when global food supply lines collapse along with the rest of ecological systems as predicted by Bendell and co. I can go into this more in detail if anyone wants but i'll leave it at that for now.
>>279660 I would like to hear more. I've been looking into land and vertical farming for this exact reason.
>>279561 This. One of the most perverse things being that the propaganda successfully makes people genuinely value their own pain, even as their finances dwindle, their physical and mental health fails, and their children's futures are laughed off.
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>>279672 It goes like this: Modern global supply chains are based on 'just-in-time' systems of distribution. In simple terms, this means that a store will only have enough supplies to stock the shelves and not much more. This is to cut down on storage space in stores and open them up to make more sales as well as pushing old stock out as soon as possible to keep the gravy train running. Then, we have the problem of ecocide. More specifically, the genocide of insect populations and the destruction of topsoil via agribusiness, both of which being linked. Insects serve as both pollinators via bees, wasps, flys, etc. and the maintainers of soil quality via worms, mites, bacteria along with birds who spread seeds through their excrement, nest-building and foraging. Agribusiness, with it's intensive mono-farming techniques (planting only one crop in a field which kills biodiversity), rampant use of pesticides (which are expected to kill pest insects but only kill their natural predator insects and make said pests stronger) and pollution of the topsoil with plastics and heavy metals like lead (all of which not only physically crowd out soil life but is indigestible and either kills soil life directly or passes through the food chain into you) is not only destroying the fertility of topsoil globally and artificially turning them into dust bowls in the near future but also making our current farming environments highly unstable and susceptible to pests, droughts and other natural disasters. All of this, along with many other things, has caused many environmental scientists (and anyone else paying attention) to believe that global food supply chains, which are based on imperialism, will collapse totally once climate change becomes too much to bare for these fragile systems of production and distribution our modern societies are based on. So, this begs the question, just what will the ruling class do once this takes hold? Will they leave us to just 'eat cake' and let us slowly die? Will they enact martial law to stop the few remaining storage of staple foods being taken back by us proles similar to what happened in 2005 after hurricane Katrina? Will they enforce strict rationing to keep us complaint just long enough to escape to Patagonia? Whatever the case, it will be like nothing we have ever seen before. 1/2
Because cis white men don't want to give up their privileged positions. That's the simple truth. White men ARE the mud, they want a socialism that keeps all the existing relations of capital but frees them. They don't give a shit about women, people of colour, indigenous people or anyone who isn't a white man. They basically want strasserism. I mean look at Stonetoss, he's now making comic strips that have a strasserist vibe to them. Tell a white male worker "hey, lets make revolution, you'll get a guaranteed job and get to keep the full amount of your labour" and they'll be all for it, until you also tell them that means the US must be destroyed, land must be given back to indigenous people and racism and sexism must be systematically ended, suddenly they're not so keen and would rather be fascists. Its sad but true.
idpol (crypto liberal)
>>279790 The unfortunate thing about all of this is that (apart from it being totally preventable via socialism) is that it's really realistic to begin subsistence farming for most-all people and expect it to feed you. If you're lucky and already have ample land and an already established staple food farm, you might have enough to survive this, albeit highly malnourished, but to most it is not realistic to grow the majority of your food yourself due to the destruction of the top soil and ecology mentioned above, but also due to most people now living in (sub)urban areas where arable land is rare and because of how the monopoly of capital is forcing most farmers to sell of their land to agribusiness conglomerates, which privatize said land and accelerate said destruction even more. This isn't to say you shouldn't think about making your own small food forest either in a communal plot or in your back/front garden (if applicable), you should, but don't expect that or the new technologies of permaculture, hydroponics or aquaponics to be able to sustain you due to each having requirements which rely on inputs only found in our current societies. Permaculture requires a lot of time, planning, knowledge and fertilizer whilst hydro and aquaponics require either electronic monitoring and self-regulating equipment (which requires electricity) or an incredibly complex and delicate system of irrigation via tubing. There's also the fact that as climate change really starts to bite us, most areas of the globe not close to either pole (that means most-all of the America's barring North Canada and Argentinian/Peru) will either become deserts or will have their rain and wind systems practically vanish, making farming largely impossible. In short: Capitalists have forced us into relying on a system essential to sustaining us that is unstable and unsustainable which could collapse any day now and is projected to collapse completely in 10 years due to the effects of their own refusal to plan their economy rationally in light of evidence telling them this would happen over 50 years ago have created.
>>279842 With all that said, I would still encourage everyone -if possible- to try farming with permaculture techniques, even if only to to gain experience with subsistence farming for when you'll need it. Most people in the Great Depression turned to small-holdings farming, kept small animals such as rabbits and chickens to eat and even hunted game if or when they could. These were all largely traditional practices from before WWII instigated our modern supply chains and farming practices. I do understand that most are not able to do most of these things currently, especially if you live in an urban apartment environment, but you can at least read-up and arm yourself with knowledge about these things as I have. I have attached 3 books that you'll all find useful, please read them when you can. Also check out the permaculture thread on this board (if it's still here) and search online for more info. Hopefully this all helped. Remember say 'нет' to the black pill!
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bump and dump
General question: Has there ever been any successful social/commune/anarchist revolution in a capitalist states where the majority of the population were actually proletariat and not peasants? The only one I can think of is Spain.
>>280227 Never has been, and there never will be. Peasants can do revolutions, but not proles.
>>280303 doesn't that discredit marx who said the first capitalist states to fall would be germany and france
>>280313 Lo and behold, they didn't fall.
>>280303 I think I can guess what you're going to say, But why not?
>>278771 We need a movement not a secret club. I can't believe how bad leftypol is at organizing.
Here's our Riot room: #RtG_bunkerchan_pass:matrix.org Hopefully this works now.
>>280564 Imageboards are not movements. We organize in real life, not on the internet.
>>274553 >>274553 >Moishe Postone, Theodor Adorno, Karl Marx, Robert Kurz , Amid (https://colddarkstars.wordpress.com/2 ), Andreas Malm, Slavov Zizek (maybe), Mark Fischer, and so on and so on. Nice recommendations, I am trying to read Adorno's work. I also think that it really important that we Marxists take back the critique of culture, this is something that has disappeared since the end of the 80's. A revolution will not happen from pure "economism" we need to create a counter hegemony, especially in the first word were we are slowly drifting off to a pure idealism in our ideology thanks to the domination of finance capital, social media and tech in general. A revolution here in the west will be brought about by offline and online mass movements, We need to build up again, stop those same debates about topics our fucking ancestors had in the first fucking international.
>>274553 Yeah learn more utopian theory that defy any empirical evidence. Socialism should not be about your feelings but what is best for the working class scientifically.
>>280838 Why the fuck would you not leverage a global platform for communication for planning and organizing?
Please bear in mind that I am no self declared leftist. A majority are fixated about what should be. Without acknowledging and interacting with what is. Endlessly pondering about a "grand plan" without taking action. This doesn't bring change. Intellectual and abstract thought is overstated in general. The vast history of mankind and with it the often mentioned material conditions, were changed and affected by zealots and their prophets. Not by isolated intellectualism. Some things should be discarded as a thing of the past. Idolizing dead movements and failed endeavors can't be a stable basis for a collective to change reality in the present. Many forms of leftism exhausted themselves over time others died in their infancy. People strive to imitate patterns without there beings a basis in reality. It doesn't help that many personalities appear to be to sacred to question or even be discarded. One can learn from the past but never idolize it. To much fixation on the past can't be helpful, if the ghosts of said past hinder one to act. Why venerate individuals of past ages? The past is gone. It will not come again. New and different forms of political reality will form. Some leaders and ideas of the past should be denounced and discarded. Why should one shoulder the ideas and fights of broken ideas and failed endeavors? Shall one fall into ancestor worship next? So as the stage of the revolutions of the 19th century were acknowledged and then overcome. So must the people of today overcome the revolutions of the 20th century. The past can guide one, but it is pointless to let it dictate deeds today. If needed discard the past. Destroy the fixation what should be, to begin working with what is. An observation of left currents on my part.
>>281405 Think (post) global, act local moron.
>>274553 Its stuck with Marx and cant learn from his mistakes.
>>279790 >>279842 What concerns me is if such a collapse plays out slowly and unevenly enough for capitalism to adapt to it. People underestimate how resilient capitalism is; climate change may destabilize nations and crash supply chains but the underlying decentralized system of social relations may persist. Capitalism can simply externalize the crisis onto the "losers" if it plays out slowly enough for enough of civil society to adapt to the damage being done. Think about all the people whose homes/businesses were wrecked by hurricanes and flooding in the past few years. Or migrants from Africa/Latin America fleeing drought and violence. Big, unexpected events can lead to a social outcry but if it's just a matter of the rate of impoverishment or the flow of refugees slowly increasing each year no one says anything. It will simply be normalized that more people will continue to suffer each year, that shortages and droughts will happen more and more frequently, but capitalism will continue on, and people will remain atomized and disunited because nothing has "shocked" the vast majority out of it. That's the real horror story, that human civilization will slowly be ground down so that even as things really get bad, people will 'accept' it and wage labor, commodity production will continue.
>>285712 You make a good point, although if current pessimistic estimates (which are routinely proven to be the most accurate) I wouldn't worry about things happening too slowly. Remember, this isn't just bombs being dropped every day where you live or water drying up over a couple of decades and whatnot, this is total collapse of all of the systems our society is reliant on. I don't want to be a doomer here, but things could easily devolve into Stalingrad levels of destitution within the next 10-20 years even for the most the most 'well off' nations. Sure, it won't happen tomorrow and all once. But it will happen sooner than any nation seems currently equipped to deal with even regarding the most minor problems presented to us. The current state of atomization only works if you can be convinced that no-one else is suffering, but I don't think anyone will be able to dodge the effects of what this coming. Not when they and everyone around them is starving. That is when most-everyone snaps.
>>274553 I think we need to admit that the dividing line in the left exists between those who are alienated from the oppressed and that it is because of them that the popular classes with the most insurectional tendencies were for a considerable extent recuperated by the rightwing fake radical "populists". It is disgusting how elitist and snobbish self declared main leftists can be. I believe we need to regain popular support by a vocal and offensive syndicalism and invest in autonomous voluntary organizations focussing on a non capitalistic offensive take on anything from educational project involving technology, sports , to neighborhood or street security committees
>>285558 I'm making the distinction between acting and organizing. In my opinion you can organize just as well as you can work an office job remotely these days. Technology should be exploited in our favor as much as possible comrade, it might be the only edge we have right now. Or educate me on your position, I'm all ears.
Repost from this thread >>288919 --------------------------- To put it simply, the revolutionary praxis of the 20th century is bankrupt. I don’t mean that it failed—failure could mean that it was correct but it just wasn’t strong enough. I mean that the entire way of doing things was wrong. I think that these historical forces might turn out to be an unexpected source of strength. That is, this utter bankruptcy could clear the path for a new social revolution. I don’t mean through so-called healthy forces or correct ideas replacing the mistaken and moving forward, but through letting all of this collapse, letting it completely fall apart. Today’s leftists are merely eating the corpses of the twentieth century. Even the corpses no longer remain, all that’s left are a few shards of bone, that’s what they’re eating. They’re still plodding away preparing for revolution in their secret reading groups—it’s completely pointless. We need a mental breakthrough, a qualitative leap. But on the left there’s this ridiculous phenomenon: lots of self-proclaimed theorists are always inventing all kinds of theories, criticizing others and then inventing their own. This way of doing things is clearly a dead end.[...] After many years of fumbling around, my conclusion is that the only way out is workers’ struggle. I mean, you can’t just read books and invent a new way of thinking on your own, far away from workers’ struggles…. You have to go and directly take part in them. And at the same time we need to look back at records of historical struggles and revolutionary movements, not to simply negate the revolutionary practice of the 20th century, but just the opposite: to discover things that have been overlooked, the mass practices in past revolutionary movements that have been ignored. All along, the left has been obsessed with programs, parties, lines, etc., but I think we should focus more on mass struggles, in particular workers’ struggles: how they’re organized, how they subvert the capitalist order from the point of production, how they deal with the problems of self-management, how their antagonism with the entire capitalist state is expressed. This is one thing. The other is to go directly to places where workers’ struggles are concentrated and participate, but exactly how to participate is something we’ve been trying to figure out for several years, and only in the past year or two have we finally begun to make a little progress. -Lao Xie http://chuangcn.org/journal/two/an-adequate-state/
>>289164 >We need a mental breakthrough, a qualitative leap. I don't know if this is a new thought, but has anybody considered trying to capture the anti-communist organisations of capital that are tasked with disrupting the organisation of the workers, and use the resources of these organisations to organize the workers.
>Repost from >>290055 Criminal "lumpen" here. It's fucking useless. All """socialist""" parties and orgs here are radlib or petite bouj. Like I'm not going to waste my life on dumb idpol struggles or policies that only help "upper-middle class" suburbanites I know a lot of people here would have me shot (especially MLs), but I'm no Lenin and don't have the patience for a "struggle" that hasn't gone anywhere for decades Mainstream socialists should really learn to keep it real. There are dozens of issues me and my friends and family face, and few of them are actually taken up by socialist orgs (notable ones anyway). So here's some suggestions; <Rents, Healthcare, Pensions, Wages, credit/student debt - These are the biggest immediate issues most working class people face. You can scoff at minimum wage hikes not being "real socialism", but if you want to pull people in you better promise some short term improvements instead of baiting them with useless utopian bs <Purge all small business owners and landlords - parasites have no place in a socialist movement. No exceptions. <Billionaires shouldn't exist. Landlords shouldn't exist. - This should really should be a no-brainer. Any """socialist""" that disagrees can fuck off <No fucking "muh small-business owners" - A workers movements should be for workers, not aspiring porkies. Yet it seems every """socialist""" party these days is filled with drooling retards gargling the balls of "small business owners". Fuck off <If you only show up for national elections every few years but can't be bothered to defend unions or tenants or anything local - Get the fuck out <Stop getting bogged down in "muh migrants" - Don't repeat neolib talking points but dont go full retard and act like right wingers, crack down on greedy business owners not workers, promote unions <Anti-racism but no race baiting - Always go back to class <Again promote unions - there's a reason things have gotten as bad as they are <Be like Lenin - Be willing to compromise on policy, but never on ideology Sanders is a step in the right direction, but most of the left is still depressing and a waste of time Disclaimer; tired and possibly drunk
Because Bernstein won the conflict over "leftism"
>>289164 Interesting stuff, especially when studied in parallel with https://www.tandfonline.com/author/Cheng%2C+Enfu
>>289164 >>290402 WTF is monthly review turning DENGIST now?

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