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Anonymous 02/11/2020 (Tue) 15:54:23 No. 270660
>In CIA interrogation manuals, learned helplessness is characterized as "apathy" which may result from prolonged use of coercive techniques which result in a "debility-dependency-dread" state in the subject, "If the debility-dependency-dread state is unduly prolonged, however, the arrestee may sink into a defensive apathy from which it is hard to arouse him. - Wiki fucking pedia >Leftist internet >Every day we spend not spending planning and educating we're fucking ourselves over. >They want us to loose all hope, and or even better, fall into conspiracy theories as well as actually believe that capitalist realism is the only viable system that exists. The kind of reasoning which is shown in practice from a lot of peeps on the left is pointless and frankly wrong. >I was organized some years ago, I had this one kid just straight up say to me on the topic of what his goals with this stuff really was: "I really just want to sit around in samll circles and talk about some text no one has never heard about" >Look at the world right now, the situation could explode into crisis tomorrow or in five years e.g, are we going to use the time we have to prepare as best as we can to make proletarian empowerment a reality or are we just going to kill ourselves? I think the former seems like the better option, but if you decide to off yourself, please, for the sake of your community, take some goldman sachs skyscraper with you or something... ( see picture, couldn't upload this shit due 2 file format: https://preview.redd.it/6v17p6r7rje41.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=af58de53d4fc5871a9fc7d60e77b5a9854602b5e TL;DR leftists who don't believe things can be different and can't act out plans long term are basically as bad or maybe even worse than the average bloke. Also; I don't judge anyone depressed etc, but we have to deal with shit together and do it long term, that cures both depression and capitalism...
>>270660 You’re addressing autists and/or neets here, I don’t think you’ll successfully motivate anyone without more specific advice
At this point I think when the proles rebel the left will be almost completely uninvolved, which is probably a good thing considering how shit the left is.
>>270699 You're not wrong. >>270712 You're not wrong either.
>>270718 So, how do we convince these sorts of people to make an effort at organizing?
>>270712 Honestly what even is "the left"? Call yourself a communist and chuck that petty-booj label in the trash.
>>270892 This is what I want to have a meaningful conversation about, the whole concept of organizing needs to be re-tought IMHO. I've seen to many shit cults and mainstream orgs. >>270903 Good point to be fair!
>>271051 Ok, so how would you revise it?
>>270903 >Honestly what even is "the left"? Anyone who isn't a fascist or centrist liberal I guess. >Call yourself a communist and chuck that petty-booj label in the trash. Most self-described communists have the same problems though, most of them have no real connection to class struggle and just identify with struggles they are removed from by thousands of miles or decades.
>>271098 Classic cadre organisations isn't feasible in the 21th cen. One should although, it might sound counter-intuitive cus i just said this about cadres form organisations like Iskra which takes theoretical and strategic matters very, very seriously to try and find feasable paths forward. Without such actions, we're ultimately just swimming in a bunch of dead but admittedly neat ideas. We need to revitalize Socialism theoretically to be able to bring on the challenges of today. I am very aware of how this is easier said than done, but without something like this, or something better if y'all can think of it we might be fukked as a species long term...
>>271130 I would kick soccdems out since they are just about keeping the current system as good as possible
>>271134 My org does some activities and tries to raise the theoretical level of the org simultaneously. It's like a cadre I guess, but we only get like 3 new members every year. Very frustrating. I don't see an easy way to build a larger movement. It would definitely requiere money, I think. Buy Facebook ads perhaps.
>>271152 The thing is, small orgs don't grow, and there is a reason why. This is my experience: The org "tries to raise the theoretical level" which it admittedly does somewhat, but only in regards to a orthodoxy internal debate focuses around establishing said orthodoxy, the same Comrade i mentioned earlier praised new members and I quote "dogma being well established", which is fucking nuts... Guess why I left among other things... Another problem is the focus on being social groups too much to keep people together even when there is nothing happening at all in terms of theoretical development, it's a new member every now and then but nothing else. Worse off: this leads to the general task of the orgs which is mostly just existing and hoping for better times, so they suck their members dry with donations to international comrades regularly etc. The money doesn't go towards development but mere sustaining of the orgs, wages for full timers etc, tickets to travel to international stuff for the most "advanced" Comrades etc. And this just keeps on happening due to the fact that the orthodoxy is so strong that no one may even suggest to maybe not spend money on e.g seeing comrades in some other country or publishing a new book etc, and just put that money in a heavily diversified portfolio on the stock market so that the org can stop loosing year after year due to inflation. You can hate capitalism all you want but if you aren't prepared to use your entire toolbox to abolish it and even make blatantly stupid decisions due to the sudden impulse of being "ethical under capitalism" which everyone usually rejects... Regarding the money question I checked out a org online where they stated how much comrades had contributed through the years which was a fucking lot if they could have used it better, but it all goes to upkeep of peeps working full time with questionable success... etc.
>>271135 At that point you've kicked out virtually everyone and would be better off just breaking from them.
>>271200 I'm inclined to agree about the limited usefulness of the cadre serving as a social group, though I think how else are we to instill loyalty and camaraderie among members? You also make an excellent point about the strict constraints we face if we're unwilling to fully participate in capitalism. So many of our comrades are revolted by such things, perhaps we should focus on recruiting malcontents from the financial sector? Surely there are people who found themselves in that world but hate it. I don't have a better idea than creating a group that researches and proposes strategy, but evidently you guys have met limited success with this. Fuck that's depressing.
>>271391 It isn't really that depressing since we are at least having the conversation. Dissitents from finance that were smart enough to realize that they just studied pseudoscience for like five years and have morals would be a great place to get some peeps, the resources you could suck out could fund real development, but only once there is properly researched stratergy! Stalin robbed a fucking bank, that isn't exactly as easy anymore, but pentesting is... And that's cheap af. But you first need a solid fucking theoretical ground before you start going bonkers like that. The part about loyalty; for those who want socialism and are serious, that's enough in my opinion, they will sick around even if they have some small time trouble if they see that serious fucking progress is being made. The only rule can be no orthodoxy and that the end goal of abolishing the value form isn't compromised with when the opportunity arises. A society with *total* commodification is waaaay more fucked up than any shit you could come up with trying to stay away from it...
Yea but how the fuck do I have hope when the internet is a window into how utterly retarded and brainwashed amerilards really are?
>>273610 Bernie just won in New Hampshire, check out the thread about American conditions for socialism >>189673 I think there's certainly more hope than ever before comrade.
>>271098 >Ok, so how would you revise it? Stop trying to be esoteric hipster faggots.
>>270660 >In CIA interrogation manuals, learned helplessness is characterized as "apathy" which may result from prolonged use of coercive techniques which result in a "debility-dependency-dread" state in the subject, "If the debility-dependency-dread state is unduly prolonged, however, the arrestee may sink into a defensive apathy from which it is hard to arouse him. - Wiki fucking pedia So if I am following correctly, you are saying that imageboards are a CIA plot to destroy mentally dissidents before they take action? That is a bold assertion anon, even bolder to make it on an imageboard.
>>273610 This is what they want to you believe, muricans are stoopid so nothing can be chaned ever, ask youself if it seems like a reasonable conclusion. >>273723 This, if some succdem cuck can do with serious stratergy and good plans, imagine what we acctually could pull of if we're systematic and work hard. >>273735 Yes also this. (some of this is just a bit of ranting but the conclusion is what I'm really about here) There is a lot of shit that should be dumped: Violent random smashing is retarded af, the anarchists need to either start sabotaging individually (aka. Stirner gang) or do it as parts of small groups with proper goals as to what this sabotage can achive, you just loose respect from peeps if you just brun som trashcans and shit. Stop trying to win over libtards, you have better chances to win over conservatives etc that have their whole worldview based on Fox news. Some conservatives even like Bernie now, this is what we should be doing. Not alienating the masses. But before anything even close to this can begin on a reasonable scale, a proper fucking scientific socialist research program needs to be established. Everytime anything worth speaking of has been done, this has preceeded it.
>>273806 >, you just loose respect from peeps if you just brun som trashcans and shit. I read this. And immediately I knew this sentence would soon follow: >Stop trying to win over libtards, you have better chances to win over conservatives etc Lemme guess you're a pol convert?
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I've only been red for a short while, but I believe OP is absolutely right on this one. The Left is so weak right now not because of SJW's, co-option, the alt-right or anything like that. We are weak because we seen to have no idea on how to adapt or invent new strategies for achieving our goals in the modern, post-industrial, internet era. Granted, atomization of workers, the centralizing of mainstream media channels both legacy and online and the surveillance state don't make our work any easier than is was before, but even just the existence of this site make it clear that the internet, and our information age holds fantastic potential for spreading agitprop and the like. Personally, the largest factor holding us back in that department is the inherent surveillance that is built-into almost all online platforms at this point, we could potentially be able to mobilize masses of people for all kinds of actions, but not if we are constantly being watched by porky and co. I believe people are ready for change, perhaps not armed resistance yet, but they are willing to listen to us now more than ever, but I believe right now we have answer to give them on how exactly we're going to get to where we want (need) to be in our material conditions.
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>>271200 Which specific orgs are you talking about, if you don't mind me asking? My guess reading it was the IMT. You also mentioned an org that published its finances online (which one btw?) - most orgs don't do that, but you can often get an idea of their finances through public election records divided by the number of members. Between membership dues, book sales and individual donations, traditional "Leninist" orgs have surprising financial power, pic related. I haven't seen it myself, but I've heard there's an MI5 report out there on the Militant Tendency at the height of its power in the 80s; they thought that the org had to have Soviet outside support, because there's no possible way that its members could raise that much money through sheer self-sacrifice. Like you said though, the bulk of the money goes to wages for full-timers. Those full timers then push for sectarian dogma against other orgs, fearful that dues-paying members could leave and threaten their job stability. Pic 2 related. You can't blame them though, because they're fucked if they do lose their full-time status - Porky isn't going to want a literal professional revolutionary on his payroll. It's hard to manage a large organization without any full time workers however, so we stand at a predicament.
>>271134 >Classic cadre organisations isn't feasible in the 21th cen Might I ask why cadre's aren't 'feasible'?
>>273791 You're not wrong. :) Step one is to kick the habit! (which I kind of have done, I'm just here like once every third month or something, unless I get something worthwile out of it...) But I mean this more along the lines of how conspiracy theories have started effecting large parts of the population to passify them. How do you keep people from socialism if they can use a search engine and knows what source criticism is? Exactly you fucking can't, so your only option is to funnel as many people as you can into conspiracy theory bullshit so that they just run around in circles and don't harm the increasing fragility of capital while they are generating ad revenue and wages. This kind of bullshit is so prevalent in a bunch of different configurations, flat earth, trumps campain against hillary(and ofc i hate hillary) etc. It even comes in leftist configurations, "we are the true trots, lone carriers of the heritage of the russian revolution but everyone is against us because they know we're right, the succdems, the libs, the stalinists, etc. It's just bullshit to keep together small ass social groups that doesn't do fucking anything and are therefore rendered harmless. >>273814 Me? A pol convert? Hahah!!! If I would even try to hang out with POL-tards they would stab me for reading Adorno and Marx etc. I don't really like essentialism, we need some "healthy mix" of structuralism and post structuralism however vauge that suggestion may be. But to take your reply as seriously as I can, which I want to do, because you might be a brilliant mind that we need. It might be reasonable that you've been thinking along these lines, so I'll try to explain where I stand in terms of my long entryism into the minds of a few friends who are into the alt right koolaid, they are not necessarily bad people, they are just soaked up in the current hegemony, which is easy to tell because they frequently agree when I utter some edgy shit like hang Shillray from a skyscraper.. They've litterarly just said that they just want to "shake up the esablishment" and I think this is a semi-reasonalbe proletarian impulse tbh, not to fetishize poor people but the thing is that for those who have hardly anthing voting is an act of desperation in dire times, you just opt for whoever seems able to fix what is currently fucking you up. Trumps win is a good example: Liberal establishment fucks the people, conservatives will too since it's basically the same thing, but the impulse is that "alright at least this guy adheres to my culture/seems more incompetent in fucking me up/is a successful businessman/is prolly not gonna make america great again but it might be ever so slightly better. The logic isn't even worth to be called logic, but it's more of a desperate screech... The lesson is however, not to get lost in BS, but to plan, research and execute, plan again and execute. >>273819 Yes the thing is that SJW's however you want to go about saying it, is essentially just liberals who have a good enough life to be able to have the luxury of being able to be nice. For that is a luxury, why common peeps (in the us) are afraid that "the gov is gonna take muh guns and property" is due to the fact that people are scared of loosing whatever little they have. The personal property and private property distinction is needed here more than ever. >>we seen to have no idea on how to adapt or invent new strategies for achieving our goals in the modern, post-industrial, internet era. Yes. But the thing is that we're going to be become better at it than they ever could have thought. :)))) >>spreading agitprop This is the time to think REALLY REALLY BIG, not small Comrade! >>Personally, the largest factor holding us back in that department is the inherent surveillance that is built-into almost all online platforms at this point, we could potentially be able to mobilize masses of people for all kinds of actions, but not if we are constantly being watched by porky and co. You're implying that just because we are being watched they will win. This isn't necessarily true. Even further, encryption is cheap as fuck and free software will make sure it's possible to get real sufficiently private convos in the future. As well as end to end encrypting already encrypted messages, like as far as communications goes, you only need a small sized group to be able to keep up with the snowden style communications. This is what I'm on about regarding something like Iskra for research. >>I believe people are ready for change, perhaps not armed resistance yet, but they are willing to listen to us now more than ever, but I believe right now we have answer to give them on how exactly we're going to get to where we want (need) to be in our material conditions. Throw out armed resistance from your thinking right now, revolutions doesn't really look like that in western states today IMHO. >>273849 You're totally correct, nice job Comrade. They've published what they've got from donation campaigns online frequently, and I've got a reputable enough source regarding how much they take in from membership. And all and all I can just say that upkeep is what gets done, rent gets paid, books get printed, and what really doesn't get done is proper non dogmatic research, that's the issue with the standard cadre orgs that they centralize belief in a already established program, and they are GREAT at doing that, but when your program is fucked, that attracts peeps that usually aren't very bright, and those who are you guessed it, leave since they see that these people are beating their heads against a brick wall. https://medium.com/@pplswar/a-marxist-sect-cant-become-a-political-instrument-says-arash-tehran-6321abf5f4ad Here is an article that (very roughly) deals with some of their issues. >>273850 See rest of the thread, this reply and >>273849
>>273856 >This is the time to think REALLY REALLY BIG, not small Comrade! ...Okay but how? Sorry if I sound stupid, but I have only been in this crowd for a couple of months at best and I don't have any lefty orgs near me, so I don't have any experience with organizing strategy or anything like that. I just don't know man, I haven't got any resources at my disposal (no job) and I'm not well read yet. I think Late-stage Capitalism has robbed from young people like me the ability to think outside conventional boundaries, which bites me on the ass in times like this. I only said propaganda since that's what i'm good at making, seemingly. I agree it's not enough, but considering my situation (no income, no car, no local orgs, no close friends nearby or previous experience) I don't know what the hell I can do except infiltrate pre-existing neighborhood and outreach groups to breadpill them and read theory otherwise. >that's the issue with the standard cadre orgs Apologies, I misunderstood what you mean by 'cadre'. I still think of cadre like an underground group of like 5 people doing covert operations and stuff, guerilla style.
>>273876 same poster I'm pretty scared right now comrades. I know that we CAN win and the situation is NOT hopeless, but I (and i'm sure a lot of people here) just have no clue on what to do with ourselves. I want to help the cause and get people on our side, but i've got no resources to begin from. I can print books and pamphlets and share memes and PDFs to high-heaven, but I know that isn't what will help us to win right now. I don't want to be terminally online, but there is so little going on where I am right now and I have no idea where to start with making on org of my own considering my material constraints (as noted in my previous post). I've got the energy and I'm willing to sacrifice myself for this cause - considering what we believe is to come, most won't have a choice in the matter - but I just have no physical outlet for this drive.
>>273876 We need a new theoretical program before we can undertake any practical work really, not as in "let's write a program for our party lmao", but we need to figure out how we best approach changing the material conditions of real people in a systematic matter that is empowering. Some people say dual power is great, but I'm sceptical, I've been looking a lot at Mondragon as something that could be built opon, but I think it's might be best to mix a solid theoretical foundation with long term political as well as "economic" stratergy to overcome the capitalist mode of production and the violence it asserts over everyday consciousness as we know it. I currently favor the Kurzian view (although hell convince me otherwise i'm ready to lisend) in which capital fundamentally is what is the social cohesion component within capialist society as religion was before it emerged, we somehow need a program to transcend these forms of thought which are all too prevalent... By cadre I hear mean: We have a program, the working class is just sleepy we just need to read more of theory X, please donate your spare change to buy airplane tickets to this 78 year old bloke who knew someone who knew someone who was hella revolutionary 58 years ago etc. A cadre org is something that is to be built reasonably late, not early, it's not a fix it all solution. The thing about your predicament is that you need to help yourself to help others, it may hurt but drop what is keeping you down as much as you can. You can't even get the time to think if you havn't landed the basic stuff yet. Get the most basic bitch ass job you can find, there are lots of resources online regarding making a good CV etc. And apply to everything, it doesn't really matter if you send the same standardized shit just slightly tweaked to 200 companies really. Once you got a job, just do it, don't mess anything up, get paid, go home. Once you've got some income you should be able to secure some form of housing. Do you need a car? You def prolly don't need local orgs because they are mostly shit tbh. Regarding friends etc, we're you're Comrades and you'll find more, if you're nice to peeps and try to help them out as much as you can that will get you friends eventually trust me. Once you got housing and a job as well as transport (collective preferably:) you end up with a certain amount of spare time. Utilize this to the best of your advantage to get read up on leftist theory, avoid dogma, and as marx said: "ruthless criticism of all that exists, ruthless both in the sense of not being afraid of the results it arrives at and in the sense of being just as little afraid of conflict with the powers that be." That's the mission, find peeps who think along the same lines and want socialism. You have no clue what to do with yourself because you believe that you can't do anything, once you let go of that everything changes. realize that you can't do everything today, but what you can do today leaves time to do more tomorrow. If you're still stuck in this predicament next week on monday and havn't really gotten anywhere I can get on some discord from here with you or something and we can talk about it, in my experience it's mostly that we tend to focus on stuff we can't change instead of what we acctually CAN do. I've talked wit Comrades in similair situations before and got em' running, peeps usually have a lot of potential but they believe that they can't go for it for some reason. You got this! :) Any more thoughts comments criticisms?
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>>273930 I've got a Riot account if you don't mind us talking on there? I really do appreciate the advice and encouragement, I know I can do something good if I try! I'm all wound up and ready to run, but I need a straight path or i'll fall off the table (so to speak).
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>>273952 Before I forget, I am the guy who made these pieces here. I say this because I think advice on praxis and physical action that works is what I most want to see on The Left right now and this was my way of remedying this in my own way (not sure how successful I was/am though...).
I’d be down to chill on riot&shit, it would be nice to have a place to actually talk, since everybody here is megatriggered by discord.
>>273987 Okay, if you haven't yet, make a Riot account and send your username to this dummy address: [email protected]
>>273995 >>273987 You can make your own dummy email using this site and send your username through it to my dummy email: https://temp-mail.org/en/
For anyone interested in guides and resources for organizing actions where you are, there are some great resources near the bottom of this thread: >>235465
>>274018 Sweet thanks my guy, kind of good guides, and sweet design and everything but seriously catgirls must go as much as everyones inner neckbeard that has been fed too much of growing up with 4chan etc needs to take a step back. I will return and drop you a mail. I've never used riot service for mail, also who owns it? I would rather rely on pidgin or something like that than something that might as well be owned by the us gov. riot might b legit but I don't know yet. I really, really need to work now but I'll get back since this proved somewhat fruitful! :) >>273987 Everything proprietary needs to die in the long run :) >>273952 We'll get your ass a path, patience is key right now! :) >>274018 Set up a longer lasting tempmail and I can drop my discord (which we shouldn't even use long term but w/e it's good for now) if it's you >>273952 / >>273952 who wrote that...
>>273995 >>273987 >>273952 [email protected] Drop it 2 me while it's hot. Just realized that tempmails doesn't really expire that fast... Discord preferably, do u guys seriously use the chat service of riotgames? Or is it that anarchisty email service? That had me confused for a while...
>>274108 I sent you a message to that address, hopefully that works.
>>274108 Also, Riot is a messenger program that presents itself as being a secure version of Discord. It has P2P encryption and is open-source and stuff like that. https://about.riot.im/
>>274121 Didn't get shit :( >>274124 Oh sweet hell i'm getting that then
>>274126 Okay, tried from a different address, hopefully you get something now.
>>274124 aight got it. downloaded riot
>>274131 Got it my guy!
>>274132 Invite me to a room and we can get started!
>>270660 We're inviting peeps to a riot chat if you're interested in helping the left forward.
>>274146 To clarify the Riot group is called 'Revitalize the Left', if you want to join.
>>274150 The name was just something, we can have a discussion regarding it, as well as to set up good aims.
>>274150 We're going to start of regarding general perspective, like: what should be undertaken, what needs to be revised etc, what authors of theory that are recommended/good. I'm going to go first and just namedrop some shit: Postone,Adorno etc,Marx, Kurz, Amid (https://colddarkstars.wordpress.com/ 2 ), Malm, zizek maybe, Fischer, and so on and so on
please contribute by suggesting more authors that you fell you're able to justify in their content in terms of developing a really good framework/theory to go forward, not in their cult standing within gommunist circles etc.
>>270660 Good thread! We should actually actively encourage positive thinking on this board. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRx1BdQAf0w
>>270712 The lumpenproletariat will never rebel, because the bourgeoisie will keep them just barely comfortable enough to lull them into apathy, and restrict their education and media consumption so that they will never be exposed to proper revolutionary socialist ideas, the closest they will get is the watered down controlled opposition version of social democracy.
>>275608 >The problem is your emotional attachment to the doctrines of Marxism I'm unaware of a better economic model. > "Because of fascism x happened" Doesn't sound like a materialist analysis to me, but sure. > "Because of capitalism y happens" Yeah, do you have better explanation for the phenomena we analyze here? >if communism would be established you'd still be depressed at least i'd have accessible treatment and therapy. Do you have any questions on marxism or some other concept?
>>275608 >"Marx is right, muh empericism, muh LTV, muh science, idealism wrong, muh falling rate of profit" yes
>>275608 I think you don't know what you're talking about fam
>>275620 I know the basics of marxism so no thank you I'm an idealist, fascist to be specific and i have come to shitpost in this board. Abandon Marxism like uncle been friend, materials relations are gay and don't matter. >>275621 Pure emotional cope, will you let me psychoanalyse you?.
>>275623 I will not agree or disagree
>>275626 well fuck, I was going to cut this short and redirect you to another thread, since it was kind of derailing this thread. But it failed and I only deleted the first. Why don't you make a thread with your beliefs and explaining why marxism is stupid.
>>275608 OP here, I love the fact that we got a response like this that just screams divert attention and energy away from actually creating some neat-o ass materialist theory to achive #gommunism in the 21th cent. You're wrong in your determinism, try reading a or two or just try slightly grasping how nature works.
>>275621 Don't go so hard on the guy, it's hard to grasp interdisciplinary stuff. Let him have his religion.
>>275627 Jung. 2020. Ok.

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