/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Proletariat without Borders

catalog
Mode: Reply
Name
E-mail
Subject
Message

Max message length: 8192

Files

Max file size: 20.00 MB

Max files: 3

Password

(used to delete files and postings)

Misc

Remember to follow the rules


/leftypol/ is a non-sectarian board for leftist discussion.

IRC: Rizon.net #bunkerchan
https://qchat.rizon.net/?channels=bunkerchan

(132.21 KB 535x424 Settlers.png)
Anonymous 01/13/2020 (Mon) 21:17:29 No. 212025
Settlers is a controversial work. I have my opinions after having read it and interacted with its fan base. That isn't the point of this thread though. I want to know who J. Sakai is. Does anyone know what the J even stands for? Why doesn't he have a wikipedia page? He's supposedly done a handful of interviews with some obscure lefty publications but their authenticity cannot be verified. There are no pictures of J. Sakai on the internet. His life story is a jumble of rumors. Nobody even knows if he's alive anymore. Supposedly he was a Japanese American who was put in an internment camp during WWII and later became active in the west coast radical scene during the 70's and 80's. That is literally all we know. Am I really that crazy for entertaining the idea that this man is entirely fictional? A glowie even? Nobody else in the world (besides maybe Qanon) commands this much implicit cult-like trust among his fans despite lacking any public presence.
Well I only know from past threads here. I think there are pics of him at book signings tho. Also in recent interviews he's said the conditions have changed since he wrote the book
<EC: In the early eighties you wrote Settlers: Mythology of the White Proletariat, a book which had a major impact on many North American anti-imperialists. How did this book come about, and what was so new about its way of looking at things? JS: Settlers completely came about by accident, not design. And what was so "new" about it was that it wasn't "inspiring" propaganda, but took up the experience of colonial workers to question how class really worked. It wasn't about race, but about class. Although people still have a hard time getting used to that – it isn't race or sex that's the taboo subject in this culture, but class. Like many radicals who struggle as organizers, i had wondered why our very logical "class unity" theories always seemed to get smashed up around the exit ramp of race? At the time i'd quit my fairly isolated job on the night shift as a mechanic on the railroad, and was running a cut-off lathe in an auto parts plant. The young white guys in our department were pretty good. In fact, rebellious counter-culture dope smoking Nam vets. After months of hanging & talking, one night one of them came up to me and said that all the guys were driving down to the Kentucky Derby together, to spend the weekend getting drunk and partying. They were inviting me, an Asian, as a way of my joining the crew. Only, he said, "You got to stop talking to those Blacks. You got to choose. White or Black." Every lunch hour i dropped in on a scene on the loading dock, where a dozen brothers munched sandwiches and had an on-going discussion. About everything from the latest sex scandal to whether it was good or not for Third World nations to be getting A-bombs (some said it was good ending the white monopoly on nuclear weapons, while others said not at the price of endangering our asses!). Plus the guy from the League of Black Revolutionary Workers in our plant area had recruited me to help out, since he was facing heavy going from the older, more established Black political tendencies ( various nationalists, the CPUSA – who had great veterans, good shop floor militants – etc). And, why would i go along with some apartheid agenda anyway? Needless to say, the white young guys cut me dead after that (though they later came out for me as shop steward, which shows you how much b.s. they thought the union was). That kind of stuff, familiar to us all, kept piling up in my mind and got me started trying to figure out how this had come about in the u.s. working class. So for years after this i read labor history and asked older trade union radicals questions whenever i could. Finally, an anarchist veteran of the autoworkers' historic 1937 Flint Sit-Down strike told me that the strike had been Jim Crow, that one of the unpublicized demands had been to keep Black workers down as only janitors....or out of the plants altogether. This blew my mind. That's when it hit me that the wonderful working class history that the movement had taught us was a lie. So i decided to write an article (famous writer's delusion) on how this white supremacy started in the u.s. working class. i didn't know – maybe it was in the 1920s?, i thought. So Settlers was researched backwards. i knew what the conclusion was in the mid-1970s, that white supremacy ruled the white working class except in the self delusions of the Left. "No politician can ever be too racist to be popular in white amerikkka", is an amazingly true saying. Settlers was researched going back in time, trying to find that event, that turning point when working class unity by whites had dissolved into racial supremacy. 1930s, 1920s, pre-World War I, Black Reconstruction, Civil War, 1700s, 1600s, i kept going back and back, treading water, trying to touch non-white supremacist ground. Only, there wasn't any! By then it was years later in our lives, and i'd been recruited into doing national liberation movement support work. And was reading Black nationalist writings. One day i caught a speech in which u.s. whites were referred to as "settlers", meaning invaders or interlopers, as in South Afrika and Rhodesia. Of course, white history always talks about settlers with the non-political connotations of pioneers or explorers or the first people to live in an area (native peoples didn't count as real people to euro capitalism. They were part of the flora and fauna). This was a moment of the proverbial light bulb turning on in my mind! First chance i got, i asked the UN representative of an Afrikan liberation movement if he thought u.s. whites as a society, including workers, were settler oppressors in the same way as Rhodesians, Boers,or Zionists in Israel? He just said, "Of course." Upset, i demanded to know why he didn't tell North Americans this. He only smiled ironically at me, and i won't even bother telling you what certain Indian comrades said. So Settlers didn't involve any great genius on my part, just finally listening to the oppressed and what the actual historical experience said about class. Finally. From there it was hard research work, but no conceptual leap at all to see that in general in u.s. history the colonized peoples have been the proletariat, while the white working class has been a labor aristocracy. This has been camouflaged in capitalist history by retroactively assigning white racial membership to various european immigrant peoples who weren't "white" at the time. For instance, when leading u.s. capitalists started the "Interracial Council" to promote patriotic nationalist integration during World War I, the "races" they wanted to bring together were the Irish race, the Welsh race, the Polish race, the Lithuanian race, the Hungarian race, the Sicilian race, the Rumanian race, and other Europeans that we now think of as only nationalities within the white race. Shows you how race is another capitalist manufactured product. So groups who we think of as "white" today, were definitely not considered "white" in the past. Like in the Midwest steel mills just before World War I, when native-born American WASP men were all foremen and skilled workers – what was called "white man's work" – while the back-breaking laboring gangs were made up of "Hunkys", Eastern Europeans. Like immigrant Finnish workers, who weren't citizens, didn't speak English, weren't considered white but "Mongolian", who were oppressed like draft animals in small town mines and mills in the Northern Midwest, and who made up something like 60% of the total membership of the early communist party. They wanted armed revolution right then, just like against the Czar, and most of them were actually imprisoned or deported. Wiped out as an oppressed class and national group. It's a long distance in real class from those oppressed revolutionary women and men to the middle-class pedants and would-be commissars of today's Left. Settlers goes through this real class history. https://libcom.org/library/when-race-burns-class-settlers-revisited-interview-j-sakai Sounds interesting actually.
>>212075 J. Sakai's stunning revelation that racism has existed for a long time at all levels of society-- revealed in only 9 short paragraphs. What a fucking hack.
>>212117 Writing to radicalize liberals doesn't make you a hack.
>>212075 So he took anecdotal evidence from one guy and made an entire thesis out of it already knowing what his conclusion was... what a retard
>>212125 Radicalize them towards what? An even preachier, more pathetic self-loathing brand of liberalism?
>>212125 Read Frantz Fanon instead.
>>212130 If he wasn't real then what the hell was The Ego Book.
>>212150 Ghost written by Engels
>>212152 So Engels drew a picture of a man in his mind called him Max Steiner and so all the steiner memes are basically just engels memes
>>212163 >if you don’t like Sakai your a /pol/tard
>>212163 >if you’re not a black Nazi than you’re a white Nazi! Cringe and racist pilled. Asian nazbols have feelings too you know.
>cult-like trust among his fans despite not really
>I want to know who J. Sakai is. Does anyone know what the J even stands for? Why doesn't he have a wikipedia page? He's supposedly done a handful of interviews with some obscure lefty publications but their authenticity cannot be verified. There are no pictures of J. Sakai on the internet. His life story is a jumble of rumors. Nobody even knows if he's alive anymore. that's probably because of obsession with security typical for american pseudomaoists. Ross Wolfe from "the Charnel house" may know something about Sakai. He was in friends with Noel Ignatiev (who died recently) who knew Sakai and was one of his best friends. https://thecharnelhouse.org/2019/11/10/noel-ignatiev-1940-2019/ >Supposedly he was a Japanese American who was put in an internment camp during WWII and later became active in the west coast radical scene during the 70's and 80's. where is this information from? preface of Settlers? I don't even remember him saying this >Am I really that crazy for entertaining the idea that this man is entirely fictional? A glowie even? you are definitely not the first person to think this (see the picture) the only thing which can prove he is real is this interview https://soundcloud.com/decolo/j-sakai
>>212075 Don't know why people are butthurt about this, it's reasonable. There's a reason hitler wanted to emulate manifest destiny with Russia.
His real name probably isn't j Sakai. Let's do this like detectives: who do we know on the left who is Asian and at least 50 years old
>>212025 >Am I really that crazy for entertaining the idea that this man is entirely fictional? There's interviews with him, but I think he's kind of suspicious either way.
>>212130 >/x/ Jesus dude
>>212345 Spooks (both kinds) are paranormal
>>212311 Here's an interview with him. This apparently what Sakai sounds like, for future reference. https://youtu.be/t3p2xf8NdRg
>>212351 How is J. Sakai "race baiting"?
>>212163 There's a long history of Sakai getting shit on here. If you don't know that then you're a new fag.
>>212351 I think it was done genuinely, which is the problem.
>>212354 >How is J. Sakai "race baiting"? Well ok maybe that's not the correct expression. Anyway is the article i linked correct ?
>>212365 >I think it was done genuinely, which is the problem. I just listened to interview in >>212353 And I think you might be right about this.
>he's asian ironic, given their income
>>212075 Wow! This is a shockingly not at all radical or suprising claim!
>>212075 This was a nice read. Kinda changed my mind about him.
>>212075 >institutional racism meme lol
>>212431 semi-reformed /pol/tard detected
>>212302 Because it isn’t sucking white cock and justifying white Americans proles betraying the working class for racist faggotry
>>212075 I thought he was black, and realizing he was Asian, in retrospect, made me like him more. My settler mentality is real :/
(26.56 KB 307x268 ftgubh.jpeg)
>>212438 you need to immediately go the exorcist to get your settleristis fixed
>>212421 where is the multiracial category
(163.19 KB 410x530 white-black-worker-power.png)
>>212455 >where is the multiracial category you mean the actual working class
>>212431 Middle class and bourg asians probably Chinese, Japanese, Korean, lower income probably vietnamese, cambodian, phillipino etc
>>212466 >lower income probably vietnamese depends on wave, alot of Vietnamese immigrants are die-hard supports of the South Vietnam government.
>>212302 >>212437 Because it’s bad theory that only makes surface level sense before you really examine his conclusions, and that its now obvious he worked backwards from those conclusions to find the answer he wanted.
>>212431 It exists, but Sakai is a moron
>>212488 Is there more to it than just discrepancies inherited by marginalized minority families and racism being taught and continued by certain other families?
>>212506 It might be a bit more complicated, but I think you're on the right track. There's also often a cultural component that reinforces "the discrepancies inherited by marginalized minority families". Frantz Fanon gets into this in "The Wretched of the Earth". Like Sakai, he examines institutional racism alongside colonialism, but their conclusions are much different despite using similar language.
>>212487 >hmm I found something, I should investigate it <wtf he's investigating something, clearly he's a fraud
>>212506 If by "discrepancies" you mean the grueling cycle of poverty, then yes
>>212515 He didn't just "find something". He formed a conclusion preemptively. It's peak stupidity
>>212514 based Fanonposter. highly recommended reading, esp. for our formerly reactionary or spooked brothers. his writings on violence will unironically make you think
>>212531 How is that bad? This isn’t hard Science
>>212562 Then it doesn't prove anything, it's just further speculation
>>212566 A lot of these stuff are.
>>212569 Agreed, but it's also expected for fields of study that are essentially in their infancy
>>212294 >hitler is the most radical figure >supports the kmt wtf, what are the sources for these claims?
>>212531 >He formed a conclusion preemptively. Explain.
>>212580 I did.
>>212581 read it again
>>212585 No, explain your point you fucking pseud.
>>212586 Level-up your reading comprehension skills you fucking illiterate
>>212587 >not my job to back up my dumb assertions. Ok retard.
>>212588 >It's my job to read to you It's right in the fucking text you stupid fuck
>>212589 So you could have spent 10 seconds copy pasting what you think would back up your position, or you could cry and whine for 5 minutes. Good to see you have your priorities straight.
>>212591 You could have fucking read it instead of whining how I'm not reading it to you, entitled prick.
>>212593 Still refusing? You must not be very confident in your position.
>>212596 Bro, I'm not trying to taunt you like this is DBZ battle. It's right in the text. ffs
>>212480 Vietnamese Americans are the most cucked group of Asians in America. Willing to work with the feds to continue slandering their own country like good gusanos they are. They have more in common with Cuban gusanos than anything else, It’s a disgrace to most of their countrymen.
>>212125 He did more to radicalize the right than anything. Class divisive pos
>>212294 >friends with Noel Ignatiev Well that's the least surprising news I've heard all day
>>212596 I'm not even the anon who posted the comment, but here's the part you somehow skipped. >So Settlers didn't involve any great genius on my part, just finally listening to the oppressed and what the actual historical experience said about class. Finally. >>212606 Wasn't the class already divided? Or do you disagree with him entirely?
>>212598 Dude I fucking told you I read the text, clearly I did not get what you got from it, so I want you to elaborate on it. What the fuck is the problem with that?
>>212609 >but here's the part you somehow skipped. Aha, and how does that mean he "worked backwards from those conclusions to find the answer he wanted."?
>>212612 here you go dumbass >So i decided to write an article (famous writer's delusion) on how this white supremacy started in the u.s. working class. i didn't know – maybe it was in the 1920s?, i thought. So Settlers was researched backwards. i knew what the conclusion was in the mid-1970s, that white supremacy ruled the white working class except in the self delusions of the Left. "No politician can ever be too racist to be popular in white amerikkka", is an amazingly true saying. Settlers was researched going back in time, trying to find that event, that turning point when working class unity by whites had dissolved into racial supremacy. 1930s, 1920s, pre-World War I, Black Reconstruction, Civil War, 1700s, 1600s, i kept going back and back, treading water, trying to touch non-white supremacist ground. >So i decided to write an article (famous writer's delusion) on how this white supremacy started in the u.s. working class. i didn't know – maybe it was in the 1920s?, i thought. So Settlers was researched backwards. i knew what the conclusion was in the mid-1970s, that white supremacy ruled the white working class except in the self delusions of the Left. >write an article (famous writer's delusion) on how this white supremacy started in the u.s. working class. i didn't know – maybe it was in the 1920s?, i thought. So Settlers was researched backwards. i knew what the conclusion was in the mid-1970s, >white supremacy started in the u.s. working class. i didn't know – maybe it was in the 1920s?, i thought. So Settlers was researched backwards. i knew what the conclusion was in the mid-1970s, >Settlers was researched backwards. i knew what the conclusion was in the mid-1970s, >Settlers was researched backwards >was researched backwards >i knew what the conclusion was happy now you lazy faggot?
>>212610 Nothing at all man, I misunderstood your tone when you and the other anon were going back and forth. >>212612 So my understanding is that he's claiming to have accepted what people told him about whites in the U.S., then worked backwards from there to substantiate this conclusion. This creates confirmation bias when he could have instead gathered and analyzed evidence before drawing a conclusion from his research. It doesn't make his ideas automatically wrong or anything, but it does call his method or way of approaching them into question.
>>212622 Okay, and he clearly did not find the answer he wanted; a time that racism took over the working class, which defeats your entire point that he's supposedly biased towards a position. Everyone can see that white supremacy is a thing in the US, that's a "conclusion" that doesn't need to be elaborated on. Most of the time when we make a scientific theory we do it because we observe a phenomenon we want to research, aka "working from a conclusion". He remained scientific when he did not find the answer he was expecting.
>>212640 Stupid purposeful contrarian cocksucker can't differentiate between his "c"s and his "k"s and you expect anyone but complete schizoids to look at this work and say "yeah, this is empirical"?
>>212643 >waaah Well okay.
>>212640 > Everyone can see that white supremacy is a thing in the US, that's a "conclusion" that doesn't need to be elaborated on. no no no, you slimy fuck. the conclusion wasn't that white supremacy exists, the conclusion was that white folk are whether worker or not have been the enemy of socialist revolution. the catalyst for his "writers delusion" was when a random anarchist told him that "one of the unpublicized demands of the strike had been to keep Black workers down as only janitors....or out of the plants altogether."- without even going into why this is completely anecdotal and unverifiable, his conclusion is one much extreme than mere white supremacy being a thing in US, it's one where he outright DENIES the white worker being a worker at all! >"From there it was hard research work, but no conceptual leap at all to see that in general in u.s. history the colonized peoples have been the proletariat, while the white working class has been a labor aristocracy." this quote also showcases to all how feeble his understanding of marxist theory is, labor aristocracy is just as a much a wage slave as the proleteriat is. the engineer making 100k a year and a mcd's worker making 45k are both proles in the fullest sense of the word. and want to know what the best thing is? it literally doesn't matter what sakai's conclusion is, the "sakaists" have already shown us that the conclusion of settlers is that all white people are labour aristocracy and settlers and all of them have to be deported to wherever the fuck their great-great grandparents came from, and that the US needs to fully belong to indigenous people. Not only is this completely pants on retarded, how in god's name are you going to deport all white people from the US??? it's also, optics wise, even WORSE. no fucking white 9-5 30k a year worker is gonna join your retarded movement if they're being excluded and being called labor aristocracy based on their race lmao. as a sidenote burgers are moronic, stop obssessing about race you cringy fucks.
Why would black people even be considered proletarians in America? Even if their ancestors were enslaved, they've had 150 years to make amends and return to their homeland but the vast majority haven't. African-Americans can be extremely insular and prejudiced towards Latinos and Whites, and at every turn have pursued petty-bourgeois aspirations of owning land or businesses instead of broader worker solidarity, even within their own racial groups. "Forty acres and a mule" is a reactionary settler-colonialist trope, but it continues to be clung to today, as middle-class blacks shamelessly clamor for their spoils of American imperialism in the form of reparations. The real Sakaist conclusion is that there is no black proletariat either. The entirety of Amerikkkka should be depopulated and the land turned over to the First Nations/Native-Americans.
>>212655 >as a sidenote burgers are moronic, stop obssessing about race you cringy fucks. So much this >>212668 >The entirety of Amerikkkka should be depopulated Marx told us to seize the means of production, he didn't say to start sorting people by geography
>>212655 This.
>>212691 The U.S. should be divided between Mexico and Canada tbh.
>>212120 >Settlers is bad cause it's anti-american >also the USSR was imperialist opinion discarded
>>212576 from "The Shock of recognition" >Adolf Hitler. Mein Kampf. Houghton Mifflin, 1971. p.373-378. Although Hitler’s rep has required critics to always badrap his book, it’s an exhilarating rip-roaring rant that easily roars past most left political writers. It is overly long, but so is the much duller Das Kapital. Supposedly a slimmed-down popular version, with the repetition and long detailed discussions about specifically German issues omitted, will be coming out next year.
>>212025 you can also send mail to [email protected]
>>212668 >Even if their ancestors were enslaved, they've had 150 years to make amends That's not how "making amends" works.
>>212655 >the conclusion was that white folk are whether worker or not have been the enemy of socialist revolution. No, the conclusion was that white supremacy ruled the white working class of America, you slimy fuck.
>>212765 The point is that black Americans are settler-colonists just as much as white Americans are. Slavery and sharecropping have been abolished, but I don't see black people banding together to hold land in common, return stolen territory to the natives, or abolish capitalist social relations. Instead they're fighting for their piece of the petty-bourgeois imperialist pie just like every white American.
>>212668 based use of the same retarded logic as settlers to reach an equally retarded conclusion.
>>212806 That's probably the point
>>212807 you never know. now it's obvious here >>212797 but just wanted to spell it out.
>>212797 >The point is that black Americans are settler-colonists just as much as white Americans are. Ha ha ha ha slavery is still legal in the United States and black people are still enslaved via the prison system they are not equals for settlers as you Proclaim saying someone had equal rights because the government wrote it down on a piece of paper and said they do is because liberalism
>>212075 Tbh Sakai's great flaw isn't in making the uncomfortable observation that much of the white proletariat is racist, its in all his other conclusions. First, he ignores the numerous examples of non-racist socialist organizing in America such as the efforts of the IWW, SLP, CPUSA, etc., and before them the abolitionists. which while smaller than more mainstream labour organizations like the AFL or Knights of Labour, were still significant, and formed the core of the radical worker's movement. Second, he massively exaggerates the problem when he unironically dismisses the white proletariat as a "myth". They're objectively not, even in the heyday of the white middle class, white workers were still subject to exploitation, just less severely than their racialized counterparts. Before the New Deal, they were in fact exploited quite brutally, even if blacks still had it worse. Second, he fails to distinguish between two types of superstructural formation, which can be seen as top-down versus bottom-up. A top-down superstructural element is one which is effectively fabricated by the ruling class and imposed on the rest of the population via ideological state apparatuses. Bottom-up meanwhile refers to those superstructures which emerge organically from the conditions of existence of a particular class. Sakai doesn't distinguish between these, and this is a fatal mistake as far as race relations in America go. I think its safe to say that while the racism of a suburban upper-middle class white family in the 50s may have been bottom-up, emerging from the bourseoisification of their position, this isn't the case for every white worker. A dirt poor coal miner in Appalachia doesn't hold racist views because they have internalized a bourgeois mentality, nor do the conditions of their existence lend themselves towards racism. On the contrary their racism is entirely artificially conditioned via ISA's. This is the only place from which it could come, because unlike the suburban middle class the bourgeois order does not serve any of their interests, and thus they have no need of being insulated from subversive elements (such as minorities). In the case of the suburbanites, racism can genuinely serve their interests in a sense, in that it protects their privileged position from the genuinely poor proletariat, which is a highly racialized category in America. This is not the case for the Appalachian, whose interests are actually undermined by racism. Bottom-up racism is genuinely difficult, if not impossible to dislodge. Top-down racism is much easier. In the case of the former you would actually have to convince people to go against their own interests, whereas with the latter its an issue of getting people to see where their real interests lie. Third, as others have pointed out, Sakai's description of minorities as a genuine proletariat and revolutionary element doesn't square with the reality. Blacks, despite their conditions, are not revolutionary, and haven't been for quite some time. Not only this, but the class formations which have fueled the great groundswell of bottom-up racism (ie the bourgeoisification of the white working class) are already severely decayed. This opens that demographic up to dissatisfaction and radicalization.
>>212873 Black people were literally settlers though. They helped settle the west, dislodged and genocided native Americans, and to a large degree reap the benefits of imperialism as all Americans do. The fact that they don't benefit as much as whites do from this does not erase their place in it. Not to mention that while blacks are disproportionately affected by prison slavery, it isn't an entirely racialized issue, and poor whites are still subjected to it. It is and has always been a class issue, and while class may correlate with racial distinctions, it is not wed to them. This looking at these issues through race is flawed, idealist, and requires one to rely entirely on generalizations and trends which skew one's viewpoint.
(24.28 KB 188x338 medal.png)
>>212883 >>212887 good post
>>212887 In addition, when looking at absolute numbers there are more whites in poverty & suffering from police brutalization than blacks. But, according to someone like Sakai all of these people are "labor aristocrats" because they have white skin. It's insane.
Some of Sakai's analysis into the reactionary views of the white working class still holds up but the narrative that Sakai draws up on how the white working class is a myth is a bit outdated at this point. Hell Sakai even says at the end of settlers that Euro-Americans are needed in getting rid of settler colonialism. The book is an interesting read but it falls flat in a lot of areas. Sakai-ists are a weird radical sect and aren't as logical as they think they are. They act like weird dogmatic cult like most Maoists but I do see the potential in post-colonial theory as it relates to organizing the black and Brown masses.
>>212980 >looking at absolute numbers there are more whites in poverty & suffering from police brutalization than blacks. Absolute numbers are worthless. There are more whites undergoing shit than blacks coz there are more whites undergoing stuff than blacks.
>>213018 Very true, but I don't think they were claiming that white people have it worse. It reads more like "this is a very large number of clearly oppressed people."
rather than this >>212075 I think the following is the actual illuminating passage of what settlers mission is >EC: Would you say that organizing within the present-day white working class is hopeless? >JS:[...]This obsession with needing a social majority has nothing to do with being "practical". What it has to do with is bourgeois and defeatist thinking.This is like the left thinking that could not build a practical anti-fascist movement in Weimar Republic Germany during the 1920s and 1930s, although millions hated Nazism and wanted to do something, because that German left was too preoccupied with fantasies of either seizing or getting elected into state power for itself. < That left was too lost in delusions of success almost within their hands, delusions of maneuvering together a majority, to bother even really understanding fascism coming up fast in their rear view mirror. >The urgent need was to organize a working minority to counter fascism in a much more radical way. Not by trying to defend liberal bourgeois rule. All the real things that had to be done by scattered German anti-fascists later after the Nazis were put into power – such as to survive politically, to significantly sabotage the war effort, to rescue Jews and Romany and gays, to build an underground against the madness of the Third Reich – all these things were attempted bravely but largely unsuccessfully, because they had to be done too late from scratch. This is a much larger subject, too large to dive into now, but it is on the horizon, like the smoke of a distant forest fire. Sakai isn't advocating for not organizing with whites, he's saying to stop dreaming of bringing together all the white working class, because some of them while workers, aren't true proletariat. Its honestly not much different than the accepted wisdom of today that the PMC are anti-socialist despite being technically in the working class. Hilariously its probably been easier to swallow the PMC pill because its not explicitly racial. So we can say sakai should have avoided hurting white peoples feelings and maybe things would have gone better for his book.
>>213432 sakai wrote about how in the past "white" meant anglo-saxons, and they only did "white mans work" while east europeans weren't white and did the more burdensome labor. Only later did the definition of "white" expand to include larger parts of europe. Today we can say that the definition of "white" has expanded to include even non-whites. As "white man's work" has transitioned to "pmc work".
>>213437 so if someone wanted to write a follow-up it'd be something like "the mythology of the woke proletariat" also also, a nice freudian slip people ITT commit is thinking they read "the *myth* of the white proletariat" when thats not what the title is. criticizing a mythology is different from saying something is a myth.
>>212514 Thanks, I'll have to read it. I've done a lot of looking into the economic aspects of the left but I think how racism and poverty both can be inherited is pretty interesting. >>212516 Yes, partially, though I'd imagine the legacy of domestic slavery would have other emotional effects. Speaking as an American, it's hard to scrub a nation of an institution that lasted so long as slavery.
>>212887 It's worth noting that Native Americans in the Five Tribes adopted slavery from Europeans. https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/native-americans-adopted-slavery-white-settlers-181225180750948.html
>>213493 >>212887 >>212980 these are racist propaganda. it doesn't change anything about the raced character class system at large that some very few nonwhites owned slaves or that settler-colonists very quickly made up a great majority of the population
>>213592 >it doesn't change anything about the raced character class system at large that some very few nonwhites owned slaves or that settler-colonists very quickly made up a great majority of the population Yes it does actually, it undermines Sakai's entire narrative. Sakai's whole argument centres around the belief that because whites benefited from imperialism and colonialism, they cannot be a revolutionary subject. However the fact is that blacks have benefited from these as well. In the obvious sense you had literal black settlers who were driving natives off their land and killing them alongside the white settlers. In fact there were entire black regiments of the US army that participated in the genocide of native Americans from 1866 onward. Many blacks also joined the westward migration and settled lands that had recently been depopulated. In some contexts they were even overrepresented, for example they made up a full quarter of workers in the cattle herding industry in the late 19th century, which was a key part of westward expansion. Then you have the fact that literally everybody in America benefits from imperialism. Blacks still buy cheap clothes made in Bangladeshi sweatshops. They still buy fruit grown by Guatemalan peasants. They still buy chocolate grown by Africans at gunpoint. Finally, there is hardly a whisper of the revolutionary sentiment that Sakai claims ought to exist among the black community. The fact is that race and class in the US overlap in all kinds of ways, but they are not synonymous, and class remains the fundamental dividing line in society. Blacks were not in all situations the victims, nor were whites in all situations the perpetrators. What radlibs need to understand is that while America may be built on racist foundations, racism was effectively incidental. It was a product of the specific way in which class relations unfolded. However it cannot be ignored that in some situations (ie the settlement of the West) those relations unfolded in different ways, and thus produced different racialized class relations in which blacks were sometimes the oppressors, and in which whites still very often found themselves to be victims of other whites.
>>213048 The post I was replying to include this though >according to someone like Sakai all of these people are "labor aristocrats" because they have white skin. Which I don’t think is fair to Sakai and it is based on shit interpretation of data. Sakai (and I) could easily say white people may not all be labour aristocrat but whiteness is the biggest sign of it. Also this namefag is a brainlet that regularly post his shitty edgy chauvinistic socdems on stupidpol. Never trust a fucking rose.
>>214055 >Sakai (and I) could easily say white people may not all be labour aristocrat but whiteness is the biggest sign of it. That's basically just saying that white people are more likely to be labour aristocrats, which is true. However that's a far cry from claiming that there is no white proletariat as such.
>>213592 >racist propaganda No, natives owned slaves. Though it is very important to remember that slavery was not a native american construct, rather something borrowed from European colonials. There's even descendants of slaves owned by the Creek suing for recognition of citizenship on the reservation: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/02/black-americans-native-creek-nation Of course, the amount of native slavers is nowhere near the amount of white ones, but it was still pervasive in the Five Tribes. Some tribes, such as the Choctaws and Chickasaws went as far as to sign treaties with the Confederate States during the civil war, born of mutual interests. https://books.google.com/books?id=E4hxWwCClG0C&lpg=PA603&dq=Treaty%20with%20Choctaws%20and%20Chickasaws%20%20July%2012%201861&pg=PA603
Sakai having a normal one >[a]lthough Hitler’s rep has required critics to always badrap his book, it’s an exhilarating rip-roaring rant that easily roars past most left political writers. It is overly long, but so is the much duller Das Kapital >"At the same time [I] was working as an Asian houseboy for the family of a Jewish used car dealer (stereotypes abound for a reason)." >American Empire, Not ‘If’ But ‘What Kind?’” is a typical headline in the liberal JEWISH N.Y. Times." >The post-liberation Black 'socialist' men’s gerontocracies in South Africa and Zimbabwe are killing more women and children with their deliberate AIDS plague right now than the u.s. empire did in eleven years of invasion in Vietnam. Many more killings than Hitler did Jews. Remember that funny Black cultural nationalist line from the 1980s that Africans are the supposed 'Sun people', genetically predispositioned to be more humane and civilized than those admittedly nasty 'Ice people' from Northern Europe? Clowns don’t always make you laugh. Looks like he was based and redpilled before it was mainstream.
>>212609 He was like the extreme opposite of a class reductionist in the worst possible way.
>>214114 >there is no white proletariat as such. Doesn’t sound like Sakai was saying that though>>213432 More like Sakai thinks whites will never fully embrace their proletariat status.
>>214729 you can even say that Sakai is the worst kind of class reductionist. Because he thinks race=class position
>>212438 All the worst SJWs seem to be Asian for some reason I'm not racist I swear
>>214731 But if you accept that argument, it's easy to turn it around and say black people will never embrace proletarian status either. In fact, there's probably enough historical evidence to say that any subaltern group can be successfully bought off, atomized, and peacefully incorporated into capitalism if given sufficient legal and material concessions. Basically Sakai doesn't go far enough, racializing the proletarian divide doesn't lead to anything good (but it does provide ammunition for ethno-nationalists). >>213432 Socialism doesn't need a social base? Communists didn't fight fascism during WWII? I don't even
>>214770 >Socialism doesn't need a social base? Communists didn't fight fascism during WWII? I don't even That's not what he's saying.
>>214770 >In fact, there's probably enough historical evidence to say that any subaltern group can be successfully bought off, atomized, and peacefully incorporated into capitalism if given sufficient legal and material concessions. Sure and it seemed like Sakai wrote the book to explain why were the whites are in this particular hot seat. >Basically Sakai doesn't go far enough, racializing the proletarian divide doesn't lead to anything good Did Sakai made any normative claims or argument.
>>214731 sakai DOES think that there is no white proletariat in us >Now, there obviously is a white working class in the u.s. A large one, of many, many millions. From offshore oil derricks to the construction trades to auto plants. But it isn’t a proletariat. It isn’t the most exploited class from which capitalism derives its super profits. Far fucking from it. As a shorthand i call it the “whitetariat”. >From there it was hard research work, but no conceptual leap at all to see that in general in u.s. history the colonized peoples have been the proletariat, while the white working class has been a labor aristocracy.
>>214755 I once had a conversation with an ABC that was a radlib and I was giving her the 'idpol separates class' argument and she was like 'race and class in America is so intertwined anyway that clouds your class stuff.' and I couldn't disagree based on my knowledge of American history. I am not american btw.
>>214828 >'race and class in America is so intertwined anyway that clouds your class stuff.' This is what I mean't by Sakai's reasoning forcing you to rely on generalizations. People talk about the extensive overlap of race and class in America, but in focusing on it its easy to lose sight of the boundaries of this overlap. For example one might make the true statement that prison slavery disproportionately affects black people. From there they go on to talk about this issue as if it exclusively affects black people, even as hundreds of thousands of whites are subjected to the same injustice. In other words, they take a general trend and treat it as an absolute truth, even in cases when the majority of victims of a particular crime are not people of colour.
>>212599 >their own country Spooky AF >>212294 >friends with Noel Ignatiev Based
why does everyone here seem to think settlers is a work of Tim Wise-theory when it's basically just good maoism?
>>218986 Because they are the very people Sakai is criticizing. When they’re Boomer parents die and they get their inheritance all the burger leftists on this board will become Republicans. >>219062 Based.
>>219064 >When they’re Boomer parents die and they get their inheritance all the burger leftists on this board will become Republicans. Umm, What inheritance? The Majority of Boomers don't have much money and all of their assets would probably go up in smoke during a crisis.
>>219077 >Another white burger pretending to not own property. The average equity (assets - debts) of a white family is 100k. The average for blacks is 4 k. 70 percent of all whites own homes. I feel dirty for typing that, it’s not like your swayed by facts.
>>219090 >70 percent of all whites own homes. And most of those homes are bought on mortgages or on debt. So technically the banks actually own their homes.
>>219064 there's no such thing as "inheritance" for poor people, you nigger.
>>219096 >So technically the banks actually own their homes. No they have a lean. >>219097 >the n word Say it again, makes the board look as racist as it is. >there's no such thing as "inheritance" for poor people, Some with 100k in equity is not poor.
>70 percent of all whites own homes. >most of those homes are bought on mortgages or on debt >No they have a lean. Can I get citations on any of these claims?
>>219062 >>219064 >muh only wealthy raycists can criticize our holy book!!1!
>>219106 >>219062 >muh you are huite so your arguments against Suckai are invalid Sakai makes some racist remarks>>214712 >well, thas ok because he isn't settler this is some galaxy brain New Afrikan shit
Holy fuck will you faggs shut up. You're ruining a perfectly good thread. No one cares.
Bantu people in central and south africa are settlers, so are turks in east asia
>>218986 >good maoism Found your problem

Delete
Report

no cookies?