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/leftypol/ is a non-sectarian board for leftist discussion.

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Debunk thread Anonymous 01/09/2020 (Thu) 22:06:09 No. 206527
It would be nice if we could properly debunk some /pol/ memes/other untruths, especially the more common ones. Starting off with this old screenshot:
>class is an inevitable and natural thing thats not true, pre-class societies were how humans operated up until a short while ago >2.[...] none of that is how the dialectic works as used by hegel or marx. Furthermore its vague what they're talking about when they say that dialectics was applied to the legal system and agriculture. 3. race matters more than class this is easily disproven by taking a look at history itself, which is moved through class struggle, not races or cultures 4. this is just misusing words, none of those words mean that 5. the greatest economic success stories in the 20th, and so far 21st, century was the USSR and China, both led by marxists. All that shit about critical theory is wrong. the vast majority of what falls under critical theory is actually hostile towards hegel and freud, and its only very recently that theorists like zizek have brought back dialectics and psychoanalysis into the mainstream Got kinda lazy writing this so idk if its proper but i really cant find the energy to argue with /pol/ memes
>>206527 I regret reading that.
>>206609 >thats not true, pre-class societies were how humans operated up until a short while ago Classless societies exist right now too.
There is no point in arguing with a /pol/lack with logic. You simply emasculate them by dunking on them and constantly attack their character. Calling them all cucks is unironically the only winning move.
>>206637 The point isn't to win against them. The point is to win over the onlookers.
>>206639 Onlookers on /pol/ share /pol/lack views. This thread would be better against centrist types who largely speaking don't have much convictions.
>>206643 Don't debate them on /pol/. Debunk them in a neutral area, so that the people they try to recruit see it.
>>206649 This! We should attempt to bait in newfags from other boards instead. Not only to counter their growth but to also grow our own notoriety. Make threads unironically discussing communist shit on other boards just like /pol/bait in retards with terrible bait like rockthrow, sjw butthurt and such.
>>206637 >>206649 This is good advice. Most pol tards have retarded views and try to ad hoc the evidence after the fact, it's not a logical mindset. They come to a conclusion and then make up evidence for the conclusion not the other way around.
>>206527 Oooh, I’m a Brainlet but let me try: 1.Thats not what class is, at least by Socialist standard. Children of former bourgeois rising up in the ranks doesn’t in any way invalidate Marxist class, as it is based on ones relation to the means of production and not on personal ability. 2. Philosophy isn’t my strongest point but I have a feeling this dude knows even less than I do. 3. Won’t Humans Form Group identities on anything? There are even people killing each other for Affiliation for sports teams for gods sake. The point is not that this group identity motivates people more than that group identity, it is that group identities like Culture or Religion are purely subjective (“feels” or spooks) while class is an actual MATERIAL Interest you share with African or Muslim Proles. 4.Just... Dogmatism? Isn’t that an issue with all ideologies at some point along the way? Also Strawman, I think there is no ideology with more petty squabbles than communism. 5. Not even an argument, just an insult How did I do?
>>206527 Alright I'm going to try and actually effort post for once 1. >Class is inevitable and natural It may have been inevitable. The material conditions of the first civilization may have required class. For example Mesopotamia. You have rivers that would flood at random moments and since, ofcourse, science was not a thing, people blamed the gods. So you need a group of people to be able to talk and reason with the gods creating a class of priests to do just that. And since they had the power with the gods, they were also the kings so the city they inhabit since they speak for the god that city represented. But Today, class can easily be abolished, we have no need a man to speak with gods, there is no reason to have a group of people to own capital while everyone is reliant on them for survival. >Natural Class isn't natural. Humans of the Paleolithic Age had no class, everyone was a equal participant on their clan. Since this the beginning of human history, this would also be human nature at its rawest so we can conclude that class is natural and only came about in beginningbof civilization when human relations grew more complex. >nomenklatura This is a fair criticism. A main point made by more Libertarian Socialist tendencies is that they point to the flaws of the USSR especially in their bureaucracy where a politician in Moscow can dictate how a factory in the Uzbek Soviet Republic will operate despite not understanding the material conditions due to unreliable economic data so common in the country's history. But then again, the material conditions of the country needed this crypto bourgeois class since feudalism had only been established 50 years before the Revolution. 2. That's why we use Dialectical Materialism. Marxists analyze the material conditions of a period and then arrive at a synthesis. Lets use France. There is a Aristocratic class who own the land which there serfs work on. There is also a bourgeoisie who profit mostly off the trade on commodities. These two classes would contradict each other as the Bourgeoisie would question the Aristocracy's and their King's legitimacy during the enlightenment. This eventually lead to the French Revolution where the Bourgeoisie overthrew the King and abolished Aristocratic rights establishing a economy based on the trade on commodities since it favored the bourgeoisie merchant class rather then the land owning aristocrats. 3. Class struggle is the basis of history. Did the Celts and Latins have perpetual conflict in the Roman Empire. No. Was there big conflicts between African Slaves, Amerindians, White Spaniards and Mix raced people in the Latin American revolutions when they overthrew their Colonial rulers. No. Those were started because the Latin American bourgeoisie felt threaten by trade laws imposed by the Spanish Crown. An example of class struggle. >WWI Wars of Imperialism have been used historically been used as a way to unite all classes in a common goal in lets kill people of that other country instead of the guys who are sending you to kill those other people. Remember how the Social Democratic Party of Germany was radical pre war but then throw that out that window in favor of the war. Thats why Liebknecht created the Spartacus League. Unite the Social Democrats that opposed the war. 4. We don't see a rejection of Marxism as a failure of the people. We see it as the ruling class try to skew Marxism away from Proles such a easy lies such the famous gorillions nonsense. See Cultural Hegemony and Supersctucture. >escape moral culpability for their actions A common misunderstanding of us that we're all the same. Come here for 10 minutes and that's instantly disproven. There are many tendencies here such Marxism Leninism, Left Communism, Anarchism and a bunch of others. We all have different degrees to which we respond to this "moral culpability". A ML might say it sort of happened based on material conditions and an Anarchist might say it show the flaws in State Socialism. I am to assume this anon is a Nationalist. So how does a Nationalist account for bad stuff done by their country. He says that was in the past but where different now. So how does that differ from a Communist saying something along the same line. >Frankfurt School I wouldn't say it rethinks Marxism. Marcuse had worked with the US State Department and Office of Strategic Services. (Proto CIA). And he later rejected class struggle it self and never really tried to update Marxism. Adorno and Horkeimer where influenced by Marx especially their criticism of enlightenment and the use of the culture industry but never rebranded Marxism in a different way. 5. >Marxism is very complex Anon just admitted he doesn't understand Marxism.
There's a better version on the booru, though the one in the OP is different from the one you posted if that's what you meant.
>>206755 >Did the Celts and Latins have perpetual conflict in the Roman Empire Didn't the Celts rebel numerous times, as a people, against the Latins (Romans)? >Was there big conflicts between African Slaves, Amerindians, White Spaniards and Mix raced people in the Latin American revolutions when they overthrew their Colonial rulers Did they even mix all that much during the revolutions? It seems Amerindians fought alongside each other, as did blacks, Mexicans, etc. Mostly it seems areas were naturally divided by ethnicity. Any examples of cooperation?
>this old screenshot >2017
>>206889 Time flies when you're using it well. Heck I have nostalgia for half a year ago.
>>206890 It’s just that there are way older /pol/ copypastas that are still being posted today
>>206527 lol it's pretty funny seeing them talk like experts about subjects they obviously don't understand, the amount of concentrated bs in these post is impressive
>>206883 The only major uprising was in 60-61 AD lead by Boudicca. I was mostly referring to that in the terms of Pax Romana. >Any examples of cooperation? Vicente Guerrero was mixed between African and Mestizo, was a big leader for Mexican Guerrillas and the 2nd President of Mexico. Migual Hidalgo y Costilla began the Mexican Revolt and gather support of both White Spanish Soldiers and Indian Estate Workers. There symbol Our Lady of Guadelupe who was the "dark virgin"
>>206609 >thats not true, pre-class societies were how humans operated up until a short while ago Counterpoint: Advanced societies like those of the modern age require class and hierarchy.
give me one (1) example of actual class struggle in all of human history human history is class collaborationism under unifying banners of race or nation or tribe to go and steak and kill and murder and rape the neighboring tribe/race/nation who has shit that you want
>>207019 French Revolution
>>207019 the Haitian revolution is the exact opposite of what you said. Poles realized they were truly black men and abandoned all other identities to aid their fight for liberation.
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The replies to the pic in the OP are rather lackluster, I think. Someone go ask Ismail over at eregime.org about it, see what he can say. Also here's a WIP
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Debunk this >Video from outside cell during Epstein’s first ‘suicide attempt' deleted – after being lost & found https://www.rt.com/usa/477864-epstein-suicide-footage-deleted-lost/
>>207028 Jewish merchants and other French petit bourgeois uniting under the banner of french nationhood destroying the French aristocracy to expand their power >>207040 more jews >>207048 various mullatos, QUADROONS and purebreds uniting under the banner of race to chase out the white ruling class
>>207071 >People unite in regards to their class interests > "But Jews" Pathetic. Your first example doesn't even deny class struggle, it just puts Jews in front of merchants and French in front of petit-bourgeoisie as if both of those aren't emerging capitalists. The expansion of power for both of those groups by destroying the French aristocracy is by definition a class struggle.
>History, race and culture form stronger bonds than economic class. WWI was a clear demonstration of this Does this anon live in fucking Kaiserreich?
>>207198 Do you even need to ask?
>>206527 >point 2 >I’ve learnt about Hegel from Wikipedia
>>206527 >national identity is stronger than class identity <ignoring 1000s of years of human history and prehistory
>>206527 1. It's only impossible to abolish class distinctions if you ignore Marxist definition of class and instead think that class means "people calling the shots". Nomenklatura people were significantly less powerful compared to modern cappy polititians, their jurisdiction being really limited and their influence didn't extending beyond it. They could lobby for shit to make their lives slightly easier at the expense of the whole economy but their individual power was nothing until Gorby fucked it up. Not to mention they all worked for a wage. Compare it to a billionaire today who can fly to any location in the world, do drugs, fuck a child and get away with it because he can bribe literally everyone.
>>207214 It's not even the first time I see that take. The event that was responsible for communist revolutions and labor movements forming all over Europe because millions of soldiers were disillusioned after rotting in trenches for "god and country" while porky partied home...somehow *clearly demonstrates* that communism doesn't work because nations are more important than class? The fuck? Scratch that, even Kaiserreich had communist revolutions after WW1, they just happened in different countries. I don't know where these people live.
>>207220 They think communist revolution is a small bunch of commies taking top spot in the big gubmint palace that gives them mind control powers over the rest of the population.
>>206639 /pol/ becomes less and less relevant with each passing year. there's literally no point.
Oi little too to you bunch of cunts who keep making these wide ass screenshots. Shrink your browser horizontally so the text is in a smaller column. It is easier to read for people with dyslexia and on smaller screens.
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>>207328 >Let's cater to phoneposters
>>207328 simple as
>>207054 Because the original /pol/ post was pure sophistry, that's what they do. Tenuous links between names and events until they can weave a fantasy out of it.
>>207218 Source for the Nomenklatura bit?
>>207218 I want to be a billionaire
How did the Nomenklatura work? Even if they didn't own the MoP, couldn't they still control it and effectively own it that way? Were things really unequal in the Soviet Union as many critics say, that the Nomenklatura had things a lot better than the rest of the people?
>>210027 If I remember correctly the book "Revolution from Above" cites a figure that the highest paid Soviet officials earn no more than 4 times that of an average work, compared to like it being 15 times more in some capitalist country. Which I don't remember. I have no doubt people in high positions held extra privilege but it would be silly it was even somewhat comparable to any capitalist society.
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/leftypol/ will NEVER debunk THIS!
>>210027 Nomenclature refers to the list of jobs that needed party approval. Stuff like local administration, top enterprise administrators, top military shit, university rectors, chief editors in media, diplomats, all kinds of positions. Party could approve a local guy climbing the career ladder or appoint their own so there's big potential for nepotism for really comfy positions. The only criteria to be a part of "Nomenklatura" club was to be on the list, what you can do with it depended on the actual position. Not all of nomenklatura people were elites and not all elites were part of nomenklatura. Soviet factory administrator didn't really compare to porky factory owner, he didn't extract profit from workers, got a wage like everyone, albeit higher. He didn't own the factory and could be removed if he fucks up the plan (this lead a lot of the bosses to cook up numbers and "lobby" gosplan to decrease output so their job is easier, really fucked up the economy but pretty much opposite of what cappies do) They were more PMC than capitalist. Nomenklatura specifically being a separate class is a liberal meme, only applicable if you determine class by income, they didn't have separate class interest from the rest of society. They were the ones that supported the restoration of capitalism the most for a chance to become actual capitalists, though, and used the chance when pizza man gave it to them.
>>206527 >1 Muh human nature >2 Random liberal anti-Hegelian argument that got btfo hundreds of years ago >3 Muh human nature >4 Fake shit they made up >5 More fake shit they pulled out of their asses Why is /pol/ so good at being pseudo intellectuals? They pretend to talk a lot but actually just repeat the same bullshit over and over again. Most of their “effort posting” are just talking points regurgitated by porkies and other scam artists like Peterson. Everything they post about “Marxism” (or more correct some metaphysical spook they label as Marxism) just further proves they have never read Marx in their lives.
>>211190 I think it's awesome those fires were set. Fuck the queen's whores
>>206609 3. Neither. Ideas drive history and Marxism itself is an idea
>>211221 >Ideas drive history >Marxism itself is an idea Kys
>>211221 Moronic
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Do you know why /pol/ beats you each and every time? Because no one likes you. No one wants to be like you. /pol/ hands out simple truths. And they can be very funny like that. Those truths now you try to deconstruct. Like you try to deconstruct literally everything. It's all you ever do. And that makes you not only look like pathetic, anal rapists but also FUCKING BORING. /pol/ says in communism people always starve because people are assholes? You go into full autism and end up analyzing the industrial output of the Ottoman Empire during ww1. No one listens to that drivel. No one cares. Debunk that!
>>211315 /pol/ is losing hard. America is on a downward trajectory and since /pol/ hitched their wagon to the king of retarded amerimutts and started worshipping him like a god they are going down with him.
>>211315 >/pol/ hands out simple truths Like how based Trump needs to bomb Iran already? Jesus, you're not even trying bro...
>>211318 This is what happens when you collaborate with boomers to the point that they overpower your energy and start to control all your discussion and memes. Thus why /pol/ is slowly being transitioned from a Fascist ecochamber into a neoconservative cesspit used by redditors as a GOP discussion board
>>211318 /pgt/ is not /pol/. You really think the ones spreading antisemitic memes care for Trump?
>>211325 Yes? They all shill hard for Trump
>>211315 nothing is funnier than being a stodgy conservative religious amerimutt I guess
>>211318 > /pol/ is losing hard They have wayyyy more influence than you do. >>211327 > They all shill hard for Trump No, they don't. Watch Murdoch Murdoch to see about when exactly Trump was dead to them.
>>211328 At least it enables them to meme. A vital ability on imageboards you completely lack. I just browsed this board a little and besides some pepe variations there was little to find that is even remotely funny.
>>211330 >They have wayyyy more influence >they >Murdoch Murdoch Pathetic. This shit is geared either to the mentally disabled or children.
>>211325 bruh go on /pol/ sometime, it's literally filled with people who pull the most fucking hardcore mental gymnastics to justify literally anything he does. One day Trump wants to leave the middle east and they become anti interventionists and the next he wants to bomb Iran and they become full fledged neocons screaming for war, it's fucking ridiculous.
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>>211333 what fucking memes does /pol/ have that is worth a shit?
>>211333 >At least it enables them to meme. A vital ability on imageboards you completely lack. oh yeah bro, boomer memes that use impact text over an image of le epic god emperor. How terribly scared I am of their ability to meme!
>>211333 >>211330 >>211315 >>211325 Please tell me you're underage dude.
>>211315 /pol/ was funny a few years ago. By now it's turned into a tedious torture chamber that plays internet morality police, indistinguishable from the Twitter liberal crowd. Everyone's tired of your shit by now, you're no longer edgy rebels you're tiresome soccer moms starting cringe moral panics over meaningless shit. In an year or so you'll be seen the same way as fedora atheists and zoomers will move on to something fresh and edgy like ecoterrorism and anprim.
>>211342 of course he is, literally nobody on /pol/ is a day over 18, they just want to be le epic contrarian who supports Trump to own da libs.
>>211338 >>211340 Girls, it's a literal proverb that the left can't meme. Everywhere.
>>211345 >haha da left can't meme isn't this meme like 3 years old at this point? Jesus christ /pol/yps are desperate
>>211345 everywhere that is /pol/ sure, but most normal people don't care about this political divide to begin with, led alone what fucking memes they make. that besides, memes aren't products of mass-consumption, they are community in-jokes and references are only meant to be understood in the context of that community. if you are making memes for mass-appeal then you are no better than any fucking ad on tv that uses memetic shit to push products.
Last time /pol/ did a funny was Ron Paul memes.
>>211353 tbf they did have somewhat good energy during the 2016 election but after like april 2017 it just went completely downhill from there.
>>211348 Then why the fuck did i see at least to memes on the first page origined on /pol/ that you copied to fit your ideas? Don't make me laugh.
>>211356 that's... how memes work you fucking cretin
>>211356 >Then why the fuck did i see at least to memes yep, definitely underage, such is the /pol/yp for you I guess
>>211357 Then where are your own creations?
>>211360 >Then where are your own creations? >>211356 >Then why the fuck did i see at least to memes This is so fucking gay lol. I can smell you through the screen.
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>>211360 even if I showed you however many instances of our own memes exist, you'd still label them as shit because primarily you are invested in /leftypol/ being shit to suit your own personal ideology, but secondly because you lack the context of the board's culture and the kind of humor we have. if you are really so interest in our memes, then stay a while and just lurk.
>>211345 > memes ... origined on /pol/ Which ones? Most their memes are taken from elsewhere, even their favorite le happy merchant.
>>211362 Not baiting me. >>211364 One was the two-panel with a guy reading a book (here it was "raesons to live" and inside was a map uf the USSR). The other was the Homer "always do opposite" card. I even saw the fucking NPC somewhere, but didn't look closer.
made by x gang is funnier than every cringe /pol/ meme put together imo
>>211367 >/pol/ invented the book guy meme and the Simpsons Are you retarded?
>>211367 >reasons to live was a /pol/ meme >the simpsons is a /pol/ meme >NPCs is a /pol/ meme jesus christ
>>211370 Of course? Are you trying to tell me the NPC-Meme orginated on /lit/ now?
>>211375 Not him but I saw it earlier on /x/ where the study was published, maybe earlier on /sci/
>>211377 I remeber that thread, it got posted everywhere after the meme was a hit. But it was /pol/ who made a meme out of that idea.
>>211375 no, at best it was a /x/ meme that came out of a dumb article, which then spread to /v/ naturally over time, and from there was co-opted by /pol/. Though I'd bet money that it was posted outside of 4chan first, then made popular on 4chan, since that is the case for most chan memes.
>>211315 >/pol/ makes an extraordinary claim in the form of a "joke" definitely not meant to brainwash people >we try to refute it >lol why are you guys so serious?
>>211382 > refuting a joke That's exactky what i mwant. Who the fuck does that? Try that at a party and see if you ever get invited again.
>>211393 Pretty sure there's people here that playfully pass around jokes in the same vein of jokey racism, mysogny and the such, when we engage with /pol/ here they are clearly not joking.
>>211407 It's not about that. Go to a /pol/-humour thread and tell me trying to refute the funny ones would help your cause at all. Sure, they are agitation and propaganda, but what gives? You have to do better than refuting. You have to be funny yourself. By the way: Is there a /leftypol/ humour thread?
>>211415 I get your point, I think people (not as extreme here as much as, let's say, leftist twitter) take some memes that may have been done by a teenager just having fun too seriously, but if you agree that they do use those memes as propagada, there's nothing wrong with refuting them when people wave talkpoints they got from memes around, it doesn't matter if it messes with the 5 seconds that you could have laughed at the funny meme (does it even? you can still laught at it), it's something that asked to be investigated further by someone with free time to refute it. I really don't care for the whole topic of who stole who's memes, I spend most of my time here, yet I laugh at edgy shit outside of here and I don't limit myself to just laughing about Soviet memes. And as for your question, I don't think so, there's a very shitty pepe variations thread a bit below this one and the late capitalism thread might be considered humor in its absurdity.
>>211034 The coimhthíochs know SHUT IT DOWN, O'Mally
Made me check /pol/ "humor" thread, half of it is edgy /b/ shit, half is just variations on the 6 gorillion joke. You have to be already neck deep in /pol/ ideology to find it funny. The same goes for lefty memes, I guess.
>>211444 This, /pol/ memes aren't funny to anyone not already balls deep in their ideology and are incomprehensible to normies. They spread by osmosis among the extremely online chan-adjacent demographic and have pretty much hit their limit by now. Same with leftypol memes (one exception is "x gang" which I've been seeing a lot, but it's pretty apolitical). Only thing /pol/ and /leftypol/ memes have going for them is that they sure are fuck of a lot better than leftbook shit like "wholesome stock image doggo skeleton says kill landlords and trans rights in a funny font". Those are ungodly cringe.
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Dunno, i honestly believe this is funny even to normies.
>>206649 You underestimate how many lurkers there are. I used to be a /pol/ack, and in part /leftypol/ convinced me to abandon it.
>>211571 You pretending to not get it doesn't make this piece of agitprop less effective.
>>211580 it's only funny if you already believe the Democrats are anti-American, but in reality policies spearheaded by the Dems like medicare 4 all and the like are popular in the wider american public. so in reality this is just a boomer meme for petite-bourgs to rationalize their hatred to the dems without acknowledging the class conflict elements of it.
>>207071 Yeah, seems like multiple races banded together to expel one ruling class. Sounds like class struggle to me.
>>211563 we have a far way to go till we reach this quality in memes ourselves I have to admit
>>211585 I'm not american, but even here the media see's the dems in trouble for being too far to the left to be appealing for average voters. Don't get me wrong, they'd love to see Trump gone and this is exactly why they are troubled. So i do believe this little joke is not restricted to people who "hate" the dems.
>>211563 This is literally a boomer meme
>>211595 >dems >too far to the left I don't even have a reaction image to accurately convey how retarded that is.
>>211595 The problem with the democrats is they’re not far left enough. They ran milquetoast Hillary instead of radical communist Stalinist Bernie and lost because of it.
>>211595 where the fuck do you live, Somolia? Regardless, nobody in the US believes the media has credibility, especially in the Trumpist era. mind this is an era when the approval of most US institutions is in the single-digits, people are massively disengaged from existing power structures and parties but are instead invested in personalities - trend-breakers like Bernie or Trump.
>>211601 Bernie and Yang are too extreme for the average voter. They will destroy Biden with accusations of pedophilia, Warren is a nutjob. You of course have an different opinion on this, but that's not how you win an election. And, i may be wrong here, being overly pc and all that SJW-bullshit drives voters away. At best they stay at home, worst case is they vote reps. You've seen this with Trump, and yet they still haven't learned from their mistake.
>>211608 Germany. And all this doesn't change the fact that memes like that work. Of course you say it doesn't work on you, but you also would claim that coca-cola marketing doesn't work on you, right? Well, it fucking does and you people, if you want to win the upcoming memewar, should better start being funny or you will lose. Again.
>>211611 Bernie is pretty much the Dem frontrunner at this point and is looking very favorable against Trump. He'll probably get ratfucked by the Dem party in the end, but "he's too far left for the average voter" is bullshit.
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>>211614 >>211621 Not avoiding your argument, but seeing how miserably your predictions turned out the last time i take it with a grain of salt.
>>211621 I am pretty shure it is Bloomberg vs. Trump in 2020
>>211623 Nigger you think we're Hillary fans here?
>>211627 Isn't he running independently? If so, Trump is in trouble.
>>211632 No, but i think your predictions last time were crap.
>>211623 Hillary was an establishment pet, more so than trump is. Of course they rigged it.
>>211633 No hes democrat, just ran late
>>211618 >Germany oh great, "lets ruin europe again" gang checking in >Of course you say it doesn't work on you, but you also would claim that coca-cola marketing doesn't work on you, right? Nobody is immune to propaganda retard, thats a common saying on the left. But people recognize their material interests regardless, the issue is encouraging them to fight for their interests rather than perpetuate a status quo. >if you want to win the upcoming memewar, should better start being funny or you will lose. Again. Mental illness. Who even "won" the meme war? /pol/, who has been hilariously backstabbed at every turn by their candidate of choice? the only people who won last election were the bourgs. >>211635 A lot of us called a Hillary defeat. the EC inherently favors the GOP and she handily lost the Obama coalition before the race even began due to her previous history with race issues.
>>211611 Yang is a third way candidate, he said some centrist shit that shat both on capitalism and socialism.
>>211647 > "lets ruin europe again" gang Yeah, i'm sick and tired of it myself. Thing is, the Left here is actively in favor of this, even the Antifa gangs up on everyone who is against this madness. Believe me, i really do wish for us for being normal, just once. > But people recognize their material interests regardless, the issue is encouraging them to fight for their interests That's where you are wrong, kiddo. People are dumb, at least half of them is outright stupid and they wouldn't know their own interests if you skullfucked them into their empty heads.
No shit Bernie is too far left, still he wouldn't be considered as such in other countries that aren't the US. He's still gaining ground despite identifying as a socialist.
>>211659 >Thing is, the Left here is actively in favor of this the left is inherently anti-imperialism, thus striking at the source of the migrant crisis itself instead of being in favor of exaggerating human misery through neoliberal exploitation of migrants, which is what you all are in favor for. >Believe me, i really do wish for us for being normal, just once. Reinstate the governance of East Germany. >That's where you are wrong, kiddo. People are dumb, at least half of them is outright stupid and they wouldn't know their own interests if you skullfucked them into their empty heads. Ah, classical fascist contempt for the common man. Contrary to your beliefs, people can recognize when they are getting shafted, though the important part is not getting them to realize that fact - the bouj put great effort into creating the illusion of a society where people are content, and alienation destroys the social connections between people. what you have to show people is that they are not the only ones who are discontent - but you must show them that others are discontent as well, and that we can work together towards common causes that promote the welfare of the collective whole.
> neoliberal exploitation of migrants, which is what you all are in favor for I'm working class myself (not even kidding) and i sure as hell don't favor exploiting migrants. I am in favor of kicking them out. > Reinstate the governance of East Germany Didn't work then, wouldn't work now. > Ah, classical fascist contempt for the common man. Dude, i fucking work with your noble creatures and let me tell you: they don't give a flying fuck for your high ideals and sophisticated theories. They want eight to five, cheap stuff and someone who tells them what to think without saying so.
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>>211679 >I'm working class myself (not even kidding) and i sure as hell don't favor exploiting migrants. I am in favor of kicking them out. Retarded take because the people you instate into power don't do that. Porkies in the US use ICE as a way to threaten migrant labor into compliance and into accepting lesser wages for the jobs they employ them for rather than as a tool to deport people. The policies you advocate for are solely in the interests of porky, not the broader masses. Same with /yourguy/ in Hungry, who instantly turned neoliberal and sold out his country to the EU and exploited migrant labor while applying neoliberalism to their own population. How many times must you be duped by the bourgs until you finally see your utter failure as a movement? >Didn't work then, wouldn't work now. On the contrary, it worked quite well. One of the best education systems in the world, higher rate of growth than west germany, better healthcare services than most of Europe, and some of the best sex in the "West". >Dude, i fucking work with your noble creatures and let me tell you: they don't give a flying fuck for your high ideals and sophisticated theories. They want eight to five, cheap stuff and someone who tells them what to think without saying so. We have no high ideals, just theories and methods that pertain to what you listed off. Easier and freer living is the priority of a communist party, and giving the liberty of owning their own labor is the method of doing so.
>>206527 >class society is natural. Well the feudal lords claimed it was supernatural, because god ordained the kings and queens. Funny how that rhetoric changed. What this might mean to say is that class society is inevitable. And that isn't true either. The very fact that people are complaining about class society and others defending class society means that it's not inevitable. Anther interpretation of this is that class society is innate to the human species, and that is also false because for most of human existence on this planet we lived in classless tribes. Class societies are the aberration from the norm for our species. You can judge class societies in the following way: From the perspective of society: are the rulers beneficial, are they worth the cost ? Looking at the history civilisation, one has to say that yes some rulers were a good investment, but for quite a large part of history it was a waste of time and effort.
>>211595 >I'm not american but free healthcare is too far left Sure
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>>211688 > migrant labor Most migrants here come as asylum seekers and are forbidden to work. But you are right about the "porks", the few ones who do work are mostly dyslexic and do low wage labor no one else wants to do. > the people you instate into power don't do that The ones i vote for will. > One of the best education systems in the world True. But you can have that independently from economic systems. > higher rate of growth than west germany Yet empty shelves and crumbling infrastructure. Don't get me started about housing. > better healthcare services than most of Europe Yet dependend on capitalistic produced pharmaceuticals. > and some of the best sex in the "West". The women there are still sluts. By the way, you forgot to mention the Stasi, censorship and a full blown surveillance state. > Easier and freer living is the priority of a communist party Then why do they always end up with the opposite of that?
>>211705 >The ones i vote for will. Said increasingly nervous rightoid after voting in yet another generic neocon who proceeds to fellate Israel and do absolutely nothing as promised like Orban, Trump, Johnson etc...Pathetic.
>>211705 >muh stasi ahahah faggot
>>211714 I'm fully aware they're neocons. I am also aware they don't fit my economic interests.
>>211705 >The ones i vote for will. So said the Trumpites, the Orban voters, the Pinochet supporters, the Nazis, so on. All failed, all betrayed, all in or transitioning to the dustbin of history. >True. But you can have that independently from economic systems. No, because the economic system is part of why the educational model was is place - to allow for greater worker choice in employment. This is directly contradictory to porky aims. >Yet empty shelves and crumbling infrastructure. Don't get me started about housing. The over-emphasis of heavy industry rather than light industry that produced consumer goods was necessary in light of the cold war, as military armament for self-defense became a priority. But as industrialization progressed across the whole of the East Bloc, these shortages became minute or wholly disappeared. Infrastructure was also always a priority of the communist party - infrastructure was the heart of industry. Infrastructure only crumbles now because the German capitalists have no interest in maintaining the economic vitality of East Germany, so now they have seen decades of neglect. >Yet dependend on capitalistic produced pharmaceuticals. See above, heavy industry was needed above all else. >The women there are still sluts. You say that as if freedom to sleep around is a bad thing. >Stasi, censorship and a full blown surveillance state. The Stasi were more accountable to the citizens than any Western equivalent, and not headed by a Nazi unlike their West German counterparts. The censorship was par for the course for the time period, and is light compared to how censorship is done today. >full blown surveillance state To crack down on a certain political party that just got through the process of ruining Europe again. >Then why do they always end up with the opposite of that? What freedoms do the proles of the world have in capitalism? The freedom to starve, usually. Freedom to speech, but media is so thoroughly controlled by the rich and powerful that their voice doesn't carry. Freedom to property, that they increasingly cannot afford, and thus must seek out landlords even as there are more homes than homeless? Economic freedom counts for far more than any given liberal freedom than you can list off.
>>211719 > to allow for greater worker choice in employment Provided you signed away your soul to the party, else you had fuck all choice. > Infrastructure only crumbles now Blah Blah. Do you have any idea how long a single male had to wait for a shaddy appartment with a leaking roof? > You say that as if freedom to sleep around is a bad thing. It is. > The Stasi were more accountable to the citizens than any Western equivalent Yeah, real saints. I heard of that from co-workers. > The censorship was par for the course for the time period That's an outright lie. And i suspect you know that. > and is light compared to how censorship is done today. They can't just outlaw, say, a magazine. > The freedom to starve, usually Well, i for one will eat two (small) Schnitzel in a few minutes. Fried on the stove i wouldn't have had in the GDR, inside the kitchen i wouldn't have had in the GDR. That's that.
>>211739 >Do you have any idea how long a single male had to wait for a shaddy appartment with a leaking roof? >I heard of that from co-workers. >Well, i for one will eat two (small) Schnitzel in a few minutes. Fried on the stove i wouldn't have had in the GDR, inside the kitchen i wouldn't have had in the GDR. <muh anecdotes Ok kraut gusano
>>211739 >Bundesland (state) Children on the welfare rolls (percent of all children, in 2005) Persons on the welfare rolls (percent of all persons, in 2005) Bavaria 6.6% 3.9% Baden-Württemberg 7.2% 4.1% Rhineland-Palatinate 9.9% 5.5% Hesse 12.0% 6.5% Lower Saxony 13.5% 7.6% North Rhine-Westphalia 14.0% 8.1% Saarland 14.0% 7.4% Schleswig-Holstein 14.4% 8.2% Hamburg 20.8% 10.6% Thuringia 20.8% 10.4% Brandenburg 21.5% 12.0% Saxony 22.8% 11.8% Mecklenburg-Vorpommern 27.8% 14.9% Saxony-Anhalt 27.9% 14.2% Bremen 28.1% 13.8% Berlin 30.7% 15.2% You might be able to buy some schnitzels and some dick on the side, but not a lot of people can, dumbass
>>211746 It's a fucking fact there wasn't enough housing you asshole. Have you been to our East after the wall fell? Have you seen Leipzig, Dresden or even the smaller towns then? Don't fucking tell me what i know. And don't tell me i couldn't eat Schnitzel every day if i wanted to, because i fucking can.
>>211739 >Provided you signed away your soul to the party, else you had fuck all choice. You could not be in the party and work. You just couldn't be in an oppositional party - and the same was true of the West, being a part of a communist party was grounds for firing and even imprisonment. >Blah Blah. Do you have any idea how long a single male had to wait for a shaddy appartment with a leaking roof? Commieblocs are literally larger and have thicker walls than modern apartments. The only issues they had were those ubiqitous to all large-scale residential buildings, but they were always designed to be short-term housing as the communist party built better housing, but that was cut short by the fall of communism. also, homelessness was literally near 0 percent in the whole East Bloc. >It is. Kek, prude detected. >Yeah, real saints. I heard of that from co-workers. They weren't there to be your friends. They were there to keep Germany safe from fascists. >That's an outright lie. And i suspect you know that. If you don't know about the systematic censorship of McCarthyism I should tell you to read your history. >They can't just outlaw, say, a magazine. No, they just buy it, evict all the writers, and staff it with their own people. >Well, i for one will eat two (small) Schnitzel in a few minutes. Fried on the stove i wouldn't have had in the GDR, inside the kitchen i wouldn't have had in the GDR. Again, commieblocs were better than modern apartments, and homelessness was near-zero.
>>211749 Half of our welfare recipients are foreigners. I guess another 25% are naturalized. I don't give a fuck about them.
>>211755 Any information on commodities like stoves and refrigerators? At what rate did people acquire those?
>>211755 > You could not be in the party and work Of course, but studying, say medicine, was a privilege and not only determined by grades. > Commieblocs Nah, they were few in the bigger cities. Most people here live in normal Houses built for one family. > but they were always designed to be short-term housing as the communist party built better housing Yeah, i bet they were just about to built those houses when for some reason they collapsed. > prude I just think it more often than not doesn't end well for women. I'm not saying they should be virgin when married, mind you. > the systematic censorship of McCarthyism HI was comparing them to my country at that time. You are right on this one, to a degree. > No, they just buy it, evict all the writers, and staff it with their own people. There is a hardcore Commie-magizine here "Konkret". One of the Staffers was a co-founder of the RAF. They are alive and kicking (well, the chief editor died lately. I liked that commie-bastard). > and homelessness was near-zero. You got a point there.
>>211773 Stoves were common, natural gas stoves were more common in the USSR but I dunno about East Germany. Fridges less so, but that was more reflective of how and what people in the East Bloc consumed - people went to local markets more regularly as opposed to Westerners who went to supermarkets irregularly but buying loads of pre-made food. >>211776 >Of course, but studying, say medicine, was a privilege and not only determined by grades. in the political bloc where the first man in space was the son of a peasant? right. >Nah, they were few in the bigger cities. Most people here live in normal Houses built for one family. Because a trend of people moving towards or in the cities was what was happening in most of the East Bloc - hence why commieblocks were even necessary to begin with, as families turned less traditional and more nuclear, more houses were needed to accommodate the same amount of people. >I just think it more often than not doesn't end well for women. I'm not saying they should be virgin when married, mind you. In a society that is exploitative, sure, but women's equality was always a goal of socialist society. >HI was comparing them to my country at that time. You are right on this one, to a degree. There was far more censorship and falsehoods circulating than you realize. >There is a hardcore Commie-magizine here "Konkret". One of the Staffers was a co-founder of the RAF. They are alive and kicking (well, the chief editor died lately. I liked that commie-bastard). I guarantee you they are marginal compared to about any capitalist magazine.
>>211786 > the son of a peasant I don't see your argument here. Dissidents can come from any background. > women's equality was always a goal of socialist society But they aren't equal. They're women. > I guarantee you they are marginal compared to about any capitalist magazine. Of course they are. Every fringe believe is looked down upon. Nevertheless they still are publishing. The GDR on the other hand wouldn't have tolerated, say, the Forbes magazine.
>>211792 >I don't see your argument here. Dissidents can come from any background. Yuri was a patriot, not a dissident. >But they aren't equal. They're women. Equal in standing and representation in society. >The GDR on the other hand wouldn't have tolerated, say, the Forbes magazine. And rightly so, persecuting oppositional ideologies is a chief concern of any state facing external pressure from countries of said dissident ideology. The US and West Germany sure as hell banned any communist magazine during the Cold War - but now that the enemy is beaten, such action is unnecessary. The same would have been true if the USSR won the cold war.
>But they aren't equal. They're women. Why are you retards still talking to this retard?
>>211798 > Yuri was a patriot, not a dissident Exactly my point. > Equal in standing and representation in society. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't see why acting like a slut should be acceptable behaviour. > West Germany sure as hell banned any communist magazine during the Cold War No, they didn't.
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>>211805 >Nothing wrong with that. I just don't see why acting like a slut should be acceptable behaviour. there is nothing wrong about having sex before committing to any longstanding relationship. if you enjoy sex as such, may as well peruse it. >>211805 >No, they didn't. lmao, the Allies directly collaborated with nazis post-ww2 to combat communism
>>211718 And yet you keep cucking to them.
>>211860 No one else wants to fight islamisation. The left here proposes limitless migration into our welfare system, de facto reducing me and every other worker here to slaves to their deluded plan to "save" the third world. That's why the rightwingers (AfD) have become the new working class party, a title once reserved for the social democrats but which in reality was vacant since the 90s.
>>206637 >just shitpost >on /pol/ >pissing into an ocean of piss >winning lol.
>>211919 >No one else wants to fight islamisation. >The left here proposes limitless migration into our welfare system, de facto reducing me and every other worker here to slaves to their deluded plan to "save" the third world. >That's why the rightwingers (AfD) have become the new working class party, a title once reserved for the social democrats This is a MAGApede level of political analysis. The fact that you separate immigration from the economic system that spawns it is even more of a joke.
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Since it's Rosa/Karl's anniversary, I'll post a popular myth. I've seen plenty of nazis claim that the Jews "caused" a communist revolution in Germany, and that muh glorious freikorps saved us from that (nevermind that the Freikorps saved the same Weimar government that nazis supposedly hate so much) Stormfags are illiterate and can't understand the difference between the November revolution (Kaiser's abdication), the Communist Party (previously known as the Spartacist league) and the January uprisings in Berlin, so they mix up figures and names. The January 1919 uprising was a mass workers protest and revolutionary upheaval in Berlin against the Weimar government that was not planned or started by communists, and the communist figures who played the most prominent roles there were not jewish: Karl Liebknecht, Georg Ledebour, Paul Scholze, Wilhelm Pieck, Ernst Däumig and Emil Eichhorn. So yeah, what nazis call the "Jewish communist revolution", the January 1919 uprising, was neither jewish nor communist. Sources: Failure of a Revolution: Germany 1918-1919, Sebastian Haffner The German Revolution, Pierre Broue The Lost Revolution, Chris Harman
>>215383 Someone should make a fake(r) version of this chart to spread among neo-Nazis, that would be embarrassing when exposed. E.g. adding Lenin and random Jewish historical figures to the left part.
>>215383 >muh stab in the back Reminder that Hitlers officer in WW1 was a Jew
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Relevant to the thread: I made an image responding to a /pol/ picture claiming that basically the Rothschilds are the real ruling-class and they secretly control everything. First pic is /pol/'s version, second is mine
anyone else remember democrat general threads on pol c. 2012/2013?
>>217488 4plebs has archives going back to around 2013/2014 if you wanna dig there
debunk the Goolag Archipelago you filthy commies
>>216045 The fact he was a commanding officer isn't the best part, he gave Hitler the Iron Cross (with which he always tried to flex as being an amazing veteran) because he liked him, even though he didn't really do anything to deserve it. So not only was Hitler stealing honor, he was only able to do it because of a jew. >>220340 Khrushchev literally encouraged people like Solzhenitsyn to write books about "Stalin bad". His own wife admitted that she helped in making up a lot of shit in that book. Solzhenitsyn also wrote another book that was basically a memoir which main character was a self insert living in a gulag. That book ends up portraying the place as just a regular prison, since he was describing his own experience. Compare it to Archipelago and you'll see a wast difference. Also Solzhenitsyn got into gulag for planning a fucking officer coup, and not only was his experience there pretty normal for a prison, he also got sick with cancer AND RECEIVED SUCCESSFUL MEDICAL TREATMENT FOR IT INSIDE OF THE GULAG... IN LIKE 1950'S.
>>220340 He wanted to avoid being shot for desertion during WWII. That was his Heroic Sacrifice for FREEDUMB: get several years of exile political prisoners were getting instead of actually going to war. And then he proceeded to write some bullshit stories about Soviet Gulags. His life was literally saved in those "death camps": he got diagnosed with cancer early enough to get him cured. That was early 1950s, kids. How many prisons got regular medical checkups and sufficiently competent medicine. But what did he write about? He wrote about three soldiers executing two hundred prisoners by making a campfire and ordering prisoners to jump in there and burn to death. Why? Because Khruschev wanted to justify his anti-Stalinist purges with some bullshit stories about Evil Stalin. This is how the Glorious Writer was born. When Khruschev got deposed, the poor Solzhenitsyn lost favor of the Party and USSR immediately became The Biggest Prison. When that twat got kicked out of USSR, he started literally campaigning for nuking USSR off the face of the planet. The twat was supporting and promoting killing hundreds of millions of people, because he was no longer living there and there were money to be made on anti-Soviet propaganda.
Fucking fantastic thread. DDR always wins.
>>216838 Very good, I’ve seen that be used a lot more recently.
>>216039 They think Rockefeller is Jewish, they’d probably just end up believing Lenin is one too
>>222248 Right-wingers have been calling Lenin a jew even before the revolution anon
Bunkerchan are literal cucks, why the fuck don't they focus on their fucking chan?
>>222386 Why don’t you go focus on your own Chan? >>>/pol/
>>211595 Honestly if the dems are "too far left" for the average american then fuck America and let it rot. Isolate it and eventually nuke it, such a hive of scum are only a negative for the world.
>>206527 do arguments like these, and the other dross the spit out like phlegm, really need debunking? >it's fake <best entertain their purely made up ideas just point out their lies to anyone who isn't too far gone (i.e. no one on 4chan) and then move on. you're not going to win over these people with any sincere debate since intellectual pursuit has never been their aim. oh wait, there aim is white supremacy and a desire to pursue a bastardised christian spiritual question. best leave them to it
Would like a debunking of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaOwcYLGTMo
>>230368 Nazino? More like NoNazi
>>230368 Yeah that would be really interesting.
>>230368 > "Stalin's cannibal island" Yeah totally worth my attention
>>230368 Best comment there: "Everytime a teenager praises Stalin, show them this" So true. The report was declassified in 1994 and given to the world to see but apparently it's still not enough for a couple of edgy kids.
>>230424 Why are you here.
>>230368 LMFAO isn't that the island that actually doesn't even exist?
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>>230460 Very disrespectful... learn history instead of just trying to deny years of suffering under the Soviet regime away...
>>230476 Would be cool if it was ACTUALLY REAL but it’s not so go away porky
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Is this relevant? or is this too deep into idpol territory for someone to want to debunk this?
>>222515 Couldn't agree more, always hated the states. fuck 'em.
>>230688 You commies are exactly like neo-Nazis, genocide-denial and all. All I'm asking is that you refute the report that was made about Nazino affair, no need to beat around the bush. Think it's fake? Debunk it.
>>230739 who cares tbh
>>206527 Rightist pseudo-intellectualism something to behold. >>207019 >>207071 Illiterate retard. There are too many examples of class conflict driving political and economic shifts than I could reasonably list, class conflict doesn't just mean violent revolution. >>230739 It's idpol, but that /pol/yp's arguments rely on the assumption that being outside the biological norm makes something immoral, which is just another appeal to spooky natural law bullshit. His claims that oral sex is a fetish is ridiculous. His post on toxoplasmosis is pure stupidity, and something of a small meme among secular rightists desperate for an excuse to hate gays to fit in with the religious undercurrent of reactionary thought. It's a hypothesis without any evidence whatsoever. The rest is just criticism of the hedonism of the gay community and its consequences. Your opinion on that is entirely dependent on your own moral tendency. I personally do find the promiscuity of gay communities disreputable and think the AIDS crisis was entirely their fault and undeserving of sympathy.
Rqing that pic debunking the claim that the German revolution and Spartacus was Jewish >>230739 Poster in cap claims homosexuality is having sex with men when it's actually when you buy into rainbow propaganda.
>>230861 Not an argument.
>>207071 >Jewish merchants and other French petit bourgeois uniting under the banner of french nationhood destroying the French aristocracy to expand their power If you want to call them Jewish, sure, but yeah, that's literally what class struggle is. You just described it. The new ruling class of the capitalists overthrew the old feudal ruling class.
>>230368 Haven't heard of this.
>>230739 >why does nature disallow [x] if its good had to stop reading there.
>>230924 Exactly what I said, you made no arguments. Go ahead and try to refute this real-life horror story, I am still waiting.
>>231244 Counter-revolutionaries deserved it.
>>231244 Ive concluded the estimates of "deaths" of the USSR and China are likely much less then estimated. We all now they weren't perfect but are defendable. whats the real numbers here? if we can, in a relatively simple explanation, show them to be not these bloated numbers made out of thin air, and debase the demonizing. We can defeat the constructed monster capitalist propaganda has made out. The keys to winning this argument we have to win is 1. The destimatization of its history from it current demonization. to a better accurate perception that gives credit to the mass improvements in all living standards, education health... 2. A clear vision that prevents the past mistakes, in a way on lookers can see, while showing the benifits of a cybernetic well planned economies. I believe should be under "libertarian" localized democractic governments. You don't sell ideas by taking the premise of false demonizing. Aren't those the end goal results for socialism in our lives and close descendants? We do have the answers, im new been a socialist for a year. Still need help of its history, what I know is its not as black and white and has nuance. Can you give me these death estimates. Its dumb to sat a famine of 32-33 didn't happen. Oh but it is right to go after inflated statistics and narritives of it being a malicious plot. Lay out these numbers help a new comrade better defend socialist history.
>>231377 Tl;dr? well the lie is 100 million, I believe its probably below 50 milliom where's the truth on this!
>>206527 I honestly don't see the point in debunking them anymore. We need to start advancing our position rather than debunking fascists. Fascism is a movement that relies on mythology; they spinning a yarn 24/7. 90% of the time, the yarn snaps because most people don't believe it, but the 10% it gets through, such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. You're never going to debunk the PoftEoZ. This has been a foundation myth for them for 120 years and you can't get rid of it with debate. What you can do is advance socialism so hard they don't need it anymore.
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>>230739 >500-1000 or more partners in a lifetime
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>>230368 >Stalin's Cannibal Island It baffles but also slightly amuses me when you can say any old shit and anyone would believe it just because Georgian man bad Let's just make shit up, something like >Lenin's Infant Martian Gulag where he planned to send to children of Kulaks and why the space race was kicked off but was kept secret all these years.
>>231474 It's not made up though, several books have written about it, such as: The Nazino Tragedy: A Documented Scholarly Edition Against their will: the history and geography of forced migrations in the USSR Cannibal Island: Death in a Siberian Gulag
I don't care about what people on pol are saying. Their words are empty and the majority of them take no action to reach their goals. Usually when I try to confront people on pol, they usually just send me like 20 articles and tell me that everything will make sense and but when I read them and look for the sources you'll see how fucking uneducated most of the people on pol are. People on pol can't explain or justify their own believes in a way that makes outsiders understand. I think they have just as little understanding of communism as they have when it comes to their own ideology.
>>231808 This kind of sounds like a cop-out to not having to provide any arguments. It's true that many times reactionaries cling onto something even when it's been disproven, but not always. There are many people, for instance, that lean right because they see a lot of infographics that show that Jews are in control of most major media outlets, however that you could disprove/give context to. Keep in mind a large portion of the people here were former reactionaries -- wouldn't you think that providing counterevidence could at least give them some doubt? Least of all it strengthens your own position. Either way what are you going to do if/when fascists win over a bigger portion of the working class? Give up on all of them as "irredeemable"? Part of winning them back over is showing them why the beliefs they hold are wrong.
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>>230368 Okay, that's actually really sick.
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>>232392 Not everything the Soviet Union did was exactly perfect. Grow up.
https://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com/2017/10/18/c-m-cm-c-m-capitalist-ideology/ This is a really good, and short, blog post debunking the idea that capitalists' wealth is the result of their hard work. I don't know about /pol/, but there are some things in there that fedora tipping rational skeptic types seem to find it hard to argue against: <Nietzsche <C-M-C / M-C-M
>>231409 It was from an old evangelical christian source from the 1980s.
>>230368 The only source mentioning it is a single tabloid which later say that island also has already sunk under (so convenient) making anyway of disproving it impossible. It’s debatable that the island has ever existed at all due to any evidence in the Soviet archives on even geology of the region made no mention of an island being there in the supposed time either. We had a thread debunking it already.
>>232939 Does this mean that anti-communists believe in Atlantis?
>>232939 Wikipedia gives the following coordinates: 60.106°N 78.943°E There's an island there.
>>232945 >Does this mean that anti-communists believe in Atlantis? Yes.
By the way, the original source is С. А. Красильников. «Высылка 1933 года. Анатомия назинской трагедии». So claiming that it was made up by some tabloid is simply a lie.
>>232939 That was a different island >>230368 Source on English wiki: Nicolas Werth >Werth's family fled to the United Kingdom in the wake of the Russian Revolution >He wrote the chapters dedicated to the USSR in The Black Book of Communism Uh oh Let's see Russian source >Radio Free Europe OH no no no
>>233011 Check the sources on the Russian wikipedia.
>>233025 I thought the Nigger Book of Communism was the most debunked book by /leftypol/
>>232945 Nazis seem to believe in Aryan Atlantis so yeah. >>232967 So anyone can find out about the author or the book itself? Libgen gave me nothing. >>232939 That combines with the fact that the whole thing only got noted during glasnost with no earlier mentions made by the then us funded NGO memorial (huge connection with Radio Free Europe).
>>233314 >С. А. Красильников There's nothing incriminating I can find on the guy, he's an actual published historian. He's likely an ideologue since he's autistically obsessed with researching "StALiN's CrIMeS" but I'd need to actually read the book to criticize it and I can't be arsed atm The thing that gives the most pause is that the whole affair surfaced in the 90s. If it was something that happened and people knew about before, wouldn't Cornman bring it up during destalinization? Also even if it happened I don't think it was a bad thing tbh, the alleged victims were kulaks and kulaks deserved everything
>>230457 To educate you proles.
>>231380 3 zeros less than your number.
>>233011 Any examples of lies by Radio Free Europe?
>When 13-year-old children end up cannablized because they didn't have their internal passports on hand but that's okay because you can just wave it away with "They were enemies of the people".
>>233583 Marxism-Leninism is a cult, it's insane.
They always use the "human nature" argument. As if no humans have never worked together for a common goal. Humans are the most cooperative animal. People on /Pol/ will always rant about things that they don't understand and they will come with ridicules claims with no evidence what so ever to support it.
>>233621 > Humans are the most cooperative animal No, bees and ants are. In hunter gather societies a third of the males died by being killed by another human.
>>233641 We are the most cooperative species that can still have a sense of agency compared to the eusocial animals, which naked mole rats also form part of.
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>>233557 Seeing how most of the news coming from its cousin Radio Free Asia and America is fucking retarded bullshit like Kim’s uncle being fed to dogs, state imposed haircuts, Vietnamese cancer gun or DPRK unicorns, I doubt it’s a real reputable source.
>>232951 Where? I genuinely don't see it, although i also don't know qualifies as an island in that river, however the fotos shown here of the island don't match
>>233628 2000 deaths due to mismanagement. Sooooo terrible. The USSR also government learned their lesson as well and stopped using criminals to settle uninhabited lands. You can go find some other """atrocity""" to pearl clutch
>>233708 River currents change over time. On the south side the river is much narrower but if you look it's still there; might have been bigger in 1933. >>233701 Links?
>>233708 Top right of the page.
>>233701 This is not how you do history, retard.
Would like someone to address this video about Albania https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ-j-bTJYVY
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Whenever I discuss the Labour Theory of Value with my friends, they always retreat with: > "Economy is not a science, you can't study the economy like Marx did, since it is not a science" , > Marxism is sociology, not a science >"You can't cut up Labour value into units like 'kilograms or centimers' since it is not emperically quantifiable"
>>274087 >economy is not a science wat >sociology isn't a science hah >labour not empirically quantifiable what is this I don't even
>>274088 Yeah I know they keep deflecting with these kind of arguments. I just want something to debunk this easily so they won't be able to use it again.
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>>274094 I said that a meter is also not emperically quantifiable, scince it is an assumption that we made a standard. He actually replied with: >No you can quantify 1 meter, scince 1 meter=1 meter
>>274094 The first two are plain ignorance and unknowing or deliberately stupid deflects on the epistemological roots of economics and sociology. Third one I would tread more carefully with, mostly because am not that well read on Capital, but if they tell you that you can't cut up labour, then ask them how is it that they get paid something for their labour. Now, you might actually have some use for reading Capital and solving that one better than I just did, imo
>>274100 Thanks, I planned to reread those sections of Capital dealing with Labour value anyway, maybe get some more use out it
>>274098 Dude is retarded: Labor is measured in units of time. 1 year, 1 month, 1 week, 1 day, 1 hour, 1 minute, 1 second.
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>>274106 Shit, actually forgot about that lmao. I really have to reread Capital Thanks comrade
>>274110 You are not alone. Quantifying things in time truly is important.
>>274098 Measurements units do not have to hang in the void they can derived from physical anchors as well 1 meter = 6.18735316522e+34 Plank lengths 1 s = 1.8550948324478E+43 Planck time
>>256986 Marxism is both a philosophy and a science. A philosophy, because it determines truths through reasoning, and a science because it systematically investigates the world. As a science, Marxism is both an economic and social science – it is as much a science as Austrian or Keynesian economics, or psychology or anthropology. Properly, Marxism is a science first and then a philosophy, because it investigates and determines matters empirically and then derives through reasoning the conclusions of such.
>>222515 >the dems are "too far left" for the average american The repubs are often "too far left" for many, too.
>>231409 >>232934 Likely based on some book by a homosexual who spoke about how many partners he's had and how many diseases he's had. IIRC, he claims it is common for gays to have lots of sexual partners in the book. >>230739 >homosexuality Probably going to get shit for this, but >sexes and sexual intercourse have evolved for reproduction >therefore same sex sexual intercourse goes against this evolution; no offspring is produced >same with incest, though only sometimes are there miscarriages; generally just retards >therefore, thought logical, ancient man, homo, zoo and incest are bad and unnatural/evil [with pedo being specifically prepubescent (i.e. not modern conception of "16-18 = okay", though it should be noted that the Catholic Church centuries ago had pushed for similar ages (as opposed to f/m ~14/25 that was common for pagans) and supposedly around ~19)] And never mind the other aspects about behavior that have been observed (e.g. excessive lying). Also, the occasional unfortunate barren man or woman is the exception, as in normal circumstances they would produce normal offspring, whereas you will never produce children with gays and animals (dunno if chimps have been tried but I'd imagine any offspring would be fucked up or even die on arrival), nor are you going to produce non-deformed or mentally retarded children with incest in nigh all cases (I'm sure there are some where it wasn't such a problem, but 99% nothing good will come).

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