If there is a god he would do the right thing but i have my doubts this far in

Democrats' debate starts 9 p.m. ET.

>>133477


Fuck this faggot,he blocked me when I told him his Joker take was dogshit.

>>133215
bernie is unironically a CIA nigger. i stopped supporting the elite a while ago, you should too.

>>133166
based, another chapo fan? you're among friends comrade

>>133253
Now, jokes aside, one of these meems but with the glowy agency's logo instead, would be more fitting

https://twitter.com/Guaitafran/status/1197193283514048515
>24 hours after the repression in El Alto, this is the Senkata gas and fuel plant.

https://twitter.com/Guaitafran/status/1197205910302658560
https://twitter.com/Guaitafran/status/1197210409960386560
https://twitter.com/Guaitafran/status/1197214690641940483
>In the church of San Francisco de Asis there are 6 corpses #Senkata #Bolivia
>Another corpse enters the San Francisco de Asis Church #Senkata #Bolivia
>The death toll in Senkata increases. The figure rises to 9 as confirmed by @DPBoliviaOf #Bolivia

Just assume i'm using google translate from now.

This guy claims there was, in fact, election fraud.
https://twitter.com/CarwilBJ/status/1194371628014043136
There's a possibility there might have been some shady shit going on, which judging by the resulting coup and fascist repression would have totally been justified.

I don't discount the possibility. I've also heard about "Evo's millionaire house and cars" and so much corruption etc.
Assuming all of it is true, fascists are not a better option. It's not like neoliberal presidents and congressmen are not already rich and get richer.
Innocent, unarmed people are dying on the streets at the hands of the military, but for neolibs, it's just a number, even an expected "error rate" of their coup.
I don't claim to be a leftist for "moral" reasons, but god damn, these "christian" right wingers are deranged schizo psychopaths...
Hold me anons...

>>132037
Good. A communist party which isn't filled with retards. 日本共産党 is based.

>>133813
Don't forget the TREP was used for the first time this year because of the OAS insistence, and that it is irrelevant anyway because it's not legally binding.

>>133818
were unemployed by the blow to Evo ⇒ were striking against the coup

>>133813
It doesn't matter. Evo agreed to do elections again and they couped him anyway. Might as well be fraud by opposition to muddy the waters.

I still have hope Bolivia can be saved

>>133813
Those tweets are literally nothing.
Why are you saying this proves the OAS narrative that nobody else on earth follows?

>>133874
please explain to me how NATIONALISING your resources is jewish degeneracy?

Fucking retard Hillary Clinton coup supporter thinks its a Nazi lololol

>>133936
Nationalism has nothing to do with nationalizing your country's national resources and industrial sectors lmao
Nationalism is when you let western capitalist americans coup your government so they can allow companies into your country who will steal your lithium :^)

>>132085
>thinks "gusano" is an insult
It literally means "worm" in Spanish. How is it not a fucking insult?

>>133874
For a Nazi, you sure do love some glow in the dark niggers

Gringos deserved 9/11 and Pearl harbor atleast the japs had guts when brutally killing people

Álvaro García Linera, the official vicepresident in exile in Mexico, said yesterday in an interview with Mexican newspaper La Jornada that OEA and the United States are the main actors behind the coup. Pretty based.
Also, he said that as long as the legislative assembly, where MAS has two thirds of the seats, doesn't recognize Evo's resignation he is still the president of Bolivia.

I am legitimately surprised a place like Market Watch is calling bullshit on the OAS

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-oas-lied-to-the-public-about-the-bolivian-election-and-coup-2019-11-19

>>134177
so you can't explain why nationalisation is jewish degeneracy then?

Well, to send to the spanish speaking friends.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7P5uMuaEZI

>>134582
Lel bueno el vídeo. Ya viste que lo último que anda dando vueltas es la supuesta llamada telefónica de Evo a no sé quién para que no deje pasar comida o no sé qué chuchas?

next level shit

https://twitter.com/noticiasfides/status/1197170016120135686
>The Minister of Government, Arturo Murillo, presented a video in which Evo Morales is heard giving orders to a leader to continue with the siege to the cities until the dictatorship is expelled. Murillo said he will file an international complaint against Morales for sedition.
The right is claiming that Evo is sending all these troops (? terrorists?) to the cities.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/20/bolivia-el-alto-violence-death-protest
>The rightwing interim government that took power after Morales’ toppling on 10 November has rejected claims the army was behind Tuesday’s killings, which came during confrontations between troops and Morales loyalists outside a fuel storage depot the latter had been blockading.
>Bolivia’s defense minister, Fernando López, told reporters “not a single bullet” had been fired by his forces, and branded demonstrators “terrorists” acting on the orders of Morales.
When terrorist is just a buzzword for dissident to a repressive banana republic dictatorship.

>>133951
the alt-right and glowies are best buds! they actively ignore them, then only do anything after some national public out cry event. Meanwhile your on 15 list, if you even mention being anti-imperialism or whatever! they claim to be because of optics and because they even did anything, after one of these retards kills 13 crackers in the name of white supremacy.

>>135211
I don't see Morales in the video

>>135217
You are supposed to mentally project him. It's right wing stuff you wouldn't understand.

>>135217
>>135218
The voice is very similar and what he says makes sense. It's likely to actually be Evo.

>>135232
Who the fuck would support rightists after this?

https://twitter.com/SMoncada_VEN/status/1197568732572372993
The marchers have made it to the capital.

https://twitter.com/ElPutoAmofsln/status/1197574237139144704
They're just coming in like a river and it looks like they're chanting "revolution!"

>>135268
This is how the movie "John Wick" starts.

Glorious Chad Bolivians will Bleed fake Bolivia to death

https://twitter.com/MintPressNews/status/1197575990290960385
The marchers aren't just mourning, they also have demands. Watch the stream footage.

https://twitter.com/Guaitafran/status/1197584228487061504
Police are firing tear gas.

https://twitter.com/F_ortegazabala/status/1197586340612837376
https://twitter.com/F_ortegazabala/status/1197590069579853830
People are getting hurt.

Imagine how ridiculously cowardly you have to be to fire tear gas on your own people

https://twitter.com/camilateleSUR/status/1197585555376218113
>tear gas
>crowds are too large to run
shit man

All it takes for /pol/ to drop the anti-interventionist mask and start deepthroating glowing cock, is for American puppets to bring out the Bibles and namedrop kartural margsism before selling their country out to imperialism.

Why are rightoids so cucked and pathetic lads?

>>135510
>>135521
Oh look at that literal chemical weapons used on the populist. This is a fucking i international crime if I ever seen it.

People had to leave the coffins behind.

>>135283
Most rightoids hate animals outright. Ever been on 4chan? They fucking hate dogs.

The "International Community" Is a fucking joke

>>135586
How disappointing considering the fascists are gasing their people with banned chemical weapons, but its okay because they "support" the intern goverment.

Nazi's really wanna kill every single person in Bolivia then realize it will destroy the economy when the like 10k at most unironic nazis are left

>>135620
They only need to kill those willing to fight, which is a minority.

>>135001
Lo del audio? Ni idea, si he oido lo de los cercos a las ciudades desde hace semanas. Incluso antes que caiga la oposicion estaba:
>Oposición dice que Evo es dictador y que los Masistas son descerebrados.
>Acusan de Evo de querer cercar las ciudades para hacr respetar su fraude.
<El ejercito le baja el dedo a Evo
>La oposicion igualito dice que Evo y su gente van a cercar las ciudades.
Link de hace casi un mes
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.paginasiete.bo/nacional/2019/10/27/evo-anuncia-cerco-ciudades-para-hacer-respetar-su-triunfo-235644.html
Link sobre el cerco de tupac katari
https://www.bbc.com/mundo/noticias-america-latina-50469452

>>135585
The typical fascist on 4chan has a gore folder on his harddrive filled with animal torture videos, then goes on to /ck/ to make a thread about how "insects" (their term for the Chinese) mistreat our soul-bonded dogs by eating them.

The C-O-U-P in Bolivia is reaching its end. But the scammers are still killing. The world looks the other way, but the indigenous people are stronger. I hope when this nightmare ends the coup plotters answer for their crimes.

(Below: what the bots think)

wtf I love me some Coehlo now my boyos and gals

>>135748
>reaching its end
source?

>>135748
What are they doing? Throwing chicken bones at the floor and wishing the coup out of power? They need FIREARMS not hope.

>>135761
Wasn't there a leftist group taking claim that they would start a civil war if the fascist coup to stand down?

>>135744
I remember a time when the only activism 4/b/ did was doxx animal abusers.
4chan has become everything oldfags hated.

>>135750
I don't know why he wrote that tbqh, it doesn't seem to have any end as of yet. Maybe being omminous?
>>135761
That is for sure but then the righturds start the 'hurr durr you see the cocaleros are the real terrorists' crap.

>>135761
There is one other alternative (though having an angry mob at their backs would certainly help here too). What happened to the Legislative Assembly's proclamation that the coup was a coup? Were they ever allowed back into session?

>>135769
It might be an example of magical thinking (if we concentrate on the idea of the coup ending soon it will). I wouldn't put it past Coelho.

>>135748
Paulo Coehlo is woke...Well, at least now I can sleep well knowing that he copy a tale from Borges, who didn't mind being with Videla and company.

Exiled vice-president blames ‘racist backlash’ for Evo Morales's forced exit

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/20/exiled-vice-president-blames-racist-backlash-for-evo-moraless-forced-exit

>García Linera attacked critics on the left as “Starbucks feminists and folkloric environmentalists”.

>"Their attitude in the face of what has been happening has been shameful," he said. “They have not understood that the traditional middle class has gone fascist. They have not understood the class element or the racist element.”

Lmao. He seems pretty based

>As he spoke, García Linera seemed every ounce the university professor, who won fame in Bolivia for reframing Marxist analysis for a majority indigenous context.

>But he has never been a traditional academic: although he studied for a maths degree in Mexico in the 1980s, he never actually graduated, and when he returned to Bolivia he joined a guerrilla group, before being arrested and spending several years in jail.

|￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣|
No quiero nada regalado
|＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿|
(\__/) ||
(•ㅅ•) ||
/ 　 づ

How do we get these guys some guns to use The military has to see what their doing is wrong all of them are not fascists

>>135792
based

>>135804
Venezuela and Cuba could smuggle tons of guns in.

>>135807
Wrong. Bolivia is landlocked.

Whats keeping the army in check are they scared are they being paided by america

>>135810
>he thinks Latin Americans can't smuggle over land borders
oh anon you are too much some times

Even Goat farmers in Afghanistan are making IEDS

>>135816
They don't share a border with Venezuela.

>>135817
Socialists do optics better than CIA Islamists

HELLO. YES. I AM OF BOLIVIA. I AM OF THINK THAT [OPPRESSOR] IS ACTUALLY [BENEFACTOR]. IN FACT YOUR [LIBERATOR] IS A [TERRORISTAS].

T. ORGANIC HUMAN BEING

>>135817
Goat farmers in Afghanistan have been making IEDs continuously since the Great Game, there's even an ENTIRE CITY on the Pakistani border in the Khyber Pass dedicated to building handmade weapons from bombs through machineguns to artillery pieces.

Ever Handmade weapon city has its starting point It would serve a good purpose in south america

>>135827
>>135834
I know nothing about weapons. Explain to me what is weird about these.

There are people who need weapons contact your gun smith friends and tell them to set up shop

>>135836
The first image I know nothing about, but it looks weird and homemade (but to a good standard).
The image I posted, the second one, is just what you get when you give some tribal gunsmiths an M16 and AK47 and tell them to make something people will want to buy. It's a result of poor industry, literacy, knowledge of the global arms market, and an excellent skill at producing weaponry when given a "master". The people that made it are Khyber gunsmiths, a dying breed of Northern Frontier (Pakistan) armourers being drowned out by the massive proliferation of weapons worldwide. They're very talented craftsmen considering their tools aren't even up to industrial revolution standards.

>>135836
Sorry I missed the point: The weird thing is it's the only known M16/AK47 guns on the planet, and they were never mass produced.

>>135845
What are you waiting for fly one out to Bolivia

>>135792
what he's saying right there about the middle class is true. They're the ass kissers of all the fascist upper classes behind the whole thing. The ones out there during those anti Evo demonstrations before the coup, the useful idiots that won't feel the opression as much as the actual indigenous lower classes will.
VENDEPATRIAS DE MIERDA
They are the local gusANOS or worse the gusANOS' asskissers.

>>135854
As communists we should acknowledge the fact that they were created by Evo's reforms. A socdem is still a capitalist. A socdem elevating the population from complete misery creates its national bourgeoisie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbGQZpdv3eg

>>135852
Well outside of my skillset I'm afraid, that's what actual intelligence agencies are for. If the Bolivians were to log on and ask questions here I would be more than happy to guide them to weapons but I can't simply will a load of guns into their hands.

>>135858
>I can't simply will a load of guns into their hands
t. fascist coup supported

Its rough i wanna do what i can to help The utmost importance is getting the Bolivians Anagrams on making bombs or guns

Gas masks get them some gas masks even the simple soda bottle ones

>>135860
I need a few bibles.
>>135865
>>135866
They need access to leftypol tbqh

So, if this coup is defeated, hopefully there will be mass armament of the countryside, same as prevented several coups in Venezuela.

>>135856
Nah, they aren't even real bourgies, they're "comprador" lumpenbourg:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprador

>>135866
>>135865
1. Translate infographs on gun, bomb, gasmask making to Spanish.
2. Set up a twitter account.
3. Tweet these nonstop at legit anti-coup Bolivian accounts.

>>135869
>they aren't even real bourgies
Have you watched that video? These are legit indigenous businessmen and women with businesses inside Bolivia. What are you even trying to prove? That Evo isn't running a capitalist economy?

Twitter suspend me cause i kept telling the Gusanos i was gonna come to their house and personally kill them

>>135875
You wasted your life threatening them, you're better off never saying anything and killing them. In countries with poorly developed surveillance states people can get away with one murder each, generally.

>>135873
>What are you even trying to prove? That Evo isn't running a capitalist economy?
Yes, Bolivia is still an underindustrialized trade-dependent resource extraction economy.

>>135879
Evo's cancelled for not abolishing money and that's the tea sis.

>>135879
Are you trying to say that Bolivia does not fit the Marxist definition of a capitalist country?

>>135871
quien alguna vez hablas español hazlo
Mi Espanol es no muy bien

>>135880
>>135881
I'm saying they're too underdeveloped to have an actual bourgeoise

Pequeño problemo Bolivians do not own foam insulation

>>135886
And I'm posting you empirical proof they exist thanks to Evo which you ignore.

>>135887
Someone translate this for me

>>135893
there are various gradations of bourgeoisie obviously, ranging from merchant capitalists like those displayed in the vid (the one guy interviewed was a cloth merchant) to industrialists and various other magnates with nationwide economic reach. However, the largest capitalists in Bolivia are probably those multinational companies and their collaboraters among the economic elite of Bolivia who extract the country's wealth to sell abroad. The indigenous bourgeoisie and the increasing consumer society of the natives does not even come close to that level of wealth.

You meat sacks spread this to people in Bolivia

>>135922
Wouldn't work. Bolivians have small and wide faces.

>>135933
Human faces are not differently sized enough to affect this

>>135922
They could just steal gas masks from any big chain hardware store if they got those in bolivia

>>135792
>>135805
>>135854
The editorializing in this is horrific. Full interview where?

Okay my Computer blacked out after posting the tear gas guide

Just please spread it any affect it can have is postive

>>135887
>Pequeño problemo Bolivians do not own foam insulation

You realise that La Paz is a cold place and that Bolivians have pillows, right?

>>135979
This is one of the things I don't get about Latin American socdems. Why have free press to this degree? What do you actually gain from having right wing channels propagating for the US raping you as a good thing. Why allow it to be in private hands AT ALL?

There's that documentary about the 2003 attempted coup in Venezuela and they show these channels and the content they push out (basically Chavez is the devil) and the effect it has on idiots. You basically allow an outright enemy who wishes to Pinochet your population to talk freely so that you can gain "democracy points" in the eyes of the West WHO ALREADY PAINTED YOU A DICTATOR, SO WHAT'S THE FUCKING PURPOSE?

I know this is not the right time to criticize them with the coup going on, but for fuck's sake, this is where it leads, you stupid mother fucking humanist "democrats." If Evo ever comes back he better redpill the fuck up, because this is fucking ridiculous.

>>135993
The same reason torture is bad. Because prosecuting people for speech is a fuzzy, slippery business, and largely ineffective.

In the case of the first tweet, the most reprehensible act is clearly giving prisoners to the coup army. In the case of the latter, it is literally censorship.

>>135997
>Because prosecuting people for speech is a fuzzy, slippery business, and largely ineffective.
Nigger, these media corporations aren't "people who want to have a say" but CIA backed propaganda machines that are out to rape your population and steal your resources. You stupid fucking spooked cunt.

>>135993
a lot of media in the west was state owned till the 1980s as well and presumably in third world socialist countries. I think after 1991 the free speech thing got shilled very hard and media privatization intensified until we get the hellscape we have today. It's not an accident billionaires have used their private media empires to make or break politicians, or get themselves elected across the World. To ban this libertarian hellscape of media is now equivalent to being a totalitarian

>>136002
>these media corporations aren't "people who want to have a say"
So restrict their distinctive organizational/revenue structures
>spooked
Think in terms of acts associated with expression, not the content of expression. Censorship is an inherently stupid and futile tactic, except as a means of empowering arbitrary and lawless authoritarianism.

>>136004
>libertarian hellscape
Right-libertarianism is an oxymoron

>>136004
>To ban this libertarian hellscape of media is now equivalent to being a totalitarian
According to this cuntiest of cunts it's the same as torturing people: >>135997

>>136008
>the more privatized media we have the freelier our society is
Why do you even post here?

>>136009
>>136010
>not censoring people=privatization

>>136011
stupid fucking liberal leave this site forever

>>136013
>waaaah freedom triggers me leave my trankie hugbox

>>135993
You cannot win against righturds' smear campaigns, they already call the indigenous protesters 'armed terrorists than wanted to blow up some plant' but so far I only see casualties from their fucking side. Calling them cocaleros when this Barbie wannabe Pinocheta has a fucking drug trafficking nephew.

>>136022
If you jerked all their access to corporate money, would there even be any smear campaign? Like, looking at /pol/, the sheer amount of proven astroturf throughout its history is staggering.

>>136023
It's not just /pol/ and its not just politics. Lately Disney has been astrosurfing their weak ass star wars meme (which more and more seems to be a failed franchise since their purchasing it) on /tv/ and the userbase noticed it.

>If you jerked all their access to corporate money
How do you even attempt do this? We are living in the era of offshores and almost completely untraceable digital money transfers. Besides, it's a capitalist corporation. Just because you somehow magically cut them off from the CIA's payroll their class interests will go against your lukewarm socdem shit. Their alignment with the US runs deeper than just getting burger bux. They would make greater profits if the likes of Maduro and Evo were gone.

The systemic solution is a labor voucher socialist economy. Everything else is a workaround.

>>136014
Yes.
Off to the gulag cumrag

>>136014
>the freedom to lie, manipulate, and cover up massacres by capitalists
A freedom worth killing for is a freedom worth dying for. Protesters in Bolivia should just lie down on the middle of the street to let the tanks go over them so that they can defend the freedom of speech. This way we'd be over this whole unpleasant ordeal much faster and our sacred freeom of speech would be protected as well.

t. /r/neoliberal

>>136040
>Just because you somehow magically cut them off from the CIA's payroll their class interests will go against your lukewarm socdem shit.
I'm not just referring to foreign influence honestly nailing them on the basis of outright treasonous and insurrectionary behavior is an easier charge than speech or money, but everything about them at the level of their composition and position. Reintroduce all the controls that used to exist, and more. What's needed is neither transnat corporate conglomerate media, nor statesec media, but independent media. Install ownership restrictions, marketshare restrictions, require media be nonprofit, subsidize politicians based on popular support, etc. There are countless such measures that are proven to work, which porky fights tooth and trotter wherever they persist.
>The systemic solution is a labor voucher socialist economy
It's akshually voluntaryist syndicalism

>>136042
Dilate

>>136046
>confusing material actions with immaterial content of expressions
This is something most toddlers are able to grasp, maybe delete your Twatter.

>>135993
I think you can have a free press, it just needs to be structured properly. And obviously you should block foreign capital, don't let monsters like Rupert Murdoch within a thousand miles of your country.

>>136048
>a decentralized market economy with restrictions is the solutions
*buys up your "independent" journalists with money*

How is this better than labor vouchers again?

>>136008
>Think in terms of acts associated with expression, not the content of expression. Censorship is an inherently stupid and futile tactic, except as a means of empowering arbitrary and lawless authoritarianism.
Wow that’s a pretty spooky thesis. I suspect you haven’t heard of the DPRK, the People’s Republic of China or Cuba as the censorship practiced within those nations have largely destroyed any reactionary counter-revolutionary movements and allowed the establishment of socialism. I would strongly suggest you de-spook yourself of liberal idealism and stop talking about things like ‘authoritarianism’ and bizarre inalienable rights against censorship.
>>136050
>I think you can have a free press
More spooky liberal idealism. In a state under revolutionary communist leadership all press must serve the people who are led by the Communist Party and uphold the principals such as the mass line and democratic centralism. To advocate individual ownership is to advocate subversiveness and western liberalism.

I would strongly suggest that you both re-read the Marxist Leninist canon with particular emphasis on the works of Mao Zedong, Joseph Stalin, Lin Biao and ancient Chinese legalist philosophers such as philosophers Shang Yang, Li Si, and Hanfeizi to de-spook yourselves.

Thank you.

>>136055
>a decentralized market economy with restrictions is the solutions
Not the entirety of what I'm referring to, or even what I proposed. Rules such as ownership, marketshare, and profit restriction would directly prevent all but the smallest forms of payola. On top of that are countless other measures you're undoubtedly familiar with such as equal time doctrines, community ownership, research institutes, etc.
>How is this better than labor vouchers again?
Of course it isn't, but a full transition to decentralized blockchain planned moneyless economy or whatever obviously isn't immediately possible. What I'm talking about can and has been done successfully.

>>136061
>the censorship practiced within those nations have largely destroyed any [...] movements and allowed the establishment of socdem neoliberalism with a grumpy face
>all press must serve the people who are [...] the State Capitalist Party
Interesting insight, cracka
>To advocate individual ownership
At no point have I done that

>>136061
Just so we make this clear: you are talking to someone who "argues" by equating his opponents to transsexual twitter maoists.

>>136062
>State Capitalist Party
Hot meme, kids. Start another thread about this so you can be raped there and leave this thread to discussing Bolivia.

>>136064
>equating his opponents to transsexual twitter maoists
So maybe you should stop talking like a transsexual twitter maoist?

>>136067
You are talking to like 4 people here, genius. Apparently everyone is a transsexual to you who ridicules your liberal spooks. Now get the fuck out of this thread, you useless cunt.

>>136069
I'm not the one who started a derail of "y'know what Bolivia needs if the coup is defeated? AN IRONCLAD CENSORSHIP REGIME THAT WILL DESTROY US IF IT FALLS INTO PORKY'S HANDS FOR EVEN A MOMENT!"

>>136073
>AN IRONCLAD CENSORSHIP REGIME
this is what liberals actually believe

>>136076
>just the tip
Also, that's rich, considering your repeated disingenuous equations of "no censorship" with "privatization"

>>136062
Let me clear this up, are you making the assertion that revolutionary nations such as Cuba, the DPRK and the PRC are all State Capitalist?! I recognise that many Communist have criticisms of the PRC particularly after the reforms made by Deng but to include Cuba and the DPRK on this as well?!! You do realise that both nations are controlled by a vanguard party representing the proletariat class and controlling the means of production which is pursuant to Karl Marx’s definition of socialism as contained in ‘ The Critique of the Gotha Program’- 1875.

Also “Cracka”. Can you define what you meant by this?

Thanks.

How the fuck is publicly owned press a censorship regime?

>>136085
He's the worst kind of Frankenstein monster: when it comes to proposition he's a syndicalist, when it comes to value judgments he's a liberal, when it comes to criticism of really existing socialism he's a leftcom.

Basically the guy managed to wall himself off on all sides from any kind of communist politics. It's kinda genius and vomit inducing at the same time.

>>136085
>Cuba
The best of the bunch, IMHO as an accidental result of isolation by its geography and sanctions preventing access to perverse incentives.
>DPRK
Retarded monarchy that mismanaged an initial lead over SK into the only peacetime famine outside Africa, rents slaves to work in foreign countries, and should've been regime change'd by PRC again yonks ago.
>PRC
Replaying yuropoor history 150 years ago with a lick of red paint, hopefully their WWI will be less retarded.
>are all State Capitalist
And red fash
Stop bumping your hollaback retwat-tier shitposts

>>136090
>publicly owned press
"State operated" is perhaps a more precise description of the wrong system
>a censorship regime
Because anyone outside the good graces of the current ruling regime is denied an outlet for mass expression in proportion with their popularity, and anyone in it is subject to arbitrary censure.

>>136094
You're a real peach, too. Neolib when it comes to proposition, fascist when it comes to moral judgement, and socdem when it comes to criticism of failing systems

>>136096
Found the chapocel

>>136103
>accusing me of being a goon

>>136085
>Also “Cracka”. Can you define what you meant by this?

Comrade Parrot is worried that you might be talking about his favourite food, and wants to ask whether there were any changes made in the production plan without him knowing about it.

>>136096
>"State operated" is perhaps a more precise description of the wrong system
So you don't think public ownership is possible?

>>136119
I think that is a term that can be applied or misapplied to a great many things

On the one hand, it could refer to a profitless public service open to and encouraging direct involvement by the citizenry, especially on a local/regional level.

On the other hand, it could refer to a Voice of the Americas-type propaganda outlet exclusively staffed by handpicked recruits from government bureaus, tightly monitored by both official and secret posts for active intelligence agency thugs.

>>136113

Not the anon you're replying too but I feel like adding to discussion. I don't think all socialist states are created equal in the sense that the DPRK isn't capitalist, but it's not socialist either. They have a socialist aesthetic sure (so does Angola) but from I've been able to gather it is actually a totalitarian state that oppresses its people en mass. Economically it operates more as a military dictatorship utilizing planned economics, which is not the same thing as socialism. Socialism requires ownership of the means of production by the working classes. A political and military elite extracting from the working classes as gunpoint does not fit this definition.

Whereas Cuba I think has its issue but is overall a freer society than the United States. And Cuba itself is actually socialist because its state enterprise is controlled through real democratic process. In Cuba international observers are actually been allowed to monitor elections (unlike the DPRK) and they have been proven democratic for decades. Cuba is not a closed society and does have free speech. This is despite the moronic arguments made by liberals who can't comprehend, that yes, the people of Cuba did genuinely ban capitalist parties through democratic means and, no, those means were not nor have ever been rigged. Cuba to my knowledge is the only true socialist state left. In a hostile world of succdems, warlords, porky, military juntas and monarchs it must get quite lonely on that beautiful island.

>>136145

Well, as lonely as it can be in a place where one is free. As poor as their economic prospects might be their environment is intact, they have healthcare, education and never have to worry about housing or food. All the gawking Americans that go down their and point how their markets don't have consumerist garbage like coco puffs don't understand how rich the Cuban people truly are. To be liberated from the eternal struggle of survival is a richness like nothing our poor western lumpenprole has ever or may ever experience. Writing this I feel a great longing, one that if only my brothers around could feel would bring revolution tomorrow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOnfHDBW7SA

>>136150

Damn, hopefully this one isn't blocked by the copyright gestapo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQm2EGekttM

>>136119
>>136123
The premise is that you don't want to have privatised press because then it will just amplify the voice of the owner, and that would be a sort of censorship because it de-facto drowns out the voices from other people. The reason why market based press does not serve free speech in it's original intent, is because ownership of the press in markets will consolidate into a few hands.

When Jeff from the online-shopping company bought Wapo he specifically did that as an instrument of power, with public opinion to be something to be manipulated to serve his personal interests. So technically Jeff speech.

Now if you want to have a publicly owned press you get the advantage that somebodies personal interests are not likely to be as pervasively amplified then in the privatised press, but you still are likely to have a clique of media savvy people that would likely interfere with the press so that public interests would no longer be central.

So while publicly owned or state operated press is likely still better, but only marginal because there usually are more factions inside a government that curb each others Bullshit a little more than inside a privately owned corporation.

So You need to produce a structural pressure to allow for more voices. One possible example of this is to measure the view-count of media and allocate funding according to that, you also would counter act the drive towards lowest-common denominator media by introducing a additional factor for the distribution of funding where increasing viewership has diminishing returns for funding. So small media programs get more funding per view than big ones. This should preserve quality and variety.

Lastly it's rather idealist to pretend that media is unbiased or not affected by funding sources. So media produced and distributed with this scheme are not allowed to argue against this system and are required to tell their viewers this. Additionally they will be required to disclose their ideological bias, and nobody will be allowed to claim not having an ideology.

As far as the process of choosing new media programs, a sort of combination for lottery and quality controle would probably work

So How about this proposal.

>>136154
>When Jeff from the online-shopping company bought Wapo he specifically did that as an instrument of power, with public opinion to be something to be manipulated to serve his personal interests. So technically Jeff speech.
Reminder that sort of rampant consolidation among papers is a recent phenomenon stemming from the elimination of cross-ownership regulations in the 1970s

>>136154
You might find this interesting:
>Upholding the Marxist View of the News Media / by Li Baoshan / Qiushi Journal
http://english.qstheory.cn/magazine/201401/201402/t20140208_318982.htm

>>136154
Oh, and as for the rest of your post, I think there are two (closely related) main things to think about.

The first is that a lot of (though hardly all) common media regulations were built around exploiting geographic limitations, which the Internet has kind'a blown to bits.

The second is the split between "big" and "small" stories: Small stories were traditionally handled by individual reporters or freelancers for wire services, and big/difficult stories required "newsroom model" big journalism to research. Obviously, the former is easy for the Internet to handle itself given adequate revenue models and presents little hazard of corruption with competent regulations, while the latter is basically untenable from a private revenue standpoint online today and presents enormous corruption hazards whether state or private.

Given then that only the problems of "big" journalism merit any serious consideration in an even moderately healthy system, I'll consider that.

Probably the closest thing to a viable solution I can think of is for both technological and regulatory reasons would be to separate deep research from public-facing media, and instead do it with thinktank-type research organizations, most of which would be tied openly to or literally just be political parties.

In line with sane funding and disclosure requirements on political parties, this would neatly solve both problems.

>>136159
>Reminder that sort of rampant consolidation among papers is a recent phenomenon stemming from the elimination of cross-ownership regulations in the 1970s
Oh fair enough, but you just said that it needs special regulations to function, since it can be abolished, it probably will eventually. In principle you want to have inline structural design that leads to a good outcome, not bad structural design combine with corrective fix.

>>136167
This is interesting, but I wonder how much of this can be applied to the western world. China had a communist party in power for over half a century and they had the time for detailed institutional design. The general theme of this article is about the position of socialism that has to be defended, while in the west the position of socialism has to be achieved. As far as government prestige goes in the west neo-liberal policies have eroded that to a significant degree. So we have not a lot of upholding to do and more about gaining prestige.

Still this article has a number of interesting points like the psychological bias of predominantly negative news. I think that this is a reasonable critique point that under-reporting of positive developments will cause a skewed perception of reality.

Also the aspect of underestimated background publicity for the socialist project, seems true. Again i don't know how we would apply this for western conditions, because unlike china that is a society that is rising, the western world is a society in decline, that makes it harder to have positive publicity.

Negating the influence of private wealth-minority interests by government mandate is a reasonable thing to do, but again the western world hasn't been very successful in doing that. Consider that the historic defeat of socialist positions in the western world leads me to think that there is a need to seek out much more fundamental structural biases towards making the general public interest central to the media landscape.

On a side note i don't see why china would open up for western media, the mainstream current in western press doesn't just interpret the facts differently, they recently have begun to outright lie and falsify facts.

https://twitter.com/JeanineAnez/status/1197688876908855299
>We regret the deaths of our brothers in El Alto. It hurts us because we are a government of peace, and I ask that we join together to reconcile. I make the cabinet available to start the dialogue and I ask the international organizations and the Church for their support.
"government of peace"

>>136172
Can you elaborate what you mean with think tanks, and how those help the socialist project.

Neolibs will think this is ok If any fucking idiot falls or this they need to shot immediately

>>136302
>Neolibs will think this is ok
what does "this" refer to, did you forget to kick a post number to refer to ?

>>136298
That^

>>136301
"Big journalism", able to match its institutional targets (government, NGOs, business, organized crime, etc.) in capability yet independent of them, is necessary to break certain large, obscure, or long-running stories. However, no funding model for such a thing is viable in the Internet age.

Of surviving institutions with similar capabilities, thinktanks are the most journalism-like, and in fact many of the most important scoops were broken as the result of research papers by thinktanks subsequently summarized for the general public by journos, a task that can be performed just as well by 'net randos today. The principle flaw with thinktanks is that they are highly partisan, yet isolated from normal checks of the political process, and frequently funded more by wealthy individuals than by open ideological tendencies.

My thought then circles around to another once ubiquitous tradition of journalism, that of the party paper, or the union paper. Since parties (and unions) are legally very different from essentially any other kind of organization, they can have funding and transparency requirements imposed on them which would be totally impractical for anything else. By combining that with an emphasis on investigation/research/analysis, the carefully regulated tension between rival parties would produce high quality intelligence from every perspective for nerds like us to pore over and disseminate to the general population.

>>136050
What even is "free press" to you? Do you even think logically about what that term could mean or do you just have fuzzy feelings and associations about it due to burger indoctrination? If you care about free speech, say free speech. Press is something run by those who are well off. Why should they have extra-special bonus rights on top of being fucking rich? If you mean something applying to everybody, say free speech. What does the free press do? They lie. Hugo Chávez gives a speech, a newspaper then just makes up some shit he didn't say and claims he said that and photoshops a gun into his hand. I know it is valuable to the David Pakmans of the world that the press is free to do that. It isn't valuable to me.

Media is paid by ads. This is not a new phenomenon, time travel to the 1970s and ask one running a newspaper what percentage of their income is due to what the readers directly pay them. He will tell you that the stream from the ads is much bigger. Advertisers can and do punish content they don't like. And they don't have to communicate explicitly that threat because it is obvious to those working in the media. Your complaints about "foreign capital" are beside the point, since capitalists in the country have by and large the same incentives.

>>136328
>What even is "free press" to you?
Different poster. It's the ability to run a press without fear of being summarily shut down for wrongspeak.

>>136332
And going bankrupt because advertisers withdraw because they didn't like what you publish is completely different from that because… why? Because the words are different even though the picture is the same? Because you have terminal liberalism?

>>136343
>because… why?
Because there are practical ways around it short of "print underground paper and kill any cops that become aware of your identity"

Like, yes, the current system sucks, regulations to make it suck less are an annoying endless struggle, and coming up with a newer better system is hard. But you're just pushing an even older system, one that is much, much, MUCH worse.

Finally

>>136360
If she also denounced Russiagate with the vehemence of Jimmy Dore, she would be 10/10 waifu.

>>136049
>propaganda and mass media expressions aren't materials things
are you fucking retarded ?

>>136050
"free press" is just the lib term for "press under complete corporate control". Fuck this shit. A gov news agency + a subvention to citizen orgs is enough

>>136390
"Free" press is the same thing as "free" markets.

>>136320
It seems that with "think tank" you want to separate the research aspect of news and the distribution aspect of news into different organisations.

And the structural purpose seems to be that you want to have a group of people (called nerds) to somehow pre-chew the information before it goes towards the general public.

>>136332
ok, so we have to allow explicit alphabet soups to set up shop and smear us with the full might of the US propaganda fund to be able to claim "free press" ?

>>136328
cause he's a red liberal who probably arrived from reddit recently

>>136332
>It's the ability to run a press
nobody runs a press like that nowadays you dumb cunt. Almost all local newspapers are extinct. For decades they've been consolidating under megacorps because capitalist firms tend to consolidate into monopolies over time. This isn't free speech you fucking idiot. This isn't some glorious, idealistic crusade of free-thinking journalists doing super deep investigative research to get the baddies. No. The "press" is a cut throat market funded by advertisers with the deliberate purpose of creating ideological narratives and reaching the widest audience as possible.

>>136347
>one that is much, much, MUCH worse.
says who? old =/= bad. a lot of older ideas and models are dropped out of inconvenience to the ruling ideology, not because they are inherently bad. The only reason you say have such a visceral fear of a different media system is because you've been instinctively taught that everything that departs from the status quo is bad.

>>136390
>propaganda and mass media expressions aren't materials things
No, as opposed to being run over by a tank, just for instance.
>a subvention to citizen orgs is enough
This sounds worryingly vague and vulnerable to suppression/astroturf

>>136391
"Muh free market of ideas" misinterpretation in 3, 2...

>>136393
As long as they admit that's what they are

>>136397
>nowadays
Indeed, maybe that's because of a generally crumbling regulatory regime in the press and all other areas?

>>136401
>The only reason you say have such a visceral fear of a different media system is because you've been instinctively taught that everything that departs from the status quo is bad.
No, it's because censorship is tightly associated with authoritarian, backward systems such as feudalism, theocracy, colonialism, and fascism, while to free expression is associated with groups and ideologies that have pushed civilization forward.

>>136402
>crumbling regulatory regime in the press and all other areas?
The regulatory regime has been crumbling for decades. It's chiseled away at slowly and deliberately because Capitalists have the time and money to keep pushing the margins of acceptability.
And, no, nowadays is an extension of a process that has begun since the 1970s. So at least 50 years lmao

>>136405
Maybe we should try fighting that, instead of ACCELERATING it?

>>136404
>associated with
guilt by association is not guilt. And you jump to the most extreme examples. Modern societies have also practiced censorship. Censorship can mean a whole variety of things. In the contemporary media censorship is usually enforced by a strict silence on certain subjects and a magnified focus on certain issues. Market discipline creates layers of censorship. Consolidation of private media empires creates censorship.
>Maybe we should try fighting that
Regulations are a form of censorship. And that is a good thing. The original contention was that some regulation of Bolivian media space would have helped prevent Morales' overthrow, so I agree regulations are good. However, it's usually not enough.
>Maybe we should try fighting that
That isn't how it works. The genie is out of the bottle. The giant power of media monopolies will resist against any regulations on its person. It has the mouthpiece, the lobbying apparatus and political clout to prevent even the smallest regulations of itself. The government has become to sclerotic to combat Capitalism by mere decree and fiat. Short of a revolution, capitalist media landscape will resist regulation of any sort

>>136408
Alright, sage off, let's cut the crap. I'm sure we can discuss the apologia for red fash or whatever endlessly in another thread. Here's the brass tacks:
>The original contention was that some regulation of Bolivian media space would have helped prevent Morales' overthrow
This >>135993 sounded a lot more specific than that to me, shutting down most or all independent media, possibly even individuals on Twatter or whatever, purely on the basis of what they've said.

If this was, as stated in my first reply, about prosecuting people for ACTS (working directly with armed insurrectionaries, pretending not to be fed by CIA agents or certain political parties, etc.) rather than EXPRESSIONS, I'd be fine with it.

>>136404
>because bad_word3483 is tightly associated with bad_word430 and bad_word339. I know they are bad words because they were uttered in proximity to each other while I was shown dark grayish pictures during my time at university of McDonald's.
If the government forbids you from working in a field for X years after a series of collossal fuckups on your part: CENSORSHIP.
If you get put on a blacklist by a huge media company for saying things the boss of the bosses doesn't like to hear: FREEDOM.

>>136410
the anon started with a statement proposing a mild regulation of media. that would make sense in a politically fragile situation such as Morales found himself in a few weeks ago. At the very least, the government should have a right to temporarily suspend media and social media in an emergency that was clearly created in collusion with outside forces. Of course, it's hard to do this in the current landscape of smartphones and twitter, but slowing internet and phone service works.
>all independent media
It's not independent media if it's owned by a small, incestuous click of media moguls. If a group of less than 10 people control the organs of communication, as they are doing now in Bolivia, to dictate and mediate reality for the majority of citizens, then the government has a right to intervene directly. The power imbalance is absurd. Before the coup, Bolivian media was shilling for the coup instigators. After the coup, they justify the coup, make calls for calm, and erase any resistance to the coup that developed on the ground. This is merely authoritarianism by other means, the authoritarianism of capitalist oligarchs

>>136416
>If you get put on a blacklist by a huge media company for saying things the boss of the bosses doesn't like to hear
There are laws against that, too.

>>136421
>a mild regulation of media
Didn't read that way to me, looks like "shud id down :DDDD".
>the government should have a right to temporarily suspend media and social media in an emergency that was clearly created in collusion with outside forces
No. That is a practice ubiquitously abused at the exact most crucial times for media scrutiny.
>It's not independent media if it's owned by a small, incestuous click of media moguls.
Define any of those terms. Huh, maybe it would be better to have trustbuster laws in place already instead?

>>136402
ok, you're basically a retard liberal with no argumentation and shitty takes, fuck off

>>136426
>There are laws against that, too.
Just because a law exists doesn't mean its effective or enforced whatsoever
>practice ubiquitously abused at the exact
Didn't prevent news of protests in Iran from reaching the foreign press. Or news from Egypt, or anywhere. Perhaps it's of dubious value, is the better argument. It's hard to measure how effective such measures are in tamping down on dissent and counterrevolution.
>Define any of those terms.
What can't you comprehend?
>to have trustbuster laws in place
Why are you here? If your going to be peddling stale, ineffectual proposals of the Democratic Parties, Reddit might be a place better suited to your constitution. If your concern is merely to create a better oiled capitalist machine that in ideal circumstances breaks up capitalistic monopolies in a cyclical process, you are not a leftist. First of all, Trust Busting was never as effective as it was purported to be, not is it rational. Breaking up ATT and Standard Oil didn't really work in practice. Second, the political will for constant trustbusting is not sustainable. Capital fights back through lobbying, bribing, and increasing influence in government. There are simply too many monopolies which continues to grow faster than the government can break them up. Again, short of a radical, nearly violent, pressure on the government, possibly its overthrow, will a process of trust busting be effective for a short time.

>>136432
also if you break up monopolies, they merely remerge again, or form oligopolies or cartels

>>136432
>Just because a law exists doesn't mean its effective or enforced whatsoever
>short of a radical, nearly violent, pressure on the government, possibly its overthrow, will a process of trust busting be effective for a short time.
Bingo. The effectiveness of reformism waxes and wanes alongside the dual power (public participation, unions, proletarian insurrection, etc.) needed to power it.
>Didn't prevent news of protests in Iran from reaching the foreign press.
It interfered with it, but regardless, its most severe effect is to keep locals in the dark, and allow state propaganda to more easily go unopposed.
>Why are you here? If your going to be peddling stale, ineffectual proposals of the Democratic Parties, Reddit might be a place better suited to your constitution.
Even successful revolutions won't magically cause the problems of the present to go away. If anything, they push perils of repression even starker, and the need for reformism to staunch them even dearer.

Constant vigilance is required merely to stand still. To secure steady gains, constant radical activity is required.

>>136298
Que asco que me da la loca esta.

>>136435
>Even successful revolutions won't magically cause the problems of the present to go away. If anything, they push perils of repression even starker, and the need for reformism to staunch them even dearer.
This came across a little vague, so perhaps I'll rephrase it:
Reformism is always necessary, and unlike revolution, must always be happening. As such, the purpose of any good revolution must be to make good reforms easier NOT halt reform.

>>136410
>shutting down most or all independent media, possibly even individuals on Twatter or whatever, purely on the basis of what they've said.
work on reading comprehension retard, if you think the bazillions of reactionnary medias are "independant" in any way you're stupid, twitter is basically an arm of US foreign dept, how the fuck do you suppose bolivia could control it ?

>rather than EXPRESSIONS
yeah, lying through your teeth on the most viewed news channels to support violent coups against your democratically elected governement and mass repressions of the ppl by the army shouldn't get you in trouble, it's free press ! srsly go back to reddit moron

>>136435
>The effectiveness of reformism waxes and wanes alongside the dual power
That isn't a good thing. You act as though reformism is some natural force that somehow, in itself, waxes and wanes of its own accord on account of vague notions of "public mood", "energy", and other idealistic categories about the spirits of the people. The reality is is that reformism is not effective anymore because Capitalists have found the techniques to neutralize it. Not until actual material conditions reach dire circumstances will you see reformism to matter, and we're not even close to there yet.
>its most severe effect is to keep locals in the dark
In Bolivia's case, that would have been beneficial. Pro-Coup protesters might have been slowed down enough to mobilize opposition instead of creating the convenient and significant enough street theater necessary for the police and military to defect to the "protestors"
>Even successful revolutions won't magically cause
Or course not, but reformism doesn't either.
>repression even starker,
Such as? Revolutions usually arrive in the midst of war, severe repression or economic crisis, in circumstances of hostile domestic and international circumstances. Naturally there is going to be more death and repression on account of the initial fragility of a revolutionary state. Reformism arises if a political regime is more stable and benefit from the danger of revolutions abroad to force capitalist concessions.
>Constant vigilance is required merely to stand still.
And as things currently stand, this is a capitulation to capitalist realism, to a "happy authoritarianism". It is not realistic to keep a mass movement constantly mobilized unless it is institutionalized. And institutions rot and warp under capitalist pressure too. Effectively, this is a statement of resignation to the status quo because it's an impossible demand to make.

>>136426
>There are laws against that, too.
no, plain false in most place, and they'd be impossible to enforce anyway.
>maybe it would be better to have trustbuster laws in place
are you aware that capital usually control political institutions AND media institutions ? also, if 4 competing porkies own all media, it's technically not a trust.

you're a really naive retard, and any socialist org should throw out idiots like you to have any hope of success
youre basically a shitty socdem, go back to reddit or go read a book for once

>>136448
As I've said, there are ways of dealing with these traitors, ways that can actually be enforced in a clear and objective way, not involving censorship. Moreover, ways that are already law in Bolivia.

>>136451
>The reality is is that reformism is not effective anymore because Capitalists have found the techniques to neutralize it.
Ridiculous end of history nonsense IMHO. We're at a period of low ebb for popular class consciousness globally, which has strengthened the oppressor class, nothing more nor less. This has happened before and much worse.
>It is not realistic to keep a mass movement constantly mobilized unless it is institutionalized.
Institutionalization is what kills mass movements. Institutions can be designed to provide a good conduit for mass movements, but zeitgeist must happen in constant tension with any state or other institutional power.

>>136298
>Those who understand bacterial resistance in the biological domain completely fail to grasp the dictum by Seneca in De clemencia about the inverse effect of punishments. He wrote: “Repeated punishment, while it crushes the hatred of a few, stirs the hatred of all … just as trees that have been trimmed throw out again countless branches.” For revolutions feed on repression, growing heads faster and faster as one literally cuts a few off by killing demonstrators. There is an Irish revolutionary song that encapsulates the effect:The higher you build your barricades, the stronger we become.
>The crowds, at some point, mutate, blinded by anger and a sense of outrage, fueled by the heroism of a few willing to sacrifice their lives for the cause (although they don’t quite see it as sacrifice) and hungry for the privilege to become martyrs. It is that political movements and rebellions can be highly antifragile, and the sucker game is to try to repress them using brute force rather than manipulate them, give in, or find more astute ruses, as Heracles did with Hydra.
-NN(Gabish)Taleb, Anti-Fragile
The coup-mongers are incompetents.
Also, if anyone is triggered by the Taleb quote, I will add that the idea did not originate with him in any way, as the Seneca sub-quote makes obvious. He just expresses what is at the heart of it. If you are also curious, you could watch Jules Dassin's (old time French Commie) film, 'He Who Must Die (1958)' that presents the same idea. The Revolution is alive and well!

Kindly take your discussions about free press and reformism to a separate thread, this should be about developments in Bolivia.

>>136463
Okay

>>136461
Not sure if that quote holds true. If the protestors don't get their hands on weapons soon, what is to stop the putschists from just mowing people down until they become too dispirited to keep sacrificing themselves? It's working well enough for the Zionists at the Gaza fence, sadly.

Argue about free speech here
>>136469
>>136469
>>136469

>>136463
Bolivia is a case study of free press and reformism tbh fam

>>136459
>there are ways of dealing with these traitors, ways that can actually be enforced in a clear and objective way, not involving censorship
nice, could you be anymore vague with your wishful thinking ?

>>136466
>until they become too dispirited
I don't imagine that seeing your comrades being murdered, while you still have a fighting chance, can de-spirit you in any way. To argue that injustice seeps spirit is nonsense. And unless you are a 'muh black pill' cuck, you should have none of it.
>If the protestors don't get their hands on weapons soon
If the protesters didn't have the spirit to prior, then I can assure you that they have the spirit to now.

You fags better have shared the tear gas mask diy instead of just derailing

>>136595
Derailing is an actual COINTELPRO tactic.

Max Blumenthal on His Arrest and the Bolivian Coup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Pb7Q5aSmi0

>>136732
discusion starts at 46:00

>>136749
So the army is just fine replicating the Nazi's interesting

>>136759
They were like hmm, let's copy Pinoshit that seems like a great idea. Fuck the International stage being silent on this bullshit and Fuck the US for continuing to lead us to our extinction.

>>136779
What happened to the soldiers that defected to Evo's side? not enough of them to make any difference?

>>136797
Also, what happened to the legislative assembly? Last I heard, they were set to condemn the coup and reject Morales' "resignation", before they were barred from entering the palace.

What exactly is the disposition/structure of the coup government right now?

>>136800
who knows, the media are acting like all of this is perfectly normal democratic procedure

https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1198046832527597568
>VP of Evo's MAS party gets arrested

https://twitter.com/brunosgarzini/status/1198013528134815744
>military occupying the supreme electoral tribunal in La Paz

https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1197948173689511936
>nurse who was attending the dead and wounded in senkata arrested under allegations of terrorism and disguising himself as a cop and soldier

https://twitter.com/wyattreed13/status/1197886204487913472
>student independent press gets harassed by "sellout press" then handed to the army (subtitled)

https://twitter.com/Diputados_Bol/status/1198019561741787142
<google translate
>"THE MAS -IPSP seeks to give a way out and viability to the conflict in the country, but that does not mean that we stop the violation of Human Rights, there are people killed in the streets, there are 34 deaths, a thousand wounded and more than a thousand detainees."

>>136749
Reminds me of Panama.
We will never know how many people died in this until mass graves are discovered decades later

>>136749
>nobody knows where they take them
80s vibes of here in El Salvador's civil war and the National Police disappearing people they """"suspected"""""of being guerrilleros. This shit is so horrible, and we cannot do crap about it.

>>136496
>I don't imagine that seeing your comrades being murdered, while you still have a fighting chance, can de-spirit you in any way. To argue that injustice seeps spirit is nonsense. And unless you are a 'muh black pill' cuck, you should have none of it.
... he said from the safe comfort of his armchair. If you think seeing people get shot in front of you only steels the nerves, you are an idiot.

Have not seen a single Guerrilla group either from lack of coverage or their are none

>AMAZING. The self-proclaimed cynicism of #Bolivia knows no limits, plays with the lie about acting disgustingly. Who has sent the police and the army to kill without consequences? Who has promoted racism and hatred among Bolivians? #Cuba #Venezuela
https://twitter.com/GuerreroCuba/status/1198214982879653888
Translation requested.

Right wing narrative: Evo told us to blockade food going into cities, YET HE IS CAUGHT EATING FOOD!
https://twitter.com/NadieSeRinde_Bo/status/1198248276660756485

>>137240
>breitbart
Sounds legit

Right wing anti-communist narrative:
>Hunger as a method of control: from the Soviet Union to Bolivia
>Lenin starved 5 million, Stalin more than 7 million, while in Venezuela 60% of people go to sleep hungry
[lol, sources?]

<The Ministry of Government in Bolivia announced that Evo Morales intended to use hunger to control Bolivians. He ordered the isolation of La Paz so that no food or fuel enters. But this is not an original idea or an isolated case, but a method implemented in every socialist government.

< «Brother, that does not enter food to the cities, we are going to block. Real fence. When I was expelled from Congress in 2002, they blocked. Now they expel me from Bolivia and there is a blockade. We will win. (…) If the Assembly rejects my resignation, I will try to come back, even if they stop me, ”said Evo Morales, who from exile tried to destabilize the current Government to regain power.

<Hunger as a method of population control has been a strategy used in socialist systems to hold on to power. This is emphasized by the Cuban artist Marichal, author of the song Anatomy of Socialism, where he explains that once you understand how the mechanism works, you know what to expect. That is why he affirms that the socialist methodology must be studied, since it repeats the same patterns in all countries.

< «From the Soviet Union, through Cuba and Venezuela, we have all fallen into the same trap», begins the song where he warns: «Latin America, wake up. So you don't fall for the same. Look at the past and learn what communism brings up your sleeve ».

«I studied countries where communism existed. And I discovered that the modus operandi has been the same. Each totalitarian regime has used the same libretto, where the end ... of the story is to submit a whole town. I looked for a thousand data, made my comparisons and discovered that there is a coincidence in all their actions, ”the song continues.

>>137240
I'm surprised nobody saw it coming when they complained about indigenous farmers. Did they really think the indigenous would help people in the big cities eat when they've been getting slaughtered at protests?
That's what happens when campesinos don't like you, you don't eat.

>>137245
sry, forgot sauce: https://es.panampost.com/mamela-fiallo/2019/11/23/hambre-union-sovietica-bolivia/

>>137240
>doing a blockade is only okay when we do it!!!!!

>>137246
Let's get the chronological order straight, comrade.

1) The election results are contested by "neutral" sources.
2) Evo is ousted (contra constitution).
3) Fascist dictator is installed.
4) New Mrs. pornstar dictator tweets about "satanist indians who should be barred from entering Bolivian cities" plus the police burning indigenous flags.
5) The indigenous masses leave their work (plant cultivation) en masse to enter the cities to protest.
6) Shitty Bolivian roads are blocked by hundred-thousansds of them.
7) Food shortage occurs "out of nowhere".
8) THIS IS EVO'S FAULT!

...

>Brazil's leftist leader Lula, speaking in a congress of the Workers' Party:
> "After what we have seen in Bolivia, we should be proud of everything that the Venezuelan people resisted to not submit themselves to the whims of the US government"
https://twitter.com/LemusteleSUR/status/1198071347261427712

translation requested

TeleSUR:
>This is what #Bolivia has become now.
https://twitter.com/telesurenglish/status/1198081315884679168

Indian Warren: Bolivia "Sure Looks Like" A Coup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNRQoszGEmE

[nsfw/gore]
>Massacre after massacre in Bolivia: the world without consequences. A young woman lies on the floor bleeding profusely, while her people scream desperately. Media owners are not interested. She is an indigenous woman and can be killed without consequences by racist killers.
https://twitter.com/GuerreroCuba/status/1198024360860225537

>>137272
Comment says that happened in bogota, colombia not bolivia. We should probably have a thread about it though, or maybe unify all the happenings in LatAm in one thread.

No food for Gusano faggots

https://twitter.com/AgenciaBoliviaR/status/1198253728010256391
>#LaPaz will be the scene, this Saturday, of intense mobilizations. The Human Rights Commission is already in the country and the de facto government will be careful when repressing. There will be cabildos in the capital, El Alto.
#GolpeDeEstadoEnBolivia
Looks like next saturday will be big. Also have a look at the twitter profile if you want to see the recent police repression in cochabamba.

>>137070
you don't get it.

>>137280
>European Union and Catholic Church are guarantors
they're fucked, they just gonna get buttfucked by paramilitary and cops while everyone pretend the fascists didnt do nuthin and elections are fair
seriously, accepting to redo elections that you just won because they didnt let you win is stupid. Or they will cheat, or they will coup you again.

>>137346
I think I get why people fetishize liberal democracy and alternating political power with the other party now. Ultimately, it's an intrinsic threat. Liberals will act as if the transfer of power in itself prevents instability and is a sign of civility. In reality, it is an implicit threat, or recognition, that if the right is denied power for too long, they will rebel against your government and overthrow is militarily. On the other hand, the pendulic transfer of governances from right liberals to left liberals is also a signal of the working class' fundamental weakness. In an actual democracy worth its name, it would seem natural that the majority, i.e. the working classes, should be permanently in power on account of their voting power. However, when such power is represented, or appears to be represented, then the threat of a coup or counter revolutionary heightens exponentially. In Spain, for example, the Second Republic plunged into Civil War in the late 1930s as the Right realized that, for the forseeable future, their faction would be locked out of power on account of their fundamental electoral weakness. So they launched a bloody ruthless military rebellion that massacred the workers. The same thing happened in Chile. The right became structurally locked out of power, so they chose to overthrow the government with Pinochet. Plots even arose against FDR and the British Labour governments in embryonic form. Leon Blum had to rule like a conservative economically because of intense threats from the Right, and the specter of the Spanish Civil War raging across the border. The Right will never let you hold power for long periods of time, because controlling the government from the left is a fundamental threat to their prerogatives to profit and exploit their workers like chattel

>>137322
amen

>>137356
TL;DR

>>137360
Well, yes. But there is a particular logic of class struggle in the mechanisms of liberal democracy, and the perception of the bourgeois powers that they do not have a voice in the government will lead them to betray democracy if it is convenient. They may eventually reimpose democracy, as happened in Chile and Spain, but only once the collective strength of the working class has been neutered. It is a kind of political eugenics. The accumulated experience and tradition of the working class parties in early 20th century spain- their organizational experience, their solidarity, their hostility to the bourgeois order- was literally wiped from existence. Franco literally outright exeucted, by firing squad and forced labor, 400,000 Spanish workers in the aftermath of the SCW. In a sense the Fascists ARE right. From their perspective, Communism is a disease on capitalist society, and their solution to eliminate through efficient, ruthless execution, the body of politically active workers from their society, was an unremitting success. Hitler also effectively genocided the some of the most competent and radical Communists and social democrats. Pinochet, among others like the Brazilian and Argentine dictatorships, also decapitated the workers' movements. The consequence is that talent and experience is wiped out, and the massacre becomes a foundational moment for future generations, a warning to all radicals that if they stray too far left outside the neoliberal consensus, they will be ruthlessly exterminated

>>137364
cont.
Also, interestingly, on 4chan /his/ there was a group of posters who like to glorify Pinochet as a modern day Sulla. Sulla massacred thousands of his enemies in wanton violence, rewrote the Roman constitution, and then stepped down to let his constitution order be followed. They think that a foundational ruthless moment by a supreme lawgiver is some kind of model to idolize and follow, because they have a fundamental hatred of the poor

>>137370
>He wasn't populares
Disdain for optimates. Of course Penisshit cock-suckers love the party that threw Rome into decadence and hedonism.

Translate,plz
>Bolivia tv integrating the country through social networks.
https://twitter.com/Canal_BoliviaTV/status/1198321800024928256

>>137373
She is just bitching at AMLO for giving Evo asylum and "leetting him use mexico as a base of operations". Also some BS about procedure but I did not understand, doesn't sound important though.

>>137370
>They think that a foundational ruthless moment by a supreme lawgiver is some kind of model to idolize and follow
Then they should definitely re-evaluate Sulla. His reign was merely the opening shot in a generation of vicious civil war, not the foundation for everything but rather a wrecking ball.

Just some military tanks rolling over the blood left by actual protesters.
https://twitter.com/Marco_Teruggi/status/1198289749536133122


;->

>>137372
>>137392
I agree, of course. But they're just projecting their love for strongmen into the past. There's also a weird fetish for the incompetent general Huerta who killed Madero and set off the Mexican Revolution and civil war in earnest. He fucked over the country but they love him because he ruled like a military dictator

>>137399
>He fucked over the country
1) [source?]
2) [if no source: u r lib]

>>137403
what?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoriano_Huerta

>>137410
excerpt
>British historian Alan Knight wrote about Huerta: "The consistent thread which ran through the Huerta regime, from start to finish, was militarisation: the growth and reliance on the Federal Army, the military takeover of public offices, the preference for military over political solutions, the militarisation of society in general".[34] Even a sympathetic historian wrote that Huerta "came very close to converting Mexico into the most completely militaristic state in the world."[35] Huerta's stated goal was a return to the "order" of the Porfiriato, but his methods were unlike those of Diaz, who had shown a talent for compromise and diplomacy; seeking support from and playing off regional elites, using not only army officers but also technocrats, former guerrilla leaders, caciques and provincial elites to support his regime.[36] By contrast, Huerta relied entirely upon the army for support, giving officers all of the key jobs, regardless of their talents, as Huerta sought to rule with La Mano Dura ("The Iron Hand"), believing only in military solutions to all problems.[37] For this reason, Huerta during his short time as President was the object of far more hatred than Diaz ever was; even the Zapatistas had a certain respect for Diaz as a patriarchal leader who had enough sense to finally leave with dignity in 1911, whereas Huerta was seen as a thuggish soldier who had Madero murdered and sought to terrorize the nation into submission.[38] Huerta disliked cabinet meetings, ordered his ministers about as if they were NCOs and displayed in general a highly autocratic style.[39]

>>137135
What they have is better than a guerrilla group. Guerrilla is for when you have no other option. Right now the situation could still go in their favour without guerrilla warfare, which is extremely risky and will bring down the state full force, might even lose them some support with moderates.

Over the last decade or so the population of Bolivia have been almost constantly politically mobilised on mass. Its not like in the west where protests can go by without you really hearing about it. Over there mass mobilisation means the whole country gets shut down.

They know what they are doing. They've been at it for years. I have doubt if things continue on there will be those calling for a guerrilla struggle. Probably there are already those who are.

There's lots of tweets recently bringing up "muh China".

They claim that apparently China had Evo in some sort of debt trap.

Is there any truth to these claims? or is it just the usual propaganda bullshit?

https://twitter.com/adamscrabble/status/1198303293941993472?s=20

>>137521
Sounds like bullshit

>>137494
I've been reading about the water wars in Bolivia that occurred prior to Evo's election and I agree with your analysis. Mass mobilization has been highly effective in Bolivia before and I'm afraid that guerilla warfare might precipitate a conflict that would be harder to win for already effective mobilized protesters.

>>137521
Most likely "Narco Dictator" claims weren't convincing so rightards are grasping for another nitpick

>>137521
No, there is no truth to it whatsoever.

>>131669
Eres chilango camarada?

Im not quite sure how the situation generally looks

>>137396
Bruh that's from bogota, colombia.
<google translate
>See this was last night in Bogotá. Three right-wing governments - Ecuador, Chile and Colombia - and a coup government - Bolivia, also from the right - have deployed the military to cope with the protests.

>>121263
So this appears to be the "official" liberal narrative that has formed. It's actually jarring to read given everything posted in this thread. It's full of contradictions and outright manipulation
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/24/world/americas/how-an-unknown-female-senator-came-to-replace-the-bolivian-strongman-evo-morales.html

>>138550
the protesters are referred to as looters and vandals. no mention is given of the counter-protest. the succession going to jeanine anez is not questioned.
is there anyway for you guys to see past the paywall?

No surprise the american narratives are always non seasonable and full of Bold faced lies Gringos are genuinely mentally ill Its jarring

>>138623
>>138624
The order of these is fucked sorry they uploaded weird

this is from the book "the wikileaks files" which was a compilation and explanation of a whole load of wikileaks leaks. Forgot i had it on my shelf, this is from the section on bolivia

>>138628
They described among other things, US involvement in or consent of, assaination of evo morales, attacks on infrasture including bomb attacks etc, USAID acting as a regime change organisation etc

>>138615
Use the distortion against them

"the will of the people, though is valuable, but we must choose when to act in unison or unilaterally, and adjust our tactics to the current situation, the turgid worm turning itself into the never-ending ourborous of devourment and rebirth"

- J.J. Barger

Imagine if your average american had a alright grasp on politics what kind of world would we be living in is this world even a possibility

>>138628
>>138623
breh, I'm literally breaking my neck trying to read that. But good info anyway.

>>138660
>>138628
>>138624
>>138623
I had uploaded fixed photos but then I found the the epub which is much better:

BOLIVIA

Cables show that, among South American leaders, Evo Morales—after Chávez—has probably been the most strongly opposed by the US government since his election in 2005. Morales’s electoral victory represented a seismic shift in Bolivia’s history—he is the country’s first indigenous president—and cables show that some foreign governments perceived him as “Bolivia’s Mandela.” His triumph at the ballot box by an unprecedented margin[23] came after a string of unpopular predecessors (one, Gonzalo Sánchez de Lozada, notoriously spoke Spanish with an American accent).

As embassy cables reveal, the US government was antagonistic toward Morales from the beginning, referring to him derisively in a State Department background note in 2005, for example, as an “illegal-coca agitator.”[24] This attitude continued even after Morales took office.

On January 3, 2006, just two days after Morales’s inauguration as president, the US ambassador made clear that multilateral assistance to Bolivia would hinge on what the embassy would subsequently refer to as the “good behavior” of the Morales government:

> [The ambassador] also showed the crucial importance of US contributions to key international financial [sic] on which Bolivia depended for assistance, such as the International Development Bank (IDB), the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. “When you think of the IDB, you should think of the US,” the Ambassador said. “This is not blackmail, it is simple reality.”
> …
> “I hope you as the next president of Bolivia understand the importance of this,” he said, “because a parting of the ways would not be good for the region, for Bolivia or for the United States.” [06LAPAZ6] [Emphasis added.]

Unfortunately for the US Department of State, the Morales government would quickly show that it was not interested in a new IMF agreement[25]—an unprecedented stance from a country that had been under IMF agreements for virtually all of the preceding twenty years, and a clear signal to Washington that this was a government determined to be more independent than its predecessors.

>>138689
A few weeks later, Ambassador David Greenlee explicitly laid out a “carrots and sticks” approach to the Morales administration. Many of these related to Bolivia’s relationship with the IDB or to the existing preferential trade arrangement with the US, the ATPDEA:
> 4. (C) Dealing with the MAS-led government will require a careful application of carrots and sticks to encourage good, and to discourage bad, behavior and policy.
> …
> [I]t may be important to send clear signals early on, shots over the bow, that it will not be business as usual. A menu of options that could be used depending on circumstances and that would resonate clearly include:
>
> - Use USG’s veto authority within the IDB’s Fund for Special Operations (from which Bolivia currently receives all its IDB funding) to withhold IDB funding for Bolivia, estimated by the IDB Resrep in Bolivia to total $200 million in 2006.
> - Postpone decision on the forgiveness of IDB debt (approximately $800 million under the Fund for Special Operations and $800 million under the IDB’s regular program) pending clarification of the new GOB’s economic policies.
> - Pursue a postponement of the World Bank’s vote on debt relief for Bolivia. Request a 6-month delay, pending a review of the GOB’s economic policies.
> - Disinvite GOB participation as observers at future Andean FTA events, pending clarification of the new GOB’s interest in participating in the FTA.
> - Discourage GOB interest in pursuing dialogue on a possible MCC compact.
> - Deny GOB requests for logistical support by NAS aircraft and equipment, except in cases of humanitarian disasters.
> - Stop material support (tear gas, anti-riot gear, and other assistance) for Bolivia’s security services.
> - Announce USG intention to not extend the ATPDEA trade benefits beyond the December 31, 2006 expiry date.
[06LAPAZ93]

“Many USAID-administered economic programs run counter to the direction the GOB wishes to move the country,” the cable also noted.

Supporting a violent opposition

Cables and much other evidence reveal that the US government supported a violent opposition movement in Bolivia. The US sought to redefine power relations in Bolivia—to the advantage of regional governments and the detriment of the central government—and used USAID to further this goal: “US assistance via USAID continues at previous levels, but the focus of assistance has shifted from the central government to Bolivia’s prefects and other decentralized players”[26] [06LAPAZ1952] [Emphasis added.]

Significant support was allocated to the opposition-based departments of the “Media Luna,” an eastern “crescent” comprised of Beni, Pando, Santa Cruz, and Tarija, where the majority of Bolivia’s important natural gas deposits lie.[27] A cable from April 2007 describes “USAID’s larger effort to strengthen regional governments as a counter-balance to the central government” [07LAPAZ1167]. A USAID report from 2007 stated that “OTI has approved 101 grants for $4,066,131 to help departmental governments operate more strategically.”[28] A year later, the Media Luna departments would feel sufficiently emboldened to hold referenda on autonomy—despite these having been ruled illegal by the national judiciary.

As this later cable shows, the US embassy in La Paz shared a common political strategy with opposition groups—some of which were pursuing an actual separatist goal—versus the Morales government:
> In a March 27–28 outreach trip to Santa Cruz, A/DCM met briefly with the Prefect (Governor), new Civic Committee President, business leaders, leaders in the forestry sector, a media owner, and the Cardenal. While they understand there are limits to what the US can do to reverse antidemocratic trends in Bolivia, they are grateful for continued US engagement. [09LAPAZ501] [Emphasis added.]

>>138690
Support for departmental governments became, whether intended or not, wrapped up with support for a violent, destructive campaign against the Morales government in the later months of 2008.[29]

When a full-blown political crisis emerged in August and September 2008, there was no public indication that the US government attempted to temper the opposition, and at no point did the US denounce the opposition violence as did, for example, the Union of South American Nations.[30]

Following weeks of violence (in the worst incident, over a dozen indigenous Morales supporters were killed in Porvenir, in Pando province, apparently by a far-right militant group), property destruction (including the ransacking of government offices and the sabotage of a gas pipeline), and road blockades, there was hope that dialogue between the Morales government and the opposition would resolve the crisis. But this cable from September 18, 2008, shows that the opposition preferred a hard line that they did not expect the Morales government to accept, and opposition prefects and the central democratic opposition coalition (CONALDE) “were in agreement” that the “next stage” would be “to blow up gas lines.” The cable does not describe US officials attempting to dissuade the opposition figures from this strategy:

> 7. (C) Opposition Strategist Javier Flores told Emboff the morning of September 17 that the dialogue will break down, “it’s only a question of when.” Flores and opposition civic leader Branko Marinkovic predict more violence after the dialogue fails. Some radicals in the Santa Cruz prefecture and Santa Cruz civic committee reportedly wanted to stop the process yesterday and begin blowing up gas lines, but Flores and Marinkovic advocated playing out the dialogue option first. Once dialogue breaks down, however, the opposition group CONALDE is generally in agreement that the next stage is to blow up gas lines. [08LAPAZ2004]

Similarly, a cable from September 9 shows that “both [Pando prefect Leopoldo Fernández] and also Tarija’s opposition Prefect, Mario Cossio see violence as a probability to force the government to admit to the divisions in the country and take seriously any dialog” [08LAPAZ1931]. Fernández was arrested a week later in connection with the Porvenir massacre two days after this cable, on September 11.[31]

Despite a lack of public commentary from US officials to this effect at the time, cables reveal that internally the State Department took seriously the possibility of Morales’s ouster or assassination in 2008. “Sources report that both sides are armed with personal weapons and ready to fight, with the opposition-aligned Santa Cruz Youth Union and university students reportedly preparing a trap for the government forces which could lead to a bloodbath,” noted a secret cable of September 24, 2008, describing how the Emergency Action Committee would “develop, with [US Southern Command Situational Assessment Team], a plan for immediate response in the event of a sudden emergency, i.e. a coup attempt or President Morales’ death” [08LAPAZ2083].[32]

>>138693
Fed up with US support for people and groups working to violently overthrow it, the Morales government declared US ambassador Philip Goldberg persona non grata on September 10, 2008, and expelled him. USAID’s lack of transparency regarding whom it was funding in Bolivia had contributed to the breakdown in relations; Bolivian officials had repeatedly requested the information, to no avail. Cables from 2007 describe the anger of the minister of the presidency, Juan Ramón Quintana, at the secretive nature of USAID’s programs [07LAPAZ2387]. US researchers also sought the release of USAID and related documents; by the time of the September 2008 events, three-and-a-half-year-old Freedom of Information Act requests remained unanswered. The US continued to send hundreds of millions of dollars to unnamed recipients in Bolivia via USAID after 2009.[33] Ultimately, in 2013, Bolivia expelled USAID as well.


[23] See Richard Lapper and Hal Weitzman, “Morales Poised for Win in Bolivia,” Financial Times, December 19, 2005.
[24] US Department of State, “Bolivia (06/05)” (background note), June 2005, at state.gov.
[25] See Mark Weisbrot, “Bolivia’s Economy: The First Year,” Center for Economic and Policy Research, January 2007, at cepr.net.
[26] See also [08LAPAZ1426].
[27] Mark Weisbrot and Luis Sandoval, “The Distribution of Bolivia’s Most Important Natural Resources and the Autonomy Conflicts,” Center for Economic and Policy Research, July 2008, at cepr.net.
[28] USAID, “USAID/OTI Bolivia Field Report Jan.–Mar. 2007,” archived at web.archive.org.
[29] See, for example, Eduardo Garcia, “Foes of Morales Stage General Strike in Bolivia,” Reuters, August 19, 2008; Franz Chávez, “Bolivia: Divisions Emerge in Opposition Strategy,” Inter Press Service, September 4, 2008, at ipsnews.net; Dan Beeton, “The Fun House Mirror: Distortions and Omissions in the News on Bolivia,” NACLA Report on the Americas, May 4, 2009, at nacla.org.
[30] Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN), the ranking minority member of the Foreign Relations Committee at the time, would subsequently issue a statement acknowledging that the US had made a mistake in not condemning the violence. See Beeton, “Fun House Mirror.”
[31] See Franz Chávez, “BOLIVIA: Governor Arrested for ‘Porvenir Massacre,’” Inter Press Service, September 16, 2008, at www.ipsnews.net.
[32] See also [08LAPAZ2000], which states: “There is increasing chatter about threats to President Evo Morales. EAC will form a working group to review consequences should Morales be removed from power either by assassination or coup.”
[33] Jake Johnston, “Bolivia Expels USAID: Not Why, but Why Not Sooner,” Americas Blog (CEPR), May 1, 2013, at cepr.net.

Holy shit, thread relevant blogpost incoming.
>be me
>have sister who was an aid worker in Bolivia for six months, returned home this summer
>previously she had complained about Evo ignoring the referendum results, but never said anything to ridiculous
>knowing she didn’t like Evo too much, I ask her about the current events in Bolivia
>she proceeds to parrot almost word for word the Pentagon twitter bot phrase, literally starts by saying “there was no coup”
>point out that the OAS is not a credible organization
>doesn’t care
>point out that independent studies which revealed that the accusations of election fraud were tenuous at best
>doesn’t care
>pointed out that even if the accusations were true, Evo conceded to new elections
>doesn’t care
>tell her about the extensive history of CIA coups in Latin America, Operation Condor, previous US attempts to destabilize Evo himself in 2008, the fact that this whole thing follows the CIA regime change playbook to the letter, and that the coup leaders were literally School of the Americas graduates
>doesn’t care
>point out that even with Evo’s flaws, the new regime is composed of hard right crazies who will usher in a right wing dictatorship
>doesn’t care
>finally get fed up, locate an article from Human Rights Watch outlining violence against protestors, the army being granted immunity from prosecution, and the communications minister saying he would jail and deport “seditious” journalists
>figure that as a normie liberal she will accept this source
>she literally responds by saying “Well my friends in Bolivia tell me that none of that’s true”
Basically she has some petty booj friends in La Paz and she gets all her information from them, even when it contradicts dozens of news reports even from Western mainstream media. I almost lost it and had to resist the urge to call her friends a bunch of fascist collaborators who belong in a forced labour camp. Fortunately I was able to contain my /leftypol/ autism but holy fuck.

>>138712
Describe the holocaust to her but don't use the word "holocaust". Claim it's currently happening in Bolivia and see how much she'll defend.

>>138718
It’s not that she’s defending the actions of the current government, she just simply refuses to believe all the reports about what they’re doing. That and her entire position comes back to “Evo bad” without any regard for the broader context vis a vis imperialism or what Bolivia’s reactionaries intend to do.

>>138722
It sounds like she's already made up her mind on what to believe and is adjusting the facts accordingly. I guess if you could show her something undeniably horrendous and impossible to disbelieve you might get to her. Basically just show her the massacres.

>>138722
PROTIP Start by agreeing with her conclusion and then curiously, in a well-intentioned tone, question the premises of her belief. It sounds as if you really made her defensive.

>>137356
>>137364
>>137370
Good shit

>>138712
You need to take care of your siblings better, because this just shows that you allowed her being brainwashed into liberalism. For me to allow my sister going fash-apologist, religious nut, duped by multi-level-marketing, etc. without trying to save her would only prove my lack of love towards her. Your sister seems completely cucked to the idea that her friends are necessarily good guys and for that reason must be telling the truth. As that other anon hinted it: even gestapos had good friends.

FIRST TWEET
>"I read from some Hugo fella on Twitter. He was saying that the Bolivian police hadn't killed nobody and that the coffins were empty.
Propagandists with pockets stuffed with dollars but empty with humanity."

SECOND TWEET:
>"Some went beyond that: they said they were shooting themselves, and that, for example the police had gassed the people carrying their dead because the coffins had dinamite inside, supposedly. The senselessness has no limits."
Just some of the fake news stuff our good friends from the Latam vendepatria right wing are making up. Along with that Evo phone call thing they're trying to use to LULA him.

>I give Mr. León a period of 48 hours to present evidence against my daughter Evaliz for the infamous accusation of illicit enrichment. Otherwise, we will assume the legal defense for the dignity of my family

That's my Evo

ffs these """""people""" zero decency

>>138689
Thanks for sorting my mess bruv

https://twitter.com/Miriam_Junne/status/1198295855016611841
They just nab someone in broad daylight in front of a fucking camera while someone is reporting. This is pure intimidation.

>>138917
also no photo-editing skills

>>138712
Just disown her. You can't be family to fascists.

>I almost lost it and had to resist the urge to call her friends a bunch of fascist collaborators who belong in a forced labour camp. Fortunately I was able to contain my /leftypol/ autism but holy fuck.
Mao:
"To let things slide for the sake of peace and friendship when a person has clearly gone wrong, and refrain from principled argument because he is an old acquaintance, a fellow townsman, a schoolmate, a close friend, a loved one, an old colleague or old subordinate. Or to touch on the matter lightly instead of going into it thoroughly, so as to keep on good terms. The result is that both the organization and the individual are harmed. This is one type of liberalism."
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_03.htm

>>139541
Maos advice only really applies if you live somewhere with revolutionary potential tbh

>>139541
she will probably betray him at some point anyway

>>139541
I just lost a friend to this, literally was thinking about this piece of text and then I was like nah fuck it, I’m not going to enable reaction like this ,and just went fully autism and it’s way better. It’s cathartic and fuck reactionaries anyway. We should have good optics and all, but on the subject of imperialism and coups and such we have to be resolute. We cannot allow the porky narrative to go unchallenged

So all the liberals that were pushing for a more "nuanced position" and maintained that this wasn't a coup, etc. have now gone completely silent, haven't they?

It's really disgusting these douchebags can just cop out of this after almost everyone left of center has told them that this a right-wing coup against an elected president and still be accepted by polite society. It's like these vicious assholes that were buying into that incubator lie at the dawn of the first Iraq War or the WMD lie on the dawn of the second Iraq War got a free pass and get hugged now on the Ellen Show.

Like, forreal, liberals have just stopped reporting about this. It's like Bolivia doesn't exist anymore.

>>139680
They got what they wanted already, so don't care anymore. Just like all the liberals that were so concerned about Libya until they got what they wanted, and then never gave it a thought or word again since.

>>139755
They also changed the title from strongman to president now, if you noticed

>>139765
>>139755
also, anon, it's the same article I posted
>>138550
in case you don't notice

>>139815
Post this in OC thread.

>>139755
>that's the most sinister pic they could find of the spoopy "'dictator"'
LMAOing @ their lives

>>139680
If you are surprised, you have not been paying attention.

>>140512
fucking garbage, I hope Zizek has another stroke

>>140695
Bungled up the formatting of the red text, but who cares: a shitty opinion (Shniffman's) deserves a shitty response.
Polite sage.

>>140689
This is a pro-Morales piece dumbass. He is praising Morales for focusing on the indigenous and peasant population, while the "traditional left" in Bolvia had focused on urban workers. By doing so he was able to effect massive social change and expand rights for indigenous people and women, as well as lift them out of poverty. Morales didn't ignore the people, which is why he succeeded. And this is also exactly why the government was overthrown and replaced with a white supremacist organization. They are trying to destroy him so that his success does not inspire others.

>>139755
Thats white upper-middle class feminism for you. They will trample on any group to protect their sisters.

>>140689
Bells palsy is a viral infection of the facial nerve

Being amerimutt, i actually have indigenous ancestors. Not enough to actually count for literally anything though.
Anyways, growing up i always believed in the noble savage shit. I always heard about how Hitler promised to give the USA back to the natives if they helped him in the war. I also heard stories about moorish iberian mongrel criminals coming over and raping and pillaging upright natives for gold and booty.
My question is; how can any descendant of conquistadors possibly consider themselves "master-race" compared to natives? These christian fascists are literally rape-baby descendants of criminal mixed-race savages. What's up with that?

>>140698
What’s wrong with the Zizek article exactly? Sure he says some Anarchist tier stuff about Chavez and Castro but the piece is obviously pro-Morales and anti-coup.

>>140713
Im speaking from the viewpoint of bisonburgers.
Race is a very complicated subject, especially within native circles. People who are white passing tend to be seen as white even by white people. If you or your whole tribe is on the darker side, then you are suspected of having a lot of African ancestory. This is used a lot in tribal politics to throw doubt on the "indigenousness" of a person or tribe. Tribes that display European attributes (such as looks or culture) don't have to suffer the same scrutiny.
Many lighter skinned natives are even known to not associate with darker skinned people in their own tribe.

>>140689
>>140695
<Zizek literally calls out the coup as fundie white supremacist
Confirmed for not having read the article

>>140774
The issue is that Zizek thinks Morales is a succdem

Very few updates about On the ground in Bolivia in this thread

>>140800
do some digging then eh friend

>>140800
Latest I’ve found is partial deescelation of the situation. Coup government has agreed to new elections (no dates yet), shuffled their cabinet slightly, and repealed some repressive measures. In exchange some pro-Morales groups have agreed to dismantle barricades. It seems like a this point a best case scenario is that popular pressure from MASistas may keep the interim government in check long enough for elections, which they will hopefully win. I’m not confident in such elections being fair however.

>>140776
isn’t he, though? pink tide

So what's the situation right now? Thread's been getting quiet

>>140810
Elections are gonna be a foul compromise. Morales isn't allowed to run. The most important MAS leaders are not allowed to run. We have no information on how many MAS cadres and organisers have been rounded up or threatened. We don't know how much they've blackmailed or threatened leaders of the traditional MAS electoral base, like trade union leaders.

If the MAS is on the ballot, it will probably be an injured or reshuffled milquetoast version of the MAS. I mean, we have all seen the videos, where military police just snatches a woman out of crowd for no reason at all while a camera is on.

Again, Morales has literally done nothing wrong from even a liberal perspective, and yet is barred from running and his party is under massive attack by the security forces. Any agreement to an election is a concession nobody in a united front from SocDem to Communist should be willing to accept under these conditions. Not an inch to these criminals. Evo or bust.

>>140776
he literally is

Bolivia: Police Demand to be Paid for Their Support for Coup

Bolivia's former President Evo Morales on Monday revealed an official document in which the commander of the police requires Jeanine Añez administration to meet the wage increase commitments that would have been acquired at the time of the police mutiny on November 8, an action which facilitated the consolidation of the coup d'etat.

The leaked document, which is a copy of an official note sent by Colonel Rodolfo Montero to the Interior Minister Arturo Murillo on November 25, refers to the “wage leveling proposal for police officers” who aspire to have their salaries and benefits equated to those that the military are entitled to.

Besides having the official police seal, the letter is clearly signed by the officer who led the mutiny hours before President Morales was forced to resign.​​​​​​

This information similar to the data presented in a story that the Brazilian press leaked in mid-November, which is also related to the behavior of the Police and the Army during the coup.
https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Bolivia-Police-Demand-to-be-Paid-for-Their-Support-for-Coup-20191126-0001.html

Not XV century footage: it's yesterday. Not a church, it's the presidential palace in #Bolivia. In front of a cross and a female US backed dictator thanking god, a guy was named head of the "Indigenous development fund", certainly for merits: he threatens to persecute corruption

>>140913
via https://twitter.com/taseenb/status/1199520242936012800

Who gives up? No one gives up! Bolivia
Example for Mexicans and their repudiation for JohnMAckerman
Bolivian residents interrupted the evoespueblo conference and began to sing the national anthem of Bolivia
To The Streets December 1
https://twitter.com/JJDiazMachuca/status/1199522969321476101

>>140911
>cucking your country for a higher wage
Retards can't think long term

Can anyone tell me who it was in the vatican that told Evo to step down?
I saw an interview with Evo where he said they told him to leave

>>140902
>Morales has done nothing wrong
I disagree. While it may not technically be illegal because of the court’s ruling, running for an extra term in violation of term limits you set yourself and a popular referendum is a pretty bad look. At the least it can be regarded as a strategic blunder that pissed off a lot of his supporters, which is why he just barely got enough votes to win the election in October. He should have trained and endorsed a successor, which probably would have led to another sweeping MAS victory. Instead he weakened his own party by insisting on running again, but of course none of that justifies the coup.

As for the rest of your post, I think that given the level of militancy and mobilization of the MASistas the government may not have free reign to do what it wants. Sham elections are a definite possibility, but I think the balance of power is far from certain, and the outcome of the struggle far from decided. Given the concessions the government has already made to protestors I’m cautiously optimistic.

>>141115
>which is why he just barely got enough votes to win the election in October.
Just barely enough votes to win without a second round of voting. He still got more than 40% of the total vote and was 10 percentage points ahead of the candidate in the second place. (Perhaps you know this already but it's worth pointing out since a lot of people are unaware of it.)

>>141115
Morales has been completely adhering to the constraints of liberal democracy. He's free to campaign and run for offices as he wants as long as he doesn't break the law. Again, I'm looking at this from a liberal perspective. The fact that it "looks" bad is in no way a justification for a military coup, even if you're a liberal. Plus, why would he endorse a successor? He's by far the most popular politician in Bolivia. Just look at how many burger libs wish Obama got another term.

The statement that "he barely won" the last election is factually wrong. He won without a second round and with over a 10% difference to the runner up, for example the President of France has never achieved this in decades and they have a similar system. And, plus, he's offered new elections. You probably have seen this paper already but it's worth reading it:
http://cepr.net/publications/reports/bolivia-elections-2019-11

So even if you're terminally liberal there is no way to justify this and every liberal who says that this is not a coup takes off his mask.

>>141181
>The fact that it "looks" bad is in no way a justification for a military coup, even if you're a liberal.
Didn't say it was, I just said it was a strategic blunder that led to a significant drop in his popularity.
>Plus, why would he endorse a successor?
Because in not doing so he was ignoring the results of a referendum, and essentially bypassing constitutional rules that he himself wrote. Again, it may have technically been legal but it made a lot of people angry including former supporters.
>The statement that "he barely won" the last election is factually wrong. He won without a second round and with over a 10% difference to the runner up
Again, he just barely managed this. Compare that to all the other times he ran which were landslides, its obvious that his bypassing the term limits pissed a lot of people off and weakened his position. I'm not saying that Morales is bad or that the coup was justified, just that this was an easily avoidable strategic blunder that strengthened the opposition.

>>141210
>>141181
Just to illustrate my point, he got over 61% of the vote in the 2014 election, and just over 47% in the most recent one. A 14% drop in support is pretty clear evidence that many former supporters were angered by his handling of the term limits.

>>141216
>he got over 61% of the vote in the 2014 election, and just over 47% in the most recent one. A 14% drop in support is pretty clear evidence that many former supporters were angered by his handling of the term limits.
No, it actually is not evidence of that you fucking piece of shit. You would have to go ask those 14% and find out WHY they dropped support.

>>141115
KILL YOURSELF

Proud coup supporter in Bolivia.

>>141402
A Tale of Gringos in South america

>>141115
>running for an extra term in violation of term limits you set yourself and a popular referendum is a pretty bad look.
He didnt violate them because the constitutional court decided to get rid of term limits across the board.
He’s not the one who set the limits any way, it was them

>>141393
Why are you so insistent on defending Evo's circumnavigation of term limits? The referendum and its fallout was easily the biggest political event in Bolivia between the 2014 election and the most recent one, and many of Evo's own supporters voted against dropping term limits. If that wasn't the cause for such a drastic drop in support, then what was?
>>141394
Why do people think that because a leader is based and should be defended from imperialist aggression, this means that their actions and mistakes shouldn't be analyzed? People like you seem intent on not learning from history, and instead insisting that guys like Evo, as great as he may be, didn't make any errors.

>>141473
>He didnt violate them because the constitutional court decided to get rid of term limits across the board.
Only after he brought the case to them, which he did after losing a referendum. In other words Evo asked the people if they wanted to abolish the term limits, they said no, and he went ahead and had it done through the courts anyway. This is obviously a terrible idea that is going to anger a lot of people, including those who would otherwise have supported him. Endorsing a successor would have been a much better option and probably would have resulted in another 60+% of the vote going to MAS.

>>141477
A Successor isnt you you can never be certain unless your some kinda puppet leader

>>141478
It's absurd to expect a leader, as based as they may be, to rule indefinitely. Any socialist movement worthy of the name ought to be able to function without dependence on a single figure or small group. They must necessarily be an agent of the workers (and in Bolivia's case indigenous people and peasants) as a whole. If MAS was incapable of doing this for whatever reason, then that is a mistake that they need to rectify.

>>141477
This is BS, the other side planed and executed a military coup, they weren't going to observes democratic results no matter what.
Even if they had groomed an EVO2.0 to observed term-limits, it would have had the same result.

If you want to have democracy in Latin America you need to clean out the CIA puppets.

>>141482
Why do you want to impose these arbitrary hurdles on socialists polity.

>>141505
Because he's an idealist

>>141499
>This is BS, the other side planed and executed a military coup, they weren't going to observes democratic results no matter what.
True, but Evo's drop in popularity brought about by ignoring the referendum results weakened his position and made the coup easier to execute. If MAS was still polling at over 60% then they would have been much harder to unseat, and the reaction from the people would have been even bigger than we've seen. It may well have turned out more like the attempted coup in Venezuela in 2002.
>>141505
>>141506
I'm not an idealist for observing that Evo's actions compromised the strength of his party politically. I'm not advocating for term limits in the abstract. I'm just pointing out that in this particular case, Evo's determination to bypass them was a strategic error.

>>141512
The problem is that you argue not just from the viewpoint of liberal-legal technicalities (which you implicitly admit he didn't violate) but from the viewpoint of petty electoral strategy as this has ever mattered when you have some gusano military hellbent on removing you.

We can analyse this all to death but if you want to criticise Morales from the viewpoint that is to his left and that actually has substance, you wouldn't nitpick details of his campaign strategy (of which you haven't sourced evidence that they were the reason for the drop in popularity, rather it was the lower-than-average profit sharing in Potosí with the German company from which he retracted based on popular demand), but rather you'd criticise him for not building more militant grassroots action like in Venezuela and replacing the old landed gentry in the upper echelons of the military - again, just like Chavez/Maduro did.

>>141505
Socialism is when you, despite following all the laws, call Joe Biden your "good friend" so the CIA isn't breaking into your home.

>>141523
>but from the viewpoint of petty electoral strategy as this has ever mattered when you have some gusano military hellbent on removing you.
The total proportion of the population that supports you is absolutely not a trivial question in such issues. In such a situation, the people are the best bulwark against reaction, and while their level of organization and militancy may be important, so are sheer numbers. Criticism of actions which weakens support among the population by such a drastic margin can hardly be dismissed as nitpicking.
>but rather you'd criticise him for not building more militant grassroots action like in Venezuela and replacing the old landed gentry in the upper echelons of the military
The two are not mutually exclusive Anon, and it's not inherently liberal to be concerned with the overall popular support of a socialist movement. I would consider it a core strategic factor alongside organization, party line, and praxis.

>>141542
Evo Morales brought a ballot-box to gun fight, that's why he got deposed, that's why Bolivia has lost it's democracy.

>>141555
Sure, but all that means is that the mistake of scrapping the term limits is simply eclipsed by the far larger mistake of not consolidating state power more completely. I don't disagree, I was just arguing that in the context of Evo's own demsoc strategy he weakened his party unnecessarily.

>>141512
the strategic error is not arming the population and purging army and police
not this detail that frankly, nobody would care about if NATO medias werent repeating it

>>141512
He didnt ignore th referendum you anarcho baby the Supreme Court ruled that he could run again.

The OAS are US funded, they have already rigged elections in Haiti twice and other places. There were no inconsistencies, he won the election.

>>141567
>He didnt ignore th referendum you anarcho baby the Supreme Court ruled that he could run again.
He did ignore it. He got the term limits struck down despite the public voting against it. Not sure what else you would call that if not ignoring the referendum results and finding another way to get the term limits removed.
>There were no inconsistencies, he won the election.
I didn't mention the election, and I don't believe it was rigged. I was talking about the referendum specifically.

>>141578
>despite the public voting against it
it only lost by 100,000 votes. That is hardly a expression of opposition. It was like 5.5 million for and 5.6 million against

>>141589
excuse me, 2.54 to 2.68 million

>>141589
During that there was also a smear campaign, like they claimed he wouldn't pay child support for his child born out of wedlock, turned out, that child never existed.

>>141578
If you don't believe the election was rigged, then if he did or not ignore the referendum is null, because he still maintained the support of the population enough to get elected despite that, so the democratic will was still in his favour + the supreme court decision + the close vote.

It would be like the UK deciding not to brexit. Half the population would say the referendum had been ignored, the other half would not. Hard to say what is really the will of the people with a vote that is near enough a dead heat. Particularly given so many people don't vote.

Throw in the heaps of anti morales propoganda through USAID and various other organisations, you can effectively cancel out those influenced by these groups as bought off, therefore, not really a part of the democratic will.

Given the scale of US propaganda, and the closeness of the vote, we can reasonably assume without it, the vote would might have or probably would have gone in Evos favour.

>>141738
>because he still maintained the support of the population enough to get elected despite that, so the democratic will was still in his favour
That's kind of a dubious claim. Morales won the election yes (and despite the coup remains the rightful leader of the country), but only with a plurality, not a majority. In any case when I was referring to his disregard for the democratic will I was specifically talking about in regards to the referendum, not necessarily his mandate as president. Frankly just because somebody wants Evo to be president (or at least wants him more than they want the other guy) doesn't mean they wants term limits to be abolished. It's also worth noting that Evo won 47% of the vote in the election, while 49% voted to abolish term limits. In other words, a smaller proportion wanted him to be president in 2019 than wanted him to be able to run again in 2019.
>Throw in the heaps of anti morales propoganda through USAID and various other organisations, you can effectively cancel out those influenced by these groups as bought off, therefore, not really a part of the democratic will.
Come on m8, its not democracy if you just ignore people because they were taken in by the message of the other side, even if that message was fraudulent. You could use such reasoning to dismiss literally any vote that didn't go in your favour.
>Given the scale of US propaganda, and the closeness of the vote, we can reasonably assume without it, the vote would might have or probably would have gone in Evos favour.
Possibly but that's speculation. What is a decided fact is that the vote didn't go in Evo's favour, and that despite promising to respect the results he immediately set about circumnavigating them, which weakened his position and strengthened reaction.

>>141773
Except the message of the other side is anti democratic and always has been, the other side is US backed, which has the biggest history of undermining democracy of any nation ever. They are there solely to poison the debate and bend the country to their economic interests. Yes, I dismiss out of hand all influence brought about by the US and it’s interests. No there is nothing undemocratic about that. Same way there is nothing undemocratic about beating up Nazis marching in the street.

Evo Morales Rejects Interpol Notice Issued Against Him

Bolivia's exiled President Evo Morales rejected Wednesday the blue notice Interpol issued against him in the framework of the political persecution unleashed in his country after the Nov.10 coup d'etat.

Interpol's alert has been turned on for Uruguay, Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, and Mexico. This security alert is intended to "locate, identify or obtain information about a person of interest in a criminal investigation."

The Indigenous leader, in a press conference from Mexico, denounced that the new administration has not prosecuted those responsible for the 30 deaths registered in the context of the protests. However, he said, they persecute and accuse of multiple crimes the militants and followers of the Movement Towards Socialism (MAS), Morales' party.
https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/evo-morales-rejects-interpol-notification-against-him-20191127-0012.html

>>141987
just a reminder: US government spent $97 million attempting to topple Evo Morales and fund bourgeois separatists in his first seven years
https://nacla.org/news/usaids-silent-invasion-bolivia

>>141773
no you definitely have to take into account the influence of media power when judging democratic outcome, at least when the disparity is large enough so that quantity is turned into quality. And that might definitely be the case for a small country in Latin America, if the US decides to meddle vigorously.

>>141773
>its not democracy if you just ignore people because they were taken in by the message of the other side
maybe that's because most voting n democracy is a sham, retard.

>>142103
I do not have to take into account all your insignificant takes because I"m on the side of democracy, while u are on the side of a totalitarian dictator, shuch as Morales.

I represent the TRUE take on Latin-America: as it is in a vacuum; the vacuum of my idealized version of what democracy is!

inb4 ban

Is it just me or does it seem like way more people than expected are seeing the coup for what it is? I was just on Imgur and there was a pretty highly upvoted post in opposition to the coup.

>>142103
>no you definitely have to take into account the influence of media power when judging democratic outcome
Of course, but I fail to see how such a consideration in this context could lead to the conclusion that the majority of Bolivians actually did want to abolish the term limits. Recognizing the influence of bourgeois media on elections doesn't necessarily point to the conclusion that election results even in a bourgeois state can simply be disregarded. Doing so leads far to easily down a Blanquist rabbit hole. The outcomes of bourgeois elections ought still to be considered when assessing the way the public feels about an issue. The legitimacy of the referendum is also beside the point here, since it seems pretty clear that ignoring it could only have ended badly. It was a move that posed huge risk and no reward, unless you think that Evo continuing to be president was more important than his party and the people it represented to maintain control of the government.
>>142384
Haven't you got anything better to do?

>>142505
If it's not a democracy then it's not a DotP.

>>142507
got any sources by Marx to substantiate your highly irregular (to say the least) position?

>>142509
>The dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e., the organization of the vanguard of the oppressed as the ruling class for the purpose of suppressing the oppressors, cannot result merely in an expansion of democracy. Simultaneously with an immense expansion of democracy, which for the first time becomes democracy for the poor, democracy for the people, and not democracy for the money-bags, the dictatorship of the proletariat imposes a series of restrictions on the freedom of the oppressors, the exploiters, the capitalists.
t. Lenin

>>142510
Did I stutter, bitch? I asked for Marx. Lenin's take is in the context of Russia.

>>142511
Lenin wrote far more extensively on the DotP than Marx did, and actually attempted to apply it.

>>142513
>I can not reply to your question because in all honesty I have to accept that Marx was not in fact a democrat
thank you

>>142507
A DotP excludes - as the name implies - non-proletarians. And not every working class person is a proletarian, for example, self-employed owners, public and private servant classes (mostly state officials and other unproductive working people), peasants and lumpens. These people can but not necessarily have to be included in a DotP. In any case, a DotP is necessarily at odds with a liberal democracy that has universal suffrage. Henceforth, there is also the concept of a "people's democracy" as a transitional phase between liberalism and a DotP.

>>142516
Marx didn't actually write anything one way or another on what the DotP would look like in practice.

>>142510
"the recognition of Soviet power and its superiority to bourgeois parliamentary democracy"
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch04.htm

The petty-bourgeois democrats (including the Mensheviks) inevitably vacillate between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, between bourgeois democracy and the Soviet system, between reformism and revolutionism, between love for the workers and fear of the proletarian dictatorship, etc.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch08.htm

So much for Lenin being a democrat.

>>142523
>not knowing the difference between bourgeois and proletarian democracy
I suspected you were a theorylet but damn.

>>142524
It is perfectly clear from the context, you utter shit, that Lenin contrasts democracy to the revolutionary dictatorship.

>>142518
>Marx didn't actually write anything one way or another on what the DotP would look like in practice.
<I'm a booklet

"Yes, gentlemen, the Commune intended to abolish that class property which makes the labor of the many the wealth of the few. It aimed at the expropriation of the expropriators. It wanted to make individual property a truth by transforming the means of production, land, and capital, now chiefly the means of enslaving and exploiting labor, into mere instruments of free and associated labor. But this is communism, “impossible” communism! Why, those members of the ruling classes who are intelligent enough to perceive the impossibility of continuing the present system – and they are many – have become the obtrusive and full-mouthed apostles of co-operative production. If co-operative production is not to remain a sham and a snare; if it is to supersede the capitalist system; if united co-operative societies are to regulate national production upon common plan, thus taking it under their own control, and putting an end to the constant anarchy and periodical convulsions which are the fatality of capitalist production – what else, gentlemen, would it be but communism, “possible” communism?"
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/ch05.htm

"The Paris proletariat was forced into the June insurrection by the bourgeoisie. This sufficed to mark its doom. Its immediate, avowed needs did not drive it to engage in a fight for the forcible overthrow of the bourgeoisie, nor was it equal to this task. The Moniteur had to inform it officially that the time was past when the republic saw any occasion to bow and scrape to its illusions, and only its defeat convinced it of the truth that the slightest improvement in its position remains a utopia within the bourgeois republic, a utopia that becomes a crime as soon as it wants to become a reality. In place of the demands, exuberant in form but still limited and even bourgeois in content, whose concession the proletariat wanted to wring from the February Republic, there appeared the bold slogan of revolutionary struggle: Overthrow of the bourgeoisie! Dictatorship of the Working class!"
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/ch01.htm

"the proletariat, forced by the terrible material defeat of June to raise itself up again through intellectual victories and not yet enabled through the development of the remaining classes to seize the revolutionary dictatorship, had to throw itself into the arms of the doctrinaires of its emancipation, the founders of socialist sects – the revolutionary peasants, the army, and the provinces, on the other hand, ranged themselves behind the Montagne, which thus became lord and master in the revolutionary army camp and through the understanding with the socialists eliminated every antagonism in the revolutionary party."
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/ch02.htm

>>142532
"socialism is the declaration of the permanence of the revolution, the class dictatorship of the proletariat as the necessary transit point to the abolition of class distinctions generally, to the abolition of all the relations of production on which they rest, to the abolition of all the social relations that correspond to these relations of production, to the revolutionizing of all the ideas that result from these social relations. The scope of this exposition does not permit of developing the subject further."
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/

"Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat. [...] Even vulgar democracy, which sees the millennium in the democratic republic, and has no suspicion that it is precisely in this last form of state of bourgeois society that the class struggle has to be fought out to a conclusion — even it towers mountains above this kind of democratism, which keeps within the limits of what is permitted by the police and not permitted by logic."
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm

"raged all over the Continent, parliamentary cretinism, which holds those infected by it fast in an imaginary world and robs them of all sense, all memory, all understanding of the rude external world"
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/ch05.htm

BUT PLEASE, KEEP PROJECTING YOUR BOURGEOIS NOTIONS OF "DEMOCRACY" ONTO COMMUNISM!!!!!!!!!!111

>>142532
>>142533
(And don't even get me started on Engels!)

>>142533
And here's Lenin contrasting "democracy" with dictatorship:

"Before the October Revolution [a worker] did not see a single instance of the propertied, exploiting classes making any real sacrifice for him, giving up anything for his benefit. He did not see them giving him the land and liberty that had been repeatedly promised him, giving him peace, sacrificing ‘Great Power’ interests and the interests of Great Power secret treaties, sacrificing capital and profits. He saw this only after October 25, 1917, when he took it himself by force, and had to defend by force what he had taken … Naturally, for a certain time, all his attention, all his thoughts, all his spiritual strength, were concentrated on taking a breath, on unbending his back, on straightening his shoulders, on taking the blessings of life that were there for the taking, and that had always been denied him by the now overthrown exploiters. Of course, a certain amount of time is required to enable the ordinary working man not only to see for himself, not only to become convinced, but also to feel that he cannot simply ‘take’, snatch, grab things, that this leads to increased disruption, to ruin, to the return of the Kornilovs. The corresponding change in the conditions of life (and consequently in the psychology) of the ordinary working men is only just beginning. And our whole task, the task of the Communist Party (Bolsheviks), which is the class-conscious spokesman for the strivings of the exploited for emancipation, is to appreciate this change, to understand that it is necessary, to stand at the head of the exhausted people who are wearily seeking a way out and lead them along the true path, along the path of labour discipline, along the path of co-ordinating the task of arguing at mass meetings about the conditions of work with the task of unquestioningly obeying the will of the Soviet leader, of the dictator, during the work … We must learn to combine the ‘public meeting’ democracy of the working people – turbulent, surging, overflowing its banks like a spring flood – with iron discipline while at work, with unquestioning obedience to the will of a single person, the Soviet leader, while at work."
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/mar/x03.htm#sec7

Here's Lenin's answer to the democratic notion of "checks and balances":
"establish at the summit of the dictatorship a balance between different elements, a system of reciprocal control that could serve the same function – the comparison is no more than approximate – as the separation of powers in a democratic regime. An important Central Committee, raised to the rank of Party Conference, would lay down the broad lines of policy and supervise the whole Party apparatus, while itself participating in the execution of more important tasks … Part of this Central Committee, the Central Control Commission, would, in addition to its work within the Central Committee, act as a control of the Central Committee and of its various offshoots – the Political Bureau, the Secretariat, the Orgburo. The Central Control Commission … would occupy a special position with relation to the other institutions; its independence would be assured by its direct link to the Party Congress, without the mediation of the Politburo and its administrative organs or of the Central Committee."
Op.Cit. 'Lenin's Last Struggle' (Lewin, Moshe)

>>142556
If it is slander to call Morales and Maduro dictators, how slanderous is it then to label as such all movements that seek the liberation of the working class?

>>142558
This is the thing, comrade. I fucking WISH that Morales and Maduro were "dictators," heading a DotP - as the capitalist media already paints them. Out of the Latino crowd only Cuba stands out as actually 100% redpilled about the fucking situation. Everyone else, from Brazil to Venezuela is a pink-tide clown, playing "democracy" to please the eyes of Western commentators and their own spooked Christian/humanist conscience.

But let's be real. In the context of Latin America we, as communists, are forced to accept and support (critically) any dipshit who opposes imperialism that comes into power. So, yeah... Praise Morales, and the coup he allowed to take place! Color me pink! :/

>inb4 more democratic shilling

>>142564
Cuba has many niggers. In Vuvuzela a good amount of niggers. In Bolivia no niggers. Let's face it: the nigger is the revolutionary.

>>142558
>>142533
>>142532
Thanks for these sources. Upon further reflection I realize now that I was never a communist; I'm "merely" a socdem. I realize now that democracy is too much of an important notion to me to abandon it to your class-essentialist, anti-humanist structural historical-materialism.

Praise Tsipras!

The term pink tide is a misnomer
it's been a red tide from the start
>>142503
The people voted for Evo.
What are you even talking about?

>>142503
I can see the point sabocat makes, Evo has been in power for 13 years, that is a lot of time obviously. And "sometimes" he likes to do some personal cult or his enemies try to give him that title (see for example, the museum of the Revolution, or according to "someones" the Evo museum).
This is likely pointed with that shit of the referendum and the triquiñuelas that followed. Even if Evo was the Big Stuff, it was the Big Stuff for too much time. He could had nominated IDK the exguerrilla man to president and other trust people as VP. But, that reality only lives in my dreams.
<Tl;dr: Evo was in power too much time, and in a liberal democracy (or any tipe of gov.) the more time, the more it burns you. So, without a rotation sistem, the far-right got fueled by the gringos and liberals and here we are.

>>142613
Well, this will sound like AKSHUALLY but if you see other places that Venezuela or Nicaragua (the two that still resist and we can label them as socialdemocrats), the other countries followed a more soft course (this is of course after the Bolivarian dream started to crack), and finally were banished in coups, elections,etc. As the example of Uruguay lately.
13 years of Social democrat Broad Front over.

This whole the west trying to plant their shitty Democuck ideals into places is gross

>>142532
>>142533
>>142553
Did you even read your own sources fam? Nothing you posted at any point denies that the dictatorship of the proletariat is at odds with proletarian democracy through means such as soviets, syndicates, etc. They all simply denounce bourgeois parliaments in favour of the DotP, which by no means excludes proletarian democracy. If you can't see this you're either a theorylet or arguing in bad faith. Saying that the DotP means a dictatorship in the liberal sense of the term, (ie unlimited arbitrary executive power of an individual or clique), is literally an anti-communist talking point. It simply refers to a state which exercises force against class enemies of the workers (up to the point of terror), just as a bourgeois state does the same to class enemies of the bourgeoisie. Within this context, there is nothing in communist theory which precludes that a proletarian state would be a democracy of the workers and their allies (peasants, etc.) On the contrary emphasis on proletarian democracy is literally everywhere in communist theory and rhetoric, several socialist states literally put it in their names (GDR, DPRK, etc.). Unless you can find me sources denouncing the use of democratic institutions like soviets or assemblies to govern a socialist society, and instead advocating an actual oligarchic system of government, kindly fuck off.
>>142613
I'm talking about the referendum where they voted against his proposal to amend the constitution.
>>142658
Not even that. If there had been no term limits to begin with then he ought to have run as long as he could. My point is that after the referendum, going through the courts to scrap the term limits was a huge propaganda victory for the opposition. It would have been more strategically sound to simply take the loss and appoint a successor to run in 2019.

Bolivian mayor publicly beaten and humiliated by fascists:
https://www.rt.com/shows/news/474611-rtnews-november-29-12msk/
Starts @15:00, the interview is dubbed in English.

Bolivian TV operator announces RT Spanish to be taken off air
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR8uLC5mIeY
If you had any doubts about the US being behind the coup... There are several vids of US officials being completely assblasted that the Russians started a multi-language TV that counters their CNN narrative on global issues, so naturally it has to be taken off air immediately in each of their puppet states.

CrossTalk: Bolivia’s Coup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADHIQWIUdgI
Color revolution tactics, NGOs, fascism.

>>142827
You are naturally this dense, right?

Someones gotta finish off the 21st century burger sick man

>>143009
>i have no argument and i must screech