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/leftypol/ is a non-sectarian board for leftist discussion. IRC: Rizon.net #bunkerchan https://qchat.rizon.net/?channels=bunkerchan

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Leftist Hot Takes and Unpopular Opinions Anonymous 03/25/2020 (Wed) 21:24:55 No. 395988
Be nice, no bullying. (pic unrelated)
>>396089 excellent post. >Sometimes it feels like the modern Left's vision of a socialist future is the exact society we have now, an orgiastic consumption of commodities, except nobody has to work and only reads slam poetry. Is that a future worth fighting for? i remember a similar point was made in a long post on /leftytrash/ i think you'd like (unless you made it), but i didn't screencap it. i'd submit a related side note - we've stopped daring to imagine that we can change the way people behave in general. perhaps fantasies of constructing a "new soviet man" were always excessive, but we tip over into the naive - imagining that man must always have acted something like we do, ignoring the massive influence society has over us, and the duty any new society would have to bring out our best tendencies while repressing our worst. >>396933 my personal preference is to gesture at the future the 60s-70s socialist and social democratic states thought we were going to have. that can handle much more social liberalism - but it pushes us on to new heights, new duties, a new sense of purpose. to conquer space, to control the earth (stop climate change!), to master the sciences. not everyone has to do the big jobs, many people will contribute simply by doing mundane tasks that keep things ticking (has the present crisis not highlighted the value of evil the shelf-stacker?) - but we simply must get out of the pointless dead end we're currently living in. the lesson i have learned in my personal life is one i would apply to society as a whole: it is absolutely essential, beyond anything else, to set yourself a goal. even a pointless goal. you can then throw yourself at working towards it. is that a particularly coherent vision? no. but few dare to dream an alternative, so my primary option is to look backwards to stave off a collapse into total pessimism. >>397170 it's not about preventing it, necessarily. the thing is we shouldn't encourage it. someone wasting their time (their short period on earth, my god!) under socialism ought to be an aberration, a tragedy, not the idealized end state. i suppose in my own personal philosophy, the core of a man is his creative endeavors. everyone should be set free to that end, in the broadest sense possible. art, literature, film, sports (even the odd ones like car racing!), people should be set upon serious endeavors and challenges. we should foster a spirit like that, the development and nurturing of talents.
>>397466 Can i ask what do you do for a living?
>>397466 >hating the rich is good, even if they're still proletarian. You people are a joke.
>>397511 data entry, paid below the national average. >>397513 the culture of the upper middle class and beyond is the most alienating thing i have ever encountered.
>>397517 So you don't actually hate rich people, you hate their culture , who you know that not all rich people share you are not retarded, you just sound angry about your job
>>397561 lol fuck the rich
>>397561 Socialism/communism are not niche ideologies. They haven't been ignorant to their existence; they're avoiding it, pursuing capitalist greed fully knowing about the destructive behaviour they enact. FUCK THE RICH
>>397561 their culture and their income have a correlation nearing 1. not having a serious income constraint naturally breeds a similar culture everywhere. it's not like i've said they need to be punished under socialism, just that it should be acceptable to hate them in leftist groups.
china isn't, and will never be socialist if they keep following the same path they are right now. Dengiods and Xi shills are just edgy liberals who hate the west just for the sake of hating it.
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>>397592 i think most leftist despise the rich in leftist circles ,stop acting edgy we al know that when you get a better position and make some money you will turn in to the archetypical boomer
>>397598 >stop acting edgy there's nothing edgy about not liking some people
>>397598 >ponies
>>397598 Wealthy hooves typed this post
if a politician ever suggests "guaranteed jobs", increase in the minimum wage, an increase in "unemployment insurance", and/or "means tested UBI", rather than UBI, i hope they get an aggressive form of cancer. 90% of human jobs are a complete waste of time and people identify with their abusers rather than admit they wasted their life doing pointless shit. if you try to create a guaranteed jobs program i hope you die excruciatingly. as if i want to give my support to someone who will in return give me a guaranteed torture program.
>>397619 how can you have both "guaranteed jobs" and "unemployment insurance"
>>397466 >hating the rich is good, even if they're still proletarian. You mean like engineers or doctors? Are you dumb? You know they will still exist and quite possibly still earn more and have a higher status than the average prole under socialism, right?
>>397721 They will still exist, but we will try to limit their higher status and earning more under socialism. Income disparities breeds resentment.
>>397721 >implying the only rich proles are doctors and engineers >implying many engineers aren't doing useless or actively harmful work like for arms manufacturers
>>397619 Hard disagree plus anti-work is cringe and bluepilled. Regardless of what you think about jobs, a guaranteed jobs programme would take millions out of lumpenism and have a positive effect on class consciousness and worker organization. It would be particularly grand if coupled with punitive measures against Uber and the like. UBI on the other hand would be another nail in the coffin of class consciousness.
>>397619 >90% of human jobs are a complete waste of time like what? First thing that comes to mind is advertisement and graphic design for corporations
>>397744 Don't many proles also work in arms manufacturing? Why are we villifying engineers now? are you a liberal-arts-fag?
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>>397604 There is literally nothing wrong with being a massive faggot. >>397751 UBI and M4A would permit people to go on strike and know that they've got grocery money. People could quit their jobs more easily or remain unemployed for longer as they fished for a place worth working at. It would substantially tilt the balance of power in favor of those selling their labor. Repealing UBI would also be nearly impossible, which is even now, with a clear emergency situation that has a clear and imminent end the State Guardians of Capital are afraid to institute it. >take millions out of lumpenism Workerism is idpol.
>>397774 >Why are we villifying engineers now? we aren't. you're projecting.
>>397739 Dude, people dont resent each other because they earn more. I am completely fine with doctors earning more than me because they do a lot of work and have major contributions to society (like saving our lives), same thing with engineers. I have a problem with people making money by exploiting others. I'll always prefer a rich doctor who only makes money of his labor than a poor petite bourgoise owner who exploit his staffs surplus value. >>397794 not addressing the first sentence though, your argument is still garbage.
>>397786 >Workerism is idpol. <class analysis is idpol The real hot take right here
>>397807 >workerism is class analysis That's just wrong.
>>397870 Class analysis must account for the chronically unemployed and the Uberized precariat as being fundamentally different from the traditional proletariat, or it is incomplete. "Everyone who isn't a top-hatted capitalist is a prole!" is a nice idealistic canard to make NEETs fell good, but it ignores real relations to the means of production.
>>397807 Workerism is not the same as class analysis. Workerism is when you use the group worker and its perceived markers as an identity group.
>>397804 People are absolutely resenting other people who have more material goods and higher status than them. A successful socialist society will have to try to minimize the difference between groups of people otherwise that resentment will fester.
>>397895 no you dingus, thats not what socialism is for. Marx literally said that equality is pretty shitty, because it always means inequality in another metric. Very simplistic example: Bob and Kenny earn the same amount of money in the same job under similar conditions (equality), but Bob works 10 hours a day while Kenny works 2 hours a day, so Kenny has a higher per hour wage (definitely inequality). Bob should definitely earn more money than Kenny in that Case, and if "resentment festers" in Kenny, then well, fuck kenny, hes a lazy piece of shit. Socialism is about getting rid of class, which is how you relate to the means of production, not about making a doctor as equal as possible to someone who jerks off all day.
>>397189 >DSA The DSA is mired in delusional electoralism. Their "community outreach" doesn't generally extend further than canvassing for Bernie. Some local chapters might do more, but the DSA as a whole is moronic.
>>397966 I'm aware of what socialism is and isn't. I'm just arguing against societal inequality because it creates a lot of problems. There is nothing in Marx that says that a doctor or an engineer should earn a lot more than a janitor and I think you are aware of that.
>>398004 I would imagine that in a society where education at all levels is allot more equitable and society pays your way through higher education, that becoming a doctor would be allot easier and as a result, wouldn't require such a high paycheck. The reason why doctors and engineers get paid allot under capitalism is because of their scarcity. Under socialism you can and considerably increase your theoretical supply through elimination of class based barriers to educational attainment. A good example is an argument against socialism i saw from a liberal, that if you pay taxi drivers the same as doctors, no-one will want to be a doctor: Ask yourself this: what would you prefer? To spend your 20s in University learning to become a doctor, or to spend your 20s as a taxi driver doing a relatively boring, menial job. I would argue that a socialist society would have to reduce the wages for doctors, or they would end up with a large oversupply.
>>397492 >everyone should be set free to that end, in the broadest sense possible. art, literature, film, sports (even the odd ones like car racing!), people should be set upon serious endeavors and challenges. we should foster a spirit like that, the development and nurturing of talents. Good reply, don't disagree with it at all. What I do want to clarify, because it seemed like >>396089 wants to curate culture so that people can act accordingly- is that there is no need to. Human Nature already is wanting to discover, contribute to the world, and explore your creativity and take on those endeavors. Even under our capitalist system I was able to realize for myself what goals I want to accomplish in my lifetime outside of trying to survive this capitalist society. If it seems like people are too eager to lead hedonistic lives and indulge in whatever you consider "wastes of time", I'd say it's because they've simply been living too long with the weight of surviving on their shoulders and need some indulgence in order to discover their own personal purpose, how they want to give back to society.
>>398115 This has always been my opinion too. Most people don't want to do menial work if they can avoid it.
The socialist state once established, should unironically agree on one particular school of thought on any subject and then use violence to destroy followers and advocates of contrary ideas.
>>395988 Perchance an alternative theory that no-one cares for You can change the system from within; It 's actually incredibly difficult not the rewards are immense. Otherwise all these pricks wouldn't be rigging it to send their mates, themselves and their kids to become the next batch running "the system." >In b4 but NOOOOOOO you will become like them and sell-out You have to Corona-the systems often based on class, connections and inter-personal networking with enough good people.
>>395995 RISE OF THE IDIOTS
>>395988 Many use leftist discourse and intellectualism for getting better standards of higher level sexytime-partners
>>396038 BUDDHA
>>396089 You are SDP UK Good
>>398993 Bit rude to call him a retarded wrecker.
>social democracy is socialism, but that is the problem <fascism has the same function as social democracy >capitalism is not in it's terminal stage <communism is neither inevitable, nor is the chance that it the chance that it will ever be archived rising >people don't protest because of ideologies, but for immediate, material reasons. ie. nobody cares about the ussr, catalonia, the Paris commune, etc. <instead of fascism, neoliberal capitalism reverts to passive-authoritarianism ala Putin, Orban, Erdogan, Xi, ... to deal with crises. >fascism would have handled climate-change better than we currently do (as such Trump is anti-fascist) <the rise of ml/mlm-teens is exclusively bad >jazz is ok
>>400875 >social democracy is socialism, but that is the problem Meh take. SocDems are bad, but they aren't socialist by definition. They're capitalist with some selective social welfare funded through imperialism and exploitation. They're social fascists. >fascism has the same function as social democracy Good take, depending on what you mean by "function". See above. >capitalism is not in it's terminal stage I feel like this is believed by most people who aren't insufferable idealists and/or anarchists >communism is neither inevitable, nor is the chance that it the chance that it will ever be archived rising Agree with the first part, the second part remains to be seen. >people don't protest because of ideologies, but for immediate, material reasons. Pretty much universally accepted by anyone who's read theory. >instead of fascism, neoliberal capitalism reverts to passive-authoritarianism Would you not consider Putin, Orban, and Erdogan to be fascists? They're passive-authoritarian for sure, but that's not mutually exclusive from fascism. >fascism would have handled climate-change better than we currently do Seeing as the current world order leans toward fascism, I tend to disagree. Not to mention a further fascist government, like that of the Nazis, would have simply seen eradication of people as the solution to climate change and the resultant supply shortages. See ecofascism. >as such Trump is anti-fascist BAD TAKE Trump is, at the very least, enabling fascism just as much as any other American president, if not moreso. To call him an anti-fascist is lunacy. >the rise of ml/mlm-teens is exclusively bad While they can be annoying, I strongly disagree. They are what we were at their age: annoying little squirts with no real understanding of dialectical materialism or how to actually engage with people. Give them time, a nurturing environment, and the means to act, and they will become steadfast allies. We can't let some inter-generational squabbling segregate us, because they have the passion and numbers necessary to move us forward and we cannot afford to pass that up. >jazz is ok good take.
The sixth mass extinction is a good thing because it will force us into managing 100% of our resources directly or die trying.
>>396407 ABSOLUTELY BASED TAKE.
>>398895 This. Kill anyone who isn't a Strasserist.
>>403660 lol Strasser and his lads all liked to die instantly. "Strasserism" is shit where you get cucked by the other Nazis.

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