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OPEN UP IT'S STASI Anonymous 01/11/2020 (Sat) 17:01:42 No. 208689
I was talking with my friend who's family is from the USSR and we started talking about the East German secret police, or 'Stasi' as they are commonly known. He's a left-lib so he was making the argument that he'd rather in a libertarian capitalist society than an authoritarian communist one. I did try explaining to him that modern surveillance under capitalism is obviously more advanced than the Stasi ever could be and that will stamp you even faster any totalitarian regime if you challenge their power substantially. Are there any first-hand sources regarding them and their actions? Were they as bad as they are thought to be?
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>>208705 Or you can explain to them even the marxist retards that criticized the USSR still ceded that it was better than its capitalist counter parts like Orwell and how he said they had manufactured consent to rule. Seriously ask them if capitalism Is freedom then why don't people own the places they work? Or why competition in markets leads to the erosion of choice except in models where there is perfect competition which is virtually non existent.
>>208689 I am woefully ignorant on this issue and would like some sources as well. Personally, I vaguely justify many of the excesses like secret police, Stalinist purges, Mao's mistakes, etc. as coming from the simple fact that these powers were underdogs, opposed by the whole world and besieged on all sides. These were desperate measures. It doesn't excuse them in the least but it explains why they happened. Needless to say, this isn't the kind of line one can take when trying to "defend" past regimes against radlib criticism. If people press me on this I usually just admit that it was horrible and embarrassing, then proceed to drop the incredibly good QOL statistics these regimes managed to produce despite their challenges and mistakes. Also how did he respond to your point about surveillance capitalism? How does this not stop him dead in his tracks... here in burgerstan NSA passively collects ALL communication metadata AND content, while every single click and keystroke of every internet user is recorded by private corporations and resold for advertisement and political analysis and influencing. Any US citizen can be labelled "terrorist" by the government and detained indefinitely without trial (thanks obama!) so legally speaking we are all ripe for disappearing in the night like the libs imagine Stasi did to East germans. I live in NYC and there is an ongoing controversy surrounding the MTA (city metro) raising their fares citing rising costs, only to turn around and spend 2 million dollars stationing NYPD cops in full battle regalia at the most busy stations in order to supposedly combat fare evasion. No, not for terrorists. The cops with assault rifles and kevlar are here to intimidate the citizens of NY into paying the fare Is this not authoritarian enough for a liberal PMC faggot? If it hasn't happened in his city it's only a matter of time.
West German secret police was worse but no one even knows their name lmao
>>208711 >What the fuck does your friend know about the Stasi? He didnt live there and neither did his family. (OP) In my experience most people seem to know the Stasi from cold-war ant-USSR propaganda, not from direct experience. Other than that, totally agree, DDR 2 please.
>>208711 Stasi wasn't nearly as repressive as police forces of Latin American military juntas or anything. They never violated the law. Only 2% of their entire staff was involved with the infamous wire-tapping you see in movies like The Life of Others - which was directed and produced by a literal German nobleman. Didn't surprise me burger audiences loved that movie. Also, during the "peaceful revolution" they did not shot at the people, did not interfere with the violent breaking down of the border, etc. because they actually thought of themselves as servants of the people. Also I've never read of Stasi officers breaking in doors, shooting unarmed men, arrest you for smoking weed, break your arm, etc. - burger cops all do that.
I'm extremely uninformed about history. In my experience, how it usually goes with shit like this is that it wasn't nearly as bad as Americans and American media portray it, but a lot of shit sucked massive balls. Many times, actions were "justified" because of various reasons, but put in practice, stuff like ignorance, power struggles, paranoia, and just human ineptitude gave a lot of ground for corruption and terrible shit to go down. Not surprisingly, little comparison is made to current times third world countries, because people live like shit and communism is unambigously better for the majority of it's civilians. Muh jeans, muh jazz. Doesn't even fucking matter if you have stores that sell jeans if you work 2 jobs, get mugged every other week, and you personally knew people that were murdered on the streets. Even the third world is absolute shit, it's just not visible. Reminder that communism has worked pretty fucking well, despite the myriad of problems it had.
>>208728 *Even the first world is absolute shit
>>208714 >These were desperate measures. It doesn't excuse them in the least but it explains why they happened. (OP) That's my belief currently based on my knowledge of all the subjected you noted. >how did he respond to your point about surveillance capitalism? How does this not stop him dead in his tracks... He didn't relent in calling the DDR 'authoritarian' (suggesting our neoliberal hellhole is not). and he said quote: >"NSA is useful, would be nice if they didn't spy on literally everyone tho" >"But they can so they will" I got a sense of capitalist realism from him in that. Personally, I see liberals as being the first stage of political consciousness (further left than conservatives) since I, and almost everyone in western capitalist societies, is or was at some point before turning the straight facts of Marx and co. Hopefully I can breadpill him over time, you can't radicalize someone over night.
>>208724 (OP) It's funny you mention that, said friend brought up that film during our convo. and recommended it to me.
>>208717 >East Germans living in the West were staggered by the flood of complicated forms they had to fill out for taxes, health insurance, life insurance, unemployment compensation, job retraining, rent subsidies, and bank accounts. Furthermore, "because of the kind of personal information they had to give, they felt more observed and spied on than they were by the Stasi [the GDR security police]" (Z Magazine, 7/92). http://bookzz.org/book/981420/378c5d
>>208724 >Only 2% of their entire staff was involved with the infamous wire-tapping you see in movies like The Life of Others Do you have any sources for than so I can refute his claim that they supposedly killed '1.5 gazillion people' and such?
>>208735 Yeah, it's shown regularly here in Germany. It's a comical portrayal of the GDR. Basically, it shows the GDR as a super duper gray and oppressive shithole where everyone is depressed and the "true human spirit" can only live in small spaces like secret creative writer circles - in the apartment of the writer that is investigated everything is colorful, homely, and they have debates and drink wine, while everybody else lives in a grey commieblock. This is the petit-bourgeois "resistance" to the "totalitarian" regime of the GDR, or at least how West German liberals imagined it. The main protagonist is a Stasi officer who is a bit on the autistic site of the spectrum, he can only follow orders, is unable of independent thought and then gets "converted" into a liberal by listening to the conversations of the author and his lovely wife who have such great spirits. At some point there is a montage where the officer goes home, to his gray commie block, the streets are empty, and once he's home he has a fat prostitute riding him in what looks like a thoroughly unpleasant sex scene. Later he finds out that the only reason he has to investigate the author is because a higher-up functionary, who is portrayed like porky (expensive car, fat as fuck, disgusting, rapey, smokes cigars) wants to fuck the wife, so he wants something incriminating against the author. It's grotesque and a caricature of a movie, and it's hilarious seeing West Germans believing this is how the GDR was like.
>>208746 Do you have any good docs, books, etc. Which show what life was like in the GDR more accurately?
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>>208746 Glad I never watched. Even on this board people will defend making and spreading sit like that because of "free artistic expression".
Triumph of Evil, Austin Murphy
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>>208755 >john green
>>208740 Sure. https://www.mfs-insider.de/Grunddaten/Struktver1.htm Scroll down to the point Einsatz operative Technik - this is the application of wiretappings, buggings, etc. As you can see, it only employed 1000 personnel, and the Stasi had 68.000 personnel. That's 1,5%. Consider that usually you need multiple guys to wiretap an apartment or a phone, it's logistically impossible that the Stasi has ever spied on more than 300 people at the same time. I'd definitely say the West German intelligence - there is four of them - was wayyyyy more intense. West Germany has the Verfassungsschutz which is dubious organization spying on everything left-wing and employing Nazis terrorists (Google "NSU Affäre"), there is the BND which has no legal founding document and originated from a Nazi resistance org recruited by the Americans to fight commies ("Gruppe Gehlen"), there is the MAD, the military intelligence and BKA which is the German version of the FBI. Anybody who tells me these guys didn't spy more on the West German people than the Stasi did in the East is a fucking idiot.
>>208757 Is there an epub?
>>208758 Not the youtube cuck. Apparently this one is a 90 year old British illustrator of children’s books.
>>208749 There used to be some handbook from the GDR's foreign publishing house where they introduced themselves. It has a lot of pictures and basic information. Ismail once uploaded it I think but I don't have it right now.
>>208749 >>208778 Found it, there are two of them. This one is from 1966 during the Ulbricht era https://archive.org/details/meetgdr00liga This is from 1986 during the Honecker era https://archive.org/details/GDR1986
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>>208755 >>208757 >>208761 >>208783 >>208790 (OP) Thanks for all the great resources posted already guys!
Ex-socialist country here. Every victim_of_communism type person I meet use the now hegemonic consensus (communism=devil) that their relatives were unjustly sentenced, which makes me wonder: was crime completely nonexistent under communist rule? Cuz every victim is an innocent human rights warrior in retrospect.
>>208853 The communist states were criminal.
>>208853 Of course crime existed but the economic incentive to commit them was largely abolished. I believe the GDR had 17 policemen per 1000 people and the FRG (West Germany) had 70 per 1000 people. Also, what do you think of these reddit types from Eastern Europe that dominate subs like r/Europe and r/AskEurope? It seems like every Baltic/Polish/Hungarian/Romanian/Ukrainian/Bulgarian etc. flag is super anti-communist to the point where they'll claim nothing, not a single good thing, existed during the socialist era. It really seems strange because if you look at the polls they are definitely in the minority when it comes the opinion about socialism. Its also always the same shtick: >you young Western commies are just too idealistic, I lived under communism, it was hell <here look at this poll in your country >ahahaha yes that's just a bunch of old geezers that are nostalgic for the old times
>>208870 Reddit is liberal PMC central.
>>208870 Reddit being basically just an american site selects for these kinds of people. Additionally, being able to speak english fluently and being on english language forums as a non native speaker tends to select for bourgie people out of a foreign population.
>>208689 The Stasi did do some bad stuff, no doubt about it. However, considering this >The German government evidently places more significance on dealing with the GDR than with the fascist period of German history. The central office in Fudwigsburg for the investigation of crimes committed by the Nazi regime had, at the height of its activity, five full-time employees. In comparison, the statutory authority examining the Stasi files has more than 3,000 employees and by 1998 had already cost German taxpayers around 1.39 billion Deutsch Marks. And, significantly, despite a long and avid search by the present German authorities, tasked with analysing and taking out criminal proceedings against former Stasi officials for wrongdoing, only a tiny number have been convicted of any crime. Concrete evidence of serious mistreatment of individuals by the Stasi has been minimal >Since unification, over 75,000 investigations were undertaken by the German Public Prosecutor against 100,000 suspects but the number of suspects fell dramatically during the investigative process. In the end, only 1.4 per cent of those under investigation were actually put on trial (1,021). Most of those found guilty of a crime were given fines. Klaus Marxen, Gerhard Werle, Petra Schäfter. Die Strafregelung von DDR-Unrecht Fakten und Zahlen ( Berlin: Stiftung der Aufarbeitung der SED-Diktatur Humboldt University, 2007) If the Stasi were really as evil as so many people say, then why after the fall of the wall almost none of them got charged with any crimes, and those that did only got fines? It is not as if Germany "went easy" on them, they spend a lot of man-hours and over a billion Marks in order to prosecute the Stasi.
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(OP) I made an image version for if anyone needs something like this in the future.
>>208753 The problem with censoring such fiction is that it doesn't solve the problem of the mind from which it was wrought.
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(OC) Here's a good quote from the book anon mentioned >'Stasi State or Socialist Paradise?'
>>208891 >If the Stasi were really as evil as so many people say, then why after the fall of the wall almost none of them got charged with any crimes, and those that did only got fines? It is not as if Germany "went easy" on them, they spend a lot of man-hours and over a billion Marks in order to prosecute the Stasi. When you ask a German conservative or liberal (right-wing liberal, not in the American sense) they'll come up with some conspiracy theory how GDR elites secretly undermined the reunification process and the aftermath. Which is actually the opposite of what happened. The GDR intelligentsia was ruthlessly replaced by Western conservatives. I recently talked to someone who was going to school in 1991, suddenly most of her teachers were fired and the new teacher said: "Everything you've learned so far is wrong." Which upset the class cause they liked their old teachers.
>>208922 Especially when this stuff won an Oscar. This is the shitty thing about cultural hegemony, even if you have the facts on your side everyone around you is subconsciously exposed to such material even when it comes in harmless forms like a Hollywood movie that appears apolitical on the surface and may even be made by people who didn't want to push an agenda but subconsciously reproduces hegemony. This is why the USSR gone is such a loss, because it was a the only entity that could push back against cultural hegemony. Everybody revers Tarkowski and Shostakovitch.
>>208939 >Which is actually the opposite of what happened. The GDR intelligentsia was ruthlessly replaced by Western conservatives. I recently talked to someone who was going to school in 1991, suddenly most of her teachers were fired and the new teacher said: "Everything you've learned so far is wrong." Which upset the class cause they liked their old teachers. This fucking sucks. More info on that?
>>208870 Most people in post-Soviet countries don't know much English and do not use western websites (with the exception of youtube of course). If you see someone from Russia or CIS posting on Reddit using fluent English, they're very likely to be an urbanite petit-bourg liberast who worships America for giving us iPhones. Poles are just a degenerate race of brainwashed reactionaries though.
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>>208971 Woah-ho. What was that at the end?
>>208972 the baltic "people" too
>>208975 Okay, Yezhov.
>>208972 You heard me. Poland is the most reactionary and anticommunist nation this side of the US. If poles weren't so petty bourgeois and the Battle of Vistula didn't happen, we'd have Red Europe by the 1930s. Fuck em
>>208980 Well, yeah. They're not a race, though.
>>208980 Let's make a Poland hate thread if one doesn't already exist.
>>208755 Anything better? I found it lacking in sources for many claims last I read it. Did not give the most authoritative impression.
>>208711 >Litterally the only reason that the DDR fell was because the Stasi was... let's not dive into the idealistic view of "it was x and y that caused z" please. the DDR was suffering from many economic problems, and dissatisfaction towards the stasi - they were excessive, egon krenz even admits so - and their failure in protecting the party only accelerated the process. >and government endorsement on victimless amateur porn and 2d porn silly becuase you're viewing a state from conservative times (which was actually quite socially liberal - they had state-run nightclubs and legal homosex) and assuming that's the default. DDR II, if it ever happens, is going to be a lot different - not just "recreate the exact state and mindsets from the 70s but with legal hentai and camshows"
>>209308 > the DDR was suffering from many economic problems, The DDR did not have "many" economic problems. It had a few but nothing threatening. Financially the DDR was in 1989 actually more sound than the BRD, it had 3 times less public and private debt than the NATO sector. >and dissatisfaction towards the stasi Only green shitlib students, the church and so on cared about the MfS. Generally, there was no dissatisfaction with the Stasi in 1989, this is made up NATO/CIA/BND propaganda. There was dissatifaction with the old guys in the SED though who were kinda seen as extremely conservative old tards disconnected from the average worker/citizen, dictating everything from above, often times ignoring the opinion of engineers, workers, scientists etc. - which was all true to a certain extend. The personality cult around Honecker and others and excessive political propaganda was also perceived as rather annoying. The main thing that caused dissatisfaction with the SED was that damn wall though, it prevented average citizens from travelling to relatives in the NATO sector and from travelling around the world freely. Yes, the wall prevented World War 3 from igniting within Europe when it was built, however in the long run it killed the DDR. In 1989 even the SED big heads were fed up with it, but then they opened it far too quickly. What's more, Mielke actually proved to be a softie against shitlibs and NATO invaders. He didn't want to "shoot at our people" (quote), but western bourgeois media still paints him as extremely hawkish who went against his own people. It's not true. I think this is mainly due to BND/CIA officers still being butthurt about him and Markus Wolff planting spies inside the NATO headquarters and highest level of BRD govt, while western secret services never managed to put moles inside the DDR's critical administration and military.
bump to save later to copy sources
>>208724 >The Life of Others - which was directed and produced by a literal German nobleman >>208735 >friend brought up that film during our convo. and recommended it to me That reminds me. For anybody here who can read German, read this: Warum ich meinen Namen aus "Das Leben der Anderen" löschen ließ https://www.sueddeutsche.de/kultur/donnersmarck-hein-das-leben-der-anderen-1.4300244 For anybody else, here's my shitty tl;dr lacking the style and wit of the German original: Christoph Hein, author and victim of Stasi spying, gets asked by some moviemaker guy what that experience was like. Four hours of talking in a restaurant, movie guy is very thankful. A couple years later the author gets invited to the first screening of "The Life of Others". Right at the beginning of the movie his name gets displayed. He doesn't like the movie, he writes the GDR in the movie is a spooky place like from a tale by Tolkien. He says paranoia in the GDR was big in the 60s, but the movie is set in the late 80s. He orders his name to be removed. Movie man is butthurt and later claims he was akshully strongly inspired by another dissident, the musician Wolf Biermann. Author guy points out how implausible that is, given that Biermann's exile from the GDR already happened in the 1970s. Ten years after the movie some professor of German literature tells author guy the following anecdote: He talks with his students about the author's anti-censorship speech. The students asked how many years in prison he got for that. None. So the speech was held after re-unification? No, in 1987. We know that can't be true! We saw "The Lives of Others"!!
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