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Anonymous 11/22/2020 (Sun) 01:44:05 No. 1159176
Is left wing nationalism good or bad and why?
>>1160270 >Patriotism is merely love for a land and it people. It never is. Every single nationalist I've talked to despises at least half their countrymen. And what the ACTUAL FUCK is there to love about a piece of fucking land? Why does this specific piece of land deserve such a strong emotion as "love"? Stop lying to yourself, you sad sack of shit.
>>1160275 >Every single nationalist Patriotism is not nationalism.
>>1160276 Yes it is.
>>1160275 >what the ACTUAL FUCK is there to love about a piece of fucking land? Mao did nothing wrong when he sent the students out to the countryside
>>1160274 Nationalism leads imperialistic attitudes, class division, and lack of action against corrupt government.
>>1160277 No, it isn't.
>>1160285 Ok, explain the difference. Nationalists will define their shit the exact same way you just did. >>1160283 ?
>>1160286 >By 'patriotism' I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality
>>1160286 And even then, it does not necessarily mean to believe "best in the world".
Another definition >Patriotism or national pride is the feeling of love, devotion, and sense of attachment to a homeland and alliance with other citizens who share the same sentiment. This attachment can be a combination of many different feelings relating to one's own homeland, including ethnic, cultural, political or historical aspects.
>>1160288 Of course. Patriotism is when you're a good boy nationalists who would never do no bad things, and nationalism is when you're a bad boy, who just wants to grrrrrrr all the time.
>>1160292 Here's another https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patriotism >love for or devotion to one's country
>>1160292 Very oversimplified definition. >identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.
>>1160292 Another one >Nationalism is a way of thinking that says that some groups of humans, such as ethnic groups, should be free to rule themselves. ... The other definition of nationalism is the 'identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.
>>1160297 >>1160299 >>1160291 So they are the same, except nationalists are mean. But you're not mean, so you're not a nationalist, you're a patriot.
>>1160304 Throwing 5 different definitions at me to muddle the meaning even more. Fucking pathetic.
>>1160305 >So they are the same, except nationalists are mean. But you're not mean, so you're not a nationalist, you're a patriot. Very oversimplified definition to the point of losing meaning. >>1160306 The last two are for nationalism, to clear up confusion.
>>1160306 Definitions were muddy from the beginning, just as is common with the spooks
>>1160311 It already was meaningless. Nationalists will define nationalism as patriotism is defined. Patriotism is the socially acceptable word to use.
>>1160327 Incorrect. You refuse to see the difference, and will allow the fascists to co-op such a powerful word. Patriotism, like I said, is merely the love of a country and it's people. If you support corrupt government in said country, you don't truly love it. Nations is undying loyalty to the country and it's state. No matter what happens, a nationalist will support it's actions. A nationalist will also see all other places as inferior, and seek to dominate them entirely, much to their detriment.
>>1160284 The USSR and every socialist state inherently promotes individual groups to live in their own nations within the greater socialist state, all your beliefs are literally meme-tier hippie bullshit from burgerstan.
>>1160340 >The USSR and every socialist state There was never a socialist state. That is a capitalist myth to paint us a failures. >individual groups to live in their own nations within the greater socialist state, This creates unecessary division, which is dumb.
>>1160335 >Patriotism, like I said, is merely the love of a country and it's people Which is fucking retarded in the first place, but again, this is EXACTLY what nationalists define nationalism as. >No matter what happens, a nationalist will support it's actions. Absolutely not. Nationalists all over the world are screeching about their Illuminati communist governments. >A nationalist will also see all other places as inferior, and seek to dominate them entirely, much to their detriment. That's not what a nationalist will tell you. It may well be true, but it's also true for people who define themselves as patriots. >>1160340 People could move freely within the USSR, retard.
>>1160340 Patriotism itself however, is neutral on the issue. It doesn't advocate for this at all.
>>1160346 >Which is fucking retarded in the first place I guess you wouldn't mind seeing your fellow country men and women being slaughtered and your cities burned then. >Nationalists all over the world are screeching about their Illuminati communist governments. They aren't nationalist or Patriotic then. >That's not what a nationalist will tell you. Then we aren't talking about a nationalist then.
Nationalism is inseparable from needing a foreign enemy. In the case of Vietnam or Cuba this made perfect sense because of imperialists fucking with their shit. So what do so-called left nationalists in the heart of the American Empire want? Are you going to take up the mantle of killing immigrants or pushing for war with China?
>>1160353 >I guess you wouldn't mind seeing your fellow country men and women being slaughtered and your cities burned then. ?? >They aren't nationalist or Patriotic then. Wew. >Then we aren't talking about a nationalist then. wew.
Can we all just agree that self-identified nationalists and patriots are cringe but their actions should undermine the concept of nationalism and patriotism?
>>1160141 >muh symbols and culture, art and traditions >>1160353 >muh Völk I suppose this is all well and good for leftists, who seek not the abolition of the existing conditions, but their renewal. But it is not at all consistent for communists. To the Communist pertains the entire history of struggle of our global proletarian class, and our people are the fellow proles of this world in the real movement of struggle to put an end once and for all to their condition as such. Nothing less, nothing more.
>>1160141 >the current chinese government sees themselves as rightful heirs to the qin throne WTF?! You gotta smash them 4 olds uighur! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Olds
>>1160348 I have literally never heard a coherent argument why nationalist sentiments in the imperial core must *necessarily* be chauvinist or reactionary. What is stopping a movement from promoting socialism and anti-imperialism while also appealing to feelings of national pride?
>>1160624 I have never heard a coherent argument for why national pride is desirable.
>>1160630 Social cohesion DPRK, Cuba, China and Vietnam would be Africa with maybe electricity like the Balkans w/out it
>>1160639 Or India
>>1160630 It’s a far more effective means of rallying people behind your movement. Most people will have a strong aversion to a movement which tells them that the nation with which they identify is irredeemably evil. It’s the same reason why you won’t gain any friends among white proles if you lecture them about the evils of whiteness.
>>1160639 And unity, might I add. Though it can be considered under social cohesion too, when it's used as a method to unify multiple nations and ethnicities under one country.
>>1160642 No one is saying that we should build a movement on "America is evil", but why should American communists ignore the horror their country has brought to the world, and further fuel the national pride of a warmongering people? Do you not see where that is going to end, regardless of the inner circle of the party's best intentions? If you appeal to nationalism, you'll have nationalists flock to your party. I agree nationalism is an empty shell, and it doesn't necessarily have to be imperialist/chauvinist, but nationalism in the western world *is* currently imperialist/chauvinist, and I see no reason that's going to change. >>1160639 >DPRK, Cuba, China and Vietnam would be Africa with maybe electricity like the Balkans w/out it This is so fucking dumb. Just because they chose nationalism as their religion doesn't mean there's no alternative. And there's night and day difference between nationalism in the periphery and in the imperial core.
>>1160708 >why should American communists ignore the horror their country has brought to the world, and further fuel the national pride of a warmongering people? I'm not suggesting we should. It's a question of framing and contextualizing these things in a way which serves our cause. Like many on the left, you seem to take the approach that a nation's history and identity is defined by the actions of its ruling class. I think the opposite is true. A nation is composed primarily of its common people, and the actions, culture, and history, of slaves and proles is a more authentic expression of America than plantation owners and industrialists. We ought to encourage American proles to take pride and draw inspiration from the likes of John Brown and Fred Hampton, to view these people as exemplary of the values embodied by the struggles of the American people. Conversely, we should condemn the ruling class as unpatriotic parasites sucking the blood of the nation, and whose loyalties lie with global capital rather than their own countrymen. The distinction between the imperial core and periphery is meaningless when the working people of all countries are colonized by capital. >I agree nationalism is an empty shell, and it doesn't necessarily have to be imperialist/chauvinist, but nationalism in the western world *is* currently imperialist/chauvinist, and I see no reason that's going to change. It's up to us to change it.
>>1160708 >doesn't mean there's no alternative. Humour me, name one alternative that's still standing the social patriotism of Yugoslavia and the USSR had promise, but didn't hold I'm willing to be convinced
>>1160723 I'm not saying a nation is defined by the actions of the ruling class, but the ruling class certainly shapes cultural/national identity through various means. Yes, there are certainly more authentic expressions of culture, though I'm not sure why culture is being equated with nationalism or the nation. >Conversely, we should condemn the ruling class as unpatriotic parasites sucking the blood of the nation, and whose loyalties lie with global capital rather than their own countrymen. Why not just condemn the ruling class as parasites sucking the blood of the working class, and whose loyalties lie with capital rather than the workers? >The distinction between the imperial core and periphery is meaningless when the working people of all countries are colonized by capital. It's definitely not meaningless. Nationalism is the obvious product of the nation-state, and since nations are not equal, different nationalisms will emerge. >>1160723 What about the revolution? The working classes? The state? The democratic will of the people? There are many (m)Others, it doesn't have to be the motherland. National identity seems less and less relevant as time goes on and capital globalizes. Especially with the internet - we can discuss these things for hours without even having the slightest idea where the other part is from.
>>1159649 >>1159668 what I don't get is didn't the left praise Bernie for calling open borders a Koch Brothers proposal? What was his take on it? Though the idea of nationalism is utter shit isn't it true people like Cesar Chavez fought to protect workers from the devaluation of their labor from Mexicans who would work for anything?
>>1160853 Still standing?
>>1160853 >but the ruling class certainly shapes cultural/national identity through various means Bourgeois nationalism is a part of the capitalist superstructure yes. However obviously a socialist movement and state would generate its own superstructure, and I think that one which embraces nationalism would be more effective than one which rejects it. >though I'm not sure why culture is being equated with nationalism or the nation. They aren't the same of course, but a sense of shared collective identity based around culture, history, values, and institutions is the core of nationalism. >Why not just condemn the ruling class as parasites sucking the blood of the working class, and whose loyalties lie with capital rather than the workers? We can do that as well, however at some point the national question is bound to come up. At some point reactionaries will accuse us of hating our country, at which point we can either confirm or deny that accusation. I think that denying it is a far more effective message, and if we deny it then we are compelled to reconcile our vision for the nation with our vision for socialism, and thus produce a left-nationalism. >Nationalism is the obvious product of the nation-state, and since nations are not equal, different nationalisms will emerge. You're right, the distinction isn't totally meaningless, and has important implications in all sorts of areas. However it does not in and of itself condemn all nationalism of the imperial core to be reactionary. The actual condition of proles in the core vs the periphery is not a qualitative difference but a quantitative one. They are both exploited by the same people and forces, the proles of the core are simply exploited less. The nationalism of the periphery is considered revolutionary by virtue of the fact that it is the nationalism of the exploited, but more specifically it is the nationalism of the great masses of exploited peasants and workers in the third world. It is not the nationalism of the comprador bourgeoisie and local collaborators with imperialism. If the masses of colonized countries can forge a nationalism which excludes members of their own culture who exploit them, then proles in the imperial core can do the same.
>>1159637 Oh, don't mind me, being empathetic with Marxism I do appreciate the power of internationalism, a juxtaposition of globalization, and patriots can advance the view to up to what it is a nation depending on the conditions. >>1159653 >while nationalism is usually critical of it. Yeah, no. patriots as I said criticize their own government because they know their mistakes and failures. Nationalists only imposed their supremacist world view as criticism for weak governments.
>>1159176 adam sandler lol
>>1159184 >proceeds to instantly condemn 85 percent of previous leftist leaders Trot moment
>>1159176 Its good, see castro, sankara, sandino, zapata, allende, chavez, etc
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>>1160873 I don't know who those "leftists" are, I don't know any, and I don't agree with Bernie Sanders about that. I'm from Texas incidentally and communists and socialists I know are 100% opposed to deportations and militarizing the border. I'm willing to be introduced to someone here on the anti-capitalist left who disagrees with me. My personal position is based on Emma Tenayuca's "The Mexican Question in the Southwest" which was published in the 1930s by the Communist Party of Texas. BTW, it was the state party underneath the CPUSA when Earl Browder was running the show that this anon posted a cartoon about: >>1159353 Tenayuca's position is an end to discrimination, bilingual education, the naturalization of anyone in Texas who wanted it, and even allowing non-citizens to vote if they professed a desire to become citizens. And that's not even that radical, that was actually legal in Texas in the past. Why? Because the immigrants were white people from Europe and when more Mexicans started coming to Texas, the law changed and effectively turned several million people into second-class citizens, in 1921, coinciding with the birth of the second Ku Klux Klan and the reactionary Harding and Coolidge administrations. I've met communists here distributing this article in pamphlet form. So that's my view about it. Here's a link: https://www.marxists.org/history/usa/pubs/communist/v18n03-mar-1939-The-Communist-OCR.pdf
>>1163462 (me) Should clarify that the position is FOR bilingual education and naturalization. Also I think Bernie is just a typical social-democratic opportunist who wants to win elections. Here are some pictures of Tenayuca. I'll just add that I'm of German-American descent and my family were German immigrants to Texas. In fact, Karl Marx considered immigrating to Texas and his brother-in-law Edgar von Westphalen -- also a communist -- moved to Texas in the 19th century. So no, I don't believe in deporting immigrants.

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