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/leftypol/ is a non-sectarian board for leftist discussion. IRC: Rizon.net #bunkerchan https://qchat.rizon.net/?channels=bunkerchan

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Question on the start of Capital Anonymous 03/21/2020 (Sat) 05:45:54 No. 383181 [Reply] [Last]
The world is burning, what better time to read Capital? I've just started, like literally only read the first section of the first chapter, although I do already know a lot about the LTV already so not going in completely blind. However there seem to be two fundamental points in this first section that Marx is building up on top of, and I've spent time trying to justify them to myself but I can't quite do it, can some comrades help me out here? First off is the assertion that if x corn = y iron, then x corn and y iron must be mutually equal to some third thing. I almost get this but it still feels like a jump to me. Why *must* they be equal to some external third quantity? The only reason that comes to mind is that maybe this third quantity is more 'fundamental' somehow, in that it isn't expressed in terms of another commodity but rather a pure number, but I still feel like this is hazy too so I would appreciate some clarifications. Secondly is the abstraction of use value in equivalence. I completely agree that in comparing corn to iron, their material uses are stripped away, leaving just different quantities to be balanced out. But what about 'usefulness' of a commodity? Marx seems to assert that as long as something *is* useful, it doesn't matter in what way, but can't we say that it might matter *how* useful something is, almost as if usefulness had a quantity of it's own which played into these weightings? I understand that the next step in the argument is that if usefulness is abstracted away, this necessarily only leaves the quantity of labour, or labour time, imbued in the commodity. Again, I agree with this for the nature of the usefulness, but I can't articulate as to why this also must abstract about 'quantity' of usefulness. What if iron is just more useful than corn as a general statement? Then surely this would factor into a difference in value, *as well as* the labour time required to produce a given quantity, no? I know this argument is wrong somehow but I don't understand this well enough to figure out why. Can anyone help me out with both these things?
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"First Premises of Materialist Method The premises from which we begin are not arbitrary ones, not dogmas, but real premises from which abstraction can only be made in the imagination. They are the real individuals, their activity and the material conditions under which they live, both those which they find already existing and those produced by their activity. These premises can thus be verified in a purely empirical way." https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01a.htm The scientific premise (of the Materialist Method) is reality, and we can empirically infer that people do this (this is what money does) - this is exactly the defining characteristic of generalised commodity production, generalised exchange! However! - consider if this was not true. We have then two commodities of two (generally) unequal quantities (x corn and y iron). Since we have generalised exchange, then corn can also be exchanged for linen, as can iron. Say that z_x is the amount of linen we receive for x corn, and z_y is the amount of linen we receive for y amount of iron. If z_x and z_y are not equal, then one is greater than the other. Without loss of generality, we assume that z_x > z_y. We could then get our hands on x amount of iron, exchange it for z_x linen, and then exchange z_y of the linen for y iron, and end up with (z_x - z_y) linen and y iron. If we exchange y iron for x corn, we end up with x corn and (z_y - z_x) linen, so we have a surplus of (z_y - z_x) linen, just by moving paper around.
>>383248 No, definitely not. Marx explicitly says in Capital vol 2 they are not currency, and furthermore they do not mediate exchange value because value itself doesn't exist by this point of Socialism - all labour is already directly social as production is communally owned and so the transition from private to social labour - the act that bestows value - cannot take place.
>>383327 honestly Tiqqun made an interesting article on ‘use value’ called ‘on the economy considered as black magic’ which does have its metaphysical parts but it addresses commodity equivalency vs singularity of individuals while belonging to a larger group. There are a couple works it draws heavily on including one I can only find in French but it’s still doable. >>383203 np anonrade, it’s fundamental algebra but you probably took that class ages ago and thus forgot
>>383181 >First off is the assertion that if x corn = y iron, then x corn and y iron must be mutually equal to some third thing. I almost get this but it still feels like a jump to me. Why *must* they be equal to some external third quantity? Because iron and corn are two different things. They have little in common with each other, but they have some quantity by which you can compare them. The third thing isn't another commodity like >>383189 implies. The third thing is more conceptual. It is a factor that exists in common between the two things that allows you to compare them. The "third thing" is really just the comparator between the two. >Secondly is the abstraction of use value in equivalence. I completely agree that in comparing corn to iron, their material uses are stripped away, leaving just different quantities to be balanced out. But what about 'usefulness' of a commodity? Marx seems to assert that as long as something *is* useful, it doesn't matter in what way, but can't we say that it might matter *how* useful something is, almost as if usefulness had a quantity of it's own which played into these weightings? The best way to think about this is that there is a finite demand for things. Where you have less supply than demand you have scarcity. Where you have more supply than demand you have abundance. If the demand/need is fully supplied, there isn't use-value/utility in exceeding it. And in capitalism you can actually have a crisis of overproduction, where the supply is high enough it drives the price too low to be sold for a profit. >I understand that the next step in the argument is that if usefulness is abstracted away, this necessarily only leaves the quantity of labour, or labour time, imbued in the commodity. Again, I agree with this for the nature of the usefulness, but I can't articulate as to why this also must abstract about 'quantity' of usefulness. What if iron is just more useful than corn as a general statement? Then surely this would factor into a difference in value, *as well as* the labour time required to produce a given quantity, no? The factor in play is demand. There is more demand for iron. The reason everything gets stripped away but labor input is because the labor input is what you (the general, conceptual you) have to trade to get the product. You can think of it like the natural cost of the thing. Society or the economy has to pay nature the labor input to turn existing resources into the product, and then once that happens the product can be exchanged on the market according to that. The price fluctuates based on other factors, and even the value degrades with use or deterioration of the product.
>>383539 >Society can simply calculate how many hours of labour are contained in a steam-engine >>383562 >This quote is about gift economies among Indians and Slavs Certainly not. >>383736 >Tiqqun made an interesting article on ‘use value’ called ‘on the economy considered as black magic’ That text misrepresents Marx in basically every second paragraph (the other paragraphs are about other French "theorists"). <He thought he’d found such a foundation [of equivalence between commodities] in use value No, the foundation is socially necessary labor time. This is basic Marx101 knowledge. <For Marx, use value has no mystery about it; it is the bare state of the thing Marx criticizes that point of view in Capital when he brings up magnets and society's evolving understanding of what those are useful for. <work has finally showed itself to be something inessential This isn't even worthy of a rebuttal. <Use value is to need what Marx considers that exchange value is to labor: use value is the abstract need crystallized in a particular thing, which appears as a purely specific quality of that thing, because need is presented as something general, abstract. Use value is NOT presented in some abstract way by the economic system, so the analogy doesn't work at all. Talking about complex gift-giving rituals between islanders:

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Fuck The Rich Anonymous 03/21/2020 (Sat) 13:55:22 No. 383457 [Reply] [Last]
Fuck The Rich thread >What is this thread <An attempt to document and archive the corrupt behavior of the ruling class and their political cronies by saving media sources posted to this board and around the web >Who <Politicians & State Officials, Corporations & Board Members, Landlords, Journalists, etc >Why <For many reasons; not least of all to make referencing arguments and propagandizing that much easier. When someone is searching for a specific source for whatever reason, a having go-to that saves in full detail public information regarding the thoughts and actions of these people is a necessity. > What should I post? + Anything. Social Media Posts, Recordings / Videos (webm, mp4), News Articles, literally anything that can be used against these people in order to hold them to account. Again, the aim is to index these sources so anyone can browse them at their leisure (rage-fuel, etc) > Does this mean I can dox someone? + Absolutely not; if the information is not in the public domain (i.e. legally publishable) then do not post it here; this thread is for crowd-sourcing only. Ask before you submit something if you're not sure

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>>383781 But anon, a plague could lead to liquidation of those ideas which hold humanity back from its own liberation. It's quite literally a great thing.
>>383781 Nobody is being Malthusian here. It's an established fact boomers are the enablers of reactionary forces in society without which we would be much farther ahead in terms of progress.
>>383696 >>383707 >>383727 >>383770 nice to see someone beat me to it. t. lives in palm beach county
>>383773 <Does a recess mean I can go home and play xbox?
>>383787 Quarter across the planet. Solidarity forever, my guy. >>383770 Omari is active on twitter: https://twitter.com/OmariJHardy

Anonymous 03/21/2020 (Sat) 05:18:35 No. 383154 [Reply] [Last]
Since we're all supposed to stay at home now, how do we continue to organize the working class online? This recession is the best and last opportunity we are ever going to get for a socialist revolution, we gotta make it count, virus or no virus.
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>>383333 I love this gif, v spooky. Nice trips as well comrade.
I'm gonna pull a 1917 Lenin and just read my ass off until the pandemic wanes, crowds are again able to be formed. This is when we agitate for communism.
>>383758 A pre-1917* Lenin.
We need to do organised propaganda its all we can do with the internet
>>383294 People are already doing this in my city and it is good

Anonymous 03/18/2020 (Wed) 04:18:07 No. 372857 [Reply] [Last]
RIOT CHAT LIVE NOW Join the community here (note there is only one room at the moment and this link may not work on some formats): https://matrix.to/#/+leftychat:matrix.org Or just join the chat here: https://matrix.to/#/!dhlFwOHaIgFJOiLFYi:matrix.org?via=matrix.org Be safe >Don't post information that could identify you, however small >Don't use the same name on many platforms, use a new name if possible >The server is not owned by the site staff (yet), don't do anything stupid >The chat history exists forever, anything you say can be used by bad actors to doxx you >Be smart, use your brain. Link to the web app: https://riot.im/app/

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Edited last time by comraderat on 03/21/2020 (Sat) 10:59:38.
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>>382438 >Using your forum >your not >our cringe, get out
>>380522 >>380966 Retards, it's easy to build a profile on someone if they use the same handle in multiple places. Right-wingers do it all the time. At least imageboards don't require you to become a prancing namefaggot.
>>382960 Addendum - I also expect some guidelines on proper infosec. Use a throwaway name. Don't post identifying details about your daily life, even if you think it's not a big deal. Let people know upfront that it is logged, not end-to-end encrypted and that the server is not under our control (until this is rectified). Shit like that should be an absolute minimum, so please edit the OP. As for my reasoning, board posters know what they say will be on the general public Internet. When you are chatting in real time you let your guard down. Now throw in social engineering, moles and other fags into the mix. Chatrooms are way easier for glowies and rightists to infiltrate & target than forums. Just remember that the topic of trannies nearly got this website killed, and there is a reason why Shitcord groups have been associated with wreckers and needless drama in the past.
>>383063 Added some warning. End to end doesn't matter since you are not sending any data to the server that other people aren't allowed to know, all your messages are public. For personal messages you have to enable end to end yourself
As an enthusiast who've followed the matrix/riot developments for the last couple of years: the main thing to keep your eye on is this: >Declaring End-to-end Encryption stable and turning it on by default for private rooms. (12/14 tasks completed): https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/6779 The last statement (March 18) from the devs reads: >We're roughly a few weeks away from releasing this to the stable channel, but that may change if we uncover new areas of the project that we feel must be fixed before release. >The team is working hard on this, and we're excited to share it with everyone when it's ready. This is what I personally was waiting for before making a huge OP on /tech/ (and /leftypol/).

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Donbass Anonymous 03/19/2020 (Thu) 20:03:07 No. 378768 [Reply] [Last]
Can anyone explain what's happening in Donbass currently? Are Donetsk and Luhansk actual "people's republics"? Is this a civil war we should actively support, like with volunteers, gunrunning, pro-independence propaganda, etc? What would be the process of getting over there and actually joining their armed forces? Any general information would be appreciated, I've tried independently researching things, but I feel as though I also want a nuanced view. Thank you for reading and/or adding your thoughts!
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>>383513 >>383537 Ah the right sector my favorite anarcho-communist group. It's full of wonderful and tremendous people, many of whom I tenderly support. I wish the best in their struggles! And who could forget their wonderful anarcho-communist slogan "God! Ukraine! Freedom!"
>>383547 what possible ends do you see to the conflict and is it happening anytime soon? Can things stay as they are for many more years?
>>383576 Literally nobody believes in an end to the conflict. It's a complete stalemate. If RF steps little too far it could trigger NATO going harambe, but if NATO gives Ukrainian state even a little too much help, RF will respond like vipers, and ergo massive war (perhaps even third world war). Second world war is still in the collective mind and nobody wants it. However, it is the ONLY thing that will solve this conflict in the same way as the Israel-Palestine catastrophe of human relations. Principally however, it is people's belief in the idea of the nation that is creating this absolute nonsense war. It is a war of markets from both sides which uses the idea of "nationality", that is separation between people, to use working people as tools, like chess pieces. Same old game as the lords of old days. We need class consciousness more than ever.
>>383632 What you're saying rings true. Unfortunately if I had to put money on it, I think NATO is going to crumble before Russia. And the new france/german bloc that is emerging now in europe is not as invested in ukraine as the USA/NATO is.
>>383657 It's certainly possible considering the state of western countries of our time. But I tell you it would be a total disaster for Europe because it will open the door to RF who will make the entire Europe its satellites (this will be objectively worse than the current state of western liberal democracy). Your socialist beliefs will not be as well tolerated, regardless of how many USSR flags you have lying around. In fact racists and chauvinists, general alt-right people in western countries will fare far better under RF hegemony than any actual leftists.

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News 3/20/20 News Anon 3.0 03/20/2020 (Fri) 20:24:51 No. 382059 [Reply] [Last]
Police Discover Arsenal of Heavy Weapons at Athens House According to Greek police, an entire arsenal of heavy weapons was found on Thursday morning at a house in Sepolia, central Athens, during an ongoing operation by the Counter-Terrorism Service.Additional weapons were also found in another house in Exarchia, which are believed to be related to the Kurdish group “DHKP-C.” https://greece.greekreporter.com/2020/03/19/police-discover-arsenal-of-heavy-weapons-at-athens-house/ https://archive.is/YeL2U OAS Countries Re-Elect Luis Almagro as Secretary With 23 Votes In a favorable outcome for President Donald Trump's foreign policy towards Latin America, twenty-three countries of the Organization of American States (OAS) Friday re-elected Luis Almagro as the Secretary-General of this institution, a position that he will hold until 2025. https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/OAS-Countries-Re-Elect-Luis-Almagro-as-Secretary-With-23-Votes-20200320-0012.html Syriza leader Tsipras offers collaboration with New Democracy against refugees and Turkey This month Syriza (Coalition of the Radical Left) leader and former prime minister Alexis Tsipras boasted of his anti-immigration record, while offering cooperation to the New Democracy (ND) government in both its anti-migrant offensive and in any hostilities towards Turkey. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/03/20/gree-m20.html Chile protesters move off streets amid coronavirus outbreak Street protests paused as gov't declares state of catastrophe, but movement continues with pots and pans, other methods. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/chile-protesters-move-streets-coronavirus-outbreak-200318211153973.html https://archive.is/IAvkE

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>>383162 >These shutdowns and emergency situations are giving unprecedented opportunities for the development of a strong police state in virtually every country developed enough to have one. This will be hugely problematic when we attempt to build dual power as the national guards, militaries, security services, etc. (with the aid of the fascist paramilitaries that will be forming soon) can crush strike action and the organization of the workers. Arguably the biggest roadblock right now and, distressingly, the one I see almost no socialists discussing. There is a sort of feudal era battle mentality that still lingers in most of socialist thinking, where people picture the socialist side and the fascist paramilitary troops meeting up somewhere in a field and then they charge at each other. Which is kinda stupid The hard right edge are people that are not technically motivated to fight for the interest of capital, they usually are baited/deceived/instrumentalised/bribed into it. Methods that are used are: go capturing the pockemon - like the Joo, the foreigner, ... fight for a territory, and land for you and your family fight for breeding rights, serve the capitalist master and get a breeding partner: men are promised intimacy, and women are promised economic security and protected nesting-space from the out-side chaos in exchange for intimacy. the right wing intelligentsia gets status money to the extend they can manufacture unpayed loyalty, but they also get promised the right/ability to "shape the human form". Obviously none of these promises are going to be honoured, the loyalty these people advance will not be reciprocated This is the weak spot, this is what you have to attack. Noteworthy here is that they don't say these things in a clear and direct manor, they just sort of use alternative veiled language that just hints at this. It might be that the entire construct evaporates if it's expressed in an unveiled manor. There also is a sort of parallel development to this in the pseudo left that aligns it-self with corporations, it's the same mechanisms but different false promises are made, within a different configuration of social privileges. You can definitely get this faction to attack the right wing paramilitaries through state mechanisms. As far as dealing with reactionary forces go, we cannot try to repeat the last century and try to crush them, this will not work a second time, it's a used up strategy. You have to start using their resources against them.
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>>383244 >>383162 >>383255 >>383364 >I mean, we already can't contend >with the police state as it is, >even on guerilla terms. >I think most serious socialists >have just given up on the >possibility of fighting against >the state in a military engagement >of any form. No There never was going to be a pitched battle between proles and the state of course. The proletariat has in it's possesion today, the means to conduct an insurrection, and use guerrilla tactics to delay the response of security force long enough for a relatively smooth power transfer to occur. This is a scary thought comrades, because it pit's us up against our governments, the ultimate daddy, and opens us up for reprisal, instead of cowardly ducking our heads in submission, by proclaiming an early defeat. What we lack today, that is keeping us from reaping what is our's, is inertia, and a current lack of organization to conduct operations, this however is being built up right now. In my understanding there can be no serious expansions of the states power, when it has no room to grow. The captalist mode of production in America and elswhere is in free fall, and there has been a flight of capital to China.

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>>383255 >most funding toward the Millitary Industrial Complex goes toward private firms whose entire job is to try and procure funding from the govt to line their pockets Critical support to comrade governement corruption.
>>383429 >What we lack today, that is keeping us from reaping what is our's, is inertia, and a current lack of organization to conduct operations, this however is being built up right now Do you mean through the direct action groups that have sprung up in the wake of the corona virus?>>362972 or something else?
>>383433 corrupto-accelerationism is the only righteous path porky can take besides Seppuku

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Anonymous 03/21/2020 (Sat) 10:26:44 No. 383315 [Reply] [Last]
Are you a member of a communist party /leftypol/? What's it like?
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>>383484 Which party?
>>383354 I'll kill you
data mining
>>383490 You're an idiot.
>>383532 Skimming this thread he seems more reasonable than you.

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Anonymous 03/20/2020 (Fri) 14:24:17 No. 381168 [Reply] [Last]
Just a friendly reminder that in times like these (or any other time), it is important to be armed both intellectually and physically. Get fit, get a gun. /k/ has a really good thread up offering advice to nogunners and first time buyers. Neoliberalism is not equipment to handle something like this, and it *might* be our chance. Stay safe and clean comrades.
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>>382510 >giving people practical advice on buying guns legally makes me a fed
>>382498 Makes sense to me to keep the higher calibre reserved to the LMG, it's rarer and if you're hitting a building with a lot of fire you want it to rip it apart and kill everyone inside, not leave it covered in pockmarks. Here in Britain we used to use the FAL and we got fucked on the contracts when switching over to STANAG which resulted in the production of the L85A1. Even our LMG is meant to be 5.56 now (it isn't, there's liberal use of the M240). There's a reason the official lower calibre weapon was dropped for a belt fed higher calibre weapon, and this leaves the battle rifle obsolete, if you want to penetrate a building then you will need to fire enough bullets to make sure the job is done. The 5.56 has better range and accuracy than the 7.62, so the higher calibre is all about penetration. That's why the AK74 dropped down to 5.45, to trade the penetration for accuracy and range while keeping the higher calibre bullets for machineguns.
>>382527 Battle rifles are still useful in a DMR role though, and imo being able to use both 5.56 and 7.62 is an advantage. From a civilian ownership perspective it seems like there’s no reason not to have one if you can afford it.
>>382560 I just don't think you're going to burn through enough 5.56 to justify it considering it's so ubiquitous in America. You'd be better off buying an extortionately priced larger calibre LMG.
>>382527 >>382560 These days it would be easier to buy/build an AR chambered in 308 to fill that role. Shit can tear through level 4 plates. When it comes to guerillas, large calibers should be reserved for bolt actions. Take out your enemy one by one from a distance, make it so they never feel safe that's how the Provos did it.

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Can we start crowdsourcing the addresses of killer cops in the US and their families? Anonymous 03/20/2020 (Fri) 20:54:10 No. 382116 [Reply] [Last]
It'd be sick if they knew what it was like to lose their privacy or, worse, their lives or those of their kids.
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>>382405 This but unironically. Individual cops are not worth opposing. They can just be replaced. It's much better to AGITATE the workers.
glow sticks aside, anyone we should be really concerned about probably lives in some sort of enclave like Manhattan or Palm Beach and we’re actually far to separated by geographical distances. Better yet, study the imperial apparatuses in your locality and disseminate knowledge of how to bypass or disrupt them. We aren’t confronting an enemy with a face as much as an environment of ‘dispositifs’
Fuck cops and all ACAB and all that but what do you hope to achieve from this? It’s not organising against them, you aren’t building power, you’re just laying the glowing brick road for some mega autismo to skip happily down and get shot spray painting some old alcoholic cops house or something. Your efforts are much better spent doing other things like finding and organising a core of 10 people who are all fit and training arms and tactics and so on. Or organise against capital in the workplace, in renters unions and so on
Agree. We should all meet up and discuss this further in person.
>>382156 Different flavor of bootlicker

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