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/leftypol/ is a non-sectarian board for leftist discussion.

IRC: Rizon.net #bunkerchan
https://qchat.rizon.net/?channels=bunkerchan

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Scandypol Snow Edition 11/14/2019 (Thu) 00:55:45 No. 126021 [Reply]
*How are the socialist parties in Scandinavia doing currently?*

Is Rødt's populist strategy working?
30 posts and 3 images omitted.
https://www.nrk.no/finnmark/moxnes-ble-nektet-adgang-pa-ambulanseflybasen-i-kirkenes-1.14787484

The owner of the privatised emergency helicopter firm denied the socialist party leader in Norway access in one of the centers. In a fear of a strike perhaps?
>>126279
RS sure are optimistic about their role in the coming years. While I for the most part agree with their analysis, I highly doubt they are gonna see any rise in support. Political engagement among the youth is far more likely to manifest in increased support for Enhedslisten/SF/RV or various astroturfed orgs like Extinction Rebellion. There's a reason why half the party split off to join Enhedslisten, you're never gonna get anything done as some fringe trot party -- that's the whole reason why the party was created in the first place. Any left movement, if there ever is one in this shithole of a country, is gonna be centred around that party, and you're far more likely to accomplish something by trying to move the party to the left than trying to compete with it. If you can't accomplish that you've already lost.
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>>137654
This seems the be the general consensus with all of the Northern SocDem countries, So many socialist reformist, so many people who don't believe in a revolution, so many people who sold their soul to the "welfare" state. Sometimes i wish we were more like America and just fucked shit up so bad that people would at least feel like they had a reason to rise up instead of being neutered by socialist reformation policies.
But hey at least we have the 1. May i guess.
>>146182
I actually would doubt this consensus, at least from a Norwegian perspective. Join a socialist party and in the grassroots and see how radical they are. They would suprise you. It sure suprised me at the very least.
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>>126023
>bourgeois nation

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Proudhon on communism Anonymous 11/20/2019 (Wed) 04:31:05 No. 133150 [Reply]
>Singularly enough, systematic communism — the deliberate negation of property — is conceived under the direct influence of the proprietary prejudice; and property is the basis of all communistic theories.

>The members of a community, it is true, have no private property; but the community is proprietor, and proprietor not only of the goods, but of the persons and wills. In consequence of this principle of absolute property, labor, which should be only a condition imposed upon man by Nature, becomes in all communities a human commandment, and therefore odious. Passive obedience, irreconcilable with a reflecting will, is strictly enforced. Fidelity to regulations, which are always defective, however wise they may be thought, allows of no complaint. Life, talent, and all the human faculties are the property of the State, which has the right to use them as it pleases for the common good. Private associations are sternly prohibited, in spite of the likes and dislikes of different natures, because to tolerate them would be to introduce small communities within the large one, and consequently private property; the strong work for the weak, although this ought to be left to benevolence, and not enforced, advised, or enjoined; the industrious work for the lazy, although this is unjust; the clever work for the foolish, although this is absurd; and, finally, man — casting aside his personality, his spontaneity, his genius, and his affections — humbly annihilates himself at the feet of the majestic and inflexible Commune!

>Communism is inequality, but not as property is. Property is the exploitation of the weak by the strong. Communism is the exploitation of the strong by the weak. In property, inequality of conditions is the result of force, under whatever name it be disguised: physical and mental force; force of events, chance, fortune; force of accumulated property, &c. In communism, inequality springs from placing mediocrity on a level with excellence. This damaging equation is repellent to the conscience, and causes merit to complain; for, although it may be the duty of the strong to aid the weak, they prefer to do it out of generosity, — they never will endure a comparison. Give them equal opportunities of labor, and equal wages, but never allow their jealousy to be awakened by mutual suspicion of unfaithfulness in the performance of the common task.

>Communism is oppression and slavery. Man is very willing to obey the law of duty, serve his country, and oblige his friends; but he wishes to labor when he pleases, where he pleases, and as much as he pleases. He wishes to dispose of his own time, to be governed only by necessity, to choose his friendships, his recreation, and his discipline; to act from judgment, not by command; to sacrifice himself through selfishness, not through servile obligation. Communism is essentially opposed to the free exercise of our faculties, to our noblest desires, to our deepest feelings. Any plan which could be devised for reconciling it with the demands of the individual reason and will would end only in changing the thing while preserving the name. Now, if we are honest truth-seekers, we shall avoid disputes about words.

>Thus, communism violates the sovereignty of the conscience, and equality: the first, by restricting spontaneity of mind and heart, and freedom of thought and action; the second, by placing labor and laziness, skill and stupidity, and even vice and virtue on an equality in point of comfort. For the rest, if property is impossible on account of the desire to accumulate, communism would soon become so through the desire to shirk.

Refute this.
24 posts and 5 images omitted.
>>146358
Oh anon, if only you knew how I yearn for the sweet subjugation of the promised transitionary society. No amount of subjective scarcity could ever discourage me from leaping into the cold embrace of its forced labor camps. For although my labor will be alienated, I would take comfort in knowing that as it leaves my body, it enters into the cybernetic flowcharts, pure and safe, untainted by the wastes of capital and spared the irrationality of markets. And even if I were to be exploited, there would be no resentment. I would summon my dévouement and gently send off my labor - now unfortunately in the commodity form - reassured by the knowledge that while I won't get as many labor-hours in return, someone out there will make good use of that surplus, and that someone will never be porky.
>>146507
...Might be fun, but maybe only during vacationtime? As an alternative to consuming somewhere else.
What's a fun organizational structure for such a camp, the easiest way to mobilize the weekend soldier demonstrators for any directed cause might be just this.
>>146262
>Proudhon said he wanted to live in a society where he would be guillotined as a reactionary
So, the Soviet Union?
>>146262
he'd be guillotined in any ex ml countries because he was a racist cunt lmao
>>133153
this is a shit answer. Don't cite without explanation.

>>133150
if some people work harder of not so hard is of little importance when most people work roughly the same intensity. If you want to work extra hard, fine, if for some reason you can't work, also fine. If you refuse to work, you don't eat. Why should you?

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Anonymous 11/30/2019 (Sat) 16:37:05 No. 144145 [Reply]
I have to find a present for my communist/socialist brother for Christmas. Ideas?
41 posts and 9 images omitted.
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I once got this in a secret santa, found it quite funny and useful
>>146445
About as ironic as people having to pay to visit his grave tbh

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International Commission of Inquiry Into the 1932–1933 Famine in Ukraine Anonymous 12/02/2019 (Mon) 05:00:54 No. 145820 [Reply]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Commission_of_Inquiry_Into_the_1932–33_Famine_in_Ukraine


https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/calls-grow-to-fire-university-of-alberta-lecturer-who-deemed-ukrainian-genocide-a-myth-1.4707517

Thankfully, he'll likely be fired.

Holodomor Denial should be treated the same as denial of the Armenian Genocide, the Holocaust, denial of the Cambodian Genocide by the Khmer Rouge.
11 posts and 10 images omitted.
>>145869
>Nobody denies that the Soviet famine of 1932-33 occurred and had several different causes and contributing factors. However there is zero evidence for it being an intentional planned genocide targeted specifically at Ukrainians a.k.a "Holodomor".
This.
Dougal Macdonald's facebook post appears to say that the famine itself was a myth invented by the Nazis and the Hearst press.
>>145820
I used to think it was man-made, but then I read more about it and realised that the claims it was man-made didn't really make sense.

This resource helped and should be required reading for participation in this thread: https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2014/06/07/facts-about-the-holodomor-and-why-its-fake/

Especially cause those who write in support of the man-made Holodomor theory write things like this:
>First, it should be understood, that after decades of dismissal, denial and obfuscation of the famine by Soviet propagandists and fellow enablers in the West, there is now a massive amount of evidence which establishes that millions of Ukrainians were deliberately starved to death in 1932-1933 as a result of Soviet policy.
>Numerous books, scholarly articles, and academic conferences devoted to the subject irrefutably document that the Kremlin implemented a host of measures immediately before, during, and after the famine that were designed to break the widespread Ukrainian resistance to the brutal forced collectivization of agriculture while simultaneously dealing a crippling blow to Ukrainian aspirations for greater autonomy or potentially independence — a right theoretically guaranteed by the Soviet Constitution.
<Numerous
>doesn't name a single one
Most people who say Holodomor is man made say something like this: "Ukrainians defied Stalin. Stalin is an evil man. Therefore Stalin punished the Ukrainians for defying him." That isn't enough for me. The only reason I thought it was man-made before because that was the "accepted" theory and people just said it. I uncritically accepted it until I was in conversation with someone about it so I looked up information about it to educate myself.

If I changed my mind once, I am happy to do it again if new research/evidence comes to light. And I did do due diligence and have tried to find evidence. A good place to go would be the Holodomor Research and Education Consortium (https://holodomor.ca/), a Canadian association which actually receives government grants.

So I go on over to the page that says "Holodomor Basic Facts" (https://holodomor.ca/holodomor-basic-facts/). Immediately that is a red flag. No historian worth his salt will ever talk about "facts", that's the language of ideologues and dogmatists. The sources on that page are all academic works written post-2000, except a book by Robert Conquest published in 1987. No contemporary sources, unlike the mltheory.wordpress.com page that cites contemporary historians.

Moving on I go to the "Academic Articles" section (https://holodomor.ca/academic-articles/). There, all the articles in English are written by one person -- Frank E. Sysyn. This tells us that this person built his career on the topic of Holodomor being man-made. Again, not a very good sign if you're a student of history.

Message too long. Click here to view full text.

>>146233

If you look deeper into the academic papers into the Holodomor. There's a lot of meta-papers that discuss the archives, but rarely will you find anyone translating the archives. Even those papers admit the sources are fucky:
>In addition, medical and paramedics' documents record only the names of local residents, so that hundreds of thousands of unfortunate people fleeing starving villages remain anonymous in documents, which simply list them as nameless "beggars." Special methods will be needed to properly assess the demographic data as well as to reconstruct the instructions given to local physicians in making diagnoses. As noted earlier, the Chekists themselves acknowledged that local authorities produced falsified data about the scale of starvation and mortality.
http://history.org.ua/LiberUA/Book/USF/2.pdf

You can ascribe the famine to incompetence, bad reporting of officials on the ground, fear of retribution if the correct numbers aren't shown, blah blah blah. But there is not enough evidence to show that it was a deliberate act by Stalin/CPSU.

(2/2) Increase the damn character limit!
>>146233
>I don't wish to discredit anyone based on their nationality, but I feel like academic articles about the Holodomor coming from contemporary Ukraine would be biased.
anon i'm not a ukranian so you can trust me to be objective when i tell you that this is some fucked reasoning right there
>>146242
>this is some fucked reasoning right there
It's literally illegal for them to say anything else.
>It also makes it a criminal offence to deny the “criminal character of the communist totalitarian regime of 1917-1991 in Ukraine” in the media or elsewhere.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/21/ukraine-bans-soviet-symbols-criminalises-sympathy-for-communism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decommunization_in_Ukraine

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32267075

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Anonymous 12/01/2019 (Sun) 15:28:22 No. 145160 [Reply]
What's with all the 'big' leftist YouTubers not supporting leaving the EU?
85 posts and 13 images omitted.
>>146204
ok scientologist

if that's your logic you may well not go to the doctor cause what if he decides to murder you instead of cure you.

>>146205
more nonsense

>>146207
Well in non-shithole countries with decent state healthcare, it's not a big business so I'm not that concerned about it.

>>146227
really, have you seen that. I'd love to know where/when
>>146282
>>146282
>if that's your logic you may well not go to the doctor cause what if he decides to murder you instead of cure you
I would unironically be better off if I had never gone to a doctor.
>Well in non-shithole countries with decent state healthcare, it's not a big business
Like what, cuba? Just because it is not as extreme as in the us does not mean that it's not big business and that there are no incentives to harm patients.
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>>146282
>you may well not go to the doctor cause what if he decides to murder you instead of
doctors kill people all of the time you ignoramus. especially concerning 'abstract' topics such as one's gender, one should be wary of a doctor's reliability in this field. The only thing I trust most doctors with is writing my prescription for cough medicine tbh.

>more nonsense
<la la la I'm a liberal and I won't admit it

> it's not a big business so I'm not that concerned about it
but is it profitable? you're not asking the correct question if you think that the size of the business is the only relevant factor in whether 'transgender' individuals are being exploited or not.
>I'd love to know where/when
believe me, there's plenty of that deranged shit going on
>>146131
>ORGANISATION HAS TO COME AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL
kek muh socialism in one country

i swear you fucking tards never learn do you
>>146163
>people's sexuality/gender doesn't really affect their politics
Of course it does, just look at electoral outcomes by gender.

Devastating earthquake destroys the PMO base in Albania Anonymous 12/02/2019 (Mon) 12:43:20 No. 146089 [Reply]
http://balkanspost.com/article/854/earthquake-destroys-pmoi-ncr-base-albania

>While Albanian citizens living in Tirana and Durres, 30 km and 15 km from the epicenter respectively, had some luck to avoid disaster, the members of the People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran (PMOI) aka National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCR) had none. Stationed only 5 km from the epicenter of the main earthquake, as well as less than a kilometer away from the epicenter of powerful 5.3-magnitude aftershock, the residents of poorly built barracks of the Ashraf-3 base have experienced true horror.

>Not fair, we're razed, but Tehran is not

>We arrived in Albania three years ago and since then we have been preparing for a new life. We have been told that our dear Saudi and Israeli allies have invested a lot of money in our base and infrastructure, that we are safe here. We have been told that we have full support of the US government and all their allies, mister Bolton even promised us to celebrate together in Tehran soon. A year ago, we got new computer equipment and for months we worked hard, promoting human rights and democracy. Just ten days ago, we saw Iranian people on the streets and Tehran buildings ablaze, we thought our dreams had come true. But today, no revolution, no halls, no computers. Everything was lost!

>Yes, yes! How is it possible that an earthquake hits us directly? We were told that the earthquake epicenter was very, very close to our base, that there had been no such strong earthquake for decades! Is it a coincidence that it strikes precisely in the early morning hours when all comrades are at the base, inside the barracks? Someone obviously planned to cause as many casualties as possible! How is it possible that an earthquake strikes us just five days after the suppression of our revolution inside Iran? This is pure revenge! I'm sure that Iranian fingerprints exist. In fact, the Albanian police already announced that they had uncovered Iranian agents who were planning attacks against us, just a month ago. Maybe their agents buried and activated powerful bombs, maybe they use high frequencies via satellites to provoke earthquakes, I read that it's possible. Iran should not posses such advanced technology, I hope our brother Trump will increase sanctions against their research networks, or respond by force
>>146089
>inb4 "how can you support Islamic Republic over communists!!!11"
The PMOI are not communist and explicitly declare their support for liberal capitalism in their manifesto. They have a weird cult surrounding their leader who did shit like ordering everyone in the organization to dissolve their marriages so he could add the women to his personal harem. USA and EU openly back them and are working on putting them in power.
They also have barely any support in Iran even from those who oppose the Islamic Republic mostly because they supported Saddam in Iran-Iraq war.
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The Assad curse strikes again
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>>146089
Tectonic weapons are not realistic.

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Thoughts on Novara media Anonymous 12/02/2019 (Mon) 11:28:11 No. 146035 [Reply]
Thoughs on Novara as an org
Thoughs on Aaron Bastani
Thoughs on Ash Sarkah
Thoughts on rest of the crew?
4 posts omitted.
>>146048
Any intresting gossip your aware of for these lot>
>>146132
>Any intresting gossip your aware of for these lot
yes a couple of weeks ago Ash Sarkar blamed her
<hectic schedule
for not doing the weekly news comment, as per list--
https://novaramedia.us6.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=3983822d8f&id=5a2efe9027
But she it was really because she was hungover from watching the football in the pub.
>>146191 (me)
She talks dirty, as well.
https://youtu.be/8h8_e8o6YRc
Why is this bumplocked?
I don't understand the hate Bastani gets. I remember seeing leftists freak out, and trying to discredit him, over him saying capitalism has had it's uses (though it should've been stopped a long time ago).
Which is simply an idea Marx put forward - even in the Communist manifesto - but all of these leftists didn't pick up on it.

Bastani was also very pro-leaving the EU. He chickened out at the last moment but at least he knew why it's important to leave.
Novara also gets some good guests - I quite like Grace Blakeley.
Just Aaron Bastani + Michael Walker are the best podcasts because they have good chemistry and Aaron is quite funny. Michael's pretend radio voice gets a bit grating sometimes. Also all of them were completely spineless when it came to the antisemitism smears and have seemingly become more and more pro-remain without outright saying it (the momentum wanker they had on recently peddling the brexit is solely because of racism shit and that he loves the EU while pretending he was a socialist was too much to bare).

I wish we had a secular talk format show for UK politics.

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Why is communism pushed by fringe weirdos these days? Anonymous 12/02/2019 (Mon) 07:00:15 No. 145888 [Reply]
Back in the day of early USSR you had real working class men from all over the world rallying to take back the ownership of their own labor. Now, all you have left is 20 year old college kids and homosexuals who've never done manual labor in their lives, perhaps they work at Wendy's, ranting about the flaws of capitalism. This and the fact the people who've taken over these ideas put their own pronouns on their Twitter profile and rant about "cis white men" are exactly the reason why no normal person is ever going to join the movement.
33 posts and 3 images omitted.
>>146067
doesn't mass migration increase the rate of profit?
>>146196
Only in first world countries, it shrinks it in third world countries, and overall has a zero sum effect.
>>145919

I see my Bernie stickers in the average warehouse employee parking lot than Trump ones. This narrative doesn't hold up, considering the actually organized labor aristocracy bureaucracy supports like Biden.
>>146050


This is the sort workerist entryist nonsense fascists love, where they take the worst shitlib view of the white working class as being retarded reactionary Neanderthals and flip it to where it's a good thing. And dumb socdems eat it up.
>>146018
A thread asking "how come leftists are bad and not good and yucky" definitely glows.

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cybersyn book Anonymous 12/02/2019 (Mon) 03:26:33 No. 145759 [Reply]
Has anyone read this? is it good ? is it liberal or commiepilled?
Haven't read it but i have heard it's a piece of the most advanced form of socialist theory out there along Dickblast's works.
>>145762
>advanced
Ha, relative to Lenin perhaps. The book is entirely historical.
>>145973
>>145762
This is a history book written by a modern academic about the history of cybersyn, not the theory one written by beer himself. She interviews him for the book though

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What is fascism and how is it fought? Anonymous 12/02/2019 (Mon) 00:26:21 No. 145643 [Reply]
I grew up working class in burgerstan and took interest in communism a few years before the culture wars of the 2010's kicked off. Back then, the only way rural people ever gained exposure to far-left ideas was either through family, online forums or the occasional trip to larger cities. The notion that America would ever have a social democratic movement was laughable, much less anything revolutionary.

In these small insular circles there were attempts to warn against the dangers of fascism. The single work I recall getting the most circulation was Lawrence Britt's 14 Characteristics of Fascism
(https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html).

In hindsight it was a very stupid explanation--streamlined and full of vague platitudes which only resonated with teens like myself who liked jerking off to riot porn courtesy of the G20 summit every year. It has however gained some popularity again in recent years among #resistance fools who can't figure out how Trump happened.

I offer this preamble because it seems among many well-intentioned youth there is no firm understanding of fascism's history, doctrines or its appeal to the alienated. They see it as a moral failure and "something not to be understood or debated".

This approach has been disastrous. Angela Nagle rightly argued in Kill All Normies that it has given the far-right the sense of subversiveness they desperately need in order to attract followers. Dimitrov recognized even in 1935 that fascism is the result of the ruling class growing insecure, decadent and needing to reassert its position at the top of the pyramid (https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm#s5).

I routinely urge any communist to actually read into guys like Gentile or Evola or Mussolini, the Strasser bros or Hitler in order to fully understand what it is they are opposing. Their ideas are already out there. To think they should not be refuted in public will only increase their appeal.

Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti also deserves an honorable mention here as it is among the only leftist works of history that fully articulates how all fascist rhetoric about identity has always been to conceal class motives.

What do you say /leftypol/? Is it really enough to just praise every nazi puncher and egg tosser who gets 5 seconds of fame for "direct action" or should we be more strategic and historically informed in waging this conflict?
14 posts and 3 images omitted.
>>145776
>Georgi Dimitrov - The Fascist Offensive and the Tasks of the Communist International in the Struggle of the Working Class against Fascism
>R. Palme Dutt - Fascism and Social Revolution
>Palmiro Togliatti - Lectures on Fascism
>>145790
these aren't the classics
>>145794
Shut up
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>>145782
>That’ll be very bad for us, isn’t it? What’s to say police will not either aid or completely ignore fascist violence against workers like they did in 1920s Italy.
Precisely. One recent example from the US:
https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2019/02/14/texts-between-portland-police-and-patriot-prayer-ringleader-joey-gibson-show-warm-exchange/

I just whipped up a graphic with a text from the Woodley book. Kind of a public advisory to teach people how this works.

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