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Are wage workers in non-productive sectors proletarians? Anonymous 07/06/2020 (Mon) 16:04:40 No. 670620 [Reply] [Last]
Been watching some Moishe Postone lectures on youtube and part of his thesis is that the traditional Marxist idea that the working class will grow indefinitely needs to be left behind, because of capitalism's tendency for technological change means machine-labour replaces human labour. I'm also thinking of Cockshott's video on Marx's reproduction schemes from Capital vol. 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6jM8yhzSmA There he shows that workers in the "luxuries" sector are not exploited; only workers in the first 2 sectors produce value so only they are producing surplus-value and being exploited. So are workers in non-productive/luxury sectors not proletarians? since they're not producing value and not being exploited? I can understand this applying to like the PMC class: salaried office workers who just manage production processes. But what about, say, the guys in the factors that make fidget spinners? - they're producing a commodity but it's a luxury commodity in a non-productive sector.
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>>672053 >perhaps he was overconfident that it would not lead to a true counterrevolution. doesn't matter if he understood exactly how dangerous it was. it's the curse of communist revolutions: while capitalist states remain strong, you will always be faced with choosing between horrible and worse options. war communism or white terror? ukrainian famine or nazi terror? remaining stagnant and weak and waiting for the capitalists to come and enslave your people, or inviting them in or yourself so you can have some influence over the process and use it to grow your power? >do you mean in terms of good guys as 'new-anti-colonialists', in response to the new colonialism, in this new dialectical unfolding? i'm a different anon so i can't speak for what the other one meant. but it seems pretty clear here that while there were partial victories in the past, capital is now so well organized globally that there is no longer anything to be won through separate anti-colonial and working class movements. we won't win another socdem golden era in the imperial core. nationalist alliances between 3rd world bourgeois and proletariat have already achieved everything they were ever going to achieve: nominal autonomy and the immediate selling out of the proletariat by a weak local bourgeois content to be given a cut in an economy run for the benefit of the global imperialist bourgeois. it's workers of the world or gtfo.
>>670620 I'd wager that we are dealing with a lot of abstractions when talking capitalism and marxian anylsis. in this sense, EVERY worker is spending, on average, generalized over the whole economy, part of his workday in a non-productive way. just because half the population is women does not mean you as a person must be half a women half a man. as for the first question: infinity is an abstract concept which the human mind can't fathom in the first place. if a function grows infinitly, what is infinity *0.5? is there half an infinity? assuming that half an infinity is infinite as well, so is any fraction of it. thus, however small the fraction of required human labour of the indefinitely required labour is, as long as the required labour grows indefenitely so does the required human labour, resulting in indefinite growth of the working class. stagnating growth of the working class then basically falsifies capitalisms underlying assumption of indefinite growth.
>>672308 >infinity is an abstract concept which the human mind can't fathom in the first place. then how did you just use it in an example 😐
>>672122 >every drop of blood the capitalist can't suck out of the worker is an inefficiency in capitalism. all production that goes to reproducing the working class is an inefficiency, because surplus is all that matters. Sure, but that's not quite what I'm getting at. Looking at this as an issue of value production, rather than value extraction, under capitalism you need employees to work retail and marketing because commodities that don't get sold have effectively no value. Value under capitalism is still realized in a marketplace and thus you have to dedicate resources towards being effective in the market. It adds layers of inefficiency that can readily be stripped away under socialism, as we don't need marketeers in socialism, but if you didn't have them under capitalism, the production line wouldn't be producing realized value.
>>672308 > infinity is an abstract concept which the human mind can't fathom in the first place. >if a function grows infinitly, what is infinity *0.5? is there half an infinity? Infinity is a concept that you can start to wrap your mind around. It's just not easy and leads to very unintuitive results until you're comfortable with the concept. Infinity divided by 2 is still infinity.

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Anonymous 07/05/2020 (Sun) 11:34:43 No. 667902 [Reply] [Last]
What are the major differences between Third World countries and First World countries in terms of waging revolution? Do you guys think incoming automation and losing the dollar hegemony to China will result in a revolutionary USA? How should we approach it? Will there be an Urban front and a Guerrilla front? What are the classes in the USA and how should we organize them?
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No such thing as "first world" and "third world", it's nonsense invented by Deng to justify collaboration with the USA.
>>671296 Might as well say there’s no such thing as imperialism while you’re at it
>>671309 Imperialism has a very clear Marxist definition and its theory accurately describes the phenomenon.
>>671319 Tbh most people that say “Third World” just mean the colonized/neocolonized countries
>>671328 Perhaps, but in the ideological sense that Maoists/Dengists use it, they put China (not a colony under the PRC) with Africa and India.

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The Russian Civil War 07/03/2020 (Fri) 21:47:27 No. 664644 [Reply] [Last]
If the Whites won, would they have been able to industrialize and advance Russia the same way the Bolsheviks did and better handle the problems the country faced, or were they too splintered to be effective and would have collapsed within months of victory? During WW2 I think they would have immediately either joined or capitulated to the Nazis, too.
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>>673013 >Of course, there were actually competent Czars and Ministers before Nicky who TRIED sensible reforms. Yeah but Nicky wasn't one of them. Even the most basic shit was like pulling teeth with him. Remember that it took the 1905 revolution for him to sign off on a parliament, and he immediately worked to undermine it at every turn.
>>672784 why else would they be using the white army flag?
What would you think would have happened to the broader socialist/workers movements without an USSR? Without the threat of the USSR pushing the capitalist to make social democratic concessions do you think they would have radicalized more? Would communist china still succed and maybe take the spot of the USSR? Or do you think the socialists movements would have just been crushed and we would have been in a even worst spot that we are now?
>>672767 >Tzar keeps reforming the system The reason the system collapsed was precisely because Nicholas did nont of this >institutes constitutional monarchy What is 1905? What is the October Manitfesto? A constitutional monarch was set up but it failed because Nicholas rolled it back over the following decade the rest of your bullshit is hypothetical larp
The Whites were almost entirely propped by Britain/America/France/Japan. They had no cohesive ideology, and when German fascism or some similar movement rose after Versailles, Russia would've been destroyed and carved up, assuming it wasn't already. Modern US imperialists like Brzezinski dream of carving up Russia, Russia probably would've ended up a colony of the Western Allies and Japan.

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kuomintang Anonymous 07/07/2020 (Tue) 13:24:37 No. 672445 [Reply] [Last]
what went wrong ?
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>>672847 If Dengoids and "anybody but the USA" types were transported back to 1930 they would 100% insist that Japan was "a based anti-imperialist power".
>>672847 Same thing is happening with China today.
>>672880 ok schizo
>>672847 >Subhas Chandra Bose seeking help from the Japanese and the Germans for an Indian liberation army for example That's a little different because Bose was a legit communist and he went to the Soviets for help first and got shot down.
>>672847 Great sarcasm!

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Lefty Org General - /lfg/ CPUSA Anon 06/24/2020 (Wed) 07:47:42 No. 636141 [Reply] [Last]
So I made a CPUSA thread in the past, and I saw we have a FRSO thread on here. I'm pretty sure, also, that the IWW has made some kinda presence on /leftypol/ To avoid the bloat of different (usually American) based parties all making their own threads, I'd figure it'd be for the best to have a general thread for leftist organizations to inform people of general goings on, to recruit, and collaborate on shared projects. Organization Sites >CPUSA http://www.cpusa.org/ >FRSO https://frso.org/ >PSL https://www.pslweb.org/ >IWW https://iww.org/

Message too long. Click here to view full text.

Edited last time by zulveta on 06/24/2020 (Wed) 19:34:35.
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>>671175 >>671261 >>672181 Got permission to share some of the report with y'all. Took the liberty of highlighting the parts that I think you guys would particularly find interesting.
>>673038 Are you allowed to discuss anything that is shown here? Does this mean that the CPUSA will no longer post shit on their news media about how they need an "anti-monopolist front" with the Dems to defeat Trump? What is meant by "internal organization"? Thanks for the update, I guess.
>>673038 >tfw “zoomers” has reached formal vocabulary now
>>671025 Well I'll be damned. I take back what I said. That's a cool-looking cover. I like how they use that burnt orange color.
>>673103 By internal organization, it's referring to the party itself. And as far as our news being about a popular front to defeat Trump, it's less that we're going to say "it doesn't matter who wins" because our party does contain members who've had direct experience with the worst impulses of the Trump admin, so much as it's more a return to focus on recruitment and agitprop. IIRC we're also working on constructing unemployment councils too. >>673133 Funny enough, the older comrades in our party have embraced the term wholeheartedly. >>673165 So do I, it's real nice looking.

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How to fight liberal sociology Anonymous 06/25/2020 (Thu) 08:55:09 No. 639829 [Reply] [Last]
I keep seeing liberal sociology snaking its way into left discourse, and it absolutely must be combatted. It's the "false friend" of social theory, meant to give voice to real issues and real suffering, but only as a means of obfuscating how our society actually functions and hampering those movements that let this trojan horse theory in. I wanted to take a look at them, not as "idpol", but simply as theories. All liberal sociology must be combatted, as with all liberalism itself, but two concepts have really managed to embed themselves into the discourse, and unfortunately your radlib types will defend them to the death and insinuate that any criticism is crypto-fascist heresy. Intersectionality is often used as a term interchangeable with "inclusiveness" or "solidarity", but the theory itself is a load of idealist nonsense. The idea is that there are various "oppressions" floating through the social space that can "intersect" compounding existing oppression and producing its own emergent properties. Which sounds nice at first, almost something approaching dialectics, but it serves mostly to combat the materialist conceptualization of society, specifically to transform material conditions, economics and class from the foundations around which society is organized to yet another intersection of abstract "oppressions". It's also demonstrably false. For instance, in the theory of intersectionality, a black woman should naturally be more oppressed than a black man, since she faces both the brunt of racism AND patriarchy. But history shows otherwise. While black women have no doubt faced horrible oppression, black men have regularly been lynched throughout at least American history, along with being poached by the police for slave labor in prisons, something black women aren't subjected to for the most part. Or, as another example, lesbians should have been historically more oppressed than gay men, facing both homophobia and patriarchy, and yet male homosexuality was almost always far more harshly punished than female homosexuality, which, in some placed and times, were almost treated with something akin to tolerance. And if intersectionality isn't able to accurately predict and explain real world oppression from history, what fucking good is it? It's good to considering multiple elements, and the inter-relations between them, but this is already done far more gracefully in dialectics. It's false consciousness that will invariable lead people to false conclusions about their socio-economic conditions. Privilege largely describes a real thing, the tendency for there to be implicit or clandestine preferences towards certain groups over others, but makes the critical error of elevating what is essentially not being discriminated against to the position of, well, "privilege". It gives the very real impression that not getting shot by the cops, not having the judicial system throw the book at you for minor infractions, social institutions working more or less as advertised and so on is some sort of luxury that is naturally in short supply, and this lack-of-discrimination has be be rationed out between people. Like the police have some extra-judicial killings quota and therefore the natural consequence of reducing police brutality against the black community is that they've got to start brutalizing whites. It sounds ridiculous to talk about out loud, but that's the direct implication of people who say that X or Y group are going to suffer in some way because they're going to "lose their privilege" after a oppressed group gets their justice. And I see that exact line of reasoning around A LOT and literally all it does is create a conflict out of thin air, basically for its own sake. With the recent protests, I've seen this utter bullshit rear its ugly head yet again, and I'm left wondering how we can even combat it, because while it's completely unhelpful nonsense, it's like crack to your cliquish, virtue-signaling radlib, who have way too much sway in our community.
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>>668544 Kewl ur jets, mah d00d. I'm saying the opposite here. By undermining race spooks and encouraging others to do so, you directly attack the only thing that sustains racism.
https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/669087.html#q669591 Are liberals on the fence about any issues at all? Can they be considered to be a potential ally or are they fascists at the end of the day? I've browsed this board long enough that I've heard every complaint about libs but I think the basic question of them being "for us or against us" still hasn't been answered.
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>>669606 just make a class analysis to find out whether or not people will back stab you
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>how to fight liberal sociology here's a simpler method
>>673148 >headshot >wool batting puffs out of long-mummified puppet >libs vote for it anyway

Workplace cucks Anonymous 07/04/2020 (Sat) 11:28:13 No. 665807 [Reply] [Last]
>Dude it’s so bullshit that our wage get lowered but the regional manager’s wage is still the same and the stock holders still get richer. <What do you expect? They obviously work harder than us. >Really? They work a hundred times harder than us? <Uh their job might not be physically hard, but mentally! Plus their work are more important anyway. >Most of their decisions are made based upon the work of people like us or analysts that only get slightly slightly higher pay than us. They practically do nothing. <You’re too much of a Bolshevik to get it that’s all. Are there any point arguing with these kinds of people? They genuinely believe that the porkies are superior than them somehow.
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Do not ever work in a poultry processing plant. It is the worst work ever, dirty, horrific, low paying and yet all the workers are utterly and completely class cucked. Even the black workers, who live in public housing and are generally dirt poor are like this. Why is the U.S.A. so horrible?
>>669058 t. Larper
>>669067 Vietnam and China are essentially red social democratic states. Things regarding social safety nets, welfare and state control for public services are much better. But since it’s still have a capitalist market and a porky class it will still have to bend to the global market. We also have the same push for “socialism by 2050”. The worst thing is the millennials that grew up during the height of “Doi Moi” in the 90s are extremely libertarian in nature, fully believing in the miracles of capitalism in Singapore, muh entrepreneurship and bootstrap memes. Most of my coworkers are this kind of cucks. Boomers are much more class conscious. >>669070 Taking from Singaporean anons, people in their country is much more delusional with the PAP than here. Vietnam is just basically China but with a more lax level of censorship.
>>669464 Boomer pride world wide

Castro was reckless druing the Missle Crisis Anonymous 07/07/2020 (Tue) 13:12:00 No. 672409 [Reply] [Last]
Why did Castro wanna do first strike during the Missle Crisis and make Cuba as martyr of global revolution? If anything, Nikita Khrushchev was more reasonable not starting reckless WW3.
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My old aunt said to me once that "Castro was a great man who did great for his people".
>>672409 >Franco Prussian War= Paris Commune >WW1= First wave of Socialist Revolutions >WW2= Expansion of Socialist system into Central Europe >Sino-Japanese War= Strengthens CCP from their almost extinct position in the Mountains to controlling Manchuria then taking over all of China >Vietnam War= Spread of revolutions in Asia Unironically, Socialists have always come out on top in wars as wars cause mass instability to the system and exposes the class contradictions of society. Fidel should have launched.
>>672409 Probably a mixture of hate, fear and not understanding that a decapitation strike on D.C would only prevent a wider, world-ending nuclear exchange in theory.
Castro only advocated nuclear strikes if the U.S. launched an invasion of Cuba, as they had done only a year earlier in 1961 (Bay of Pigs). He believed that if the U.S. invaded Cuba, it would lead to a scenario where the U.S. would strike the U.S.S.R. with nuclear weapons. And Castro was right, as the National Security Council was drawing up nuclear target lists of the U.S.S.R. the very same day the Castro-Khrushchev telegram was sent. Kennedy had also placed the nuclear forces (SAC) of the U.S. on DEFCON 2 the day prior to the telegram, the only known time in U.S. history. Hundreds of aircraft were ready to leave for Cuba with 15 minutes notice, aircraft were deployed to civilian airfields, nuclear-equipped B52’s were ordered to take off so bombs would be in the air if war began. The Americans believed the U.S.S.R. would not tolerate an invasion of Cuba, and U.S. military leaders believed the time left where the U.S. could win such a nuclear exchange with the U.S.S.R. was running out. Castro, literally, did nothing wrong. The sole reckless party were the U.S. imperialists. Yet we hear only this entirely fabricated narrative of Castro the cartoon supervillain who wanted to mindlessly and preemptively nuke the peace-loving Americans. I’ll let you extrapolate on why that is.

Market Socialism Anonymous 07/06/2020 (Mon) 22:44:22 No. 671492 [Reply] [Last]
I'm pretty bored during quarantine. I want to learn more about Market Socialism and what society would like look under it. Saw this article in catalyst by John Roemer (https://catalyst-journal.com/vol4/no1/market-socialism-renewed) but it is unfortunately pay walled. If anyone is able to get past it please tell me and post it. Other than that I'd be interested in any sort recommendations on the literature on Market Socialism. I'm also interested in stuff that radical social democrats in Europe tried to implement like the Meidner plan. So any suggestions related to that would be good too. >NOOOOOOO YOU CAN'T READ ABOUT MARKET SOCIALISM THAT IS AN OXYMORON!1!1 shut up, I want to read. I'll make my own judgment myself after I finish reading about it.
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A debate on market socialism and Cockshott's criticism of market socialism
I do think we should have a minor but heavilly regulated industry of cooperatives but the majority of living essential should be provided by an organized state
>>671730 This; c4ss inherited the market socialist tradition. Kevin Carson's work is especially important; I would avoid William Gillis if possible.
>>672656 sort of what cockshott proposes right?

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Anonymous 07/07/2020 (Tue) 12:38:47 No. 672335 [Reply] [Last]
>Capitalism was “racial” not because of some conspiracy to divide workers or justify slavery and dispossession, but because racialism had already permeated Western feudal society. The first European proletarians were racial subjects (Irish, Jews, Roma or Gypsies, Slavs, etc.) and they were victims of dispossession (enclosure), colonialism, and slavery within Europe. Is he right?
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>>672426 I’m talking even of the nobility though. Black characters appear here and there in medieval literature and typically speaking they’re good or bad guys depending on their faith, not their race.
>>672426 Medieval, maybe. By the late renaissance most people in at least maritime western Europe knew that black people existed. Shakespeare had a black character as the protagonist in one of his plays (as an admiral no less), it was NBD. This was 100 years before the British Empire would really get going and the role of black people in the popular imagination turned into the slave or noble savage archetype that dominated colonial literature.
>>672463 Even by Shakespeare's day the Atlantic slave trade was well under way, at least in Spanish and Portuguese colonies.
>>672502 The point being that slavery wasn't underway in the English speaking world - yet - and that change in economic circumstances printed itself onto the character of Othello over time. He was originally portrayed as Black (sometimes even by an actual black person not in blackface!) but began to be portrayed more often as Arab/North African into the 1700's and 1800's. When black actors started being cast as him again in the early 1900's it made this 300 year old play the edgiest shit ever. Just giving it as an example because IMO it's a very clear demonstration of a change in economic circumstances (Capitalist imperialism & industrial-scale slavery) begetting a change in culture to support itself (inventing the concept of 'racial supremacy')
>>672426 >being this historically illiterate Peasants could read. Their "illiteracy" was in the sense that they didn't know elite languages used by the nobles/church. We know this because many peasants wrote books and diaries and shared information through writing, including things like manuals for farming. They weren't particularly well-educated, but they had a general awareness of the world beyond the villages where they lived, including a very basic knowledge of foreign lands as a product of feudal warfare. You're not seriously suggesting that euro christians didn't know what the holy land was?


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