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/leftypol/ is a non-sectarian board for leftist discussion.

IRC: Rizon.net #bunkerchan
https://qchat.rizon.net/?channels=bunkerchan

Are MLs and Anarchists both working toward the same end? Anonymous 12/30/2019 (Mon) 03:47:37 No. 191414 [Reply] [Last]
Help a theorylet left-nat out here. Is anarcho-communism as practiced in Ukraine and Catalonia really the end result of the whole Marxist process? I know when Marxists refer to "the state", they are talking about the means through which one class oppresses another, and that it would wither away in a classless society, but does that also include the erosion of national identity, borders, or laws? also i know you guys are getting alot of threads on nationalism rn, but plz dont stirner-post me to the shadow realm, these spooks are my burden to bear.
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>>192339 >Work place democracy does not imply a need for markets You’re looking at the world in a vacuum. If we took capitalist society and simply gave ownership to the workers, it’s market socialism because commodity production has not been abolished. >>192339 Lenin wasn’t the first to theorize on socialism, though. In critique of the gotha programme marx clearly states that between capitalism and communism is a revolutionary transitional period in which the state can exist as nothing more than the dictatorship of the proletariat. > Namely, whether or not the end result aimed for by both Marxists & 'narchos is (regardless of disputes over praxis) the same. To that question, with an honest reading of Marx (and even Lenin/Stalin/Mao/etc.), I would say yes. Anarchists are unique though because of their extreme prejudice towards hierarchy. If MLs and Ancoms came together and understood that yes, democratic leadership is necessary, then we could live not as Anarchists or MLs but as communists. >>192339
>>191561 Looks like he said something wrong
all anarchists should be Kronstadted
>>192297 >So, the workers not only took part in production meetings to draw up production plans that produced goods for society, debated their managers... it still wasn't worked control? Just because the workers have some say in production does not mean it was directly under their control. Citizens have some amount of say in all liberal bourgeoise republics now, along with some measures to supposedly hold officials and politicians accountable, does that mean that modern day capitalist republics are actually dictatorships of the proletariat? >and directly elected them Your screenshot says they elected delegates to the production conference, not their direct managers. >It just seems to me you can't come to grips with the reality that worker control did exist in the USSR. These conferences were held ever six months, too. Maybe you didn't read the other screenshot? You're grasping at straws in trying to prove these lukewarm conferences were somehow the ultimate expression of worker power. All you've proved so far is that workers had some amount of voice in the USSR, not that they actually directly controlled things, because they didn't, the party did. >the workers elected their managers Proof? Your screenshot does not say they elected their managers. >and they took part in electing members of the party Only if they were members of the party, which was not a right. For most of the USSR's history party membership was less than 10% of the population, and at the beginning was less than 1%. >Then, you said - well - that definition doesn't matter. So, that means your definition doesn't matter either because we can arbitrarily decide what socialism is based on how we feel now I'm saying it's pointless to argue what is and isn't socialism when we have different definitions, so instead I'm arguing specific criteria, like worker-control. >showing that workers were able to directly elect managers at their workplace, they were recallable Haven't shown that. >and they took part in producing goods for society And US citizens take part in governing their country.

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News 1/13/20 News Anon 3.0 01/13/2020 (Mon) 22:06:23 No. 212097 [Reply] [Last]
Colombia foils attempt to assassinate ex-Farc leader Timochenko Colombian police say they have foiled an attempt to assassinate the former head of the now demobilised Farc rebels, Rodrigo Londoño Echeverri, better known as Timochenko. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-51086526 Cops arrest trade union's lawyer on the picket line AUNION is launching legal action against police after they arrested its lawyer and threatened striking workers on a picket line outside a university hospital in London today. https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/cops-arrest-trade-union-lawyer-on-the-picke-line Workers Remember Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht's Legacies The European left's largest conference Saturday began in Berlin paying tribute to the memory of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht, two communist revolutionaries killed by far-right paramilitaries on January 15, 1919. https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Workers-Remember-Rosa-Luxemburg-and-Karl-Liebknechts-Legacies-20200112-0002.html South African president vows to end widespread power cuts Ramaphosa said his government is working hard to restore the state power company, Eskom, to a stable provider of electricity to industry and residences. https://apnews.com/f81dedd518abcd469685fad28cefe335 Bolivia: Senate Approves Constitutional Guarantee Law

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>>212339 Many of Trump's supporters have no real politics of their own. As long he makes the libshits mad, he's done his job.
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>>212097 >Ocean temperatures hit record high as rate of heating accelerates We're fucking dead, aren't we?
>>213020 Dead? Nah Fucked? Yes
>>212341 Hey, we do that too (real football of course, not handegg).
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>>213020 Why don't we take the heat from the oceans and shoot it into space?

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Who Has Authority in the American State? Anonymous 01/11/2020 (Sat) 01:17:59 No. 208155 [Reply] [Last]
Found this interesting article that talks about the Marxist theory of the state https://palladiummag.com/2020/01/08/who-has-authority-in-the-american-state/ >The greatest theoretical understandings of the modern state have necessarily come in times of crisis, when its authority is being fundamentally questioned, when its power is most naked: Hobbes in the heels of the English Civil War, Lenin in the midst of the Russian Civil War, and Huntington in the breakout of the Cold War. More recently, there was Louis Althusser during the “crisis of Marxism”: that precarious moment for intellectual leftists when the USSR’s crimes and stagnation, as well as the rise of neoliberalism, forced them to revisit their theories of the state. But to get to Althusser, we need to understand the debates within intellectual Marxism that serve as background for his interpretation. .... >Louis Althusser, having lived through the Communist Party’s defense of De Gaulle from the threat of a coup in the Algiers crisis, the failed revolt of workers and students in 1968, and the slow disintegration of academic Marxism as a political force, would go on to craft perhaps the most elegant theory of the state in his later years. He took Lenin and Marx’s formulation, the state as “a special group of armed men” and turned it on its head in search of a solution to the theoretical crisis of Marxism. Rather than “special” referring to the opposite of “general” (as in a proletarian state in the style of the Paris Commune would be generally armed), Althusser took this to refer to the special nature of state authority. It acts distinctively and with a different ground for legitimacy than those forces which are formally in the private sphere. >But why does the state need authority? Why is an armed subgroup of society insufficient on its own to maintain a system? The answer is quite simple. The state, in order to maintain social control is interested in the relative, rather than absolute, maximization of its violence. >Theoretically, the civilian population—particularly those whose work ensures production—hold the power to grind society to a halt. The general strike, the mass revolt, the civil war—these are existential threats to the state. Therefore, it is not enough for the state to accumulate an overwhelming magnitude of violence. It must minimize the amount of violence of all other actors in society, including social classes—ultimately, even other sections of the class from which much of this “special group of armed men” are drawn. So, it has to convert its violence into legitimate authority. ... >Modern civil-military relations literature has uncovered a wonderful example of just how this threat of “the state of nature,” and thus the need to maintain political order, motivates the state, just as Althusser predicts. In many developing countries, where the risk of coups is great, precarious leaders will systematically make moves which would raise the risks of civil war—both in likelihood and cost—in the event of a coup. Why? Because there is nothing the military officers fear more than the specter of fratricide and the sudden self-destruction of the armed forces. But we can go a step further. This logic extends to the whole of the professional state, the officer corps, and the bureaucracy. >Both Marx and Foucault failed to grasp this, eager as they were to use the metaphor of civil war for class struggle and oppression in society. But here, Clausewitz won out: war is politics by other means, not the other way around. Civil war is precisely the breakdown of legitimate authority as an ideological power—the breakdown of law as a power above people in general. Such a collapse precipitates the rise of violence on the part of actors outside the state, and can threaten not only the elite classes but society as a whole. This ideology of legitimate authority is not some superficial byproduct of the state. It is the whole purpose of the state.

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>>208228 Forgot to tag>>208220
bump
Orange Man
>>208240 I did. even tho interesting i do not know what my key take away should be
>Who Has Authority in the American State? Haute bourgeoisie - military industrial complex and information capital.

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Éire/pol/ Anonymous 11/14/2019 (Thu) 11:27:52 No. 126351 [Reply] [Last]
Are there any Irish people on Lefty/pol/. Compared with /pol/ I don't see a massive presence of Irish people. I was thinking of starting an Éire/pol/ thread,but I won't bother if it's just going to die immediately
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>>201914 Nice one lads
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>>202081 well boys, we did it. Imperialism is no more.
>>201703 They made sure to shoot Connolly. Then DeValera made sure to integrate the Irish labour force into a predominantly English based economy. >“If you remove the English Army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle., unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts will be in vain. England will still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs.” ― James Connolly
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Taoiseach has confirmed the GE will be taking place Saturday 8th of February. Word of notice to any electoralfags who registered to vote in the last year: The register does not come into effect until the 15th of Feb. Therefore you will not be registered to vote by the time the GE comes. You will have to apply to the Supplementary Register if you want to vote on the 8th. The deadline to register on the SR is 14 days before the polling date, or, the 24th of January. More info on registration here: https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1216802428856782848 and here: https://www.vote.ie/register This is obviously a pretty transparent attempt by FG to suppress younger voters. Whatever, not like voting is ever gonna change the status quo in this country.
>>212907 quick note: by "in the last year", i meant from 15th February 2019. If you got in before the register came into effect, youre grand, but if you want to be sure, you can check the register here: http://www.checktheregister.ie/

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Praxis Guides Anonymous 01/13/2020 (Mon) 20:59:05 No. 211997 [Reply] [Last]
Does anyone have any advice or have any good resources on how to do effective praxis in the context of our post-modern consumer societies? I know that there is a lot of crossover with classic tactics for organization, agitation and such; I would just prefer to reframe said tactics for our current context and filter out any specifc methods for achieving class consciousness that don't currently apply to our material conditions.
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>>212256 I know, but that doesn't mean, that we shouldn't use them. Lenin also said, that communists should participate in bourgeois democracy. Not because it will solve everything, but we should use every platform to promote our thoughts.
>>211997 Another tip: We must promote this board. It's good to radicalize people.
>>211997 Gettting in here to troll the nazis http://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/239510900
>>212272 I'm surprised unions haven't tried doing that when there's a high likelihood of scabbing during a strike.
I think buying local or making your own goods should be the ideal, I want to control as much of the means of production that I need to survive as I can. Transport may become unreliable and being able to satisfy all my needs and most of my wants locally makes for a secure future. Buying overseas goods that could be produced locally is also wasteful , goods take fuel to transport and they can sometimes spoil in transit.

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Anonymous 01/14/2020 (Tue) 07:31:17 No. 212575 [Reply] [Last]
How do I talk to my co-workers about organizing against management? I know there's potential with at least a few of them but I don't really know how to approach the subject other than "Hey you want to organize a group to fuck with the management until they give us what we want?" I'm not super concerned about getting them to form a union atm, I figure that can wait until after we actually organize and start fighting, mainly I just want people to start thinking about resisting but I'm afraid of sounding too much like a troublemaker by talking about the subject. I already read the stuff the IWW has on their site, and I plan on going to an Organizing 101 training when I get the chance, but I'm not sure what to do in the meantime.
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>>212583 Watch out**
>>212583 So basically figure out one thing everyone wants from management and then go to the people who have potential to organize and ask if they'd be interested in working together to get x demand?
Tell them the good unionized workplace can get them
>>212575 Whoah..whoah..whoah!!! Hold your horses buckaroo! Training 101 is pretty rad, but the teachers experience will make or break it. When we would organize, we'd start with an analysis about the business. It's history, profit margin, market, size of its labor force, type of labor skilled/unskilled, precarious/stable etc. Is this a fight you can even win? A good thing about the iww, is that if you have an active branch, you can "salt" into a fight already underway. Thats a lot easier than starting something new, especially if you're new and motivated. How long have you worked there? Back when I was a wobblie we had a three month rule of thumb. You need to be respected by your fellow workers before all else. Are you? Are you friends with everyone, or at least on good terms with everyone(almost)? You need to get on positive terms with the people. If your not seen as a hard worker, and/or you just started, and you agit-prop it's not going to carry any weight. It's not a good look and It's something we always cautioned against. Before you do anything, you want to do social mapping. you want to figure out as much as you can about the work force. Is someone married, do they have kids, are they up to their ass in debt, what are their relations to other coworkers, are they prejudiced, Are they friends with management, related/married to management(that is really important, if someone's management cucked in any way, find out early). I'm super talkative, so for me it's just building bridges with other people. Opportunities present themselves to raise political issues, and the tact of it all was in figuring out where the other person was.coming from and what they were concerned by. But that's how you start agitating, you don't want to overdo it, and you can't force the issue subjectively, there has to be objective conditions. Here's an easy point, if youre on good terms with someone, and you can tell theyre not management cucked, and the bosses fucked up and did some bullshit, call it out, especially if they were affected by it but as an example, "man, that was bullshit, they kept me late an extra hour when I needed to go and get a hand job after work, they ever pull that shit on you?"

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>>212637 >Back when I was a wobblie we had a three month rule of thumb. So why aren’t you now?

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Anonymous 12/31/2019 (Tue) 05:42:49 No. 192246 [Reply] [Last]
>Nestor Makhno leads the Russian revolution instead of Lenin >The black army defeats the white army in the following civil war >The Russian empire dissolves into a vast anarcho-communist society within 5 years >Anarchism spreads rapidly >The last remaining nation-state(Argentina) falls to anarchy in 1973
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>>192280 Warlordism will inevitably mutate into fascism or a monarchy
>>194348 >implying anarchists wouldn't immediately declare war on everyone and accelerate the fall of socialism
>>212579 It's inevitable as the Hegelian dialectic implies
>>192246 Masturbation fantasy aside, Makhno provided basically zero leadership structure, taking all positions of power (counterintelligence, army, several peasant and city positions) for himself, chairing more than six boards and, contrary to popular anarchist myths, offering a less democratic and more centralized organization than the Bolshevik party. But it should be understood that this was due to the obvious circumstances of his area (mostly illiterate peasants, a very few adventurist intellectuals, little connection to workers). To think that with such an organizational structurlessness he could have governed the whole of Russia is beyond ridiculous.
>>212628 This. The best case scenario would just have the Bolsheviks give him and his allies a spot in the government of The Ukrainian SSR.

Anonymous 12/14/2019 (Sat) 21:18:53 No. 161588 [Reply] [Last]
What do you guys think about "self help" and people's affinity towards it?
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>>211403 Because a part of burgerstan domestic propaganda is that all the porkies are "self-made" with the implication of rags-to-riches narratives which would be torn apart if the definition of "self-made" was significantly less than than that.
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It exists for the same reason working class conservatism exists, or why liberals cling to the myth of "meritocracy". If you're at the bottom, is it comforting to think that escape is possible if only you work hard enough, or are clever enough. Nobody actually wants to face the IRL blackpill which is your life is shit because the world took a dump on you. It is physically and mentally harder to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps", but it is spiritually harder to face the fact you're a slave to a master class.
>>210094 He’s the prominent reason nasa doesn’t get any funding.
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>>211403 We could endlessly mock "self-made" by replying that no your parents made you. Because linguistically "self-made" is the self looping back on itself. It's basically claiming to be a infinite god (those tend to be the cause of their own existence)
It's basically "fake it till you make it" for poor people who still haven't gotten the message.

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Socialist Aesthetics Anonymous 12/10/2019 (Tue) 22:13:38 No. 154337 [Reply] [Last]
ITT: nice-looking socialist propaganda posters, art, photos, videos...
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>what if Norman Rockwell painted Lenin instead of nuclear families
>>210588 >ywn have a Soviet alarm clock that jacks you off every morning Why even live bros. >>211508 >socialist realism = Norman Rockwell How about reading the thread first before spouting nonsense.
>>211523 >ywn have a Soviet alarm clock that jacks you off every morning Oh what could've been.
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>>211508 Nuclear take.

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Anonymous 01/04/2020 (Sat) 22:13:09 No. 197833 [Reply] [Last]
What exactly stops small, anarchist communes from growing beyond such a tiny size?
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>>210997 >The party doesn't know better than the workers. Captialism and the market mainly exists due to the state and without the state a non-market economy would likely be created.
>>197833 State repression.
>>210997 you can either have central planning or you can have competition. You can have central planning without bullying people. You cannot have competition without bullying people. The you can make a central planner responsive to democratic input. The state grew out of the capitalism, out of the need to mediated between different factions of the bourgeoisie, and of course different classes. if you abolish the state without abolishing capitalism, you'll just end up recreating a state, because all the factors that created states still exist. Right now states defend the interests of the big bourgeoisie, but states can also be made to defend the interests of the workers. There's also the 20th century where all the left projects that wanted to try out different economic models had to build powerful states because that was the only institution that could withstand the attacks of capital. If you try to build up something from the bottom, you can forget doing this in a de-central manor, this has been tried with various decentralised online stuff, as soon as something got traction "investors" descended upon it like a swarm of Piranhas, and if they couldn't buy it they went about destroying it with a scorched earth policy. If you want a decentralised anything you need to put the death penalty on attempts of bribery, because everything else has been tried and it failed. Picture the comical archetypal American who growls at you, "I'll shoot you if to tress-pass on my lawn", you want that attitude toward big-finances trying to buy out people trying to build something new. If you want de-central, your rate of producing new structures has to be higher than the rate capital buy it out, the only why to achieve this is making it unbelievably unappealing to try to buy out new projects, hence the proposed cowboy method, If you can find a structure that perpetually erodes wealth-concentrations, that might work too, but so far wealth got decentralised by 2 ways, bombs falling out of the sky, or heavy handed state action. Consider that you can make the state defend the interests of the workers, at least for a while. The Soviet example has shown that a state can do both act in defence of worker interests and withstand the deepest and darkest counter-revolution, but can do this only temporarily, because it will get eroded from the inside. As far as theory goes we have Cockshott's proposal of using a direct democracy with a leadership that is chosen by lottery from a representative sample from the population, and periodically reshuffled. With this arrangement it's very unlikely that opportunists would be able to capture power to sell out all of society for personal gain. This still requires defending an institution for administering planning and democratic-polling against corruption and subversion, but that attacks surface is much smaller, and if policy making is subjected to scientific rigueur, it's very unlikely that anybody will be able to make special interest loop-holes stick. The question here is about structural resilience and none of the decentralised proposals do well in this, they all require large amounts of people to uphold the de-central nature of the system by principle and personal sacrifice, that is not a reasonable strategy.

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>>211258 >he believes in anarchism without central planning
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>>212493 >he believes in anarchism

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