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/leftypol/ is a non-sectarian board for leftist discussion. Join the Matrix: https://matrix.to/#/+leftychat:matrix.org Visit the Booru: https://lefty.booru.org/

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Lower-stage communism Anonymous 09/21/2020 (Mon) 03:15:10 No. 887222 [Reply] [Last]
>What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges. Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society – after the deductions have been made – exactly what he gives to it. What he has given to it is his individual quantum of labor. For example, the social working day consists of the sum of the individual hours of work; the individual labor time of the individual producer is the part of the social working day contributed by him, his share in it. He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost. The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another. Where has this been achieved? Are all of the successes from the called "socialist" states been a product of a mode of production that isn't socialist? Was there still wage labour? Was there still profit? Was there still generalized commodity production? Was money functioning as labour vouchers?
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>>887270 Didn't Marx talk about piece work being just wage labour? Wasn't labour power still a commodity?
>>887292 >Didn't Marx talk about piece work being just wage labour? What do you mean by piece work? Most professions had salaries in the USSR. They were negotiated between the unions and the Gosplan for entire industries. >Wasn't labour power still a commodity? In what way? There was no capitalist or firm that hired and fired workers as variable capital.
>>887222 >Where has this been achieved? No where yet. >Are all of the successes from the called "socialist" states been a product of a mode of production that isn't socialist? Not one of the 20th century socialist countries achieved the lower phase of communism. Most of them started in semi feudal conditions. >Was there still wage labour? Yes, albeit in a system with manipulated prices. Workers often had more money than possible to spend due to things like low rent and the non-availability of certain consumer goods. >Was there still profit? Yes, individual enterprises kept track of profitability. Profit at the enterprise level wasn't so important, though, since what really mattered was long-term profitability at a national level. As long as the USSR was "profitable" on the macro scale, it could subsidize unprofitable industries and provide things like low-cost housing. >Was there still generalized commodity production? Yes, but the system was heavily regulated and prices were often manipulated. >Was money functioning as labour vouchers? No. If you want an explanation of how the USSR actually functioned, read this: https://web.archive.org/web/20190804050647/https://8ch.net/marxism/statecap.html
>>887283 It's not that I think the proletariat couldn't be coordinated on a necessary scale, I think that without the proletariat of the western European and American varieties would have to be coordinated on such a scale and that would take material and social conditions that won't occur in our lifetime and may not ever occur. They definitely won't happen in time for climate disaster, but maybe that will be what sets things in motion. Depending on the scale, to much instability could just take us backwards.
>>887311 >What do you mean by piece work? Like the worker is paid by the quantity of product rather than by labour-time. >In what way? The state ran enterprises saw labour as a commodity?

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How is socialism feasible despite America being so split up and individualist? Anonymous 09/17/2020 (Thu) 00:53:28 No. 874509 [Reply] [Last]
Seriously, we have no communities, maybe at best our workplace/school, gym, Church, political party, etc. but I don't even know my neighbors. How would socialist organisation be possible when people are just so hostile towards groups? And then, don't even start on how absurdly individualist we are. Everyone sees themselves as the most important thing to walk the Earth, we can see this with Covid perfectly. Seriously, how is it possible?
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It may be possible for certain states to become socialist after a potential balkanization. Of the cities I have experience with, I think that Chicago and San Francisco both have the potential to control small socialist states.
>>886910 This, and balkanization is all but inevitable.
>>874586 >Unless you figure out how to unionize all the service industry or something. https://notesfrombelow.org/article/an-introduction-to-wobbly https://wobbly.app/ https://github.com/Wobbly-App
>>874509 I've found that it's incredibly easy to breadpill people if you just explain what marxism and socialism are without calling them by their actual names (or coating it in Christian/Patriotic wording for the fundies) and that working class Americans are fairly similar to us on economic issues even if their only idea of praxis is voting

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Doesn't revisionism being a threat mean that something is very fundamentally flawed? Anonymous 09/21/2020 (Mon) 00:09:47 No. 886856 [Reply] [Last]
If your system is even capable of being dismantled by a handful of people at the head of it, doesn't that mean your system is fundamentally flawed in the first place? Doesn't the simple existence of the constant threat of "revisionism" prove at least some of the anarchist criticisms of the state?
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>ideas alone can overpower power interests
I welcome aspie Hoxhaist poster. We have an excess of other MLs, I like the mix up.
>>886909 I don't get it. Was the ussr even on the road to socialism if they concentrated all the power in a federal rather than local government? What about cuba or north korea have they experimented with giving provinced complete power to self-govern? It seems that some level of decentralization is needed to have DotP (as per the vid) but in practice this is never done.
>>887001 it doesn’t. centralization is necessary. anyone who says otherwise is historically illiterate
>>887216 can I get marx as a source on this?

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Is it actual socialism or is it not? Anonymous 09/18/2020 (Fri) 21:39:50 No. 880000 [Reply] [Last]
Why cant you guys figure out the actual definition of socialism? I am getting really conflicted because left and right people are saying "NOOO NOT REAL SOCIALISM!!1111!!111!! THE STATE IS THE MONOPOLY NOW INSTEAD OF THE CAPITALISTS" while others are saying "NOOOOOO THAT IS REAL SOCIALISM" Please guys help me out! Lets say the state owns all of the industries and utilities and the workers controls the state via the government and everyone gets a share of the workplace through a social wealth fund.... wouldn't that be socialism? What's wrong with worker coops? If worker coops controls the entire economy through every sector wouldn't that also be socialism? So what is it /leftypol/? Am I a counter-revolutionary vaushite for saying worker coops are a realistic goal? Please don't scold me.
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Socialism is State command and control of the means of production.
>>882706 This is wrong though because by "the state" Marx ment a system of governance in which one class dominates another, not, the state as we understand it today "a centralized monopoly in the threat of violence." Arguably Marx was intentionally nebulous in this respect because both decentralized syndicates, counsels, what have you can fall under this category as well as the more formal definition above. The thing is, this is a question we must ask ourselves, as workers; "Which of these forms of organization is more liberating for us as working people?" Historically speaking, the answer is obvious.
>>882489 So what then? We'll just switch to distributing goods freely and promise real hard to act cool?
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>>887161 Dude, they were pretty explicitly communist and they were in charge.

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On the NEET question Anonymous 09/13/2020 (Sun) 18:33:01 No. 865230 [Reply] [Last]
We need to deal with this anti-work attitude some folks on here have. A lot of you simply want communism because you don't want to work. This is a fundamentally anti-proletarian, wrongheaded, bad, cringe way of thinking. Humans have been working since their creation. Work is part of who we are. Idleness causes depression, agrarian socialism is better than what you are advocating ffs.
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>>865230 My wife and kids in the pic btw
>>879726 she has horrendous trigger discipline my guy
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"Private property as private property, as wealth, is compelled to maintain itself, and thereby its opposite, the proletariat, in existence. That is the positive side of the antithesis, self-satisfied private property. The proletariat, on the contrary, is compelled as proletariat to abolish itself and thereby its opposite, private property, which determines its existence, and which makes it proletariat. It is the negative side of the antithesis, its restlessness within its very self, dissolved and self-dissolving private property." Don't glorify being a worker. We strive to abolish the working class as a class. Communism looks forward to the destruction of systems of oppression, not merely to their inversion.

Naxal Insurgency in india Anonymous 09/20/2020 (Sun) 23:55:16 No. 886837 [Reply] [Last]
Im conflicted, are these guys based? Or are they just like bandits?
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>>886842 Yeah, so im looking for contemporary maoist groups to use as examples of communism in the 21st century. I used to think that the shining path was based, but then i realized that its a crazy cult.
>>886837 Based. If you haven't already watched it I suggest Paul Morrin's video about socialism in India https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HFXsNqW_uk&t=126s you can find a timestamp in the comment section for when they start talking about the Naxal's.
>>887015 I havent seen it thank you!!
>>886837 >are these guys based? Or are they just like bandits? Is there a contradiction I can't see?
>>886865 >I used to think that the shining path was based no you didn't

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Polisario Front Anonymous 09/20/2020 (Sun) 00:45:19 No. 883969 [Reply] [Last]
Why is no one talking about this? Are they in any way related to Baathism? Should socialists support them? Some context: Western Sahara is being occupied by the Kingdom of Morocco and the Polisario Front wants to liberate it.
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Half of their territory (the side facing the Atlantic Ocean) is controlled by the Kingdom of Morocco which built a wall to keep them out
>>884407 They are left-nationalists and so was the ruling party in Algeria
>>883969 >>885240 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_Wall >The barrier minebelt that runs along the structure is thought to be the longest continuous minefield in the world.[6] Military bases, artillery posts and airfields dot the Moroccan-controlled side of the wall at regular intervals, and radar masts and other electronic surveillance equipment scan the areas in front of it. >The fortifications were progressively built by Moroccan forces starting in 1980, with help from South African, South Korean and Israeli advisors and formally ending on 16 April 1987. lol they needed 3 anti-communist client states of the US to build their wall
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>>884427 >anti-communist Come again?
>>885574 You can be anti-communist inside your country while at the same time allying with foreign communists. Just look at Iran.

Poor people have the right to help themselves. Anonymous 09/20/2020 (Sun) 20:51:59 No. 886132 [Reply] [Last]
I'm not a communist, but I do agree with the main Marxist axiom: we must kill the rich and seize their capital for ourselves. Poor people have the right to help themselves. Theft/looting is morally justified. Generally poor people are the victims of the society, which left them poor. So theft is self defense.
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>>886555 Maybe apply critical thinking bro?
>>886132 based and kahinapilled
>>886132 The slave can never steal from the slave owner. He can only ever decide to stop letting the slave owner in on what he has produced. There is no justice or injustice to this act, there is only degrees of effectiveness. OP is based and people telling him that he's wrong are indeed sophists. Reading is to reinforce the understanding of this simple truth and how to go about achieving it in the most effective manner. Take the world back from the rich.
>>886847 Sophists? He is wrong though. He doesn't understand the scientific analysis of marxism. He has his heart in a right place, but not his mind. Let's break this down. >the main Marxist axiom: we must kill the rich and seize their capital for ourselves. Wrong! Seizing their 'capital' is worthless. If we are using jargons we should 'seize the means of production'. The capital is worthless, since value stems only from labour. You can seize billion of dolars, but if nobody wants to work for you if you offer him money then that money is of no use. You can also understand the capital as a form of assets ownership, but if you "seized the share in a company" then it means nothing. You would still have commodity based economy that is focused on profit. "Market actors use barter as a replacement for money as the method of exchange in times of monetary crisis, such as when currency becomes unstable (e.g., hyperinflation or a deflationary spiral) or simply unavailable for conducting commerce. No ethnographic studies have shown that any present or past society has used barter without any other medium of exchange or measurement, nor have anthropologists found evidence that money emerged from barter, instead finding that gift-giving (credit extended on a personal basis with an inter-personal balance maintained over the long term) was the most usual means of exchange of goods and services. Nevertheless, economists since the times of Adam Smith (1723–1790), taking non-specific, often wholly or inaccurately imagined pre-modern societies as examples, have used the inefficiency of barter to explain the emergence of money, of "the" economy, and hence of the discipline of economics itself." Barter economy existed for a reason (exchange of labour). If you took the factories, firms (companies) etc. and basically conducted a revolution, then the wealth in form of capital that porkies have would evaporate.

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/Beardtube/ Growing Thread Anonymous 08/05/2020 (Wed) 14:36:44 No. 747700 [Reply] [Last]
Hello comrades, As you can see i made this thread with the purpose of helping growing the so called Beardtube milieu of channels (The term is basically a proxy to say Marxist adjacent/Marxist Youtube channels). I'm asking the mods to keep this distinct from /IG/ if anything because I'd like this thread to be a place for small comrade channels to grow and also because /IG/ includes also non Marxist left content discussion. That said, I will leave down there a partial list of Marxist and Marx-adjacent channels to follow if interested in those kind of contents on Youtube. Here's the list: Okay here we go The Beardtube list : -/Leftypol/ videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSm1_XO-zvR0ToSJYMljmPA -Anticonquista https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl1bDSVi34xE65YzreytVxQ -Austrian_Maoist1

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Edited last time by Degoist on 08/26/2020 (Wed) 09:15:51.
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>>886696 Normie friendly content. Real stuff that could be a gateway same way shit like Black Pigeon Speaks can be for the right.
>>886845 Wdym normie friendly
>>886870 Not EXPLICITLY Ml (with shit like Stalin in the intro and stuff), but still capable of dropping MASSIVE REDpills for the average people
>>886870 Use actual theory but basic stuff and in layman's terms.
>>886885 >>886906 Good idea yeah

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New Multitude- leftypol related magazine Anonymous 08/22/2020 (Sat) 13:15:40 No. 793845 [Reply] [Last]
I want to ask this communities advice on how to proceed. Firstly, I still think there's a great wealth here. leftypol's strength is a great community from around the world and people who I believe have something unique to offer as far as leftist analysis goes. Leftypol's weakness is that this strength is fleeting, hence the Nm project. 1.While medium is ok I think it's time to move the magazine to its own website which will make it a hell of a lot more professional looking and attract more readers. 2. I have no tech skills. I need someone to help me build the website, linking the domain name etc. I have asked on /tech/ but I got mostly responses of "learn it yourself it's easy" sorry but I don't have the time to do that, which is why I hosted on medium in the first place. Is there anyone out there who could assist with this 3. getting higher quality posts. I think the idea of grabbing effort posts from leftypol is still valid, but it takes a lot of work to edit these into a quality I am happy with. Many of the current articles are curated debates, etc. I think they are good, but I also think it would be great to have some original essays too. We have some from Brazil anon and Singapore anon. I would love to work more with people here who have something unique to say. So I would like to offer something like $100 for an original essays/articles and various amounts for artwork too. I could fund this for while but.. 4.this would also mean that long term the project would need a patreon or something.I would actually like to do it so the artists and contributors got a fair share of any patreon money, so they could continue earning. Anyway this discussion is moot without first getting a reputation for quality and unique posts. 5. the name. So many people thought that many "New Multitude" was some kind of Hardt and Negri offshoot..I guess that's understandable, but it's not. What do you think about the name..I was also toying with the name "Swinis Multiude" which is the name the arch-conservative Edmund Burke gave to the common folk of England as an insult and which they reclaimed in jest. So yeah...Let me know what I should do. originally I set up a email for work, but quickly realised this wasn't a good plan. the best way to contact me is through twitter messaging twitter.com/newmultitude
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>>858617 website is being built. looking for quality contributions, particularly from outside US/UK politics (although we will include them)
>>866968 What would the podcast cover and what would the format be, ideally?
>>867024 It should just be a pod with leftypol randos talking their opinions. i guess it would only come out sporadically. But it would be a very good tool for outreach bc u could have guests on. A format i could imagine is every episode like 3 people who made good recent contributions to nM get to talk about it
>>793845 Hey, you could check out what I've written on >>886615 .
>>867071 I like that idea. It would encourage others to start improving the quality of their posts as well.

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