/hobby/ - Hobbies

Entertainment, Education, Games, etc.

Mode: Reply

Max message length: 8192


Max file size: 80.00 MB

Max files: 5


(used to delete files and postings)


Remember to follow the rules

HEMA/WMA Anonymous Comrade 04/17/2020 (Fri) 17:53:25 No. 8519
:Broadsword Edition: >What is HEMA or WMA? Historical European Martial Arts or sometimes Western Martial Arts are attempts at decoding, studying, and practicing the history, art, and fighting of everything from the Medieval Period to Early Modern Combatives. What traditions are you lot studying at the moment? Me? Going through George Silver's "Paradoxes of Defence" to expand my regimental broadsword/sabre repertoire.
>>8519 Just posting a few more for interest.
(4.16 MB 3712x3582 The-New-Broadsword-Exercise.jpg)
>>8519 >>8520 And this one, if you can read it.
(1.50 MB 2000x2909 test reformat.jpg)
>>8519 >>8520 >>8521 And last one. You should have enough to get practicing with these four. >attempt to upload #4
I can't believe somebody finally made a HEMA thread. Thank you, anon! So yeah, the official British military system formulated by the Angelo family/school (also other related sources like the instructional posters and books for personal purchase by one of their students such as Roworth) is relatively easy to learn, since it was designed to teach an army but also because it and other 18th-19th century fencing such as smallsword are what modern sport fencing descended from. The reduction/simplification of theory and focus on descriptions, instructions and drilling doesn't make it any less effective than medieval or renaissance fencing. Rather, the "theory" becomes apparent in its practise. It's quite /fa/ too. Nick Thomas' channel for various sparring videos and a few instructional videos since the quarantine to get a feel for the system: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_HtUzv9WIfxx31eYKDo4aA He works mostly with Roworth's Art Of Defense On Foot from 1796 which is clearly based on Angelo's method and also OP's posters. There is also the official "Infantry Sword Excerise" manual (again, Angelo-based) which was first published in 1817. I'll try to upload them in the next post. Also, Jay Mass, who focuses on basket hilt broadsword methods has also been providing lessons and drills on the military-style system since the quarantine. Check him out here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn9SaOfJEd-vljZ3d_C1Dqw
>>8542 Pretty dang cool, I'll check'em out. A source I've worked with, that I think is a great into in addition to Angelo's Ten Lesson format, is Archibald Maclaren who streamlined the RN's cutlass and later it'd go on to become the infantry standard in 1875. it's just four cuts with four guards, but it's pretty dope. Another cool source for fun is from Australia (see attached). Basically Italian dueling sabre.
>>8542 Here they are. The 1824 edition of Charles Roworth's Art Of Defense On Foot along with the 1817 and 1845 editions of Infantry Sword Exercise (too large; next post). These first two are by Nick's AHF group. I'm including the second Infantry Sword Exercise because I think the layout is easier to read and later editions of these books tend to be "better". The intro also expands a bit on the Angelo line. All three pdfs start with background info on the book, the system and the Angelos. Honestly, if you're interested in regimental fencing, I think it's better to start by watching introductory or instructional videos and observing sparring with instructors. Once you get a feel for it, you can start reading Roworth. Consult the internet for more information. I don't really recommend starting with ISE because it is more of a drilling instruction with stretches and warm-up exercises at the beginning. Of course, all this is only if you have no nearby clubs to join or if your club does not practise it.
>>8544 Awesome, I'll give them a read once I'm done with Silver. Sometimes I imagine training a group of comrades in this kind of stuff for fun and "just in case", but then realise guns are a thing :\
>>8544 1845 edition of Infantry Sword Exercise. >>8546 >George Silver Been reading him too. His "Brief Instructions Upon My PoD" is an actual fencing how-to while PoD is more his "thesis" on the italians. The important parts are chapters which *might* explain his personal fencing theory and concepts though they sometimes require reading between the lines. His takes on the rapier the last thing pay attention to, imo. And I am no fan of the long Capo Ferro style rapiers. >to expand my regimental broadsword/sabre repertoire. Are you reading the PoD & BI compilation by Cyril G. R. Matthey? The context of Matthey's editing and publishing it in 1898 with the help of "early HEMA"ist Alfred Hutton is exactly that. They felt that contemporary military swordsmanship lacked certain essential things such as grappling and hopes the reader to learn them as presented by George Silver.
>>8548 I do love how with Swetnam, Wylde, what'shisname, and Silver, it completes what we pretty much know about early English (and by reeeeaaaally long stretch Scottish) baskethilt fencing and rapier. Paradoxically, Silver basically teaches you really simple "rapier" if you read it from the other perspective. Throw in some Saviolo and Di Grassi, plus that other dude, maybe Pallas Amarta, and we see that the "English" rapier was a fucking chimera of a system. I'm reading the BOB, Big Orange Book. It's actual name, "Masters of Defence" by Paul Wagner and I got if for cheap. Plus years ago at a festival I got some lessons from Stephen Hand and said Paul Wagner when they visited my country. But yes, the later the sabre, the less gritty it is, the more one has to reintroduce more stuff. early broadsword, or "clan Era" stuff has a lot of that kind of thing.
(82.80 KB 452x686 Cutlass.png)
>See >>8551 Basically this image is the earlier version of the 1875 Maclaren Ed. manual.
(124.27 KB 246x209 Vincentio_Saviolo.png)
(829.28 KB 946x1340 Di_Grassi_Portrait.jpg)
>>8551 >Paradoxically, Silver basically teaches you really simple "rapier" if you read it from the other perspective. At a certain point, all bladework becomes familiar. I remember an article describing simple rapier using Liechtenauer. The four hangings as the main four positions, durchwechseln as the cavazione, etc. . I think the differences that remain are what makes each tradition/system/master their own. Their ideal dimensions of a weapon, their preferred mode of conduct or "body language" and even the way information is structured and relayed are things that give shape to a "system". >Saviolo and Di Grassi Really like these two for late sidesword/early rapier. They complement each other well despite some differences. Di Grassi in particular is fascinatingly simple but in such a fashion that his dimunitive plays are applicable in a broad amount of ways. Saviolo is also interesting in his preference for off-line or circular footwork. There are discussions on him possibly being influenced by spanish swordplay including a paper by Stephen Hand. I find "simple" systems more interesting these days. If I'm ever in the mood for bolognese sidesword, it's usually Dall' Agocchie or Anonimo Bolognese since they start with sword alone and do away with the lengthy "assaults" format for shorter plays.
(88.89 KB 477x351 fucking italians.jpg)
>>8578 >I find "simple" systems more interesting these days. Absolutely agree. Pouring over cryptic and convoluted "trade secret" manuals just doesn't do it for me much these days. Not to say I don't enjoy them but people like fucking Marozzo, bruh, just get to the point. Manciolino is pretty concise and clear... When he's not jerking himself of about his "Classical Literary Education". Di Grassi I think is deceptively simple, similar to my mind as Giganti in that they (the master) expect you to experiment and practice yourself. Compare this to someone like Fabris who's not as anal as Ferro, but also specifies key points and concepts without going full Destreza tier specific. Then again you get someone like MacBane and you're left feeling "Okay, what the FUCK did I just read?"
(415.36 KB 950x738 Di_Grassi_21.jpg)
https://youtu.be/xWKgVwVjY8E Nice to know Fabio is using Di Grassi and Saviolo in his recent appearances. Sucks that they're on the rare side of fencing but there are dedicated groups and videos around. It's interesting to see Silver use the "in a real fight" card centuries ago in PoD but also funny that he directed it against people with military experience. Both Saviolo and Di Grassi seem confident in what they do. Granted, DG's greatsword is pretty out there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqWC1VuhkPI Rob just uploaded this short presentation on time/tempo for Meyer's rappier but it's very similar to the topics in Silver's fencing theory. Silver's "Space" is the distance one needs to travel to successfully land a defense or attack. The four true times are as I see it can be simplified as four kinds of motions. Each motion suggests a particular speed/time and a particular measure/space. The time of the hand is fastest, but it's only possible when one is within striking distance (the "Place") since the foot does not move or at least does not need to. A faster true time will "defeat" a slower true time which is why tarrying in the Place is a dangerous thing since both fencers will then act on the time of hand. At that point, the first mover will likely arrive first. If you are to defend an attack there, you will likely fail since your Space will be too wide. "Wide" as in your hand does not have enough time to travel to the intended spot in due time, of which time is so short since the attacker is operating in time of the hand. Moreover, the hand is swifter than the eye. One cannot expect to parry every blow, much less at such a short distance. So leave the Place as soon as your action is finished. Maintain your distance to keep yourself safe. Parry in the closest position from your current one so they cannot deceive you in such little time. However you counter an attack that comes, couple it with a slight retreat backwards. Such are Silver's various advices on defense.
I've always wanted to get into this. Seems like a fun and semi useful way to work out. (probably not as much as something like Brazilian jiu jitsu which I also want to do but still)
>>8719 >Seems like a fun and semi useful way to work out. It is pretty sweet. Just get a bokken/shinnai, or sledgehammer, even a stick, and go through the motions. If you want to get sickening grip and forearm gains (and as a grappler I should hope you would), get a pair of Indian Clubs (or make some from plastic tubes and water bottles filled with... Whatever). Feel a pump and cramp you never thought possible. >also fixed my tennis elbow and carpal tunnel but ymmv
>>8719 What sort of period/weapon are you interested in? Longsword is the most popular thing by far. There's also messer and sword & buckler for the medieval period. Sideswords and rapiers can get quite technical. Regimental swordmanship of the late 18th-19th century (resources posted above) is much more simple to work with, and foil fencing began as the training for smallsword a bit before that. Of course, you'd want a dedicated partner/group for any serious training. In any case, you can stick to one system and work from there. How to cut effectively and safely, edge alignment, body mechanics, footwork, etc. . There's plenty of videos for beginners in the net to consult and compare with. If you're interested enough to read the sources, there's Wiktenauer. They don't have everything but they do host the major medieval (german & italian) and bolognese (sidesword) sources. Take heed though that learning to read a treatise is a whole other process.
>>8729 I'm a pretty big dude, so I'm definitely leaning more towards longsword. As much as I am interested in the idea of a rapier my fine motor skills can be shit since I have a slight tremor. I live in a major city so I definitely think I should be able to find a place to train when the corona epidemic is over.
>>8736 >As much as I am interested in the idea of a rapier my fine motor skills can be shit since I have a slight tremor. I'd recommend you still try it, I can't recall which master it was but there was one who wrote a short textual treatise who had "the shakes". However all this did was a) Lull opponents into a false sense of confidence, underestimate him in other words, an b) During salle practice and acutal shit-your-pants judicial duels said shaking stopped because >"... All the sinews and senses of the body, in that moment of truth, were stilled like water on a pond..." Foil has a similar effect according to a former instructor. Something to do with the body going "Oh, we need signal to word briefly and it's done so often so we'll shortcut it momentarily".
>>8742 Interesting then. I might possibly consider it.
(108.74 KB 1280x853 1 (1).jpg)
https://youtu.be/gE4nCW_xgzU https://youtu.be/-V5lo8O8FIE I forgot to check what the strayans are up to. Nice to finally get a look at Paul's take on Time and within interesting situations beyond having a basket hilt alone. >>8716 Btw, >very similar to the topics in Silver's fencing theory. >Robert has been swinging swordlike objects around for the past 18 years, first, with various medieval reconstruction groups, then in 2006 started a HEMA study group looking at the backsword/broadsword method of the Elizabethan Englishman George Silver. Ah, makes sense. The anglos were there all along. Baskets hilts are pretty interesting and their sources don't need translations but damn they can get expensive. With pic related which is in the 200€ range I could emulate arming sword/messer, sidesword and probably even early rapier. A sabre would be nice too...
(96.99 KB 599x449 hawkins4.jpg)
>>8889 >Baskets hilts are pretty interesting and their sources don't need translations but damn they can get expensive. Well there are a few options! If you look at german dussack, or Dutch walloons, they have quite simple hilts but still count as "basket hilts". Something like your sidesword there, well put a few more side rings on it, a knuckle bow, and you've got a complex hilt! Another option is to add plates to it to turn it into a bilbo or cup hilt. The last, and period accurate piece of advice, is to wear a gauntlet on your sword hand. A cool short cut also: If you learn broadsword, backsword, sabre, or any other baskethilt system, you can quickly adapt to using a buckler by using a less protective hilt and a buckler, and pretending your buckler is the baskethilt and act accordingly. It works pretty good.
(118.72 KB 1600x1003 image.jpeg)
>>8901 Oh, I was more thinking of the baskets in the British Isles. >dusack Rawlings uses blackfencer's 1796 for both sabre and dusack. I guess stirrup sabres are versatile in that way. >walloons I was wondering what the french were using as their broadsword equivalent before everyone started using sabres. That is, what sword represented the "espadon" fencing seen in certain smallsword plates as opposed to "pointe" and "contre-pointe". https://web.facebook.com/hemamisfits/posts/the-espadonneurs-plates-in-girards-smallsword-treatise-brought-up-a-lot-of-theor/1116288705207554/?_rdc=1&_rdr Also consider how the basic double shell + knucklebow setup from the walloon survived well into the 18th century with various blades types. The 1796 spadroon comes into mind.
(69.74 KB 680x653 accurate defence method.jpg)
All this is great, but absolutely useless if we have no-one to practise with. Practicing strokes and motions don't help unless you know when to use them in a fight instinctually, and just practicing alone will not gain you this instinct. This goes for ANY martial art.
(875.78 KB 1909x1163 Hundt_100.jpg)
>>9038 Yes. >>9042 Exactly, which is why people gather and do these things together. Fencing is more fun with friends. Drills and solo practise are still useful for conditioning, building muscle and working on good form. What better to do under a lockdown? Besides, there is an actual academic side to HEMA. Discussing theory, historical & sociopolitical context and experimentation are pretty important for HEMA as a whole. These surviving documents and source materials form the basis of all HEMA. Whether or not you're alone, you'd refer to them all the same. There are things you just can't practise alone, like this: https://youtu.be/GjkRhHYTeyw And heres a bunch of people having fun: https://youtu.be/bFzlrSmS-yM
Don't mind me. Just skipping past the entirety of longsword plays to get to the interesting stuff. The painted illustrations hosted at wiktenauer are nice too. https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Joachim_Meyer
(2.87 MB HEMA.webm)
(1.55 MB 1065x897 Cod.10799_009r_detail.png)
https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/gowqfp/in_italian_sidesword_is_there_a_term_for_an/ Interesting post by cleverseneca: >Coming from a German longsword and I.33 background, one thing that struck me in reading bolognese, is that they don't talk about binding or winds with the sword. Now obviously this isn't to say that this system doesn't or can't bind, just that they do not use language or special terms describe it directly like the Germans. The Germans are remarkably intentional about describing binds. The concept of "fuhlen" or feeling the bind is clearly very important in Liechtenauer's approach to fencing theory. From this need comes the very useful description of the 28 windings. How one should proceed in a bind depends on if they or their opponent is "weak" or "strong", "hard" or "soft". All in all, it's a universally applicable way of understanding and describing blade actions. I think however, this focus within the text could also bring about the misconception that one must always seek the bind. Clearly not true since there are various offensive actions that rather avoid it. Even against a simple countercut or parry, if your opponent is so weak or soft that their blade gets beaten away, the best thing to do is simply to extend your point. Likewise, there is no need to resort to "advanced winding techniques" in a bind when simpler, more direct actions are possible. >All this to say, you probably won't get a name for your movement as a binding movement. Its going to likely best be described either as a mezza volta (partial turn of the sword) [its transitioning from d'alicorno to guardia di entrance if I am imagining it correctly] , a strammazzone (a wrist cutting motion) or as disengage called a sfalazzare or cavare (which later become cavazione). Another related observation I'd like to add is that whether in a bind or not, the various motions you'd do moves the sword in more or less the same ways to the same postitions. I believe Viggiani also states that whether you're attacking or defending, you'd move the sword in similar ways along the same lines. From Fiore to the Bolognese masters, Di Grassi to Saviolo, the lack of specific terms and general vagueness in the topic of binding or winding seems largely consistent. They usually write only of strong and weak in terms of the blade's divisions and their use in leverage, attacking and defending. Vagueness could work in another way. Inverting this observation, it also means that one particular motion can be used in various contexts. Using dall'Agocchie as example: After parrying with guardia testa (inside hanging) you can return with a double tramazzone instead of a single mandritto. He doesn't really give any reason why but we can imagine that the first cut can serve either as a feint or a back edge parry/beat or perhaps we can cut the arm first before going for the head. Going even further, it can be understood that a particular set of blade motions can be used with different footwork and likewise a particular footwork pattern can be used with different bladework. You get the idea.
>>9929 Interesting write up anon. Thanks, I'll have to give it some thought.
(554.11 KB 515x432 Johannes_Liechtenauer.png)
>>10009 Little late but glad you found my rambling useful! I'm not experienced by any means. Still can count times I've sparred with my hand. As I understand it, the be-all and end-all of Liechty's system is simply to sieze the vor and work to the nearest opening with the smallest possible motion. The various techniques and devices laid out are ways to achieve that. Most of the plays actually deal with you being nach and having to retake the vor, usually using the relevant techniques indes. A bit more to add to the second part. By understanding that the same motion, more or less, can be utilised in multiple ways (offensive or defensive, in a bind or out, etc.) one can break down (by indentifying instances of the same action, how they're used each time) or build up (by trying to apply one action in other ways) a system, whether they're "complex" or "simple". Also, another example of vagueness in text: Di Grassi clicked for me when I was watching some dall'Agocchie plays and realised how a couple or more of them would fit into just one of DG's plays which had the virtue of being vague, or rather, open-ended on the position of the sword hand. One play effectively becomes several. Of course, we should always experiment responsibly by still adhering to a system's particulars. They are after all what shapes one master's method into their own and differently for others. The instances of bending or even breaking them without consequence does not invalidate an entire philosophy of fencing. Sometimes, simplicity is the point. Aight, that's enough for today.
(76.87 KB 250x209 Johannes_Lecküchner.png)
>>10470 Shit, I completely forgot to address the original point of the second part of my post. So, did the "Italians" in general saw no need to be as descriptive of the bind (not just the state of it, but sometimes whether you're even in one) due to an implicit understanding of this observation? That you, more or less, will do the same action whether with or without blade contact? Couple that with how they usually clarify that the foible is for attacking, the forte is for defending and maybe a bit on leverage, a reader probably has enough tools to understand what to do when blades do meet. We'll likely never know for sure. It's a useful way of looking at things whatever the case. Moreover, I think my question being "did the Italians" is a bit misleading. The other fencing material I've read are not that different regarding binds. It is the "Germans" (Liechtenauer tradition and those related to it) that are the exception, not the rule in this case.
>>10529 Yeah, the German traditions loved binding and talking about it constantly. Seems most other countries just kinda got on with it.
>>9049 >Fencing is more fun with friends. Drills and solo practise are still useful for conditioning, building muscle and working on good form. What better to do under a lockdown? G A Y D I C K F R O T T A G E
(337.87 KB 922x692 image3.jpg)
Pigs had some pretty nice swords tbh. >>8552 >maclaren Wasn't it by William Tuohy? I checked a bit and an Archibald Maclaren was apparently influential for his physical education system and did write a book on (foil) fencing but not an official one. https://www.antique-swords.co.uk/revised-infantry-sword-exercise-by-william-tuohy
(345.81 KB 1600x1082 talhoffer_hat_throw.jpg)
Reposting a series of effort posts on rapiers, spears, longswords and distance Saw this cool video of a rapier vs a longsword. It looks like the rapier was a better weapon. So much more range and speed. https://youtu.be/6r7VWIQCHvM Range is a huge advantage in a fight. Fighting a spear is tough if you only have a sword. You will be in the danger zone before they do. They will be able to make feints and thrusts before your sword is even able to hurt them. Covering yourself and getting past their point is key to survival. It is important though to realize that the spearman can still shorten the spear or use the back end. Therefore to disable/hamper the usage of the spear after getting past the point is equally important, whether by binding and angling the spear away with your blade, gripping the shaft or even simply rushing in to whack/grapple 'em before they could retreat or pull back their point. Likely you'd do more than one those at the same time. >better weapon I wouldn't go that far. The user's proficiency is more relevant. In any case, "better weapon" requires context. Range? Against armour? Single combat or multiple opponents? Battlefield or everyday carry? The last one especially is important to consider when discussing weapons. It's why people carried bucklers rather than shields, swords rather than spears, staves or walking sticks rather than edged polearms. Both rapiers and longswords were certainly carried in battlefields though. >speed A rapier would typically be nimbler than a longsword, thanks to its point of balance being at the guard/handle. I think "speed" is too vague a word. A sword is only as fast as the hand that moves it. A longsword is held with both. Its movements can be more powerful and just as fast with good body mechanics. Moreover, the longsword would have more leverage in a crossing/bind thanks to its greater mass, mass distribution and being held in two hands. However, you can see how rapidly the rapier changes lines and angles to both parry and strike. Nick's group mostly does late 18th-19th century british military swordsmanship (sabre, basket-hilt sword, cutlass, spadroon, etc.). These are also interesting: https://youtu.be/0bEcg5gV_NY https://youtu.be/t8rIwLFXba8 <Inb4 'Rapiers are almost useless against fully armoured opponents' Most opponents do not have full plate armor with chainmail underarmor anything less will still have vulnerable zones easy for a lighter rapier user to exploit. Even then, a rapier has the precision to strike through something like a visor hole.
(11.30 KB 480x360 1447718583317.jpg)
Repost 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr1vsU-6vuU https://youtu.be/ERmM5l2ceoY Rob Roy and The Duellists have 2 of the best swordfights put onscreen in Western ekranization --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- https://youtu.be/v9tM_YHvhuA >HEMA instructor >17 minutes I gotta agree on that first one. Only thing I've seen of the witcher but Geralt moves really well despite the reverse grip. https://youtu.be/C3HMz25LvnY Really like this one too. Like Dave said, "spinning" becomes an actual thing against multiple opponents. That said, most of the twirling came from the guards when they're closing in or retreating. There's grappling, punching, kicking, enhanced spatial awareness (loljedi) along with solid blows and parries. The highlight is definitely on Ben dealing with multiple guards. Gripping and using one's weapon to defend himself while parrying and striking at the other two. There's just something about his saber and how he handles it that I find appealing. The way he keeps his point on line @ 1:27 is sexy. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't get it when people say "real sword fighting wouldn't look good". I don't think anyone's advocating for 100% realism. I'm sure boxing in movies and IRL look different too. Perhaps it's different for the uninformed, but historical swordplay looks better every way. Hell, some exchanges in sparring can be as theatrical as cinema all while being technically sound. Since exaggerating or slowing bladework even with good technique for safety and the viewers' benefit is already a given, the next best aim would be to give "masters" or "experts" good and distinct forms when moving and fighting. Body language is part of acting, no? Have a gander at Robert and his opponents: https://youtu.be/ju0t2z0p-c4 https://youtu.be/T2LkXMhhKSY https://youtu.be/eDpANnct46U And if you want fancy shit, the masters have it too: https://youtu.be/0dnGNJvoNeQ Or you can be fancy in a sensible way: https://youtu.be/oQ88cuzsyqE https://youtu.be/WDoYXHdNbTU Hollywood is actually not interested in History, but only a semblance of Historical accurary hence why there are so many inaccuracies in films. They just don't care. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJFFLvwNLlM
(171.55 KB 1200x844 sword combat 1.jpg)
(160.64 KB 1200x844 sword combat 2.jpg)
(99.22 KB 800x563 sword combat 3.jpg)
Some contributions
(120.05 KB 1200x843 small shield fencing 2.jpg)
(128.42 KB 1200x843 small shield fencing.jpg)
(155.44 KB 1200x844 D5TQ6NFU8AA9pSu.jpg)
>>10910 There's a fourth book on shields. >>10908 >>10909 Thanks anon.
How would you rate the swashbuckling in Pirates of the Caribbean (first film). I felt that while a bit theatrical, it did so relatively realistically.
https://youtu.be/zi_go-bdz-8 https://youtu.be/j3vNOtxdVAA https://youtu.be/1N1d4vxIv18 https://youtu.be/IzAe0PDgmMw https://youtu.be/vpaTNEgHl44 Series of videos on George Silver. >keep it simple >keep your distance >defensive inches vs. offensive feet >step back in whichever of the 3 actions (counterattack, ward & return or slip & return) you choose to do when set upon While one might not agree with his definition of true times, I think it's a good introductory work that condenses and puts Silver's system into perspective. In particular, him admitting that, yes, being on the defensive and generally keeping distance will have you missing on certain opportunities for offense which brings up an interesting point. Maintaining distance for an extended period even in something quasi-competitive like sparring might not be the most productive action. In a "real fight" however, if you are out of distance and your attacker dares not to close, you are definitely keeping yourself unharmed. Silver himself described the epitome of the art as two fencers who are unable to hurt one another. He also explained Silver's "four motions" (bent, spent, lying spent and going back) and "four actions" (first, before, just and afterwards) which are some of the less discussed terms that were mentioned in PoD but seemingly absent in BI.
>>11010 Thanks for the 4th book and you're welcome.
(92.32 KB 1280x720 Urumi.jpg)
(81.55 KB 512x592 snakesword.jpeg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p-XYy0RKkA&lc Reposting an interesting anecdote Robert Venus 1 year ago "I first heard of the Urumi from a Sikh guy at a gym in Coventry, England. When he described it I was highly sceptical about its actual efficiency. He described it as a ceremonial weapon (where we all know that ridiculous is perfectly fine) and as a last resort. It was the latter that intrigued me. He brought his Urumi (no edge) to the gym and attached it to his belt. We heavy sparred with training knives 6 v 1. When we got close he unclipped the Urumi and let loose. We all had full guards on but the effectiveness of it, to displace or fend off a number of attackers was good. The speed he went from knife to a spinning wall of 5 spring steel ribbons was around 1 second. He then returned to knife for a single, controlled attack. And repeat. It'd be easily overcome with basic armour but that wasn't the context of its use. I also attempted to use it and was far more grateful of armour than when I was on the other end of it!" TL;DR: Whipsword Pro: It's unpredictable. Your opponent can't easily defend against it. Con: It's unpredictable. You can't easily defend against it. It also reminds me of the snakesword from Inuyasha
>>10757 >>10908 >>10909 Recognising good effort posts. >>10910 >>10911 >>11010 she protec she attac but most of all she want a hema anime bacc >>11548 Other George Silver channel (a bit cringe and low quality but has been active as a club for 20 years): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrDy16tSbklzWkqaunMGdzw And Georgie's books: Paradoxes of Defence (the theory book but with some good hints): https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Paradoxes_of_Defence_(George_Silver) Brief Instructions on Paradoxes of Defence (the actual fighting manual bit): https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Bref_Instructions_vp%C3%B5_My_Pradoxes_of_Defence_(Sloane_MS_No.376) tl;dr and cbf reading and watching hours of content? Here's the entire system in less than five minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT3oaQl_fwg It's a bit dated now, but still a good primer. >>11558 Similar to some flails or other styles of that sort of weapon from different cultures. It has a very specific purpose, but at that purpose it's dope if you have sufficent training/skill in it and understand its weaknesses and strengths.
(81.54 KB 1044x500 128623-1292726729.jpg)
(476.00 KB 1280x800 Screenshot_2020-07-08-11-48-29.png)
(278.89 KB 2609x1074 9c9262a50f9864f9c065738fe75e6488.jpg)
>>11532 I paid more attention to the swords they were using tbh so I had to rewatch a couple of scenes. Some of the swords look like copies of the various hangers used in the first half of the 18th century. A couple showed up in James Miller's 1735 micro-treatise labelled as "faulchion". Here's Matt Easton with one them: https://youtu.be/-Km5tWrhU-4 >I felt that while a bit theatrical, it did so relatively realistically. I'd say so. There's nothing truly "offensive" about it. In Will's first encounter with Jack, you can see the sword he used was some sort of single edged spadroon after it got stuck. He closed in on Jack with a series of thrusts moments prior which is appropriate for the weapon. I also notice the usage of half hanging parries against attacks to the body in these kinds of movies which are perfectly valid actions. Films set in the age of smallsword onwards have it easy though. It seems that by the time that virtually all masters settled for mostly linear, right foot forward, lunge-based swordplay, the evolution of European (or at least British) fencing became more or less linear up to their contemporary forms. Backsword/broadsword fencing at that point was very much related to smallsword. They'd share similar footwork and most of the positions. Biggest difference is one could actually cut and the parries and positions might have adjustments to acommodate that. Various masters like Zachary Wylde would teach smallsword first as the foundation before moving on to broadsword. Even when the smallsword itself as a weapon fell out of use its martial knowledge survived as foil fencing. And just as broadsword and smallsword were related, so were the military sabre and foil. Just compare modern foil/epee/sabre guards and parries to the Napoleonic-era posters OP posted. Chances are, if your film is set around 1700s onwards and the choreography is based on modern fencing, you wouldn't be that far off. Foil/epee fencing with rapiers look weird but the really bad stuff happens when you base medieval fencing on absolute fiction. Hope I got all that stuff correct.
(674.32 KB 1200x675 fencing.jpg)
>>11600 >Zachary Wylde
(1.11 MB 800x1280 thepassionofmichelfoucault.png)
>>11605 >James Miller (born 1947) is an American writer and academic. He is known for writing about Michel Foucault, philosophy as a way of life, social movements, popular culture, intellectual history, eighteenth century to the present; radical social theory and history of political philosophy. He currently teaches at The New School.
>>11600 >>11532 This entire thread reminds me of the phrase from the film, where, after Will announced that he made all the swords and practiced 3 hours a day, Captain Sparrow said he needed a girlfriend, kek.
(4.29 MB 620x344 WymianaKill5mb_c.gif)
(4.85 MB 648x360 stabbed.gif)
https://youtu.be/oOJ_sYrQ5Gs https://store.steampowered.com/app/1000360/Hellish_Quart/ He's made some weapon animations for UNITY before. Good to know he's working on an actual game.
>>12355 >tfw you planned to do something like this but with performance capture >someone more skilled does it before you so you chance of being freed from your chains are now gone >again Fuckig god damn it. Back to slaving for Porky to pay the bills I guess :\
(207.82 KB 800x1575 modern armor in progress.jpg)
Bumping with a video for making ceramic based plates on the cheap. In testing they seem to stop 5.56 lead core with a steel penetrator (m855) surprisingly enough. I knew a guy that survived a stabbing by sticking a couple of plastic cutting boards down the front of his coat, stopped the blade cold and distributed the shock out over his stomach so he barely even had a bruise. He didn't survive depression though :( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYkl4m3uoOE
>>17460 That pretty cool thanks b- >He didn't survive depression though -oh. Sorry to hear that :(
(424.19 KB 680x614 Anita_StarWars&armor_fail.png)
>>17460 Speaking of armor: idpol liberals are chimping out about "muh breast armor!" in the Mandolorian... ignoring the fact that armor accommodating for a female's body is the opposite of sexist. https://www.piratesandprincesses.net/the-mandalorian-on-disney-faces-anger-over-female-mandalorian-armour/ https://insidethemagic.net/2020/11/the-mandalorian-controversy-kj1/ Shadiversity of course came through again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpbjSmZx3m4
>>12355 >Shashka animations losing and have no striking force They're heavy as hell and are swung at crazy speeds, both those gifs are trash.
>>19006 How did Shad manage to make a living off doing this shit? Fuck me.
>>19006 >twitter screencap >Sarkeesian twitter screencap Sure is /v/ in here.
>>19006 why do retards love arguing about the dumbest shit and yes im referring to both sides of this "debate"
(832.85 KB 2500x1500 Mando boob squich anita.jpeg)
>>19062 >Muh /v/! 1) You've been spamming this exact same fucking response on every board on random threads, so fuck off samefag 2) It's related to the fucking thread you moron; armor in history and fiction. >>19063 How is the other side dumb? They're not the ones raving over a 10 second clip, and making some funny drawings and simple responses is incomparable to Anita's rant about "muh boobies" over a slightly curved armor. An armor that fits both historical and modern day precedent, makes sense and is canon to the character and the Mandolorian culture-lore. People responded because she's a loud mouth whose inciting shit because she has nothing better to do except engage in "cancel-culture" and other slander. Stay mad over cartoon boobs.
>>19006 >>19067 1) who the fuck cares 2) it fits more in the star wars thread anyways
>>19068 >who cares A lot of people apparently >star wars thread I posted it here since the topic is first-most armor and because Shadiversity made a recent video about the Mando armor and female armor in general. So I flsehd out the context before reposting the video.
How come quarterstaff technique isn't the same as bo staff technique? You'd think they would have arrived at the same general principles.
>>19071 The latter is much lighter and faster compared to a heavier quarterstaff.
>>19072 Absolute nonsense. Bo staves are generally the same length as quarterstaves and there are even historical accounts of people using metal bo staves.
>>19075 >Bo staves are generally the same length as quarterstaves and there are even historical accounts of people using metal bo staves. Every source I've read about bo staffs is that they're 5 or maybe 6ft at most. The "English" quarterstaff starts at 7ft and goes up to 9. A metal bo, probably hollow pipe, because solid metal would be clumsy as shit. Good for exercise and practice maybe. Even then, a quarterstaff could be made of oak, ash (preferred), blackthorn, etc. In the 19th century they used bamboo and rattan, but only for safety reasons and because they were already making lances out of the stuff at the time. Plus all bo are round, but a quarterstaff could be octagonal or oval so it has an "edge". Basically no, a bo cannot be used the same as a proper quarterstaff. But if you mean like a baton, bastone, jager/alpenstock, or some other short staff weapons, then yes they'd basically work the same.
(1.54 MB 2736x3648 Japanese_bo.JPG)
>>19077 >Even then, a quarterstaff could be made of oak, ash (preferred), blackthorn, etc. Indeed, and so were many bo staves (and still are today). Pic related, a heavy bo with a hexagonal cross section at the part where you hit people. I've got a hardwood bo right next to me that's hefty and gives me a good workout. I think you're really reaching for regional identity, a big stick is one of the simplest weapons to make and woody plants have been universally available to construct one in most cultures.
>>19077 >>19078 Also, >Older bō were round (maru-bo), square (kaku-bo), hexagonal[7] (rokkaku-bo) or octagonal (hakkaku-bo). The average size of a bō is 6 shaku (around 6 ft (1.8 m)) but they can be as long as 9 ft (2.7 m) (kyu-shaku-bō).[2]
What is conditioning like in hema? squats,pushups or just the swinging of heavy objects in itself?
>>19075 I said LIGHTER and FASTER you angry speedreader. Where did I say shorter? And metal Bo can and often had hollow areas making them lighter.
>>19081 Personally I use a 50cm steel-rod for weights with a 2kg weight on the end and repeat basic sword swings (up/down, left/right, diagonal,jabs, etc.) and it trains your arms well. I have no trouble swinging around ordinary one handed swords and heavy two-handers are much easier to handle. Also a good exercise is rotating the sword in your hand like a shashka, as it helps the wrist be better used to more complex movements and swings
Huh, this thread came alive again for a bit. Guess I'll finally post this. https://youtu.be/WTngy6s8F3o This is a fascinating example of the thing I was rambling about in >>9929 and >>10470 regarding common or repeated motions within a system. In fact, the meat of the system shown here apparently stems from 13 basic movements. Each can be applied in various ways (offensive or defensive, advancing or retreating, etc). and presumably combined with the other techniques depending on the stimulus to form a more complete play. Through this process, the stem of basic motions branch out into the whole applied art. This is the same process by which seemingly "simple" systems like Di Grassi's evidently become more "whole". The reversal of this, in turn, is what can be used to break down a more extensive treatise for whatever practical purposes you may have. It's a useful tool to put things into perspective. Teachers and researchers will find all this obvious, I'm sure, but it's quite a journey for newbies or plain amateurs like me to come to this topic by themselves with little access to an instructor or fellow fencers to discuss with. Also, I erroneously typed 28 windings instead of 24 for some reason. My bad. History from the description: >Wudang Swordsmanship 13 techniques (武當劍法十三勢)are introduced by “Magic Sword” General Li JingLin (李景林) in 1920s. General Li met and learnt Wudang Swordsmanship from a Wudang Sword Master Song WeiYi (宋唯一)from 1922. Ji(Strike), Ci(Stab), Ge(Block), Xi(Wash) are four main techniques in the original Wudang sword techniques which is taught by master Song WeiYi. General Li JingLin introduced these swords techniques to his soldiers, after he created his swordsmanship company(劍術連) in the army. General Li also invited other swordsmanship teachers such as Xing Yi Master Sun LuTang, Bagua Zhang Master Jia QiShen to his swordsmanship company as an adviser. From numerous sword sparring and experiments inside the swordsmanship company in the army, general Li and his crews extracted and analysed the practice movements. They developed 13 main techniques and called “Wudang swordsmanship 13 techniques (Wudang Jian Fa Shi San Shi)” Yet again, some dude learned from and with plenty other people before passing down the gathered knowledge. On a related note, it seems clear to me now that the often exaggerated or even abstract nature of the forms/kata of various "traditional martial arts" are largely the result of them being the physical equivalent of cryptic medieval verses that were recorded and passed down. They are meant to be dissected, understood and then applied, hopefully with accompanied text if available or at least a competent teacher. There are various aspects to study in each part, from body mechanics to handwork to footwork. In HEMA's case, we are lucky enough to have had medieval glossators and proper instructional books by the renaissance before the various practices died off.
>>19452 >this thread came alive again for a bit We have spurts of interest, people find something interesting/new, post it and start a brief discussion before it dies down for a month again.
>>19048 >How did Shad manage to make a living off doing this shit? >Fuck me. Not the anon you're replying to, but Shad's not really any worse than Skallagrim (for example.) The key to YouTube success seems to be putting out opinionated rants on subjects that enough people are interested in. And having a regular uploading schedule.
>>19452 niceu
(316.91 KB 901x690 Di_Grassi_7.jpg)
Okay, not to jerk the guy off any further, but this is unironically the best guide to footwork I've read so far. They're the most basic (hence, important) steps that practically everyone uses, but the most miraculous thing is the fact that he made a footwork section this concise and universal. The only confusing thing is that the figure has his left foot in front when the lines are meant for a right foot forward stance. To put it more simply than it already is, you have full and half steps. Either can be forwards or backwards, straight or slanted though he says forward steps tend to be sloped while backwards tend to be straight. The two steps of the back foot that are given special attention are the oblique pass forwards and the circular compass, where the back foot circles behind the front. That's it. For earlier fencing that uses left-forwards as much, simply mirror the diagram and actions. It's basically HEMA footwork 101 from a historical source. Only thing left to add I'd say is foot/hip turning and the role it plays in power generation. >>19077 Thanks for the new book!
>>19558 Di Grassi is pretty based I've used some of his stuff before and it's damn fun. Shame he doesn't get the attention he deserves imo


no cookies?