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Anonymous Comrade 01/11/2020 (Sat) 02:47:32 No. 5161
How did these clearly left wing books become a symbol for ancaps?
Black and white thinking, or "splitting." Commies is commies, so if you criticize some commies, you're criticizing all commies.
They're imbeciles who can't write themselves (because creativity and slavish obedience to authority don't go together) and so have to pathetically latch on to left wing art.
>>5161 Because Orwell is a hypocrite who had left-wing values but betrayed them due to ideological differences and his own arrogance and inability to self-crit resulting in him writing the posted books. 1984 reflects both his vision of the USSR and Capitalist Britain while Animal Farm is a twisted allegory for the USSR from the Revolution to Stalin. Animal Farm is well written but its obvious jabs at Stalin make it annoying to me from a historical context. Moreover it provided ample literary bait for rightoids to cite at the Left as a "see even lefties hate you" type of quote. 1984 is straight up a rip off of an obscure Soviet novel written over a decade before Orwell's 'vision'.
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>>5168 >if something criticizes a guy I like it’s bad
>>5168 >1984 is straight up a rip off of an obscure Soviet novel This is just a meme talking point that circulated the media headlines a year or so ago purely because of its clickbait value. Far from secretly ripping off 'We' and hoping nobody noticed, he published a review of it before it had even been translated into english, encouraging people to read it and reprint it etc.: https://orwell.ru/library/reviews/zamyatin/english/e_zamy Anyway calling it a 'ripoff' is just dishonest. Sure he got some of his ideas from We. But it's a different fucking book.
Because the American educational system has, purposely, omitted, not only the fact Orwell was a left leaning libertarian Communist, but, left leaning libertarianism as a whole.
The criticism wasn’t rooted in any actual theory other than Stalin bad Lenin and Trotsky good
>>5161 Because Orwell has never been truly leftist in the first place. He snitched on leftists after coming back to the UK and still held huge racist, classist prejudice until his death. Dude never shook off his bourgeois class background and only turned Trot due to it. In short, he’s a radlib larping as a leftist.
>>5161 These books are basically "Trotsky's books illustrated". And, as you are aware, Trotskyists turned into the Neocons.
>>5174 > still held huge racist, classist prejudice until his death so, like Engels?
>>5174 He was completely open about the visceral class prejudice which he inherited from his background and upbringing. He was horrified at it, and wrote about how he overcame it. Same for racism. This is the whole point of his essay on anti-semitism. If you're prejudiced, you should recognise in yourself that you are prejudiced, and resolve it from there, rather than immediately deny that you could possibly hold such an 'evil' thought and thus stay unaware of your own prejudices. So contrary to what the other anon said above, he did actually self-crit quite well
>>5168 >Reeeee how dare you criticise Stalin from left pov.
>>5179 >From a left-pov <No self crit on Trotskyism <Made up a majority of slandering of Stalin that modern fascists and liberals use <Muh authoritarianism Face it. He’s a radlib at best and a Trot-turned Tory at worst. A sad fate for most British Trots. >>5178 >I wrote essays on admitting my prejudices! This absolved me of snitching my comrades while noting them as jews, deviants and gays for MI6 to extrajudicially put away. >This also make my sperg outs against MLs during my International Brigade days okay! Your actions are more important than virtue signaling, just like today.
>>5174 When did the left wing of pol become so stupid they started falling for no true scottsman fallacies?
>>5170 >just a meme talking point that circulated the media headlines a year or so ago actually this is something i base off of what i read several years ago. the book essentially is the same concept. Either way Brave New World is much better.
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>>5169 >if something criticizes a guy I like it’s bad <if i strawman an argument i'm smart >>5177 Engels was a class traitor and as for racism his views there are relatively obscure, while orville clearly finds 'niggers and jews' to be distasteful. >>5179 >criticise Stalin from left It's not criticism it is slander. defending every two-bit 'writer' and 'journalist' as self-crit is liberal bullshit. Make hollow allegories based on literal Red Scare myths is not criticism and enables right-wing propaganda. >>5183 >muh no-true-scotsman Orwell repeatedly betrayed the leftist movement and demonstrated conservative anti-left views in many of his works and real-life actions. His actions and words would get him the label of a rad-lib today, but of course after decades of fellating him in Western schools and colleges, Western leftists can't look at him objectively and think that defending his writing requires defending his personality or ideology. I can enjoy Kipling's books, he's still an imperialist. Sinatra was a great singer, he was still an abusive husband and terrible human. Orwell was a good writer but its obvious allegory for the USSR betrayed the left over-all and his actions outside his writing undermined leftist movements.
>>5183 >no true scottsman >slander every leftist movement he could >sperging out about the CNT-FAI progressive social policies because they were “degenerate” to his aristocratic shit brain >snitching leftists to British intelligence >held the autistic Brit Trot ideas of supporting Nazi Germany against the USSR so that revolution would just magically happen <but he said he’s a leftist so this is all good My dude you are repeating Mutt arguments for “Nazis are socialist” word for word! >>5177 >True racism is when you say the n-word in your shitposts with friends >Making public remarks about “deviants” and obsessively talked about people’s race and sexuality as a reason for prosecution of leftists is not Running the point of Orwell being a contemporary radlib to the goal aren’t ya.
>>5190 Except that displaying "anti left leaning views" does not mean "He betrayed authoritarian socialist regimes." I do agree he did shady horrible shit later in his life and that was fucking wrong and fuck him for it, but, to say the man was not a socialist is nothing short of revisionism. >>5197 Except the Nazis actually weren't socialists and this can be demonstrated by their insistent privatization of, literally, everything. Orwell on the other hand fled to Catalonia to fight with the POUM against fascism and for socialism.
>>5164 *holds up atlas shrugged* UM ACKSHUALLY
>>5161 orwell: this bleak look at an alternate future is what could happen if we let a tendency i have identified in leftism go too far and fail to stop it tankies: WTF HE'S MAKING UP STUFF ABOUT WHAT SOVIET RUSSIA WAS ACTUALLY LIKE Every time. The fact that tankies take orwell's speculative fiction to be a documentary of the Stalin regime betrays their guilty consciences.
>>5201 >Orwell on the other hand fled to Catalonia to fight with the POUM against fascism and for socialism. You could use this same reasoning for any ex-socialist fascists. My point is that when his biggest “achievement” was when he was an anti-communist liberal then he should be remembered as such, not the socialist he used to be in his youth. Modern leftist should just accept the fact that radlibs exist in every point in history and they shouldn’t be venerated any higher than that.
>>5161 has this been posted yet?
>>5207 >Jewish >Negro >German >Anarchist leanings
>>5207 >muh list he had Tabcercolious at the time
>>5208 >Anti-anarchist >Anti-ML How some leftist can defend this piece of trash while claiming to be against fascism is beyond me. A classic case of the Trot to Neocon (and radlib to fash) pipeline. >>5210 >Muh disease Cringe. Even Lovecraft and his autism is more deserving of defense than Orwell.
>>5204 lel.
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>>5204 I know you're being ironic, but just in case anyone doesn't know, Atlas Shrugged LITERALLY has a 60 page monologue by one character. The absolute state of ancaps
>>5218 >implying she’s wasn’t trying to suppress Prousts literary talent, and almost did with Atlas Shrugged.
>>5205 >tankies take orwell's speculative fiction to be a documentary of the Stalin regime betrays their guilty consciences. What a strawman argument. The Reason Animal Farm is related by 'tankies' to be anti-stalinist drivel is because its a blatant allegory that Orwell does not hide and fits his anti-soviet views. For example the whole "Stalin stole Trotsky's industrialization plans" myth which is quite obviously shown. > bleak look at an alternate future is what could happen if we let a tendency i have identified in leftism go too far and fail to stop it Except it's fucking ideological sectarian drivel of the worst kind. It's not a solid critique but an embracement of liberal anti-socialist myths.
>>5201 >does not mean He can't betray them because he isn't within said regimes. he betrayed the entire left movement by acting as a 'leftist' who discredits the largest socialist movement on earth through dishonest allegory and cherrypicked slander as well as direct betrayal with his list of suspected communists. >to say the man was not a socialist He's a rad-lib anarchist. Just because he may have claimed support of socialism does not make him a socialist. Hitler also called himself a socialist while privately admitting to co-opting the phrase to gain popular support.
>>5168 whats the original obscure novel then? And how do you know that 1984 reflects the USSR...? I know that's the mainstream take, but when I think about it now, it describes fascism more than anything... brutal hierarchy, religious brainwashing, subversion of all resistance, etc. I agree that animal farm is a bit basic though. Strange because I was thinking about that earlier today before seeing this thread. >>5161 IMO its just entryism OP. See what leftists rally against (Stalinism) and try infiltrate it. Just like isolationists trying to infiltrate anti-war movements.
>>5170 You are right, We is an even worse book than 1984. The dystopia it imagines is more in-line with theological idealism of the book Utopia than some slight attempt at critical analysis. To be honest the only slightly believable dystopias are also books that actually tries at world building rather than a kind of drivel of a writer’s frustration at some real world object in their limited and subjective views (Zamyatin being an opportunist piece of trash and Orwell being an anti-communist snitch). Notable examples can include It Can’t Happen Here and The Iron Heel, which did more to predict the modern post capitalist wreck we are living in than those limp-wristed, masturbatory fantasies of Orwell and his ilk ever did.
>>5253 >It Can’t Happen Here and The Iron Heel Finally someone other than a Russian-speaker sees the greatness of Jack London
>>5251 I suggest you watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2mFVF8vfuI There are English subtitles provided. >whats the original obscure novel Yevgeny Zamyatin's "We" Orwell's concepts such as "big brother" is taken from that book as well as the main plot-line. It is also a fact that he read said book and in 1946 even wrote a review on it. >how do you know that 1984 reflects the USSR Because A) His real life political position was anti-Soviet B) His description of the world of 1984 is very similar to Red Scare propaganda about the USSR. Orwell never even tried to deny that idea. C) As I stated it was meant to be an anti-Soviet AND an anti-capitalist rant As a side note the main 'dictator' is a mustachioed mixed-up caricature of Horatio Kitchener and Joseph Stalin.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Goodkind Opinions on this jackass? I found out about him ironically because he refuses to allow fanfiction about his (shitty) stories to be written on Fanfiction.net. I read some excerpts of his books and its frankly horrifying how much like Ayn Rand this 'objectivist' is. His books are like Atlas Shrugged set in a fantasy world. Thankfully it's not as poorly-written as his idol's works. And yes pic 1 is a real excerpt from a book of his. Here are some more: https://www.bookandreader.com/threads/goodkind-quotes.11371/ also while writing fantasy books he is apparently NOT a fantasy author: http://cgi1.usatoday.com/mchat/20030805003/tscript.htm "First of all, I don’t write fantasy. I write stories that have important human themes. They have elements of romance, history, adventure, mystery and philosophy. Most fantasy is one-dimensional. It’s either about magic or a world-building. I don’t do either." http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2009/12/news/an-aside-terry-goodkind-is-still-an-asshole/ A short review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoKIcYeV-ZI Why is he Controversial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6ylsQ0DepI
>>5310 Most “objectivist” writers like this faggot or Ditko are usually much better writers than their idols but are hugely cucked by their own ideology to do anything further than make shitty fantasy. In their inner psyche, they knows that their ideology won’t work in the real world due to human nature itself so most of their creations have to be filled with esoteric bullshit like costumed-vigilantes or magic, or characters so ideology filled they only served as an extension of the writer’s frustration at their failure to realize their ideology in real life. I wouldn’t put much worries on these fucks. Sooner or later they’ll get cucked by same capitalist they worship.
>>5312 >red moonman Is this a counter to the /pol/ moonman meme?
>>5314 Where is this even from, anyways?
>>5325 Holy fuck this needs to be a /leftypol/ mascot... just to troll /pol/ with.
>>5327 Gonna have too agree there
>>5232 >suspected communists MLs are not commies and deserved to be rat out
>>5327 Hilariously enough I just found him randomly when some anon posted it on here. Maybe someone can pitch this on the OC thread, I’m shit at photo editing and drawing. >Crescent Moon Mask's scheme involved the creation of a town filled with people abducted by him and his minions, then injecting all those within the town with a drug that can turn people into werewolves upon his command. Replace “drug” with “cultural Marxism” and “werewolves” with “commies” and you’ll have a perfect spook for /pol/. >>5330 He ratted out Trots and Anarchists too, sectarian dumbass. Take your bait somewhere else.
>>5331 lol, I posted him in pol and he got them quite rilled up.
>>5331 >forcible furry conversion absolutely based and furcom pilled
>>5330 >MLs are not commies considering that they're the only ones to create socialist states that didn't collapse within a year and actually defended themselves against imperialism and followed most if not all communist ideas...yeah no, fuck off you sectarian traitor, people like you are the reason the USSR had to be careful with security, because self-righteous faggots who wanted "my speshul socialism"
>>5334 Make some screencaps
>>5168 But Stalin was a monster. Why worship an ignoble corpse?
>>6044 Go back to reddit
>>5168 The funniest thing about Animal Farm is how they teach it in American schools and push trotskyism on kids who can't even begin to comprehend the theoretical implications of anything that's written, let alone what went down in the Russian revolution and civil war. They just learn that snowball is the "good one" who was unfairly cast out. Like imagine actually having such a juvenile view of history as an adult and then shoving it down children's throats.
If anyone wants to get their Jimmies rustled I suggest reading http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/AAA_Russian_workers_raised_not_one_finger.htm The person writing this is a Succ-dem who styles herself supposedly after Rosa Luxembourg and posts constantly on quora, and now has this blog. The link is a 2 year delayed response to someone elses response to her slander. She proceeds to cherrypick like a motherfucker. What annoys me however is her veiled hatred of Soviet people, which she manipulates into a claim that they were not going to support "FAKE" socialism.
>>6180 cringe
>>6180 Huh, so this is the missing link in the Britbong Trotskyist to NeoCon pipeline.
orwell was an anarchist, he hated MLs
>>6424 >everyone who hates ML are anarchists Hitler and Mussolini were anarchists?
>>6425 >Hitler and Mussolini were anarchists <If a square is a kind of rectangle then a rectangle is a square! What kind of asinine attempt at deflection is this?
I think "subversive" fiction like this is worse than blatant anti-communism, because the latter is easy to identify and clear in intent.
>>8778 Orwell never was an anarchist you illiterate fucking moron. That's what the previous anon was too polite to say.
>>9808 >Orwell was never an anarchist <fought on the side of the Catalonians, and vehemently opposed republican and socialist forces other than them. Ok fag Also you're an idiot assuming that all posts in the sequence of replies are made by 2 people and not several people replying to one another.
>>5168 >1984 reflects both his vision of the USSR and Capitalist Britain It's more the latter than the former.
>>5308 I mean most people who read him do it's just that the Iron Heel is not the book everybody I guess at least in the western anglo-spehere gets to read. Instead they end up reading the Sea Wolf or Call of the Wild but even though they're good they're also the kind of books people don't really enjoy because people usually end up getting taught it in high school to be read once, have a book report typed up, and then forgotten.
>>9830 >the Sea Wolf or Call of the Wild <in American Schools Nigga people didn't even know who Jack London was in my school until I did my Senior thesis on him. White Fang is the only story truly famous enough for most of the US population and people don't remember the author is Jack London.
>>5168 christ the amount of mental gymnastics that tankie Stalin apologist kiddies do on a daily basis is astounding
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>Orwell succinctly BTFO's ML larp with simple books that can be comprehended by children >MLs are still SEETHING years and years later based Orwell
>>9811 Most of his writing straight up rip on anarchism. While in life he snitched out most anarchists he fought with to the British intelligence. Hating MLs doesn’t make one an anarchist. He’s Trot-adjacent at best.
>>9835 >BTFO's ML larp <books taking interesting story ideas and politcizing them because of butthurt over MLs is totally BTFO and not a massive shit under the table, smearing communism MLs and other real communists "seethe" because his works became obvious, convenient anti-communist cudgels by capitalists >>9834 Christ the amount of daily knee-jerk mental gymnastics of ankid/leftcom theorylets is mind-boggling. >>9836 He identified as lib-succ and later anarchist and later succ-dem. You're right in assessing him as a discount Trot, however he has at times adhered to anarchist mentalities. Regardless Orwell DID hate MLs.
>>5168 Orwell sucked on a personal level but his criticism of the USSR is not wrong. His writing is a little overwrought and indulgent IMO, which probably has something to do with ancap kiddies loving it.
>>9845 Here's an interesting question why did Orwell name the Trotsky stand in in Animal Farm Napoleon despite the common Trotskyist criticism of Stalin as Thermidororian?
>>9840 stalinist bootlicker seething
>>9851 brainless Trot ass-kisser dilating >>9845 > criticism of the USSR is not wrong Not ALL of it is wrong, but I never said he wasn't right 100%. That's the problem. He hides his anti-communism under a veneer of idealist disdain and sells it to liberals by mixing half-truths and lies as well as clear exaggerations that the uninformed take at face value. >>9846 Napoleon is the stand-in for Stalin. The Trot stand-in is Snowball. The entire banishment of him and resultant construction plans were a reference to the Leftcom accusation that "stalin stole Trotsky's' ideas (April Theses, 5 year plans etc.)"
>How did these counter revolutionary books become a symbol for counter revolutionaries? i wonder


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