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Batman Anonymous Comrade 11/11/2019 (Mon) 04:46:07 No. 2628
Porky punching lumpens to get his kicks or class traitor who directly and indirectly helpi people?

Also general capeshit thread i guess
Batman is the quentasential epitome of capitalist realism. He is a borgious who believes that he is helping others and generally thins of himself as an all around good guy, when, in reality he violates the law and opresses the low classes of society (both through his ownership and practice of wage labor and literally.)

This spectacle is reinforced and reciprocated through the, actual, literal, masses who consume this media and, intern, reciprocate back to the spectacle itself.
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Arthur was not lumpen you shitstain
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>grown man who hangs out with young boys at night at his mansion
He's a libertarian.
A lot of batman villains were working class who got wronged in some way. Ivy, freeze, two face etc...
>unemployed mentally ill guy who kills people
He’s lumpen bro
I’m more fan of his villains tbh. Also, there one batman comic(forgot the name), where he realises, that the only reason he’s not regular street goon is cause of his class.
You forgot Joker.
He got fired ; Being working class doesn't mean not literally holding a job. Read some theory you faggot.
lumpen is accurate
He’s still kills people and is institutionalized in a psychiatric asylum dumbass
>be billionaire
>want to "stop crime"
>don't lobby for prison reform or something like that
>buy expensive toys to help you beat up poor people
Practically every villain in his rogues gallery is a more sympathetic character, including the Joker, who at least honest about being a sadist.

The "no killing" rule is also the apex of liberalism, considering how often his enemies kill people and the fact that he is a war profiteer.
The Wayne foundation gives tons of money to help the citizens of Gotham, it's just not him punching people around
>muh good billionaires
Every dollar he spends to help punch people is a dollar he could spend on soup kitchens. This is liberal shit my man. Even assuming he does charity, he still wastes a profound amount of money punishing criminals instead of preventing crime by solving social problems.

The whole conceit of batman is that the government fails to enforce law and order to a billionaire vigilante has to step in. It's ancap fantasy to the max.
I know people here don't like Thought Slime but he gives some pretty good leftist takes on Batman https://youtu.be/73M2sq9zK-I

Overall, I think it depends on the writer. Some, like Frank Miller, do portray Batman as a borderline fascist doing what he pleases but others show his evolution from being a revenge driven conservative starting a war on crime to maturing and trying to erase the conditions on which crime arises in Gotham with the help of his fortune. I agree that in this context he's a liberal at best but I doubt anyone is going to write him going full Engels and starting a revolution.
He was an anarchist in Superman Red Son but he was basically just there as a gimmick. The whole comic is gimmicky as fuck, but that's what-if comics for you.
I haven't read capeshit in a long time. Is Red Son any good?
It has its moments but doesn't really go anywhere or fully explore its premise, and its portrayal of the USSR is very clearly based on western propaganda. It's not too long though. I have it in image format and could storytime it in another thread.
I would be up for a storytime.
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I just read DC's The New Frontier and it was 500 pages of unironic 50's American exceptionalism propaganda, only problem is, this was made in 2004!
>The Korea and Vietnam wars were bad because it made US soldiers feel sad:(
>CIA black ops guy who kills dissidents and refers to North Koreans literally as "evil commie gooks" is portrayed as the good guy
I’d like that too
Why can’t he be both?
Batman was never supposed to be political. His entire appeal is that he was a vigilante who simply had the money, tech and ability to carry out the justice against criminals that many ordinary people fantasize about.
He acts alone usually because he does not want to put responsibility on others, even the police whom he helps
He uses intelligence and skill that he refined through practice
He does not kill, not because of some bullshit like;
>"If you kill a killer the number of killers in the world remains the same"
but because he doesn't want to stoop to that level.
That is why his enemies have always been so interesting, they're all reflections of himself and human nature of one kind or another.
Two-Face - the dichotomy of choice
Joker - madness and impulsiveness caused by isolation
Scarecrow - utilization of fear
Hugo Strange - obsession
Penguin - a craving for opulence and respect
So on and so forth. Many of his foes also crave revenge and their own twisted justice.
In other words Batman when not linked the rest of the mess that is the DCU, is less about political ideology and more about individual human struggle and thoughts.
His enemy Joker is best, not when giggling madly over a clown-shaped gun but when he points out how Batman is not really so different from him: A freak in a suit operating outside the law. He's not a hero but an anti-hero. His fundamental humanity and position as a rich but kind person makes it hard for him to understand that the capitalist system is what creates most criminals he fights and his own status as a billionaire contributes to this. Instead he tries to take the world on his shoulders, but as a mere individual, even a billionaire, he fails because vigilantism is just picking at the symptoms and not the causes; missing the forest for the trees

Batman doesn't work in a world of superheroes like Superman or Wonderwoman or The Flash, He performs above human average because of money, intellect and training, but he is still human, which meshes terribly with superbeings. Being part of shit like the Justice League just makes him a poor parody and infects his character with american comic-book ideology, which is where the whole issue with him being an antihero comes up. He is neither ruthless enough to go full-assassin and thus be a counter to Superman's boyscout ideology yet his own original character contradicts such ideological action as well.

TL;DR: Batman outside of superhero DC-verse is a vigilante anti-hero whose tech and actions are a power-fantasy, and whose enemies are a reflection of himself and human nature.
His inherent characterization is not focused on the bourgeoisie-proletariat interaction, and was not originally political. Thus his character is inconsistent as part of the "American justice and freedom" superheroes of DCU.
For a socio-political/ideological analysis, Joker (especially the recent titular movie) is a much better character. Batman is more of a character study in a detective noir setting, except the private eye is a billionaire recluse with trauma and guilt. Marxist analysis of him can be done, but is comparatively pointless.
that has to be ironic
>blah blah blah blah blah
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>Batman was never supposed to be political.
>His entire appeal is [political shit about class contempt]
I'd recommend the left take back Superman since he works in that sort of populist mindset. That being said I'd be worried about the comparison to the fascist concept of ubermen or whatever.
>t.noreading comprehension
Well about capeshit, I know the story of a FB group that one time started to talk about doing vigilanterism, the next day a guy posted some news about a teenager getting killed in an armed robberie while masked.
Look, for anyone looking for a relatively realistic look on IRL vigilantism and how it turns out watch Bronson's Death Wish 1 and 2.
I'm straight up disappointed that Zack Snyder didn't make some kind of reference to Superman as an Übermensch fantasy in contrast with Jesse Eisenberg as a Jewish Lex Luthor.
>he works in that sort of populist mindset
Are you kidding me? He is a epitome of "le uberhuman" where his own superpowerdness is so OP that he should be able to solve 90% of major crime by simply over-hearing conversations from the atmosphere and observing everyone simultaneously as his own feats have shown. He is fast enough to act on everything too and shockwaves are near non-existent in superhuman comics except when needed for an effective action shot (otherwise Superman would tear space-time or create blackholes everytime he flew FTL or did other ridiculous shit). He is the most Gary Stu character to exist and his only limit is his "american way" to the point where this is parodied and mocked.

The majority of super-heroes are ideologically incompatible with socialism. More villains are ideologically leftist.
>The majority of super-heroes are ideologically incompatible with socialism. More villains are ideologically leftist.
There is an interesting cultural take on American mass culture in Russia, and on the superheroes in particular.

One interesting take is "An epic of Predator" by Leo Kaganov. It describes an interaction between "absolute collectivist" alien race, "absolute individualist-predators" and humans.

In particular, collectivists and humans try to understand the other races, and have some contact with each other. To quote it:
"The lone Hero only exists in the epics of predators. It is so because the hero isn't someone who is stronger than some enemy. Hero is someone who is the strongest among his group. He is unrivaled in what he does, thus the heroes of predators act alone"
>"An epic of Predator" by Leo Kaganov
Despite being Russian and well acquainted with the alien/predator fanbase there, I have never heard of this, quite interesting. Although I feel like the idea that aliens are absolute collectivists is slightly erroneous since they do have social heirarchies (Drone-> Warrior-> Praetoran-> Queen-> Empress).

That last bit about predator is really interesting though.
It's not just superheroes, but protagonists in general. In most contemporary western fiction, the antagonist is proactive and the protagonist is reactive or even outright reactionary. Protecting the status quo is the most common "heroic" motivation in popular media. Usually when you have a proactive protagonist, they're also a villain, like in Breaking Bad.
>Protecting the status quo is the most common "heroic" motivation in popular media.
That's more MODERN Western media. A lot of works I have read of Western film and literature have been protagonists who are NOT 'status quo'. For example Spartacus or Ben Hur or Huckleberry Finn etc. Obviously shit like Tom CLancy or James Bond is status Quo but that's more modern pop-culture.
>That's more MODERN Western media.
I said "contemporary western fiction." You're right there's plenty of history to the contrary.
>contemporary western fiction
Ah, well many 'leftists' tend to use "contemporary" to encompass the entire 20th century TBH.
>Most villains are ideologically leftist.
Now this is a hot take if I ever saw one. Mind expanding on that?
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A lot of the more nuanced villains of superhero stories are leftist or have some sort of leftist ideology.

- Joker, especially in the recent film, is essentially an example of when one of the working class shatters and goes nuts from the crush of capitalism essentially embodying the metaphysical alienation and urge to lash out and do SOMETHING caused by wage-slavery.
- MCU Whiplash was the result of a scientist being essentially thrown out to die after helping create the Arc Reactor and his son seeking vengeance and to gain what his fathers labor had rightfully deserved but was taken.
- Sandman from Spiderman 3. Guy was put in prison for what amounted to man slaughter after his need to support himself and his family drove him to crime.
- Eddy Brock (Venom) was just a photographer and journalist who ended up being in the wrong place(s) at the wrong time(s) and ended up jobless and with nowhere to go.
- Remont 4 or six depending on publication are literally ex-soviet supers who revolt against the de-sovietization of Russia and want to return the USSR to the days of Stalin.
- Garou from One Punch Man is ironically an idealist who sympathizes with monsters only because the concept of Heroes is so oppressing.
- Stain from My Hero Academia is a hero-killer who despises heroes because they're 'fake' pretending to be noble and instead just playing at being responsible for others.

The list goes on but you get my point
>The majority of super-heroes are ideologically incompatible with socialism. More villains are ideologically leftist.
Reckon that’s why always liked villains more.
Those characters got fucked over by capitalism or society but that isn't enough to consider them leftist (remember that even fascists claim to be against capitalism)
Plus you're only talking about their origins or what turned them into villains in the first place. Take the Joker for example, there's nothing leftist about crippling women or beating children to death.
>nothing leftist about crippling women or beating children to death.
Not what I said. His actions may not be leftist, but what he represents is ideologically. Even a reactionary character can be ideologically leftist because of their role in dialectical analysis. Joker is a representation of the working class under pressure, who are disorganized and want to get justice, instead lashing out at everyone and everything else BUT those responsible.
In common usage "contemporary" is just "from the same time [as us in this case]."
"Modern" encompasses as far back as 1500.

Villains are also more proactive and therefore more driven necessarily. Because they're not primarily a template to project yourself onto, they're more suitable for an interesting personality.
>they're not primarily a template to project yourself onto, they're more suitable for an interesting personality.
That's assuming a person has a disinteresting personality or can't relate to villains
I know, just pointing out the word's misuse by radlibs.
On the topic of Joker, the moment non-liberal leftists pointed out the semi-socialist ideas of the film, rightoids began clenching. Case in point - Joe Coon:
For the ones without an account or wanting to look at this site basically he liked the movie and how well it was made BUT, despite how he likes that it "triggers the libtards" it's totally not leftist
>THE "SOCIALIST" MESSAGE: CUT. THE. CRAP. this movie ain't pro socialism, or anti rich....BANE WAS A SOCIALIST ASSWIPE IN DARK KNIGHT RISES. there is no "LEFT WING" message in this movie, at all. it's simple. RICH PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS SEE NON RICH PEOPLE AS LESS, AND NON RICH PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS SEE RICH PEOPLE AS MONSTERS WITHOUT A SOUL. so. yeah....this movie is not anti rich nor pro poor propaganda....whoever says that....is so many kinds of wrong.
>Translation N-no! it's not pro-socialist, it just shows you that rich people are shit who look down on us and are deservedly disliked! You're just wrong *tide goes in and out*.
>That's assuming a person has a disinteresting personality or can't relate to villains
You're thinking too individuallistically. The characters are meant to be consumed by a wide audience. Making a character bland and generic is meant to make them relatable to as many people as possible.
>Making a character bland and generic is meant to make them relatable to as many people as possible.
that's just shit writing TBH. There are plenty of protagonists who are multifaceted and have appeal to different people without being flat and boring.
Yeah but the works those characters appear in weren't focus grouped to death and directed by passionless empty suits.
>focus grouped to death and directed by passionless empty suits.
Aye that's true, too many good film ideas castrated by this.
What does everyone here think of The Boys?

I read through the whole series this summer and the whole time I was conflicted, I liked some of the themes like corporate power is bad, government is corrupted by capital, power corrupts etc etc but I couldn't parse wtf Ennis was trying to say beyond that. Vasili was rad tho
10/10 would crack open a cold one with
Bretty good. 9/10.
Not quite capeshit but still relevant: Megatron from Tranformers: Prime (2011).
Season 1 and 2 of that show were great and Megatron in that show was one of the best depictions; intelligent, clever, powerful and with an imposing, yet sleek design.
More importantly however, he was expanded on as a character., becoming more than a stereotypical "I'm evil just because!" of the 80s. He was a former slaveesque miner who was thrown into gladiatorial fights in the pits of Kaon on cybertron. There his skill as a fighter led to triumph, becoming its champion. His popularity grew to the point where he rallied support from the citizens of Cyberton, using his charisma and oratory skill. He led them against the cybertronian council; corrupt and hierarchical, to demand change. However he was corrupted by the greed for power, and lacked political savviness unlike his upper-class Archivist protege Orion Pax, thus leading to a path of darkness and fascism as the latter became selected to be a Prime (becoming Optimus Prime). This lead to the civil war in which Optimus became leader of the Autobots (and where the old caste system was thrown away in the face of war), and becoming the new face of the people.

In other words, a people's hero had his path as a revolutionary turn to the darkness of fascism and his class-traitor protege became the new people's hero and revolutionary, quite similar to real life revolutions among humanity (something pointed out by the show).
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This is an ironic change since G1 Orion Pax was originally a dock-worker autobot (since autobots and decepticons are separate peoples for some reason). He idolized Megatron and the re-risen Decepticons as new and improved due to their ability to fly as well as also being able to transform like their autobot counterparts (because originally decepticons could not transform). Only to be revived as Optimus Prime when Megatron raided the energon warehouse he worked at.
Megatron meanwhile was essentially like the Nazis, intent on reviving the decepticon people and being rulers of cybertron, essentially mirroring fascist cries of 'reviving the greatness of the past'. Orion's infatuation was part of fascism's populism before reality showed the error in that belief.
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Like I said in the other thread, I'll be storytiming Batman War on Crime since I think it'll be cool to analyze it from a leftist perspective and beacause it's also pretty good.
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>>5004 btw the missing pages are just the left side and right side of double page spreads like page 4 here
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>>5015 The End. btw if you're Deng Gang don'tread Wonder Woman Spirit of Truth by the same artist. It's the Tiananmen Square copypasta in comic form
>>5016 >the Tiananmen Square copypasta in comic form Yikes
>>5016 This is pretty much an idealistic version of crime. It’s not a systemic problem but just something the rich can just deal with ease. His Superman story was no better, where good ol’ Supes think he could just play Green Peace and relief hunger and only Le Big Bad Dictator that “totally isn’t funded by the US of A”. It’s laughably liberal.
>>2628 Fuck Capeshit. The Watchmen stripped the genre of its pretension.
>>5082 Gotta disagree with you there, bro. Moore's intention with Watchmen wasn't to destroy and BTFO cape comics forever. No, he loved them. He just wanted to display why taking them overly seriously was absurd. However most people think he was eviscerating them and that comics need to be taken more seriously.
>>5082 >>5109 >Moore's intention with Watchmen wasn't to destroy and BTFO cape comics forever. No, he loved them. Pretty much this, dude's a radlib larping as an anarchist magician. Just read his pitch for twilight of the superheroes to see his "anti-capitalist" phase only happened after DC fucked him over with Watchmen. https://archive.org/stream/TwilightOfTheSuperheroes/TwilightOfTheSuperheroes_djvu.txt >It would provide a strong and resonant springboard from which to launch a number of new series or with which to revitalize old ones again in a manner that was not obviously crassly exploitative so as to insult the reader's intelligence. With an eye to the merchandising that Marvel managed to spin out of Secret Wars, I think it's safe to assume that if it were possible to credibly spin role playing games, toys, "Waiting for Twilight" posters and T-shirts and badges and all the rest of that stuff from the title, then that would be a good idea too. Ideally, it might even be possible, while appealing to the diehard superhero junkie, to produce a central story idea simple, powerful and resonant enough to bear translation to other media. I mean, I know that I'm probably still intoxicated by the Watchmen deal, but it never hurts to allow for these things as a possibility, does it?
>>5146 >tfw Alan Moore couldve blessed cape comics with his writing for a little bit longer
>MFW there is a Joker thread when this thread exists


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