/hobby/ - Hobbies

Entertainment, Education, Games, etc.

catalog
Mode: Reply
Name
E-mail
Subject
Message

Max message length: 8192

Files

Max file size: 20.00 MB

Max files: 3

Password

(used to delete files and postings)

Misc

Remember to follow the rules


Game Design Comrade 10/02/2019 (Wed) 02:04:33 No. 256
Aren't video games a most perfect realization of the spectacle? I fail to think of anything which has made a "concrete inversion of life" so effectively as video games. More than this it seems to exhaust all who play them of the tribulations of life there by converting them into the most significant population of last men to date. Recognizing this it follows that video games are only useful to the extent to which we can make games capable of waking their viewer to the theft of their life by the bourgeoisie, both in terms of surplus value extraction, and in terms of the spectacle.

It's entirely possible that many here could team up to make a game capable of waking its viewers to the theft of their life by the bourgeoisie, both in terms of surplus value extraction, and in terms of the spectacle. While making a quality 3D game is much more challenging it is possible to get good results with GPL engines as that screen shot shows. Even if nothing else it is a productive direction for leftists with this affliction to pursue, and on a personal level resist the spectacle and alienation.

Any ideas for plot or mechanics of a game of this sort?
What's wrong with video games?
>>401
>What's wrong with video games?
Honestly, I'd just encourage you to read The Society of the Spectacle by Guy Debord. It really is a excellent book and it's not very long. He defends his thesis far better than I could. The only thing I'm adding here is that video games are indeed part of the spectacle, and that this creates last men. Anyway, do you have any ideas for this game?

Apparently you can't post PDFs on this board but here is a download link from library genesis: http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=4E589BD7EBEE15B2E508ADD70C94AE16
(22.15 KB 330x439 8zwfqudmo.jpeg)
If you are going to make a open-source game than sublimate gameplay and content-creation. So the game is also the editing program to make the game.

The player should play a campaign where the mechanisms to edit the games are a sort of puzzle that has to be solved to progress in the story, the puzzles become progressively harder as they teach the player ever more advanced modes of game editing, both graphics and game mechanics.
>>400
>Aren't video games a most perfect realization of the spectacle?
The answer is of course NOPE since it's (still) easy to distinguish between them and the rest of the world. I don't mean distinction as in the gap between games and photorealism, but what activities in your life are part of playing this or that game and which are not.
>>405
https://everything2.com/?node=nomic
>>405
>The player should play a campaign where the mechanisms to edit the games are a sort of puzzle that has to be solved to progress in the story, the puzzles become progressively harder as they teach the player ever more advanced modes of game editing, both graphics and game mechanics.
I think that's a pretty interesting idea for gameplay.

>>406
>The answer is of course NOPE since it's (still) easy to distinguish between them and the rest of the world.
I think one of the most important parts of the spectacle is that it's not about what's in your life, as in you don't go to work interact with the same people etc. If you mean as in it's not effectively utilized to spread the message of the bourgeoisie like say a documentary, true-crime story, dystopia, the news, etc. then this is the case. I don't think the bourgeoisie have yet tapped the medium fully yet. This of course doesn't mean that it isn't the spectacle, or even the most perfect realization to date. I think the most fascinating thing about games is how the co-opt individuals action and not just their thoughts or their time, it's all on rails the most choice you get is the selection of different rails. Perhaps a important part of such a game would be a documenting of the full potential of games in this way.
>>405
>The player should play a campaign where the mechanisms to edit the games are a sort of puzzle that has to be solved to progress in the story, the puzzles become progressively harder as they teach the player ever more advanced modes of game editing, both graphics and game mechanics.
I think that's a pretty interesting idea for gameplay.

>>406
>The answer is of course NOPE since it's (still) easy to distinguish between them and the rest of the world.
I think one of the most important parts of the spectacle is that it's not about what's in your life, as in you don't go to work interact with the same people etc. If you mean as in it's not effectively utilized to spread the message of the bourgeoisie like say a documentary, true-crime story, dystopia, the news, etc. then this is the case. I don't think the bourgeoisie have yet tapped the medium fully yet. This of course doesn't mean that it isn't the spectacle, or even the most perfect realization to date. I think the most fascinating thing about games is how the co-opt individuals action and not just their thoughts or their time, it's all on rails the most choice you get is the selection of different rails. Perhaps a important part of such a game would be a documenting of the full potential of games in this way.
>>407
>If you mean as in it's not effectively utilized to spread the message of the bourgeoisie
I said nothing of that sort and very directly said what I meant to convey. You seem more interested in emulating what you imagine how intelligent people talk like than in having a genuine discussion. Update your home to the death barrier.
(40.12 KB 462x430 1564193255720.jpg)
> all entertainment that's not explicit communist propaganda is worthless
I guess everything past Battleship Potemkin is just bourgeois propaganda that nobody should engage with. Citizen Kane? It doesn't preach the supremacy of the CPSU, so it's as bad as Transformers, I guess.
>>409
>I said nothing of that sort and very directly said what I meant to convey.
I wasn't trying to be rude or anything, I just wasn't exactly what you meant by: "easy to distinguish between them and the rest of the world... what activities in your life are part of playing this or that game and which are not." I guess I was misreading but to me this could have meant like how the news isn't really distinguishable from the actions of society and ours lives, or just as in you don't go to work and talk to Stacy in video games and that sort of stuff.

>>410
>I guess everything past Battleship Potemkin is just bourgeois propaganda that nobody should engage with. Citizen Kane? It doesn't preach the supremacy of the CPSU, so it's as bad as Transformers, I guess.
It's not that it's propaganda that's the problem (although that is a problem) The spectacle actually includes left wing stuff as well, it's just used as a means to a end.
>>411
Oh, so it's not even just art that not explicit communist propaganda, it's all art without exception that's worthless? Great, bunkerchan tankies have now reached peak doctrinal purity and reject basic human needs as bourgeois. What next, drinking water decried as supporting porky?
>>413
>Oh, so it's not even just art that not explicit communist propaganda, it's all art without exception that's worthless? Great, bunkerchan tankies have now reached peak doctrinal purity and reject basic human needs as bourgeois. What next, drinking water decried as supporting porky?
The Situationists were opposed to "historically existing socialism", they aren't Tankies. I guess I can write out the Situationist Ideal, but I'm not going to do it justice, I'd encourage you to read their book linked earlier in the thread. They do value art, first of all, what they don't value is consumption of art. So in their ideal world everyone would be a painter but no one would go to art museums. They also support a sort of performance art where rather than being put on rails, or made a passive observer the individuals are given no objectives, no rails, and absolute freedom so long as their actions are within the law to play. They are free from the spectacle, and their life has been authentically realized.
>>414
So to support an autistic fantasy that will not be achieved within the foreseeable future, if ever, you rant against all forms of entertainment? Masturbation's a more productive activity, you know. At least once you're finished, your head clears from the lewd thoughts for a time. You tried that?
>>414
>>415
Okay, so my answer's too mean. I'm not actually calling the situationists autistic, but what you do in this thread is rant about how having fun is counter-revolutionary and should thus not be allowed. I mean, you do understand how stupid that sounds, right? I understand that you, like most communists, have defined your personality around the image of being a revolutionary, but you shouldn't let that dictate your every action as a person. Just relax. Let people be people. Good vibes and all that.
>>415
>So to support an autistic fantasy that will not be achieved within the foreseeable future, if ever, you rant against all forms of entertainment?
I was trying to do the exact opposite of what you're describing. I was hoping to encourage us towards some sort of creative action which results in the creation of entertainment, specifically a game.
>>417
How is your imagined game going to be different from all the other games that have been made? Because it's going to have an anti-spectacle message? Come on.
The only advice I can give you is stop trying to shoehorn ideology into your every action, word, and thought. It's healthier this way, and it'll make your life not as miserable.
(22.40 KB 235x375 Its_a_bore.jpg)
>>416
>I'm not actually calling the situationists autistic, but what you do in this thread is rant about how having fun is counter-revolutionary and should thus not be allowed.
Honest question, does >>414 not sound fun and enjoyable to you? It's just living life and being creative, and playing with your friends. They especially supported having long walks in the city with your friend, joking around and what not. They also enjoyed doing pranks like pick related.
>>418
>How is your imagined game going to be different from all the other games that have been made? Because it's going to have an anti-spectacle message? Come on.
Well yah, that's part of it. The Situationists did lots of similar things with their art work Debord even made a movie or two. I think with games you're in the unique position to change the mechanics of the game as well, so that by playing you're in some sort of authentically creative process. Honestly, I'm not really sure, that's why I made the thread. Like I said in the OP though, at the very least it would give us a nice creative activity to do.
>>419
The point is that bringing ideology into everything in counter-productive. There have already been quite a few games with a socialist message, and that they aren't well known should tell you all you need to know about the enterprise.
>>420
> The Situationists did lots of similar things with their art work
Did that bring about the revolution? Did it make a lasting impact among people who weren't already leftists? No? Then there you fucking go.
The superstructure is subservient to the base. You can't change that. No game, or film, or theatre play, or music album could possibly do that. So just relax and stop seeing ideology everywhere. You know how Miyazaki of Ghibli used to be a Marxist until he realised that it ruined his enjoyment of art, which led to him renouncing the ideology? You're going to end up the same way if you persist.
>>421
>The point is that bringing ideology into everything in counter-productive. There have already been quite a few games with a socialist message, and that they aren't well known should tell you all you need to know about the enterprise.
Perhaps there is something to be learned from their failure. I don't really think going full soviet aesthetic would be productive, if that's what these games were like. I think a lot of folks brains just stop thinking critically when they see that sort of stuff.

>Did that bring about the revolution? Did it make a lasting impact among people who weren't already leftists? No? Then there you fucking go.
Literally yes, they were a big part of the spark in May '68. They even had movie showings while it was happening. Also even if it didn't spark a revolution you can't dismiss a strategic category like attempting to effect the superstructure and the base simultaneously on the basis that one time a very specific attempt with certain local conditions and implementation decisions didn't work.
>>422
> Perhaps there is something to be learned from their failure.
The only lesson there could be is that you can't convert people to socialism by making art. Base > superstructure. Period.
> attempting to effect the superstructure and the base simultaneously
You know how you affect the superstructure and the base simultaneously? By controlling the base. The superstructure takes care of itself from that point on. You cannot affect the base by affecting the superstructure. You. Can. Not. All I'm doing in this thread is try to stop you from wasting your effort and becoming bitter, why can't you accept my help?
(186.40 KB 1680x1646 Base-superstructure_Dialectic.png)
>>423
>The only lesson there could be is that you can't convert people to socialism by making art. Base > superstructure. Period.
That's not even true, they shape one another. Also I just told you that the Situationist were part of the spark of May '68 which is well documented, so this is fundamentally not true.

>You know how you affect the superstructure and the base simultaneously? By controlling the base. The superstructure takes care of itself from that point on. You cannot affect the base by affecting the superstructure. You. Can. Not.
This just isn't true in the least

>All I'm doing in this thread is try to stop you from wasting your effort and becoming bitter, why can't you accept my help?
I keep refuting your arguments and you keep moving the goal post or moving to a different argument.
>>424
> they shape one another
To a greatly unequal degree. That you can't deny.
> the Situationist were part of the spark of May '68
May '68 happened because the base was present, and it wasn't enough. You won't spark a revolution by making a game, this is a fact that you have to accept if you don't want to end up disappointed.
> I keep refuting your arguments
Oh, you think that this is an argument. It isn't. I'm just trying to help you to avoid becoming bitter. That's it. The sooner you stop believing in miracles, the sooner you'll stop getting disappointed all the time.
>>425
>To a greatly unequal degree. That you can't deny.
Yes of course but that wasn't your argument.

>May '68 happened because the base was present, and it wasn't enough. You won't spark a revolution by making a game, this is a fact that you have to accept if you don't want to end up disappointed.
This is absolutely correct, and I never tried to argue otherwise hence the word spark but it can advance the movement both in terms of recruitment and in terms of waking people to active participation in their life even if only a little.

>Oh, you think that this is an argument. It isn't. I'm just trying to help you to avoid becoming bitter. That's it. The sooner you stop believing in miracles, the sooner you'll stop getting disappointed all the time.
In that case I keep refuting your helpful advice. I have a pretty realistic disposition, I don't think that a video game is going to start a revolution, but I think working on the superstructure can benefit the movement. I also think that their are a number of people who do nothing for the movement due to their social disposition, or just their interests and that this would be a good channel for those sorts of people. If you're actually only trying to prevent me from being disappointed, rather than calling The Situationists autistic or something similar then feel free to stop here.
>>426
> it can advance the movement both in terms of recruitment and in terms of waking people to active participation in their life even if only a little
Name me a game with a socialist message that influenced you. Even just one. The fact that you can't do it says everything about the potential of your hypothetical game. You'd do better with your time if you volunteered at some social service. That way you'd actually help people and see the results of your activity with your own two eyes.
>>427
I guess you decided that it was a argument then, and that you need to continue.

>Name me a game with a socialist message that influenced you. Even just one. The fact that you can't do it says everything about the potential of your hypothetical game.
I don't play games, but to quote myself from a few moments ago, because it's still relevant in response to if the Situationists started a revolution: "Literally yes, they were a big part of the spark in May '68. They even had movie showings while it was happening. Also even if it didn't spark a revolution you can't dismiss a strategic category like attempting to effect the superstructure and the base simultaneously on the basis that one time a very specific attempt with certain local conditions and implementation decisions didn't work."

>You'd do better with your time if you volunteered at some social service. That way you'd actually help people and see the results of your activity with your own two eyes.
I agree, but I don't think that everyone is going to do this.
>>428
>You'd do better with your time if you volunteered at some social service. That way you'd actually help people and see the results of your activity with your own two eyes.
>I agree, but I don't think that everyone is going to do this.
I kinda zoned out while reading this post honestly, I don't think social services contribute to the revolution even though they do help people. I kinda assumed you were going to say something about organizing. This isn't really relevant to the thread though.
>>428
> I don't play games
And yet you want to make one.
You're very sophisticated when it comes to analysing art, and yet it hasn't occurred to you that it takes a gamer to make a game, just like it takes a movie buff to make a movie. Interesting. (Not really.)
> the Situationists
Mentioning them does not make you one of them.
I understand. I went through that phase too. I also wanted to be like the people I read about, but then I grew up. It just won't lead to your own personal happiness, you know what I'm saying?
> I don't think that everyone is going to do this.
Who gives a shit about "everyone"? I'm talking to you. You can help others by volunteering. Do that. Don't entertain the idea of making a game with an anti-spectacle message that will light the spark or whatever, go to sleep today and volunteer at a shelter tomorrow the first thing after work. That will give you more satisfaction from your free time activity than any attempt at making a work in an art form that you aren't interested in possibly could.
>>429
> I don't think social services contribute to the revolution
Not everything has to be about revolution. That's the sole point that I was trying to make this entire time. You don't have to spend your every waking moment labouring for the sake of the revolution that might or might not happen within your lifetime. Participate in union activities, talk with people about socialism, sure, but don't make it the cornerstone of your identity or life. Just learn to enjoy life.
>>430
>You're very sophisticated when it comes to analysing art, and yet it hasn't occurred to you that it takes a gamer to make a game, just like it takes a movie buff to make a movie. Interesting. (Not really.)
I'm a programmer, I decided to ask >>>/e/ for information on game design which they presumably knew more about in hopes of organizing a communal effort.

>>431
>Not everything has to be about revolution. That's the sole point that I was trying to make this entire time. You don't have to spend your every waking moment labouring for the sake of the revolution that might or might not happen within your lifetime.
If your sole interests is in having a personal therapy session for someone you don't know the slightest thing about to turn me into a last man, I'm not interested. Unless you have some sort of productive comment on this project I will no longer respond to your replies.
>>432
> to turn me into a last man
Jesus fucking Christ. I give up. All I ask for is that you remember me in three years' time, when you remember how you were right now and experience terrible pangs of embarrassment and regret. Just remember that there was someone who told you that it would happen.
Okay, well now that that's over is there anything else other than: >>405 as far as mechanics or plot for this game. Also I've got a bit of work to do so not grantees I'll be able to respond quickly.
>>428
>I don't play games
Give up then.
I don't get why people who are not interested in playing games want to be part of it's design.
>>434
If you have any sort of plot idea, ask yourself: Wouldn't this work out better in a comic or written story or movie? The answer is almost always yes. So as long as you don't have an idea for a message told through game mechanics, you shouldn't bother. The stuff in good games that somewhat resembles story telling in movies is only built on top of mechanics. Mechanics first. "Story" in a game is usually a not entirely coherent hodgepodge of metaphors thrown together to communicate mechanics. Where mechanics and story/realism get into conflict, mechanics usually have priority.

The topic is capitalism, the relevant game mechanic is the prisoner's dilemma. Now go build something around that.
>>443
>Give up then. I don't get why people who are not interested in playing games want to be part of it's design.
I didn't really as I said I'm a programmer, I simply going to help individuals here who would presumably have a idea of a game that might implement the type of thing I was describing. I was really only interested in the project at all because as I mentioned I thought it might encourage individuals who traditionally don't contribute to the movement to do so. Considering the only response has been >>405 excluding the bad actor and based on some past experiences I guess I should at this point assume that organizing collective action over a imageboard is not viable. Perhaps if I had a more definitive plan and a repo I could recruit developers, testers, and designers from here, but I have my doubts. I could do this on my own by I have plans for other actions which might be more impactful.

>>445
>So as long as you don't have an idea for a message told through game mechanics, you shouldn't bother. The stuff in good games that somewhat resembles story telling in movies is only built on top of mechanics. Mechanics first. "Story" in a game is usually a not entirely coherent hodgepodge of metaphors thrown together to communicate mechanics. Where mechanics and story/realism get into conflict, mechanics usually have priority.
Why not just have great mechanics and a great story, and have them not interfere with one another. It doesn't sound unreasonable.

>The topic is capitalism, the relevant game mechanic is the prisoner's dilemma. Now go build something around that.
Maybe it's just me but the prisoners dilemma seems a bit too simplistic to be a solid mechanic for a game. Also I'm not sure in what way it would inspire a critique of capitalism.
>>448
Again, you have never played a game. Why do you want to make games?
You remind me of that Russian joke, where a guy wanted to become a writer, despite not being able to read.
>>454
>Again, you have never played a game. Why do you want to make games?
see:
>>448
>I didn't really as I said I'm a programmer, I simply going to help individuals here who would presumably have a idea of a game that might implement the type of thing I was describing. I was really only interested in the project at all because as I mentioned I thought it might encourage individuals who traditionally don't contribute to the movement to do so.
>>259 That could be an interesting idea, It could work for a puzzle game where you encourage players to create puzzles for other players to solve , and you could have achievements for both creating and solving puzzles.
>>258 Debord also wanted to abolish cinema and university and he finally killed himself. So I would suggest to also be critical of Debord and criticized movies and video games industries in capitalism rather than themselves.
>>256 >It's entirely possible that many here could team up to make a game capable of waking its viewers to the theft of their life by the bourgeoisie, both in terms of surplus value extraction, and in terms of the spectacle. >Any ideas for plot or mechanics of a game of this sort? Just make a simulation game where you run a business. Show how wages are bounded by minimum needed to reproduce labor power and maximum of what products sell for.
>>274 I think the best way to promote socialism through the medium of games is to have games set in fictional worlds where socialism is just the way things are done and you are writing games that have socialism in the world , but the game is not primarily about socialism. You could have a RPG where the country the game is set in is socialist , but the player is a monster hunter or something like that. The player will interact with a socialist society in the quest hub and there might be plenty of lore and background fluff that serves to subtly educate the player about socialism, but the main focus of the game should be on making it a fun RPG. I dislike games that are preachy obvious political soapboxes , and I thing that this method would be far more effective.
>>5543 >monster hunter >hunter/gatherer societies >socialism
I'm attempting to make a (og) fallout like role playing game in godot myself. Not sure if anyone cares but just wanted to share that story, since it's kinda relevant. >It's entirely possible that many here could team up to make a game capable of waking its viewers to the theft of their life by the bourgeoisie. Anyone actually interested? I'll happily volunteer
>>280 >Name me a game with a socialist message that influenced you. (Not OP here) While I can't name any socialist game. After getting into the assassin's creed games as a 12 year old I did end up reading quite a bit about the actual assassins and that time period. There's a wide audience for videogames out there so I still think it can be useful to spread our cause through them. It's probably more useful to have leftist content creators and reviewers tho.
>>5543 >fictional worlds where socialism is just the way things are done If you want to do such a thing you might as well do a Star Trek game or some scifi setting akin to it where markets and such have been removed completely from society. On an rpg type game a setting similar to the Noon universe could work. Basically in this world a DoP has already been globally established and your mission is pretty much similar to an agent provocateur promoting socialist revolution in alien worlds. Also there’s nothing wrong with making a game politically laden, /v/ fucking love Disco Elysium (and only pretend to hate it when /pol/tards began to shit up the place) as long as the gameplay is solid with a decent story. Hell games like the Outer Worlds or New Vegas have plenty of anti-capitalist messages although lacking any proper way out of it (every faction being either libertarian retards or fascist villains). I always wanted to make a spiritual sequel to Arcanum. With the protagonist being another Living One coming back to the world during a communist revolution (which we already seen with some side quests in the first game). The world has been through 50 years since the first game and magic being properly incorporated into the industrial infrastructure. Your main quest only concern the fact that one of the olygarchs is trying to harvest one of the old gods to crush to revolution. In short, The Iron Heel but with magic.
>>5860 >Basically in this world a DoP has already been globally established and your mission is pretty much similar to an agent provocateur promoting socialist revolution in alien worlds Looks like The Culture book series by Iain Banks.
>>5848 Oi what game dev skills you got. I'm a 3D modeler with about two years of training.
>>6133 great for you, that's the only thing I'm struggling with right now
>>6140 We should join up then, 3D art is sole specialization and I'm pretty comfortable with it, I've even imported my stuff to Godot before.
>>6143 that would be great, didn't expect you to be actually interested. Just to be more specific, I'm stuck with animations, if you're really interested share your discord tag
>>6207 Anarcho-Monarchist#4757 I don't have much practice with animation, but I know the tools and have done it before.
/v/ is now the roulette board, please go there for your video game related discussions. >>>/roulette/
>>264 Welcome to this retarded website

Delete
Report

no cookies?