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Just continuing a conversation from /leftytrash/ Comrade 03/01/2020 (Sun) 13:45:09 No. 4314
I know that some people don't like the metafagging in /leftytrash/ so I made this thread to have a conversation. So anon what are your general problems with the /leftypol/ moderation?
>>4314 Well if you want a general overview: the decision to crack down on the idpol gulag came far too late and didn't even feel like it happened because of popular user will but because incels shat up the place so much that they couldn't be ignored anymore, having a shitposting campaign that lasted a whole fucking day and spanning like 3 different threads. while its' a past issue now it just illustrates how little the idea of user input really factors into mod decisions at worst, or how disconnected from user grievances the moderation team is at best, which has been the general feeling of moderation since old BO went off the rocker and killed the place. whenever you have a hierarchy meant to be a defending force to the community, you need a common basis of trust between your moderators and your posters. normally mods don't post with names or flags on, so you can't go by a by-name basis for trust, so instead the whole board relates to moderation as an amorphous construct (before you say the IRC, nobody goes there, and if they do have to go to an IRC to talk to moderation thats already a failure of the system imho). So whenever you have a blunder, whenever there is perceived inaction against shitposting, whenever there is a vote backed by popular will that gets shot down by moderation, ect, it is seen as an action of all of the moderation team even if the blame should be shouldered by a few people. it's not really fair but that is the system we have now - and generally this has lead to all the factions in leftypol having specific grievances against what is probably a few moderators but since the only way they can relate to moderation is moderation as an amorphous blob, they plaster their dislike over all the mods. this ends up having literally about everyone disliking the moderation as a force for their own specific reasons, which in turn erodes any perception of moderation acting with any kind of popular support, which makes the entire mod team seem more like tyrants than community managers. this will always fundamentally be an issue as long as the moderation team doesn't retool how it presents itself and its actions to the wider community, and without fixing it up you'll always have an aura of illegitimacy to all the actions you take - unless, somehow, you please enough factions so the majority of posters have less gripes than they have praise, which has happened about never from what I've seen. on top of that the whole "captain steering the ship" narrative only works if we know where the fuck the ship is going, and really nobody knows where the ship is heading. now that we have our own site, we've never really solidified a mission objective like we had back on 8chan, which was simple: convert reactionaries via application of semi-vulgarized left theory and slowly integrate them into a left viewpoint through increasing community exposure. now that broke down for a lot of reasons before we even made the move, from the decline in numbers of actual leftists with the old BO boogaloo to the reactionaries in question becoming more and more radicalized to the right for increasingly amaterial and fundamentally incoherent reasons - as one anon put it, prioritizing the idea of the society over the methods of achieving it, making the praxis the afterthought to the goal, which continually moves the fash in a direction that makes their worldview unfalsifiable because it is fundamentally ephemeral ideologically, instead becoming this societal leech that just enables the worst excesses of liberal capitalism, all of this compounding into them being the dumbest and most bellicose of reactionaries that are unable to be reasoned with, /pol/ digging itself deeper into the hole with more and more mass-shootings, and other shit, but we've never really created a new, community wide overarching goal. are we going to be a raiding force to try to reclaim other chans from righties? are we going to focus on internal affairs and retool bunkerchan to be a real alternative to, say, 4chan for lefties? are we going to make hobby boards that aren't strictly leftist and aim for a big-tent strategy and allow for /leftypol/ to be a natural factor for radicalization for people who originally just came for a /v/ without /pol/ or something of the sort? are we going to go for a culture-orientated approach where we make a lot of OC that gets spread to other left spaces, promoting our own video makers, ect to slowly push the online left into a favorable position and equip them with the tools to articulate left theory and action? I mean, we have a little bit of all of this I suppose, but it's nearly all user action. there isn't a real "goal" towards what we are doing, it's more like we're just fucking milling around and shitposting rather than making any real gains, and the most praxis that occurs here is fucking news anon (tybna). a kind of cohesive goal to work towards means less factionalism BS and more community coordination and cooperation, having something meaningful to do with their spare time online.
>>4315 then to get into the petty and nitty-gritty stuff recently there has been a bit of a perception of the moderation having a faster trigger finger when it comes to comrades than they do against reactionaries and spammers, having more checks in place to limit our expression than all the gulag-bait that wanders in to shit up the place. it's not the best of looks especially when you have spammers run lose for 3 hours at a time with no recourse, and don't even put in a token effort to fluster them, like a word filter or something. especially around election seasons. not only has /usapol/ been fucked by spamming, but /leftybritpol/ was during their big election cycle as well, and I'm sure even the slower general threads have it worse since they only have like 10 dedicated posters at the best of times to fight them off. during the whole incel debacle, there was the retarded front pushed by the moderation which was basically "either incels or no idpol at all" when like, most everyone just wanted no incels and would have otherwise been fine with the idpol gulag remaining as-was. and now with talk of bringing the idpol gulag back anyways, what was the fucking point of it all? you don't exactly need a phd to identify the incels, they run about calling everyone sex pests and whining about their lack of state mandated gfs all the time so you can easily snipe them out of a crowd. what is the mod policy on this shit even born out of? is there internal conflict on how to proceed with this? why is this supposed vanguard structure's methods, motivations, and actions shadowed in a thick fog to the people who they are supposed to be acting to the benefit of? more generally, the policy on the tone and content of the board seems farcical. we have a sfw board where there is a spoiler tag? nsfw content is banned for people at work when the body politics being discussed is enough to land you in front of HUAC? are we supposed to be sticking to our chan-era roots, taking a reformist angle and becoming more pan-leftist, or fucking what? it's not like politics is very sfw to begin with, /pol/ is exemplary of how sexuality is heavily tied into politics, and we're basically just limiting our ways of criticizing this fact by being sfw for no tangible reason beyond "mods said so" when nobody has a lick of respect for the mods. I can go on but the jist of it is that there just isn't really a basis of trust between the wider community and the moderation. I don't think I stand alone on this one, and its really not even an issue of policy or pragmatism or anything like that more than it is really an issue of communication and lack of meaningful vision. it's why I compare the new management to Gorbachev so often - it really feels like we're just in this void of not knowing what the fuck is happening with the leadership, a silent dread of whether we're going to slowly decline to nothing from no prerogative, left to fend ourselves against an ever-stronger enemy front, or that a moderation infighting fest just ends up collapsing the site without us even knowing what was happening until it is too late.
>>4315 >>4316 thanks for the effort post anon, hope that the jannies see it
oh, and bonus round, roulette the best thing that came out of that place was a catgirl. it was a compromise that nobody wanted and didn't even make sense contextually to where most of the membership came from or what they even wanted from their own board. we came from 8chan, where boards with like 20-30 people who just had their own little board to talk on was common and perfectly fine, and that was what people more or less wanted back. hell, thats what fucking /GET/ was until the interjection of /leftytrash/ moving in which increased its usercount, but it is still fundamentally still a small community where people know each other pretty well even though they are anonymously posting. the roulette doesn't even make sense because its asking those users to create something they didn't envision or likely even want in a fast board, only gives them a short amount of time to do it (basically precluding any kind of board culture from emerging), and then deleting any attempt they would have made in the meantime when the time is up. imho you should've just had the good decency to tell them to fuck off to >>>/hobby/ , the current roulette board is /his/ (when the fuck did it rotate?) and I fucking made /his/ my stomping grounds back when I still posted on 4chan, and I don't feel an iota of a reason to even try to post on there cause it'll all just go away when it inevitably doesn't meet the standards.
>>4319 >when the fuck did it rotate? Two days ago. >it'll all just go away when it inevitably doesn't meet the standards. considering that /tech/ is back their standards aren't really that high. /roulette/ isn't perfect but it's still better than having no way to add boards. Although I do agree that the mods do have some retarded ideas when it comes to the standard of boards on this site. I remember when they deleted /tech/ and /dead/ and they gave these two reasons: >Inactive boards is a bad look for the site Which is retarded because when people come to this site they most likely won't even interact with those slow boards any way. So who cares? >people who don't use those boards are fine with deleting them. The average poster probably didn't think about this for more than five minutes and it basically doesn't affect them. So why would this be a valid reason?
>>4315 10/10 post. Really hope everyone takes this to heart, mods and posters both. I've spent a lot of time in my life mindlessly doing hotpocket and admin shit on other websites. Seeing how this site is turning out has caused me to re-evaluate much of my hotpocket philosophy and personal history. I may have been a really shit mod in other places. What anon is saying here could have saved me and all the users of the communities I've been in a lot of grief.
>>4315 >>4316 >>4318 vol here. Thanks for the feedback. It's very unfortuante that you feel no trust in the mod team. We do take user input, it's very hard to gauge what the general user sentiment is because there are conflicting opinions. But we read them and discuss them. I try not to use my mod name because users sometimes use it as an excuse to gather a lynchmob and I'm not looking for popularity either, I would hate having people who approve of me because that would go to my head, or to lynch me for no reason, which has happened before (wreckers probably, but it's not nice). For now, I think of myself as a user who has mod powers and can lobby the rest of the mod team. I hope you understand this and approve of it. The reintroduction of the idpol gulag was because I read user feedback and I moderate the board, and it is clear to me that people want to discuss these topics. Perhaps I'm biased though. The experimental idpol gulag thread I made was deleted because it didn't go through the proper channels. It's kind of annoying to have to wait a week or so to experiment with new ideas. The proposal has been voted to pass and will hopefully pass in 3-4 days. If you were present perhaps you saw it, I asked for feedback in the mod thread on the experiment. I recieved some feedback, more than I expected, less than I wanted. I presented the new, hopefully improved experiment to the mods. We aren't an amorphous blob, we are users and many times disagree on how things should be run. It is through feedback and discussion that new things are tried out, including the new idpol gulag experiment. On /hobby/, that was also an experiment of sorts for me as a mod, other mods had their own reasons to approve of /hobby/, including the ones mentioned above. /tech/ was slow and I believed we could have a better /tech/ as part of a more active board, namely /hobby/. After several months of /hobby/ being up, I've changed my stance and now think that /tech/ should have it's own board, it will be slow, and that's fine. /hobby/ has been a relatively active board, and I hope that activity somehow crosses over to the new /tech/ board. If it doesn't, thats fine too. On the spam situation, there are gaps in timezones where no mods are present. All of us are employed too, so that also cuts into our available hours. We're also users, as such, certain threads attract more attention to us than others. I'm personally not aware of british politics, so I rarely go there. Yesterday, I had to really go out of my way to delete the NCT spam in the usa pol thread because no other mods seemed to be available. In a similar situation, I would've slept and not have seen it, leaving it up for even more time. There's also the fact that users don't refresh the threads they are on, so they don't see the mod actions, they keep seeing the spam there and assume no mod action has been taken. I hope I have shed some light on how at least I use my mod status to try to improve the board. I'm not a genius, so I know I make mistakes. Again, sorry to hear you're dissatisfied with the mods, I'd encourage you to apply for volunteer whenever we hold those again, and to keep making these pamphlets that are critical of our actions.
It takes them 48+ hours to enter in a /tech/ hyperlink on the bunkerchan.xyz panel.
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>>4316 The issue with the incels, reactionaries, really any one acting nefariously is once you start cracking down on the obvious ones then they retreat into being more nebulous and vague. Sometimes it's blatantly obvious that something needs to happen but who exactly it needs to happen too and how is not so clear cut. To be honest, though, there are times when I am at work and unable to log onto my account and I see things going out of control and no one stepping in to do anything and I just simply have to throw my hands up at times. I, as one person, can only do so much to stop idpol, reactionaries, liberal faggots, and general trolls and flamers from just shitting everything up. I don't know if this is because everyone resides on one time zone or we still don't have enough mods or what is really going on. >>4318 This post is just too defeatist. /tech/ passed. The only thing I can really say here is, well, pay attention. The metrics that were set aren't even that high. Just roughly about 300 or so posts in the span of a month. If a month isn't long enough then I don't really know how far you want us to take it. >>4324 Well only one person can do it and that is space. We have the changes we have to just wait on space to push it through. It's very easy to talk about things you don't really understand. I am not saying that to be snarky, I am just saying, some times try and think of it from our perspectives. We are working with what we have. I can't speak for everyone, but, I like to think we are all communists here and all want the same thing and, intern, want the site to grow and develop in a healthy and prosperous way that, maybe, might even have some real influence on the cancerous landscape of the modern internet. We aren't your enemies. At least I am not, everything I do is to try and establish the best possible outcomes we can muster for the site.
Edited last time by comatoast on 03/01/2020 (Sun) 18:44:34.
>>4325 >Well only one person can do it and that is space. Then yell at him a bit. Is he temporarily paralyzed or what? >I can't speak for everyone, but, I like to think we are all communists here and [...] >We aren't your enemies [...] I know dude geez calm down. I'm just a bit salty, as this seems to be a recurring theme. I'm implying that the mods and admins seem to be doing 99% of the work and Space_ seems to be passing out on opium binges in brothels in southeast Asia, as opposed to checking in on his site every two, four or twenty days. You tell me - how long has it been since he's helped you guys out here? He never posts seemingly so can you blame me for finding the situation a bit atypical? This is not normal in chan spaces (with "root"/admins usually making public announcements, freely chatting, and so on). Are you saying site development wouldn't be improved if we had more of a NNTPchan type site structure? I remember that being a consensus back in the day too (before the migration). A public donation page for upkeep and an NNTP federation with added .onion and .i2p addresses would be ideal and you know it. I posted flags three (3) times over (each time I waited patiently for them to inevitably slide off the cyclical) and no Space_ were ever to be found replying to anything in the thread, only the people's heros like you and your rank-and-file comrades, Comatoast. You poor fucks run this site by yourselves and it's time you admit this to yourselves. Space_ needs to be overthrown for incompetency, OH I'M SAYING IT!! (/s jk <- double negative).
>>4326 I believe he was not near his desktop last I talked to him. He, like all of us, have our lives man. I don't want to blow up his shit over the bunker. Sorry. Space helps us out by giving us a place to host the site. I agree, that things are not, necessarily, optimal as the way things are going, but, from my experiences with the site so far most of what needs to be done can be done by the admins or mods. There are certain things like tor and i2p that I have contentiously pushed for and still do push for, but, it's not that easy. Hell i'm sure some one could spin up a mirror or the site that's an onion if the gridlock becomes too much on that end. I really do apologize for it, but, my hands are just tied. I have asked repeatedly for hidden services and allowing exit nodes and it just hasn't happened yet. Everyone of us are aware of the proposition, though.
>>4327 Forgot my gay ass trips.
>>4326 Also, FYI: In my experience with image-boards it is the other-way around. Posting with mods flags and admin tags, etc, is not common practice and is shunned in most instances. As for the flags, sorry, man. I don't think any one wants more flags. Most people I have seen barely want the ones we have now. People use them to construct identities. We just refuse to remove them because they are part of our culture since the dawn of leftypol.
nothing better to do so may as well >>4322 >vol here. Thanks for the feedback. It's very unfortuante that you feel no trust in the mod team. I should specify I trust the vols a bit more than the mods because they are more "connected" to the broader board politics than the mods feel to be, and seem to do most of the legwork besides. >We do take user input, it's very hard to gauge what the general user sentiment is because there are conflicting opinions. But we read them and discuss them. That would be news to literally everyone tbh, even on this pyongyang issue we were never informed of the nature or severity of it until it was thankfully leaked, with the best we got as a warning beforehand a spoopy-ass warning to have the bunker onhand. Meanwhile /GET/ had publically talked about the issue with its userbase and warned them that there was a rogue mod issuing and lifting bans without any mandate from the existing structures of power like, a week or two before /leftypol/ mods were practically forced to acknowledge it. What gain was there in suppressing this information of an actual, imminent threat to site security and the affairs of the board? What was the contingency going to be if space decided to nuke the site, or pyongyang went on a spree of deleting threads? we were basically allowed to be sheep free for the slaughter by being wholly uninformed of what was happening internally to no tangible end. >I'd encourage you to apply for volunteer TBH I think I already know in what direction that will go. There are simply a few mods who hold views that are not only contradictory, but irreconcilable with the political body of myself, but also likely a good deal of the userbase. The problems of the ideological gap between different users - and especially moderators, always ensures that any left unity is tenuous, because as always there is no real communication between moderation and the wider community. Trust is something that is earned through open and equal communication between people, and with the current state of things there isn't any communication, any mediation, or really any solidarity between moderation and the userbase. All left ideologies, from meme-tier egoists to ancoms to MLs and more, emphasize the important of organization and communication not just in the actions of a party-structure, but in all left action as a function of solidarity between proletariat. As-is, we fail at the first hurdle in being an effective left community.
>>4325 >The issue with the incels, reactionaries, really any one acting nefariously is once you start cracking down on the obvious ones then they retreat into being more nebulous and vague. Then it is better to allow for the community to counter the reactionaries than to allow them to go around freely. Right now the moderation still follows an ML-style organization as was mandated by the old BO, except without an actual party line to enforce on the underlying "party members" in the posters. So you have a lot of cases of mods deleting one post or another over an offense they take to the post which gets lifted by another mod when they check over the appeal, which just leaves the impression of nobody knowing what they are doing. you either need to adopt a cohesive line and publish it for the wider posting group to see so as to enforce an actual policy over the board or you need to rapidly democratize the moderation powers to more and more vols who can act as a check against each other, where enough of the common poster is present as moderation so as to better reflect the community values in the moderation enforcement. this wishy-washy center we have right now is just barely operable when it is needed. >I don't know if this is because everyone resides on one time zone or we still don't have enough mods or what is really going on. No offense but you need to audit yourselves and see who is doing what when and get an idea of time coverages. do you all even have a central authority figure to conduct anything? >This post is just too defeatist This is fair, I was retarded and uninformed.
>>4322 >>4325 You're not listening. That poster also touched on some things I've been saying for a while now. But those are the things you don't respond to. All you talk about is your moderation style, how you do this, how you do that, how you ban incels, no one cares about your individual perspective, you liberals. We're talking about systemic issues with the running of the site. This site would not improve even if we got the best, kindest mods ever that still didn't listen to user input. How do you not understand this? Which part of "more democratic decision-making" are you struggling with? >>4315 >we've never really created a new, community wide overarching goal >>4316 >are we supposed to be sticking to our chan-era roots, taking a reformist angle and becoming more pan-leftist, or fucking what? Exactly what I had said in the /leftypol/ mod thread, Comatoast's answer was that /leftypol/ is everything at once. >>4316 >recently there has been a bit of a perception of the moderation having a faster trigger finger when it comes to comrades than they do against reactionaries and spammers again, something I've said. It's really easy to see a person's post history, isn't it? You can literally tell if the person is a leftist or what their motivations are, but you seem to just judge in the moment. Do you not understand how to a /pol/ tourist that doesn't matter (because, among other things, they expect that response) but to someone who has been on /leftypol/ for a long time it gets annoying as fuck. >>4315 >this ends up having literally about everyone disliking the moderation as a force for their own specific reasons, which in turn erodes any perception of moderation acting with any kind of popular support, which makes the entire mod team seem more like tyrants than community managers Again, something I've written about. You don't involve the user base enough. You had an opportunity to run a poll for the roulette board, you couldn't even do that. If you want the users to trust you more then you have to trust the users and not assume that every poster is a wrecker in disguise.

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